Talk:Eva Kaili

Fair use rationale for Image:Kaili 024.JPG

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BetacommandBot 00:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Arrest and corruption

I see this as potential something that may become a large part of this article relating to her arrest. I’m opening this thread to discuss any up dates beyond the first 24hrs. For the time being I think we should maintain the facts as they are reported from the initial arrest until thing become clearer. Jo Jc Jo (talk) 01:55, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Two days into the developing scandal, I think it has become significant enough to deserve at least a couple of sentences in the header, with due mention of course that it is an on-going development and that things might change. 90.112.72.149 (talk) 21:14, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Weasel wording

The expression a video resurfaced implies that it was suppressed, or somehow inaccessible to the general public. Which is not true, it's a speech at the plenary of th European Parliament, and widely reported on Greek media right away. paa (talk) 07:45, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

@Paa: I’ve updated the language and hope there’s WP:CON. Please tag me if further discussed. I’d be interested to follow. Jo Jc Jo (talk) 10:10, 10 December 2022 (UTC) Jo Jc Jo (talk) 10:10, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Corruption context

Kaili was advising Bankera, a failed 9-figure Lithuanian cryptocurrency ICO in 2017-18 together with Antanas Guoga, an Australian poker player cum Lithuanian MEP. Bankera also was involved with an American "fintech entrepreneur" who has been arrested in the USA and with an Australian ICO promoter (securities broker-dealer) that ran into legal troubles there. Following the ICO Bankera bought a bank in Vanuatu from a Lithuanian company (Lewben) connected with sanctioned Russian and Belarusian individuals. What I am saying is that Kaili's arrest is just a culmination of a long story. I'll try to gather references over the weekend. Anybody want to look into this as well? Elmenhorster (talk) 09:12, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Lon Wong, founder of NEM (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEM_(Kryptow%C3%A4hrung) was also involved. It would be strange not to have a Chinese crypto entrepreneur on a project like this. Elmenhorster (talk) 09:30, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Clarification: the ICO was successful (one of the 10 largest ever); it failed to deliver almost everything it promised in its investment prospectus, leading to ~100% losses to retail investors. The investment opportunity was unregulated. Bankera was fined 9-figures by Bank of Lithuania, the Lithuanian regulator, but decision was reversed in court on appeal. Elmenhorster (talk) 10:16, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

@Elmenhorster: I would be careful to see any other allegations as context to the corruption leading to arrest and tread carefully around linking any previous incidents with this one without a very reliable source doing so. Remember WP:NOR. Especially as this is a WP:LIVE, requiring extra care to be taken.

If other allegations can be found with reliable sources then I would say it can be added but with clarity around the fact that she was not charged/ acquitted/ innocent (whatever the case maybe) and also try to find a response from her to those allegations inline with WP:NPOV.

My suggestion would be that any addition surrounding this should be done in draft and hidden until we have WP:CON in this thread.

Happy to help on this. Jo Jc Jo (talk) 10:28, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Context (Varoufakis)

The following is a context reference that may lead us to some interesting juxtapositions as the corruption story develops. I checked where Kaili stood on the key Greek issue of the last decade: https://www.evakaili.gr/en/varoufakis-departure-is-positive-for-talks/ Gives food for thought. Elmenhorster (talk) 09:35, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Profession

Ive added Kaili’s CV to the references and updated the article accordingly:

I’ve removed Architect from her profession in the info box. According to her CV, Kaili studied a bachelors in civil engineering and architecture and no further studies in the field. She has no professional experience listed on her CV in any related field or discipline.

I have added Newscaster to her profession in line with the article lede and her CV having worked for Mega Channel between 2004-2007 listed as “newscaster & journalist”. Jo Jc Jo (talk) 11:31, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Change section title (from "Corruption and arrest")

Change to

• "Arrest on charges of corruption".
• "Arrest on charges of ..."
• "Arrest" or "Arrest in 2022".

(While glancing thru the section, the current title seems like a "Crystal ball thingy", while the paragraphs on the other hand, are down to earth.) 46.15.84.92 (talk) 06:26, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

 Done, thanks Ymblanter (talk) 09:09, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

"and bags of cash were found at her home" (change or remove)

Reminder: two Euro-coins in one bag and two Euro-coins in another bags, is one way of saying "and bags of cash were found at her home".--Now, if you can say

• "and bags of cash with thousands of Euros were found at her home" ... 46.15.84.92 (talk) 06:37, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

I think the implication is clear to most. However, please feel free to update the article if you can find a source that state either;

• The bags did indeed have thousands of euros in them

Or;

• The bags did not contain just two bags each containing a two-euro coin. Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 10:28, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

I believe the common understanding of "bags of cash were found..." implies more than just a nominal amount of currency. This would be the common understanding of the phrase and I believe it is appropriate even though we do not have the exact amount. When a bank is robbed, articles typically report "money was taken" and it is assumed and generally accepted that it was more than two pieces of currency. Just my two cents (no pun intended). Jurisdicta (talk) 15:56, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Father is/was a politician (let's add this to early life)

There are English-language references stating this. I hope someone can look into this and add. Elmenhorster (talk) 11:50, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

parallaximag.gr/thessaloniki-news/poios-einai-o-pateras-tis-eyas-kaili-kai-poy-empleketai-sti-thessaloniki/amp?espv=1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:D808:7390:68B4:ACB6:E2CA:53A4 (talk) 12:15, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

https://info-war.gr/oi-scheseis-tis-oikogeneias-kaili-me-ge/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:D808:7390:68B4:ACB6:E2CA:53A4 (talk) 12:25, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

https://www.tovima.gr/2014/05/09/opinions/ti-gyreye-o-adwnis-me-toys-karamanlikoys

Her father had been elected as the president of a state hospital by adonis — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:D808:7390:68B4:ACB6:E2CA:53A4 (talk) 12:29, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Not all accomplices with Wikipedia pages are listed

I hope someone can look into this and add relevant links. An Italian trade unionist comes to mind... Elmenhorster (talk) 11:51, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Elmenhorster:. If you there are articles missing from Wikipedia that you think meet the criteria for article creation then please feel free to be bold and create them. Wikipedia has lots of resources to help with creating your first article. If you’d like to work with others you can also find a WikiProject related to the relevant topic.

It’s also always best to be direct so we all understand what you are requesting. If you are talking about creating an article for Luca Visentini you are welcome to develop and expand.

If you instead mean that other people arrested this weekend, such as Visentini, are not included in this article and you find references relevant to Kaili then you can be bold and make the edits.

My view on that would be that I’m yet to read any information linking the two individuals explicitly beyond the fact they were arrested as part of the same investigation. They may not have know of each others involvement for example or are not linked at all. In such cases I would struggle to find a justification for including this information in the Kaili article. Remember, this is an article about Kaili and not the scandal in it’s entirety. Maybe it will become clear that this scandal deserves its own article where, when the information is available, the whole scandal can be discussed within the entirety it’s context.

Happy editing! Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 00:39, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Article Image decision for Consensus

Image 1 Original image	Image 2 Deusestlux's suggestion	Image 3 TurnipWatch's suggestion
Arabic, Dutch, Egyptian Arabic, Estonian, Finnish, German, Greek, Persian, Polish, Spanish	Italian, Bulgarian	Basque, Catalan, French, Hungarian, Norwegian, Russian
2,897 × 3,410 pixels Blurring in foreground	3,701 × 5,551 pixels Not level	1,440 × 1,811 pixels

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Toddy1 (talk • contribs) 20:53, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I have recently undone @Deusestlux:'s change of image for this article to maintain status quo while we gather consensus. The images in question are;

• The original and long standing image for this article. Image1
• Deusestlux proposed change. Image 2

The rational behind retaining image 1;

Poorer quality image. Image 2, I believe to be a low quality image of the subject. The composition of the subject is not level, the subject appears to be mid-speech and the image is a wider shot than the image 1. Objectively, image 1 is a better image. I believe the original is a stronger image for this article.

Image similarities. This article is relatively brief and the images and very simular. I do not believe this warrants both images being included in the article as per Deusestlux's edit. One image only should be used until such time as the article is developed further warranting additional images. At such time, we should only add an addition image if it adds further context to the article that is not provided by the main image.

Please join the discussion to get consensus on selecting an article image.

Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 12:28, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Concur that only one image is necessary at this time. But I would like to see a better image. Ideally without headphones/microphone.

This doesn't get all the way there (still have headphones), but I think that one, in use on Russian and Hungarian versions of the page is better than the one in use and the one suggested by Deusestlux. TurnipWatch (talk) 16:08, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks @TurnipWatch: I'd love to know your suggestion but that link appears to be broken. Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 18:59, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Apologies: this one. TurnipWatch (talk) 21:38, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Headphones on the other hand might be appropriate for someone who apparently is famous in part as a former newscaster? 90.112.72.149 (talk) 21:18, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

My preference would be image 1. Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 22:19, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Revert of Eva Kaili suspension from infobox

Moved from User talk:Jo Jc Jo

Hello, First of all, I believe it is neccessary for the suspension date in the infobox to be kept, to inform the viewer and give them a better overview of what happened, and she was not suspended for one day but from December 9 until December 13. Kind regards, Vosle — Preceding unsigned comment added by VosleCap (talk • contribs) 13:35, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

@VosleCap: Okay. I don't really feel strongly about it but it is clear from the text of the article about the suspension. It's just a question of what is in the infobox. I think if we consider WP:NOTNEWS then the test of time will put into perspective that she was suspended on Saturday and removed on Tuesday as an unimportant detail (unimportant in the context of what should be included in an infobox). Of course, it should remain in the body of the article. Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 13:49, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Disputed sentence i.e. about Kaili repeatedly defending PM Mitsotakis's administration

The following sentence has been disputed by an IP editor:^[1][2]

For example, she had repeatedly defended the administration of right-wing Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis.

The citation certainly supports the preceding sentence in the article: Following her arrest, PASOK president Nikos Androulakis described her as "a Trojan horse of New Democracy", and announced that she would not be a candidate for PASOK again. The citation was there to support she had strongly opposed the Prespa Agreement, proposed by Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras in 2018, but that was deleted by Ανδρέας Κρυστάλλης on 16 December 2022.^[3] I do not see how the citation explicitly supports the sentence it has been left against.

I am moving the citation to the sentence it supports and adding a FACT tag to the existing sentence.-- Toddy1 (talk) 23:04, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

I do not believe it appropriate to include a section called “controversy inside PASOK” at all. This gives undue bias to Androulakis comments and criticism. Kaili has been a member of PASOK for a long time and it is natural that a the leader would attack a rumour led future competitor. It maybe true to say Kaili is on the right of PASOK (indeed, in Brussels she’s considered on the right of S&D) but there is no source claiming this is controversial.

Being a member of a political party and disagreeing with some aspects does not make a controversy.

I would suggest this section be reworked as “political views” which can include broader research on Kaili’s views. Particularly of interest could be her pro-business views, views on tech & crypto for example. Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 17:27, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Jo Jc Jo I think it needs to stay because she was indeed very controversial inside PASOK since at least 2011-12 (it's not just Androulakis wanting to naturally distance himself after her arrest). The problem is that PASOK as a party has a very complicated history (in short, it was simultaneously very leftist and very nationalist from its founding in 1974 until the death of Andreas Papandreou in 1996, then became pretty much mainstream social-democratic, but still retaining a nationalist wing). Among the controversies that Kaili caused inside PASOK were the claim that benefits are for lazy people, trying (just last month) to downplay the Greek wire-tapping scandal where Androulakis himself was a victim, and the fact that in Brussels she regularly voted against the party line, most prominently last September, when she endorsed the center-right Alessandro Chiocchetti. However, her opposition to the Prespa Agreement (which is sometimes provided as proof of her right-wing stance) was in fact the position of PASOK as well. In short, she was (very) controversial when it comes to economic issues (PASOK supports labor unions, civil servants, farmers etc. while Kaili is very pro-business) but on foreign policy she was rather mainstream and, in fact, her support for Qatar was the one thing that stood as massively unpopular, because Greece is strongly allied with Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the UAE (these relations, ironically, were strongest under PASOK governments). When she was elected Vice President in January 2022, New Democracy MEPs supported her and voted for her. Ανδρέας Κρυστάλλης (talk) 23:09, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Ανδρέας Κρυστάλλης, what would really help would be if the article had this as content, with citations to reliable sources.-- Toddy1 (talk) 23:33, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

@Ανδρέας Κρυστάλλης: That’s really interesting, thanks for engaging in this topic with me! I appreciate your rationale but if this is the case the arguments you have made above need to be in the article to warrant the section being titled as such as the current content is not a controversy. But even taking into consideration your arguments here, it seems to be a systemic party issue that is not necessarily because of Kaili. (making this whole section an example of WP:coatrack and further justifying its removal, or, as I suggest, renaming and expansion). From what you suggest PASOK is a broad church (nationalists and social-democratic and left wing coming together). If this is the case, then Kaili having different views to others in the party should be expected not “controversial”.

Claiming benefits are for lazy people is a political position (not a controversy). Opposing Prespa is a political position (not a controversy). Being pro-business is a political position (not a controversy). Etc. etc. You could write a “controversies” section on ever political that has ever lived if it all it took was when they disagreed or voted against their party.

It is certainly interesting that her politics is different to her party’s but this is a biography about her and I believe “political views” is more appropriate and neutral. I’m yet to see any controversy. A paragraph here could be given to how she regularly disagrees with her party, how she’s part of the nationalist wing of the party, but beyond that I think it’s giving undue prominence to a difference of opinion between a party member and it’s (current) leadership. I think, if you are able to find a reliable source, you could go as far to say “Kaili is controversial inside the party” but that is different from a whole section on “controversies inside PASOK”.

I would even push you to consider the alternative. To have some balance in this biography surely we should then have an “agreements inside PASOK” and I’m sure we can all see how preposterous that suggestion is.

I’m going to @Toddy1: here too as a fellow editor who’s been working on this recently for his view on the matter. But having engaged in the topic in more depth now I am more convinced the section should be changed.

Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 23:38, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Jo Jc Jo and Toddy1, of course these are political positions (and perfectly legitimate ones), but they were massively controversial inside PASOK (especially the "benefits are for lazy people", back in 2019). PASOK isn't a broad church, at least in economics. It's social-democratic, drawing its power from organized labor, farmers' associations and civil servants. So, Kaili's positions were massively controversial, and she became even more so by continuously ignoring the party line in EP votes and by downplaying the wire-tapping scandal. Toddy1, I'm sure one can find citations for some of the above if one puts some effort. Here (in French) is quoted her "benefits are for lazy people" opinion, and here is her downplaying of the wiretapping affair, where Androulakis himself was a victim. Ανδρέας Κρυστάλλης (talk) 00:10, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

References

That is a good way to solve the dispute @Toddy1:. Cinadon36 06:27, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

I believe that sentence has to go. It is really hard to find strong evidence supporting it cos of the subtle way Kaili was supporting New Democracy. If we keep it, we should add a qualifier or attribution. Cinadon36 07:36, 20 December 2022 (UTC)