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If someone wants some of the other columns please put them in a separate table in a separate section of the article. And please create the other tables from the latest data at [[World Prison Brief]]. The data at [[User:Timeshifter/Sandbox220]] is way out of date. --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 11:22, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
If someone wants some of the other columns please put them in a separate table in a separate section of the article. And please create the other tables from the latest data at [[World Prison Brief]]. The data at [[User:Timeshifter/Sandbox220]] is way out of date. --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 11:22, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
:{{ping|Timeshifter}} Thanks, but we need the old table here as well, as it had more data subgrouped by population groups. Also, a historical table is needed, I think. --[[Special:Contributions/95.24.65.132|95.24.65.132]] ([[User talk:95.24.65.132|talk]]) 06:59, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Revision as of 06:59, 29 November 2023

Tables have been fully updated

See: User:Timeshifter/Sandbox137. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:16, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok then. KirkburnFandom (talk) 21:19, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see a date. The map shows Russia with a rate of 400+ but it is 331 in the table. Keith McClary (talk) 21:02, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keith McClary. If you click on the map and expand it, then you will see "2018". So the map data is older than the table data. Russia had a higher incarceration rate in the past. --Timeshifter (talk) 22:16, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Only World Prison Brief figures are used in this article", ...

... say Timeshifter[1] and Thegoodguy3221.[2]

Why should they?

Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. (WP:NPOV)

— Guarapiranga ☎ 23:04, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The article is called List of countries by incarceration rate. The main table caption says that the source is World Prison Brief. So the limitation is in the focus of the table.
If you want to use other sources then I suggest starting another table. But I will not be maintaining it. If you start it, then you need to maintain it. Good luck with that. You will soon learn why the regular editors are not interested.
If that new table is not maintained, then I will ask the other editors to spin it off to another separate list article. It will soon be deleted at "Articles for Deletion" if it is not maintained.
Using a single source for each table is common in many articles for all the above reasons.
And about neutrality, I don't see any lack of neutrality on the part of World Prison Brief. They are a long respected organization.
And using a single source that is vetting the data according to their own consistent rules is more reliable for comparison purposes. That means we editors don't have to vet hundreds of sources for hundreds of countries. People have tried concerning various country lists, and it can easily be a nightmare. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:45, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  1. The article is called List of countries by incarceration rate.
    Precisely. No specification of source whatsoever.
  2. The main table caption says that the source is World Prison Brief. So the limitation is in the focus of the table.
    Changing a caption is no "limitation" at all.
  3. If you want to use other sources then I suggest starting another table.
    There's no reason why both data can't coexist on the same table. Different sources coexist on the same table at List of countries and dependencies by area, List of countries by GDP (nominal), List of countries by GDP (PPP), List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita, List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita... In fact, it is preferable that they do, so readers can easily compare them.
  4. But I will not be maintaining it.
    No one asked you to.
  5. If you start it, then you need to maintain it.
    Where did you pull that policy from??
  6. If that new table is not maintained, then I will ask the other editors to spin it off to another separate list article. It will soon be deleted at "Articles for Deletion" if it is not maintained.
    Sounds like to me you see yourself as the owner of this article (call it "maintainer" if you like), and are willing to wp:game the system to have your way with it (rather than working collaboratively by policy and consensus).
  7. Using a single source for each table is common in many articles for all the above reasons.
    Common but not required. What is required is that data and viewpoints from all reliable sources be accurately, verifiably and proportionately represented.
  8. And about neutrality, I don't see any lack of neutrality on the part of World Prison Brief.
    WP:Neutrality is not about neutrality of the sources—no source is neutral! Rather it requires that Wikipedia be neutral in relation to its sources (which, again, means representing them all accurately, verifiably and proportionately).
  9. And using a single source that is vetting the data according to their own consistent rules is more reliable for comparison purposes.
    Censoring reliable sources is consistently biased; a breach of WP:NPOV.
  10. That means we editors don't have to vet hundreds of sources for hundreds of countries.
    Editors do it everyday at List of countries and dependencies by population, for instance.
  11. People have tried concerning various country lists, and it can easily be a nightmare.
    Again, no one asked you to.
— Guarapiranga ☎ 01:19, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose using other sources in this article. I don't want to waste time arguing with you,and wikilawyering. As evidenced on your talk page, and many other talk pages, you spend a lot of time doing that.
If you want to start another incarceration rate list page using multiple sources feel free to do so. There is no reason that table needs to be in this article, and I oppose it.
That other article can be linked from this article. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:49, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I understand you oppose accurately and proportionately representing all reliable sources in this article. That's contrary to WP:NPOV. Call it wikilawyering if you like, but all editors are bound by WP:POLICY.
There is no reason that table needs to be in this article, and I oppose it.
Yes, there is: WP:NEUTRALITY:

Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources.


If you want to start another incarceration rate list page using multiple sources feel free to do so.
You're acting like you own this article. Let me assure you: you don't. WMF does. — Guarapiranga ☎ 05:53, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As usual you in your many wikilawyering posts you ignore what others say, and misrepresent what they say. Many people have pointed this out to you. Go back and read my previous replies. --Timeshifter (talk) 07:10, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For more info see:

--Timeshifter (talk) 18:30, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

United Kingdom

I couldn’t find UK 169.255.184.162 (talk) 07:44, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I added a note in front of the main table. It links to this note:
List of countries by incarceration rate#United Kingdom.
--Timeshifter (talk) 12:12, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Name

All 226 I see in the list are countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.249.44.2 (talk) 17:19, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please see this section of the article: List of countries and some dependent territories and subnational areas by incarceration rate#Territories or other subnational areas.
I was happy though when the article was named just List of countries by incarceration rate. That is the common title for these type of list articles. The other subnational areas are common bonus entries.--Timeshifter (talk) 01:55, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reverted back to "List of countries by incarceration rate"

See diff. My full edit summary (some of it was cut off due to length):

Timeshifter moved page List of countries and some dependent territories and subnational areas by incarceration rate to List of countries by incarceration rate over redirect: Reverting undiscussed page move by User:PK2. See talk. Longer name is not normal. See List of countries by intentional homicide rate. It also has territories and subnational areas. This is normal. Long name messes up Google search results for incarceration rates. All one sees is "List of countries and some dependent territories ..."

This was when I did this search:

After changing the name back within minutes it shows up at the top of the search results, along with part of the table. That is a much better search result.

See also: WP:CONCISE and WP:PRECISE. Those are some of the reasons in the page move drop down list.

Please do not change the name back to a longer name without discussion. It is time-consuming to move this page due to having to separately change the archive names too. And the name in the bot wikitext on this talk page.

User PK2 made the change to the longer name around Nov 27, 2022, assuming it was around the same time as his talk page move to the longer name. See diff.

Looking at the page views timeline (see the top of this talk page) there was a drastic drop in page views after Nov 27, 2022. Probably because of the Google search problem mentioned previously. The page views are already back up after reverting to the short name. 2 times higher than during the slump. According to this thread: Wikipedia talk:Article titles#Google limits length of titles in search results. Big difference in page views. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:11, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Article needs full update. Easier if more tables used

I don't have the time or health to do it. And merging data columns can be tricky if there are different numbers of countries used for different column topics at the source:

  • Count. Rate per 100,000. Male (%). Female (%). National (%). Foreign (%). Occupancy (%). Remand.

Breaking up this wide table into a couple narrower tables would help. For much help see: Help:Table#Tables and the visual editor (VE). --Timeshifter (talk) 21:26, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Incarceration rates and counts fully updated

This is relatively easy to do because the 2 reference pages (one for rates, and one for counts) necessarily have the same number of locations. Counts are needed to calculate rates. So the columns can be pasted next to each other. See Help:Table.

That is not true for the other columns (see User:Timeshifter/Sandbox220). They have differing numbers of countries. This can make it a nightmare to combine them all into one table without many errors.

Please do not add more columns to the main table of rates and counts. That way it can be updated more often. And it makes for a narrower table that can be easily viewed in cell phones.

If someone wants some of the other columns please put them in a separate table in a separate section of the article. And please create the other tables from the latest data at World Prison Brief. The data at User:Timeshifter/Sandbox220 is way out of date. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:22, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Timeshifter: Thanks, but we need the old table here as well, as it had more data subgrouped by population groups. Also, a historical table is needed, I think. --95.24.65.132 (talk) 06:59, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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