Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

Not to be confused with Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American football, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian rules football, or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Canadian football.

"Primeira Liga" moved to "Liga Portugal 1" without discussion

Footy Tea (talk · contribs) moved the page. SLBedit (talk) 18:10, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I've reverted the move. SLBedit (talk) 18:14, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I have warned them. GiantSnowman 18:23, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Assists on 2023–24 A-League Men

Would some editors here please help explain the consensus not to add assists to league pages? I have reverted Alza08 twice on 2023–24 A-League Men and do not wish to get blocked for edit-warring. Alza08 is not listening and is claiming that other league pages list assists. --SuperJew (talk) 08:41, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

some examples from a quick search: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football/Archive_12#Assists, Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football/Archive_78#Assists_in_season_article, Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football/Archive_164#Assist_table_to_club_season_articles. Also, the MoS for league seasons doesn't include assists. --SuperJew (talk) 09:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand why people put assists on season pages, it's overkill and we have WP:NOSTATS to cover a degree of overkill. Regards. Govvy (talk) 10:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Given some goals are not assisted by a team mate, such as the opposition giving the ball away to the goalscorer, penalties and own goals, I consider assists as an incomplete list of facts on how goals are created. e.g. the top of the report from this game did not name the Newcastle player who assisted the own goal by Deniz Undav last year while a Premier League match yesterday did not have an assist when the BBC compiled the report. I can see SuperJew has taken away assists tables already. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 11:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Assists should not be included, not least per WP:NOTSTATS. GiantSnowman 11:23, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

User Kolya77 is also objecting to removal of assists on Moldovan Super Liga pages (for example) and would like to challenge the consensus here. --SuperJew (talk) 11:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: I think this consensus should be properly documented and codified (maybe on the league season page MoS?) so there is a proper link to show users claiming there is no such consensus. --SuperJew (talk) 11:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

We have Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Consensus for this. GiantSnowman 11:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

There is no mention of assists there. --SuperJew (talk) 11:28, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes - I meant to add it there. GiantSnowman 12:04, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I am trying to remove them, but meeting pushback and don't want to be in an edit war. --SuperJew (talk) 11:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

We can discuss this , but this will lead nowhere, usually it will be as Mr Snowman wants. Have a good day guys.Kolya77 (talk) 11:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

No, it will be as the community agrees. If that's the level of your contributions then I suggest you stop posting. GiantSnowman 12:06, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

you're the one who was asking to discuss again and again, but when given the opportunity seems you are not interested to discuss. --SuperJew (talk) 12:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

We have discussed this multiple times, just because this user don't like the outcome, that's too bad. Consensus is against adding it, and it's a clear violation of WP:NOTSTATS. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

On this note, there are many articles with top assists listed. If anyone wants to join me in trying to clear them out, that'd be good. --SuperJew (talk) 12:32, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Kowalczyk900 is re-adding assists to 2023–24 Premier League with no explanation and I'm on verge of editwar. --SuperJew (talk) 16:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I think a clear mention of assists is required in Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Consensus prior to any attempts to start removing top assists sections from any article. And I would be very careful in making any changes to North American league articles, where assists are considered really important (and sometimes have associated awards and attract referenceable media attention), and where there would be considerable pushback. Perhaps concentrate on non-North American articles more generally, and see how much traction or opposition ensues from those edits. Matilda Maniac (talk) 01:05, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I added. Feel free to improve my wording. --SuperJew (talk) 06:13, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

2024–25 season articles

If anyone's interested in seeing what the 2024–25 English club-season articles are going to look like (including overly detailed squad tables and everyone's favourite round-by-round league positions), have a lookie here. Maybe we can nip it in the bud now, saving ourselves hours of work in the summer. Seasider53 (talk) 11:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Why wait? Just look at the Singapore 2024–25 season articles. Rumours sections! Youth teams results! Women's results! Dougal18 (talk) 12:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Definitely pertinent to next season to know how much money a club paid to sign players anything up to nine years earlier.... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

How did I guess who drafted that Liverpool article, full of nonsense...?! GiantSnowman 13:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Next season’s West Ham page uses the rumoured transfer fee on many occasions where the actual fee was undisclosed. What was wrong with the current season with no fees, no "first signed" dates and no youth team players with zero appearances in the squad list?--Egghead06 (talk) 13:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

That level of detail is not needed. GiantSnowman 13:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I also can't see how "contract expiry date" is in any way relevant. Has anyone ever looked at 1967–68 Manchester United F.C. season and thought "well, it's good, but what I really want to know is when George Best's contract was going to expire"....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Also the verifiability of lots of this superfluous information is questionable. GiantSnowman 15:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Horrible *cries in fancruft* Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree with this being overkill and way too much info. Since we talk about those articles, i ping @Skyblueshaun:, so he can join the discussion. Kante4 (talk) 15:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, sorry if you think this is overkill, I just took the inspiration from here, and here, and here for example. If someone could send me a draft season article then that would be appreciated. Most League Two and some League One clubs won't have season articles if not created. --Skyblueshaun (talk) 15:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Club seasons has been in existence for 17 years. GiantSnowman 15:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll use that template in future, may I add a "Released" section in the "Transfer" section please, so we can see what players were released/let go before joining a new subsequent club. Also I'll use the "footballbox collapsible" template for matches. Again, thank you. --Skyblueshaun (talk) 16:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

That club seasons template clearly states that there are MOS:ACCESS issues with footballbox collapsible. It would be advisable to use one of the other formats. You could also just use the footballbox (ie- get rid of the collapsible function) as that gets around most of the problems with it. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 16:59, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Yellow and red cards are still not part of the match summaries in the WP:FOOTY manual of style, by the way. Only goals should be listed outside of the attendance, referee etc. I don't understand why you include such irrelevant information, making so much work for yourself, when maybe three other readers find it useful. Seasider53 (talk) 18:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I am not the only editor to use yellow and red cards, Most of the season articles I come across do include cards. Skyblueshaun (talk) 18:28, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

See confirmation bias. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 18:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

and also WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. GiantSnowman 18:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Do or do we Not include cards then, If I am being warned to stop then so should everyone else. Skyblueshaun (talk) 19:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

You claim to be copying other articles. Don’t, and you’ll be fine. Seasider53 (talk) 19:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

This says "Goals scored and optionally cards issued". Dougal18 (talk) 13:24, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

The documentation has been like that for almost 15 years, consensus appears to have changed since then. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 13:32, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

We can't really complain about that if it's currently part of the documentation. I don't know that it's worth discussing its removal either, considering there's so much else that we need to clamp down on regarding the current state of season articles. Seasider53 (talk) 15:45, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Is this one better here? Skyblueshaun (talk) 22:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

If you’re going by the season template, nobody can have any qualms. Seasider53 (talk) 22:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

And that still has position-by-round, which has been deemed useless in WP:FOOTY discussions of yore. Seasider53 (talk) 02:51, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't include colours in the transfers tables. It's unneccessary decoration which can make it hard for some users to read. --SuperJew (talk) 05:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know that Leeds are definitely getting promoted, that'll save a lot of stress over the next four weeks... Black Kite (talk) 18:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Discussion on how host countries are listed

In the infobox, the current norm is to simply type the name of the nation. I believe that it would look better, and be better if we used the country data templates (example: Brazil) as the host country. In the 2022 FIFA World Cup article, simply having an unlinked “Qatar” as the host just feels bland. Yoblyblob (Talk) :) 18:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

There is a Wikipedia-wide policy on this - MOS:INFOBOXFLAG. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 20:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree, MOS:INFOBOXFLAG is clear, and so this doesn't need any more discussion. This WikiProject cannot override a Wikipedia-wide guideline on this. Joseph2302 (talk) 08:01, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

References on Football Players with Senior NT Appearances

On pages of football players who have gained appearance(s) in senior national team, I noticed that the sources regarding their debut on "International career" section are inconsistent.

1. Some pages referenced match reports from UEFA and FIFA (e.g. Kylian Mbappé)
2. Some referenced secondary sources (e.g. Álex Grimaldo)
3. Some are not referenced (e.g. Edinson Cavani)

Let's use references from secondary sources instead of match reports, shall we? I've done that with many football players articles recently, such as Arkadiusz Milik. Anyone may go ahead and replace them with sources provided.

CuteDolphin712 (talk) 13:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

It definitely shouldn't be boxscore match reports. A reference should explicitly mention what it is being cited. Otherwise it's original research. RedPatch (talk) 13:30, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Chiedozie Ogbene

Eyes/views welcome on the lede at Chiedozie Ogbene - it has been 'Irish footballer' since the article was created, now an IP is saying he is 'not fully Irish' and adding 'Nigerian'. This, to me, is a Raheem Sterling case - born abroad but lived in 'adopted' nation since a young child and all sources describe him as such. GiantSnowman 17:48, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the (non-POV-pushing) sources take precedence, and if a person attended primary school in a location and - in the case of football - started their football career there, we also have common sense dictating that they are of that nationality and from that location. Other viewpoints constitute variants of primordialism.

I have witnessed the same case at Kabamba Kalabatama. Someone insists on calling him Zambian, although he was not born to Zambian parents, but to Congolese, and spent his entire schooling and youth football career in Norway. And not least, no credible sources call him Zambian. Of course, it might be a case of representation and acquiring the passport of another nation, but to return to Chiedozie Ogbene's case, he unequivocally represents Ireland. Geschichte (talk) 07:35, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Roger Schmidt page move

Anyone else thinks this is identified as a controversial move and therefore should have been a WP:RM discussion first? I certainly remember some of us talking about this article before. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 20:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes - I have reverted. GiantSnowman 21:00, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 21:19, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

This is an example of something I've highlighted before: there are subjects who are notable for both their playing and coaching careers (albeit most coaches these days tend to have played at a notable level of football). I say we should do away with "footballer" as our disambiguator and use "football" instead. Rugby union uses "rugby union", American football uses "American football", why are we using the person's job and not their field? – PeeJay 20:37, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I like PeeJay's suggestion. It would also match how we use "soccer" not "soccer player" for North American and Australian players. RedPatch (talk) 20:44, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

because 'football' is notoriously ambiguous. GiantSnowman 20:48, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

We use rugby union/soccer because there isn't an adjective for it. Many other sports that have an adjective form use that e.g. cricketers. And as GS points out, football is ambiguous, and (footballer) is clearly better than (association football), which would be the only appropriate compromise. And (coach) is ambiguous too, which was what this thread was actually about. Joseph2302 (talk) 20:51, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

That reasoning runs into problems, when you've got people like Schmidt, who are involved in football, but are not notable as players. While coach is clearly the wrong hatnote, moving the page away from footballer is well warranted, given that Schmidt would not meet the relevant notability guidelines based on his playing career. That being said, I think there's a reasonable case to be made that this Roger Schmidt is the primary topic. Sir Sputnik (talk) 21:49, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I also think this qualifies as WP:ONEOTHER since the academic is no longer living and won't influence the famous world anymore and those are the only two articles which has that name. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 11:40, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

New York/New Jersey Metrostars

I created a New York/New Jersey Metrostars, separate from the New York Red Bulls. However several admins have taken this page down. Below is the article. Please reply yes, if you wish to join the appeal for this page to exist. Thank you and regards. Loganmascarenhas20 (talk) 19:02, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I have removed the content of your article, placing it here in full is inappropriate. GiantSnowman 20:38, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree with GiantSnowman about the full content, I would have preferred linking the last edit like this instead of making this page more difficult to navigate.

As to voting: no, I already think New York Red Bulls covers all relevant content already. An example: Small Heath Alliance does not have any article content taken from Birmingham City F.C. as that is on the current team article so I believe this appeal could be pointless. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 20:54, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

This is the same club, just with a rename/rebrand, so we only need one article on it. Repeatedly trying to overwrite the redirect is disruptive. GiantSnowman 20:57, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Failed footballer saltings

Samuel Somerville (footballer) was previously deleted and salted as Samuel Somerville (and title blacklisted!). Ditto Noe Baba (footballer) vs. Noe Baba. Have these footballers actually become notable since then, or have they just flown under the radar? * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 16:00, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Back in the day, the subject notability guideline (SNG) for footballers required playing in a "fully professional" league or for a senior national team. Mr Somerville would now be notable under that guideline, through multiple appearances in the Malaysia Super League, Mr Baba would not.

Since the SNG was abolished, we go by WP:SPORTCRIT, which requires at least one reference to a source providing significant coverage of the subject to be present in the article, with the proviso that meeting this requirement alone does not indicate notability, but it does indicate that there are likely sufficient sources to merit a stand-alone article. In my personal opinion, sufficient sources probably do exist to merit a stand-alone article about Mr Baba; I wouldn't know where to find reliable sources about a player whose career was mainly in Malaysia. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 19:35, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

In the hope that salting does not affect admins/page mover rights users, as in both cases there is only one article of those names, i.e. those which * Pppery * has listed, I think it is sensible to move to base name at this point. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 08:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I can technically. But it would be wrong for me to do so without making sure that the reasons the article were salted have been addressed. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 15:44, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

The actual name isn't really the issue. It's SALTed because the subject wasn't notable. I'm happy to move those articles to the correct locations, with the previso that there is nothing against also doing an AfD. SALT is only really supposed to be to prevent obviously non-notable subjects that are recreated consistently from being created. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:06, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

If you do move Noe Baba, could you please merge the history of the long-deleted version into it; I'm happy to make an attempt at expanding it, and the old history/content might be helpful. Thanks, Struway2 (talk) 16:13, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

There isn't a lot there, but three citations that may be of use: [1], [2] and [3] Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:58, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I have moved both articles and restored the history. I will let others decide if the articles should go to AFD. I also note that I am entirely unsurprised that this mess has been caused by @Das osmnezz:. GiantSnowman 18:10, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Al-Ahli Saudi FC

The honours section was vandalised, I've corrected the league trophy count, maybe someone else wants to double check it's all okay. I am not sure if any other fake honours were added, cheers. Govvy (talk) 09:15, 12 April 2024 (UTC)