Talk:Gabbi Tuft

Profile picture

Sooner or later he will need one, I don't spend enough time on Wikipedia to do it though. Danny Boy 420 (talk) 03:01, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

We have to wait for a free-use image to uploaded, until then there is no image that can be added. ♥Nici♥Vampire♥Heart♥ 10:17, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

TNA roster table!

That shouldn't be on there.92.235.168.144 (talk) 17:59, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Finishing Move Name

His current finisher is not called the "Burning Hammer" because that is an inverted Death Valley Driver. I know they've referred to it as a "Burning Hammer-type maneuver" which is likely where the confusion is from. As far as I know, his new finisher is unnamed. dj_ansi (talk) 17:25, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

On WWE Superstars last night, Matt Striker referred to the move once again as the "Burning Hammer." I suppose that is what they are calling it now. dj_ansi (talk) 01:19, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

In other media

I noticed that Curt Hawkins#In other media mentions that Hawkins is playable in Smackdown v Raw 2009. It makes me wonder, were he and Reks playable in any of the later games? I'll check to see if the current ones have roster lists on their pages. Ranze (talk) 16:02, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Cena dispute

Just read this 25 November 2014 interview, supposedly Cena told him "find another finisher or you're fired" because he thought the Burning Hammer looked too much like the attitude adjustment, even though the Hammer sets up with guy on side and has the guy land on his front while the Adjustment sets up with guy on front and lands on his back. Wondering if this should be included in some fashion that he spoke out against Cena.

Also related:

• 24 Nov interview
• Dec 2 continuation of Nov 25 thing
• Dec 4 continuation

Might be others on this site or others. Ranze (talk) 03:27, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Removal of Image?

Where does the essay located at WP:GenderID say that images must be scrubbed? Which is an essay, not policy. She is notable for being a wrestler. Nothing else. Any DUE image would be related to her wrestling. A time in her life where she would have a masculine look. This seems like a bit of a stretch and should be reverted but if there is a policy or some public disavowal of her wrestling days I am missing, please let me know. Slywriter (talk) 04:09, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

There isn't really a policy on this, but there is a discussion at Talk:MOSBIO. Newimpartial (talk) 17:55, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

That discussion doesn't conclude that we shouldn't have images of them pre-transition (unless she wasn't notable pre-transition, but she was). — Czello 18:20, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

No, it doesn't, but the issue doesn't necessarily depend on whether or not the person was notable; it may be a bit stricter. Draft policy text offers the following criterion, which seems to underly what various editors have said: old images that conflict with the current gender should not be used unless the subject's pre-transition appearance is especially well-known and notable (emphasis added). A professional wrestler probably satisfies that criterion, but it is a bit tighter than simply being notable. Newimpartial (talk) 18:49, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

So I'd say that her pre-transition appearance certainly was notable (after all, we have 3 pre-transition images of her on the page). That said, I do think we should find a post-transition replacement ASAP. I have seen one online, but I'm unsure of rights usage etc. — Czello 18:53, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

From her instagram, though I'd advise cropping the right half. But again, I don't know what the rights issue is here. Hopefully someone who knows image policy better than me can advise. — Czello 18:57, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Still seems to be a question of DUE. She has done nothing of recent note beyond publicizing her gender identity and it's crystal ball to assume that she will do anything of note to justify inclusion of an updated picture. She also has not declared any personal issue with being recognized as a masculine professional wrestler, so it seems to be removal of historical images without any justification or cause especially given the draft policy covers well-known pre-transition images (which again is all she is known for at this time). Slywriter (talk) 21:07, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

I don't want any historical images to disappear at all, but I don't see why we can't include a more present image if we can find one. — Czello 21:21, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Misunderstood use of 'replacement' and had not seen your article edit. A conversation about changing the info box image or removing it completely might be in order especially as i believe the info box image is the one grabbed by search engines for their own info boxes. Not strictly our problem but search engines showing a dated image seems more problematic than the action shots within the article Slywriter (talk) 22:07, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Brian Pillman Jr. recently got on Twitter and asked us to change his picture here and authorized the use of one of his selfies. Obviously, it's preferable to use a recent picture for the infobox on this article too. Our best bet would be to reach out to Tuft and see if she could provide one with proper license. I don't have Twitter otherwise I'd do it myself. Or, if anybody could contact Wrestling, Inc. or host Nick Hausman, we could see if they could change this YouTube interview with her to have creative commons licensing and we could use a screencap of it.LM2000 (talk) 04:03, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

I'll message her on Instagram and see if I get a reply. I'm not sure the best way to document this other than screenshots of the convo, which obviously could be faked, but I guess it's the best place to start. — Czello 08:32, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

I just sent her a DM on TikTok and am waiting for a response. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 02:12, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

MOS:DEADNAME

Just so it is recorded here, I will point out that last year's RfC at MOS:DEADNAME enshrined the principle that deadnames under which a person was never notable should not be included in articles; this has been understood as a reason to exclude from WP articles birth names in instances where a person had formerly been notable under their stage name but not under their birth name, q.v. Elliot Page. Newimpartial (talk) 18:00, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Makes sense, the re-direct and reference to her ring name are sufficient for a reader to locate the article or find further information about her. Slywriter (talk) 21:09, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

• Don't deadname regardless of notability. Transphobic editors have prevailed at Chelsea Manning. --2601:C4:C300:1BD0:2451:49E8:5FB3:2747 (talk) 00:55, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
  • @2601:C4:C300:1BD0:2451:49E8:5FB3:2747: That's not how we do things: the editors there (and other similar articles, like The Wachowskis) aren't being transphobic, they're being encyclopedic. We don't erase history if they were notable, as per WP:DEADNAME. — Czello 16:14, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

If it is a matter of notability, I understand, and accept the ruling at RfC. But I was legitimately curious whether I had heard of Gabbi under a different name not presented in the article, and had to dig through version history to find the information. That is bordering on suppression of fact, and it's not an issue with the Caitlyn Jenner page, which by this definition, could be deadnaming. Just because Gabbi's old stage name was Gabe doesn't mean that his legal name might not have been USED TO HAVE BEEN Gary. Has nothing to do with deadnaming, which I agree, has no place here and should be ruled against. Yookaloco (talk) 12:37, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

The community consensus at the moment is that including non-notable prior names of trans people, whether or not they are birth names, is not acceptable on WP but including the names by which people were clearly notable is accepted, so long as it is helpful for the reader and is not done more than minimally necessary. Newimpartial (talk) 16:03, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Pronouns

I believe we should keep the pronouns as he because he was wrestling as a male until he recently came out as Trans, I have nothing against Transgender I just don’t see the point changing it when we identified as male then (TheKinkdomMan talk 21:32, 5 February 2021 (UTC))

He* (TheKinkdomMan talk 21:35, 5 February 2021 (UTC))

no. WP:Genderid is pretty clear. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 21:47, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Is it clear I wanna read the link (TheKinkdomMan talk 22:02, 5 February 2021 (UTC))

MOS:GENDERID Newimpartial (talk) 22:09, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Think of it this way, for the purpose of Wikipedia and using the voice of wikipedia, she was always a woman, even if her notable identity was masculine. Slywriter (talk) 22:30, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

I hope no one is driving a car to this logic where you are told a brick wall is a pile of sand.. you know it would really be funny if this was all a staged wrestling story script.. but it is obviously not because the transformation is well along. Nobody is saying that she is not a woman but it is very dangerous to tell people who were looking at a man that it was a woman it has to be explained very carefully the feelings and rights of Gabbi Tufts are very important but so too are the sanity tights of those trying to make sense of physical reality..Strattonsmith (talk) 23:48, 6 February 2021 (UTC)|

Recognizing that a person we are taking to in the present is the same person we are looking at pictures or videos of from the past, and that that person is a woman, should not be any harder to do than any other form of basic respect and empathy. And from my own personal experience, showing basic respect and empathy doesn't make it any more difficult to drive a car, or whatever the tortured metaphor was. Newimpartial (talk) 01:03, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

@Strattonsmith:, this talk page is not the venue to debate the logic. The community has weighed in on the issue and the policy is clear, when speaking in the voice of wikipedia, pronouns are to be used consistent with how the subject identifies, irrespective of the timeframe being discussed. Do you have to personally agree with this policy? No, but you do have to edit in compliance with it (or at least, not maliciously defy the policy nor revert/edit-war against it when other editors correct the prose to match policy). Slywriter (talk) 01:31, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes I agree the policy is in place and will honor it. This is a talk page don't become what you so ardently oppose. Case closed.Strattonsmith (talk) 14:16, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

But surely "Gabbi Tuft" is a 'she', but "Tyler Reks" is a 'he', just like "Elliot Page" is a 'he (or they)' but "Juno MacGuff" is a 'she'? Tewdar (talk) 18:06, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

@Newimpartial: - you wouldn't refer to the character "Juno MacGuff" in the film as 'he'? Would you? Tewdar (talk) 18:13, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

As far as I know, the pronouns in this article should be referring to Gabbi Tuft rather than Tyler Reks. I believe Wikipedia regards wrestling persona as professional names (like the unpronounceable character Prince went by for a while) rather than fictional characters as in your example. Because kayfabe, presumably. Newimpartial (talk) 00:34, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

@Newimpartial: - Wikipedia - the kayfabe encyclopedia that anyone can edit? "IT'S STILL REAL TO ME DAMMIT!!!" In that case, can someone please edit The Godfather (wrestler) and remove the ironic punctuation from the phrase "cast spells" in the Papa Shango section? This implies Charles Wright can't really cast spells, which clearly breaks kayfabe... Tewdar (talk) 04:11, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. If you can't make people vomit from across the room, you just aren't doing it right. Newimpartial (talk) 12:29, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't think the performer/wrestler dynamic is completely comparable to the actor/character dynamic. It makes sense to keep Elliot Page as "he" and Juno as "she", but I think where wrestlers are concerned there's too much overlap between what's real and what's fake -- so pronouns should be consistent. — Czello ^{(Please tag me in replies)} 12:40, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Revise Categories

In light of Gabbi coming out as transgender, one of the page categories needs to be updated. The American male professional wrestlers category needs to be changed to American female professional wrestlers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.37.165.243 (talk) 23:41, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

"male" needs to be removed.--2601:C4:C300:1BD0:2451:49E8:5FB3:2747 (talk) 00:49, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

 Done.LM2000 (talk) 04:15, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Pictures

Since Tuft now identifies as a woman shouldn't the old pre-transition pictures be removed? Yodabyte (talk) 10:39, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

No, it's fairly common practice to show pre-transition images if they were notable at that time. For e.g., see The Wachowskis, Chelsea Manning, or Caitlyn Jenner. That said, we are in dire need of an up-to-date image to sit in the infobox. I did message her on Instagram to request permission to use a recent image, but received no response. — Czello 10:57, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 June 2021

Change main photo to any one of the newer one’s she posted on Instagram 98.116.167.50 (talk) 00:53, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: If you can find a more recent image of her that meets our image use policy (most notably that it is freely licensed) you can upload it and we can add it to the article, but generally just pulling images off instagram would not be satisfactory for copyright reasons. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 01:09, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 December 2021

Would like to request changing Gabbi's photo since her current photo is from before her transition 24.192.44.142 (talk) 13:57, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: See explanation above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:03, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 December 2021 (2)

Change Gabbi's photo from a photo before her transition Chaceadkins22 (talk) 14:00, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: See explanation above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:03, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Changing the Article Picture

If there's not going to be a new picture of her used for article following her transition, would it at least be possible to remove the pre-transition picture? I would have to imagine it's deeply disrespectful to keep the current picture up. 2A02:C7C:3669:1B00:755E:7CFC:BB78:F987 (talk) 01:49, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

This has been discussed above; it's normal practice to show pictures of pre-transition. — Czello 08:12, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Pretransition photo

Gabbi has requested that her pre transition photo not be the first picture on this page. If you would like to put a picture up please use a current photo. You can check her twitter where she has been trying to get Wikipedia to fix this. 2600:1700:2B40:C410:AC83:6D73:3E34:9010 (talk) 03:58, 16 February 2023 (UTC)