Talk:Scotland

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National Anthem of Scotland

The official National Anthem for Scotland is "God Save the Queen" as all countries under the rule of Westminster have this national anthem. This not only applies to Scotland but also Bermuda and other British Overseas Territories (BOTs) as well as Wales and Nothern Ireland. The only places this does not apply to are the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man and this is because they are not under the rule of Westminster and are not considered not to be BOTs but Crown Dependents". (Alxh 13:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC))

Thank you for starting a talk thread on this subject. I would ask that discussion is focussed here and that you not change the article again until Consensus has been reached. I am not sure how you derive what the "The official National Anthem" is - official as said by whom? The bare facts are that Scotland, when representing itself as such (and not as a part of the UK) does not use GSTK/Q - to have the article to say that does is false and misleading. This has been discussed in the past, there is no basis on which to validate your claims. As I have been typing this it appears you seem intent on edit warring I will make this crystal clear - Do Not Revert - Discuss or be blocked for 3RR. SFC9394 13:40, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

This argument is just sillyness. I mean, pushing legal fictions over facts is bad and childish enough, but such an assertion is not even a legal fiction since God Save the Queen is unofficial anyways. Ignoring that, this article is about Scotland, not the United Kingdom, and that song is regarded by no-one as even a contender for the Scottish national anthem. In reality, there are only two songs which function as Scottish national anthems, Flower of Scotland and Scotland the Brave. Those are the two songs almost always played in international circumstances where national anthems are played and Scotland is represented as Scotland. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:44, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The difference between convention in the United Kingdom and 'official' status in countries in which it is necessary for everything to be set in stone is next to nil. God Save the Queen is Scotland's Anthem by Grace of being part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. That fact is not under dispute.

Your argument is that Scotland has many distinguishing anthems. That is true. But perhaps you would like to look at the infoboxes of other United Kingdom sovereign territory which too have its own unofficial anthems for times when distinguishing from the United Kingdom is necessary? Gibraltar , Saint Helena and Bermuda and see what they all have in common? Biofoundationsoflanguage 18:16, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

GStQ is not the anthem of Scotland. --John 18:18, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree with above. God Save the Queen is not the National Anthem of Scotland. It really is as plain and simple as that. It isn't recognised as such, by anybody or by any body. This article is not about the United Kingdom, of which GstQ is most certainly the National Anthem. Globaltraveller 20:56, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Scotland is part of the United Kingdom. Scotland's numerous, unique, distinguishing unofficial anthems are not in doubt. However, God Save the Queen remains the anthem of the United Kingdom. That fact is undeniable and should be mentioned on the infobox. All sovereign British territory has God Save the Queen as an anthem. Scotland is no different. Biofoundationsoflanguage 13:40, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The UK and Scotland are part of the European Union. Some regional anthems notwithstanding, the anthem of the EU is "Freude schöner Götterfunken", hence all territories within the EU have for anthem this beautiful Beethoven melody. At the time of writing, neither has the UK quit the EU nor Scotland quit the UK or the EU. -- Klaus with K 16:06, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

That's subsidiarity for you. Scotland has its various anthems, the UK has GStQ and Europe has "Freude schöner Götterfunken". This article is about Scotland. --John 16:15, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Are Scotland's links (that word doesn't do justice) to the United Kingdom not an extraordinarily important part of its identity? Biofoundationsoflanguage 16:53, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

No. VigilancePrime 17:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

"an extraordinarily important part of its identity" - No - and not by a very long way. This really does get to the nub of the problem (and that references both this discussion and the ludicrous MOS (re-read that as edit war) proposal). Scotland has a very separate identity from "the UK" - it has been part of the UK for 300 years - it had 700 (as a unified country) and a couple thousand (as a series of small trading empires that could collectively be viewed as Sea Kingdoms) previous to that. Perhaps this is something for those who are not Scottish that is difficult to grasp, but people from Scotland (and by that I mean 80-90%) view themselves as very distinctively Scottish. Independence rates run at around 20%, but that doesn't stop around 90% describing themselves as Scottish. The identity of who Scottish people are is very distinctively different from any notion of "Britishness" (and having lived in England for a few years I can guarantee the word British and English are interchanged to a laughable extent, proving a lot of people in England don't even know the differences between the two words). Scottish identity is very separate, and Scotland itself is very separate - "unified" really only is in a world governance stage - separate legal, educational, political, bureaucratic, religious, cultural and intellectual systems have exsisted in Scotland as a contiguous presence from England for all time - they haven't, and do not, integrate. The belief that in 1707 the two countries unified and that a line couldn't be drawn between them is a complete fallacy. And the most dangerous belief of all is that any of these distinctions that I have outlined are an inherently nationalistic or separatist set of views. I can't drive home the point enough they aren't, and it seems to have become a trojan horse here on wikipedia that any view of Scotland as being anything other than a constituent part representing 10% of the UK is some independence POV - that is false - tragically false, and it needs to stop right here, right now. SFC9394 19:31, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The fact still remains that Scotland is part of a country (while remaining a country itself) which has the anthem 'God Save the Queen'. I don't really care about ignorance south of the border, or what happened x year ago. All sovereign British territory has God Save the Queen. That is a fact. Any attempt to use how Scottish people view themselves to omit that fact is POV. Biofoundationsoflanguage 07:31, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

"That is a fact" No it isn't - and you have provided no evidence to back up your spurious claim. The consensus here is quite clear. SFC9394 12:46, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It is one of the curious facts about sovereign British territory that, unlike most countries, it does not have any officially prescribed National Anthem. God Save the King may well be used as a National Anthem by many Britons but at base it has no more validity as a National Anthem than Rule Britannia, Scotland the Brave or Pop goes the Weasel. In the face of this it is a bit disingenuous to argue over what must be or must not be the National Anthem of any part of the UK. All we can record is what the people of the UK believe to be their National Anthem. And people in different parts of the UK have different opinions. It's up to Wikipedia to record this situation -- not to simplify the truth out of existence. -- Derek Ross | Talk 14:59, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Which is exactly why I merely added GStQ to the National Anthem bit of the infobox. I didn't replace what was there, I left that! Biofoundationsoflanguage 16:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

As there is no objection to my compromise. I'll add it. Biofoundationsoflanguage 11:36, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

"As there is no objection to my compromise." apart from every other editor posting here - 6 established editors at time of posting - if you can't edit in good faith, accepting consensus, then I suggest you don't bother editing at all. SFC9394 12:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

(deindent) If you don't understand what consensus is, then don't pretend to. I made an edit which was originally reverted. I realised why it was reverted and made alterations accordingly. Then that was undone for aboslutely no reason whatsoever. Just because I might be in a minority does not mean that I don't have a right to try and reach a compromise. Biofoundationsoflanguage 12:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

"try and reach a compromise" -you are very much mistaken if you think that consensus means compromise. Such a statement is a vehicle to allow people to go into any article they please and insist that "my views have be represented here - even if everyone else disagrees" - there are sections in place on NPOV on undue weight. SFC9394 12:44, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

See Biofoundationsoflanguage 13:19, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight, extract:

“ We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. ”

Go and ask 1000 people in Scotland what the national anthem of Scotland is and you would be extremely lucky if you found 1 person who said it was GSTQ. That is the bare truth - end of story. SFC9394 18:44, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

GStQ simply is not the, or a , national anthem of Scotland. The fact that it is the national anthem for the UK, of which Scotland is a part, does not have any bearing on this. siarach 12:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Just to throw something else into the ring, see the following; 2003 BBC Article regarding Official fisticuffs over Scots anthem and official site regarding British National Anthem. It appears that the inter-departmental wrangling in 1969 draws a distinction between a national song and a national anthem. GStQ is the British National Anthem, but it would appear that Scotland itself has no Government specified national anthem, just a collection of national songs. See also the FAQ on a British Embassy Website regarding the UK National Anthem and that of Scotland and Wales. I also suggest a look at Col 3072 of the Scottish Parliament Enterprise and Culture Committee Official Report 9 May 2006 Rab-k 19:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

That's interesting and should be mentioned somewhere. Biofoundationsoflanguage 06:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The Times also picked up on the boxing team issue. However, apart from a statement by a Tory MSP and the correspondance between civil servants regarding the boxing team, I can find no reference to an Offical National Anthem for Scotland itself. GStQ remains the National Anthem of the UK of GB&NI, but Scotland itself does not have one. Therefore, used in a purely Scottish context, I would venture to suggest that GStQ falls equally under the 'unofficial' category where Scotland is concerned and the info box should remain unaltered. Unless of course, someone can source an official document containing a statement to the effect that "the official National Anthem of Scotland is God Save the Queen", should one exist. Rab-k 10:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Official Language revisited again

I wish you'd all make your bally minds up. Gaelic has the SAME official status in Scotland as Scots. The ONLY difference is that the BnG has been established with a view to eventually securing a status for Gaelic equal to that of English. There is no equivalent body for Scots. Contrary to links in the article, GAELIC HAS NO OFFICIAL LANGUAGE STATUS in Scotland other than, as with Scots, under the terms of the ECRML, as ratified by the UK Govt. If the BnG achieves what it was set up to then the next step along the course of achieving official status will be for Gaelic to mirror the status of Welsh in Wales, which must be treated as being equal to English by all public bodies. The claim that official status is conferred upon Gaelic but not Scots is wrong, as the only difference between the two is the presence of a Govt. body promoting the use of Gaelic versus the lack of an equivalent body for Scots. Other than this, their status is equal under the terms of the ECRML. The ECRML is the ONLY piece of legislation under which the UK Govt. provides any status to either language. The Scottish Govt. provides no additional status for Gaelic under the terms of the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act establishing the BnG. This Act does NOT confer any additional status to Gaelic that does not already apply equally to Scots under the ECRML. People should not confuse the legislation which established the BnG with any official status as is being discussed here. If you have Gaelic in the info box, the same criteria apply to Scots and it should also be included. The establishment of BnG is NOT, and I can't stress this enough, a tacit granting of any Official Status greater to that which already applies to Scots. You either have both - or neither. Simple!!! Arguments to the contrary need to be very careful as to the wording of the Act establishing the BnG. That Act is the ONLY legislative difference between the two languages and it in itself gives Gaelic no additional status over Scots. The intention is there, certainly, but in itself the Act does nothing to the alter the status of Gaelic.80.41.244.114 09:36, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

You have spoken nonsense and blatant untruth on so many levels there. There are numerous examples of the difference in status between Scots and Gaelic - both in terms of recognition and action by the Scottish parliament and the accepted reality such as that reflected by times article. Your arguments for equivalence of status are basically OR. I could go into comprehensive detail on the various factors and differences in the situations and status of each one but i simply cant be bothered as they are already perfectly clear. Scots is not an official language - get over it. siarach 10:07, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead and call me a liar - it doesn't change the fact that neither you nor anyone else has produced evidence to support the claim that Gaelic has the status of an Official Language on the basis of legislation which is not afforded to Scots. The Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act does not, simply by the creation of BnG, afford Official Language status to Gaelic. If you compare and contrast the Wesh Language Act (1993) the distinction between the status afforded to Welsh in Wales and that afforded to Gaelic in Scotland becomes crystal clear in that the former has an Official Status which the latter does not (as yet) enjoy:

"An Act to establish a Board having the function of promoting and facilitating the use of the Welsh language, to provide for the preparation by public bodies of schemes giving effect to the principle that in the conduct of public business and the administration of justice in Wales the English and Welsh languages should be treated on a basis of equality, to make further provision relating to the Welsh language, to repeal certain spent enactments relating to Wales, and for connected purposes."

"An Act of the Scottish Parliament to establish a body having functions exercisable with a view to securing the status of the Gaelic language as an official language of Scotland commanding equal respect to the English language, including the functions of preparing a national Gaelic language plan, of requiring certain public authorities to prepare and publish Gaelic language plans in connection with the exercise of their functions and to maintain and implement such plans, and of issuing guidance in relation to Gaelic education."

Direct quotes from the respective legislation and not my "nonsense" as you put it. Did you note the differences, in particular to the part regarding the "conduct of public business and the administration of justice", which does not appear in the Gaelic legislation, and the fact that the Gaelic legislation only has a "view to securing the status of Gaelic as an official language"? The point, which you can ignore if you like, is that what gives Gaelic "Official Status" is not the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act, but the ECRML legislation, which applies equally to Scots and Gaelic. Until you see legislation passed by the Scottish Parliament, which establishes the same principle that in the conduct of public business and the administration of justice in Scotland the English and Gaelic languages should be treated on the basis of equality, then Gaelic enjoys the same degree of Official Status under the ECRML (1992) legislation as Scots. Therefore, either include Scots alongside Gaelic or remove both - your argument in favour of one equally applies to the other. The Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act (2005) does not confer any greater degree of status to Gaelic as was afforded it by the ECRML. Only a future Gaelic Language Act, worded closer to that of the Welsh Language Act (1993), will afford an Official Status to Gaelic not equally afforded to Scots. The ECRML, ratified by the UK Govt., brought the same degree of official recognition to both Scots and Gaelic - now your turn to "get over it".80.41.226.234 15:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

siarach. You may wish to revisit your last contribution once having read the following, from: http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/lang-pol.htm

" PART 1: PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS

PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS – Members of the Scottish Parliament (MSPs)

The normal working language of the Parliament is English.

The Parliament legislates in English only. Therefore, all bills, delegated legislation and their accompanying documents must be in English. When an MSP or a committee wishes the SPCB to produce a translation of a bill they are introducing, and/or its accompanying documents, they must seek the prior approval of the SPCB.

With the prior agreement of the Presiding Officer, MSPs may use any language in parliamentary debates. When MSPs use a language other than English or Scots, the SPCB will arrange interpretation.

With the prior agreement of the Presiding Officer, any person officially invited to address the Parliament may do so in any language. When they use a language other than English or Scots, the SPCB will arrange interpretation.

Motions, amendments to motions and questions must be in English, but may be accompanied by a translation in another language provided by the MSP. When such a translation is provided, the SPCB will arrange for it to be published in the Business Bulletin along with the English text of the motion, amendment or question.

When the adoption of English as the normal working language of the Parliament compromises an MSP’s ability to participate in the proceedings of the Parliament, the SPCB will take steps to provide appropriate communication support.

When a committee produces a report and considers that there are good reasons for it to be published in a language other than English, the committee must seek the prior approval of the SPCB.

PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS – Witnesses

Witnesses may give evidence to a committee in any language. Witnesses who wish to use a language other than English or Scots must provide as much notice as possible to allow the SPCB to arrange interpreting services, subject to availability. Witnesses should notify the clerk to the relevant committee.

When a witness uses a language other than English, Gaelic or Scots, the SPCB will offer them a translation of the Official Report of the meeting or item concerned into the language they used. When a witness uses British Sign Language (BSL) or another sign language, individual arrangements will be made.

PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS – How it is reported

When Gaelic is used in meetings of the Parliament and committee meetings, the Official Report incorporates the Gaelic text before the report of the English interpretation.

When Scots is used in meetings of the Parliament and committee meetings, the Official Report incorporates that language in the body of the text.

When BSL, or another sign language, is used in meetings of the Parliament and committee meetings, the Official Report will include only the English interpretation. A note in the Official Report will also indicate that the text is not in the original language used. Where possible, such business will also be filmed to enable a record of the original language used to be made.

When a language other than English, Scots, Gaelic or a sign language is used, the Official Report will normally publish the report of the English interpretation only, with a note to indicate that the text is not in the original language used."

For a language which, according to you, is "not an official language", Scots gets a fair few mentions in the rule book of the Scots Pairly - along with Gaelic. If English is official by its de-facto nature, then you could easily be forgiven for applying de-facto status to Scots on the basis of that outlined above. Furthermore, your assertion that "the difference in status between Scots and Gaelic - both in terms of recognition and action by the Scottish parliament" does not seem to square with the reality of the situation, in particular with regard to Official Reports, as stated above. I fail to see how a legislature of a country which can publish Official Reports in a combination of up to three specific languages can regard one of these as being 'unofficial'. If it were not an 'Official Language', why would a body like the Scottish Parliament bother to publish Official Reports which "incorporates that language in the body of the text". Or am I missing something here... Rab-k 18:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC) PS A little bed-time reading for you ;-) http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/languagePolicy/SPCB%20Language%20Policy_Scots.pdf PPS Unless someone comes up with a sound argument against inclusion, then on the basis of the above, (once the National Anthem issue is resolved and protection of the article is lifted), I intend to edit the info box 'Official Languages' section to include both Scots and BSL, alongside English and Gaelic.

"Gaelic has the SAME official status in Scotland as Scots. "

The BBC,Times and Scottish Government ITSELF disagree and if i might quote the last of those: The Gaelic Language Act recognises Gaelic as an official language of Scotland

"The claim that official status is conferred upon Gaelic but not Scots is wrong, as the only difference between the two is the presence of a Govt. body promoting the use of Gaelic versus the lack of an equivalent body for Scots. "

Its an interesting tactic you take here - highlighting one of the major (certainly not the only) differences in the status/recognition accorded each language as if doing so and simply saying "this is the only difference between the two" somehow undermines the well documented and accepted (outside these Wiki pages and even here only by a determined few) fact that Gaelic has been awarded a more prominent status and greater recognition than Scots.

"The Scottish Govt. provides no additional status for Gaelic under the terms of the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act establishing the BnG. This Act does NOT confer any additional status to Gaelic that does not already apply equally to Scots under the ECRML. The intention is there, certainly, but in itself the Act does nothing to the alter the status of Gaelic.80.41.244.114 09:36, 9 August 2007 (UTC)"

So you might like to believe but im afraid the afore mentioned media sources as well as the Scottish Government itself disagree with you.

"The Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act does not, simply by the creation of BnG, afford Official Language status to Gaelic. If you compare and contrast the Wesh Language Act (1993) "

Well the first sentence is clearly not the case either in terms of how the major media understands the situation or how the Scottish Government itself seems to understand the situation - as already pointed out. As for the second sentence the Welsh Language Act and the status of Welsh in Wales are simply irrelevant. Italian is more of an Official language than is English - does this affect the status of English as an official language in the UK or wherever (which it would if we follow your line or reasoning) ? Of course not. Different languages in different nations/regions are given different priviliges, rights, recognition and status. The number of priviliges and whether or not recognition as official is de jure or de facto with regards to the language of one nation has no direct bearing upon the official status of a language in a different nation.

"For a language which, according to you, is "not an official language", Scots gets a fair few mentions in the rule book of the Scots Pairly"

So you think but wikipedia is not supposed to be based upon personal opinion, bias or original research which is all you have to support your arguments for equivalence of status with regards to Gaelic and Scots (and BSL - at least youve become consistent in arguing for that as well rather than simply having some special case made for Scots). Personally i think the page is both irrelevant and the frequent references to Scots (hand in hand with English with no requirement of translation)a result of seeming confusion over where Scots ends and English begins but my opinion is, like yours, neither here nor there. What this article and wikipedia generally requires is facts from reliable sources. There are plenty in support of official status for Gaelic and none whatsoever for Scots.

None of the evidence ive provided above is new - its all already been posted on this discussion page on this very topic. The determination by certain users to see their personal opinion that Scots has Official langauge status - regardless of contradictary accounts by the most major media institutions and the relevant political institution itself - triumph over reputable major references/sources has seen this argument drag on far longer than it ever should have.

No amount of original research based on the most tenuous lines of reasoning will justify languages not accepted by any major or relevant non-wikipedia source as being of "official" status being placed in the Official languages section of the infobox. Once we see legislation dealing with and recognition of Scots nation-wide as we have already seen for Gaelic and once the likes of the BBC and Scottish Government start talking about Scots as being an official language then it should certainly go into the infobox section. Until then it has no place there and the arguments demanding its insertion are simply based on original research.siarach 14:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Neither Scots or BSL will be going into the Official Languages section because neither is an official language and nothing other than pov argument based upon original research/colourful interpretations and the denial of unequivocal contradictory evidence has been provided in justification of this imaginary shared status between Scots and BSL, recognised simply as minority languages, and Gaelic. This entire ridiculous argument could have been happily avoided if the section could just be "Languages" rather than "Official languages" but thanks to enforced conformity amongst pages we dont have that option. Find sources equivalent to those provided which state the status of Gaelic as an official language -BBC,Times, Scottish Government - which do the same for Scots (and BSL) and youl have some valid reasons for including them both. Until then you have nothing but your personal interpretation of what various acts actually mean - an interpretation which flies in the face of orthodox opinion. siarach 14:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Siarach - You would appear, like so many, to have bought into the 'Spin' that the last administration used when trumpeting their Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act. Likewise the BBC, whose news articles were based pricipally upon press releases from the same source. Perhaps you'll take the view of CnG over mine, who expressed doubts during the Bill's consultation period prior to its becoming an Act:

"EQUAL STATUS – SECTION 1 OF THE BILL

4. One of our main concerns is the absence in the Bill of recognition of equal status between Gaelic and English. We believe that the Bill should specifically state that Gaelic is an official language in Scotland and will, in principle, be treated equally with English in the conduct of public business, through the language plans required of public authorities. This principle recognises the importance which the Executive has placed on the Gaelic language and culture being " important to all of Scotland and is a unique part of our culture and heritage". CnaG has consistently argued for Gaelic to be accorded the same status as Welsh in terms of the Welsh Language Act 1993. This would, in the case of Gaelic, give effect to the principle that so far as is appropriate and practicable Gaelic and English will be treated on the basis of equality, in the provision of public services. If it is possible for the Welsh Act to have the wording “so far as is both appropriate in the circumstances and reasonably practicable to the principle that in the conduct of public business and the administration of justice in Wales the English and Welsh languages should be treated on the basis of equality” it should be possible to have a similar provision in a Gaelic Act. It is interesting to note that the Welsh Language Board recently reported that “today those who feared what a statutory Language Board might do, based on the principle of what is both appropriate in the circumstances and reasonably practical” are in agreement that this is an acceptable method of promoting the language. This approach is generally regarded as one which provides the necessary flexibility and sensitivity in offering a realistic solution which takes account of local circumstances, the need to provide official support for the language and the likely demand for services in Gaelic. We do not advocate one solution to all public authorities' language plans throughout Scotland, since circumstances are different throughout Scotland and this should be reflected in language plans.

5. We believe that unless the Bill is strengthened along the lines suggested we will continue to have confusion and uncertainty in what is actually meant by “the functions conferred on the Board by this Act are to be exercised with a view to securing the status of the Gaelic language as an official language of Scotland”. We can provide the Committee with examples of where Gaelic speakers have been denied reasonable requests to obtain services from public bodies through Gaelic because of the absence of a clear position on the legal status of Gaelic. Response from such bodies have been along the lines of "the language does not have legal status" or "does not have equal validity with English unlike the situation in Wales". It is unlikely that the present wording in the Bill will compel bodies which hold these views to change their minds in the absence of a more definitive requirement as we suggest. When the Bill was published in September, the Minister Peter Peacock MSP said that “this Bill will make it easier for people to use Gaelic and ensure that public bodies – such as Councils and Health Boards – have to take the needs of Gaelic speakers into account”. This aspiration can only be met by the inclusion of a more robust statement on the status of Gaelic to take account of the needs of Gaelic speakers along the lines of the Welsh Language Act.

6. The Committee will be aware that the UK Government’s ratification of the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages provides the same status for both Gaelic and Welsh (i.e. both languages come within the provisions and undertakings of Part III). We urge the Committee to languages come within the provisions and undertakings of Part III). We urge the Committee to in the context of the Charter, should also apply in relation to domestic legislation and similar provisions as already apply for Welsh should now be accorded to Gaelic in the Gaelic Bill."

The above document bears the signature of one Donald Martin, Cheif Exec. CnaG: http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/committees/education/inquiries/gaelic%20language/A_Comunn%20na%20Gaidhlig.pdf

The Executive chose to ignore the advice and concerns raised by Donald Martin and CnaG and published the Bill as an Act with the critical passages UNALTERED!

Is it too much to ask for you to agree with Donald Martin, if you can't bring yourself to agree with me? Rab-k 15:37, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Ive already said it several times and il say it once more. Wikipedia is not a place for Original research which is what you base your POV upon. Several reputable sources name Gaelic as clearly as could be as an Official language and these take priority over your, and any other wiki users, opinion. siarach 15:45, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

You persist in posting a link to Original research. I'll go one better - I'll quote from it - "the only way to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article".

Every contribution I have made to this page has included both links to and direct quotes from original documents from/and reliable sources. It is obvious that you have neither bothered nor intend to take the time to study those documents to which I have linked, which would thereby enable you to appreciate that none of the above are "unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories". References to the Acts are factual. My interpretation of the GL(S) Bill and, (crucial passages of the Bill having been unaltered), the subsequent Act are shared by others, including the Chief Exec of CnaG.

Your attempts to railroad this issue into the sidelines betrays the fact that you are neither interested in this debate, understand fully the ramifications of the issue nor are prepared to alter your position, whatever the evidence, from whatever source. Your attitude towards Scots mirrors that of those who for years sought to extinguish "Erse" completely from these shores. Language snobbery and persecution is not, it would appear, restricted to those whose principal or preffered tongue is English. A couple of press articles and a press release with the now inevitable political spin are no match for legal documents in the form of EU, UK or Scottish primary legislation, parliamentary conventions or published consulation documents.

I once heard CnaG referred to, tongue-in-cheek, as "Cosa nostra Gàidhlig". If the opinion of the 'Don' of that organisation doesn't sway you, I guess nothing will. The term Asinine is not one I would use lightly within these halls of wisdom, however... Rab-k 16:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

The ECRML clearly states Gaelic and Scots are both official languages. It also states this applies to all territories of the United Kingdom. Also, the reading of the Bill above states Scots as an official language. I think the real debate here is over who decides it as official, the EU, UK, or Scotland itself. Wikipedia itself says, on the matter of Official Language: "An official language is a language that is given a unique legal status in the countries, states, and other territories." shortly followed by "Officially recognised minority languages are often mistaken for official languages." On proceding to this article you find the international law on this matter

"regional or minority languages" means languages that are:

1. traditionally used within a given territory of a State by nationals of that State who form a group numerically smaller than the rest of the State's population; and
2. different from the official language(s) of that State.

As scots is used by a group "numerically smaller" thab the others, it should be listed as a minority language, not an official language. Why not just keep the list as it is, separating them as regional languages? (No comment on BSL) Josh 17:07, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

"Every contribution I have made to this page has included both links to and direct quotes from original documents from/and reliable sources."

Yes indeed - quotes which have been moulded to fit your personal opinion on what the ramifications of said documents etc. This is the definition of original research. I, on the other hand, have simply pointed out that the status of Gaelic (which you dispute and thus this daft argument) is clearly stated by major, reputable sources and require no great argument to carry them as they are perfectly clear and that your claims that Scots and Gaelic are held in equal status by the powers that be simply has no basis in fact.

"Your attitude towards Scots mirrors that of those who for years sought to extinguish "Erse" completely from these shores."

Absolute nonsense. I dont doubt its comforting for you to imagine this to be the case and it always amuses me when people desperately attempt to transfer their own, or someone elses, bigotry onto me. I am concerned with facts - nothing more. My involvement in this debate rooted in the same motivation which led to my involve in the almost equally ridiculous argument over the (undoubted amongst the worlds expert orientalists and related academics but disputed by a hardcore of persian nationalists on wikipedia) ethnicity of the Safavid dynasty of Iran or the "controversy" over the term 'British Isles' (by far the most common term with great historical precedence and international usage but disputed by a small core of petty Irish nationalists) or any other edit war/debate which has featured a small core of users who argue consistently against facts or the accepted orthodoxy regardless of how many facts and references are thrown at them. I am motivated by a desire to see articles based on simple, objective fact and untainted by wishful thinking, original research and POV. siarach 18:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem in affording equal status to Gaelic, Scots and BSL as "Regional" or "Minority" or even "Offical" languages and I too agree that the "The ECRML clearly states Gaelic and Scots are both official languages".

I do have a problem however with those who argue that a Government press release and the regurgitation of it in the media carries more authority than Acts of the Scottish Parliament and the ratification of European Union Conventions by the United Kingdom Parliament.

"The Gaelic Language Act recognises Gaelic as an official language of Scotland, commanding equal respect with English" says the link posted by siarach. This statement only appears in a (former) Scottish Executive News Release and is contained nowhere in the Act. This press release formed the basis of all other media articles including those posted by siarach which surrounded the passing of the Act. Let us call it for what it is - Spin. Spin in the hope of deflecting incoming flak from, amongst others, CnaG.

During the consultation process of the Bill, the Chief Exec of CnaG submitted a report in his name which stated that CnaG believed:

"One of our main concerns is the absence in the Bill of recognition of equal status between Gaelic and English. We believe that the Bill should specifically state that Gaelic is an official language in Scotland and will, in principle, be treated equally with English in the conduct of public business, through the language plans required of public authorities".

and

"that unless the Bill is strengthened along the lines (Of the Welsh Language Act 1993) suggested we will continue to have confusion and uncertainty in what is actually meant by “the functions conferred on the Board by this Act are to be exercised with a view to securing the status of the Gaelic language as an official language of Scotland”".

The Chief Exec. of CnaG recognised that the Bill fell short of giving Gaelic the staus of an "Official Language" and expressed his concerns accordingly. The former Scottish Executive ignored these however and the wording of the Act remained that which was contained in the Bill. If the Bill didn't specifiy it as an Official Language - the unaltered wording of the Act thereby also fails to confer the status of "Official Language" to Gaelic. How else can you possibly interpret this???

If, as the Chief Exec. of CnaG acknowledged, the Bill which became the Act was not worded in a way which conferred "Official Language" status to Gaelic, then the only legislation which does is the ECRML - which also includes Scots.

Therefore, aside from what you call them - "Minority", "Regional", "Official" or whatever, the Official status of Gaelic comes from the ECRML , not the GL(S)Act, and the ECRML also applies to Scots, as ratified by the UK Govt. That is the basis upon the equal treatment of Gaelic and Scots which I seek, but acknowledge that without support from other editors, will never achieve. True what they say - "Wikipedia is not a reliable source" - shame...Rab-k 18:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

In the hope that I should cease feeling like the small child in the tale of the Emperor's New Clothes and equally so as to counter accusations of selectivity - links to the pertinent documents for anyone with an hour or two free to read.

Gaelic Language (Scotland) Bill (As Introduced)

Gaelic Language (Scotland) Bill (As Passed)

Submission from Comunn na Gàidhlig on the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Bill (As Passed)

Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act, 2005

Explanatory Notes to Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act, 2005

Welsh Language Act, 1993

Scottish Executive News Release

Times Online Article

Scottish Parliament Corporate Body Language Policy

Scottish Parliament Scots Language Policy

European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages

UK Govt. Explanatory Memorandum for ECRML

Rab-k 20:56, 15 August 2007 (UTC) PS Stemonitis - Don't protect on my account - no change from me without concensus for such.

Current version of article fine by me. I shall retire to my talk page should anyone wish to continue this 'discussion'. Perhaps Government Press Releases should not be regarded as a "Reliable Source", given that the Government of any country could issue a Press Release tomorrow stating that the world was flat and the moon was made of green cheese. Prior to their issue, Govt. Press Releases are not subject to any vetting or scruitiny other than by those who issue them. Scruitiny only comes after the event, by which time they are in the public domain. Beware 'Spin'. Rab-k 07:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Protected

Eagle-eyed editors will have noticed that I have protected this page on account of the not-about-to-end-any-time-soon edit war. I would like to think that the issue can be resolved by discussion and, perhaps, by the study of reliable sources. I assume that the content of the article national anthem of Scotland is not disputed, so perhaps you could start by working out how best to summarise that in the rather limited space available in the infobox. --Stemonitis 12:17, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay then. Is there a concensus out there to unblock the page on the basis that "(Multiple unofficial anthems)" is retained and that both Scots and BSL are added to Official Languages in the info box, or are we going to sit indefinately with the page protected TFN? Rab-k 13:10, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Neither Scots or BSL will be going into the Official Languages section because neither is an official language and nothing other than pov argument based upon original research/colourful interpretations and the denial of unequivocal contradictory evidence has been provided in justification of this imaginary shared status between Scots and BSL, recognised simply as minority languages, and Gaelic. This entire ridiculous argument could have been happily avoided if the section could just be "Languages" rather than "Official languages" but thanks to enforced conformity amongst pages we dont have that option. Find sources equivalent to those provided which state the status of Gaelic as an official language -BBC,Times, Scottish Government - which do the same for Scots (and BSL) and youl have some valid reasons for including them both. Until then you have nothing but your personal interpretation of what various acts actually mean - an interpretation which flies in the face of orthodox opinion. siarach 14:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

See rebuttal in section above.Rab-k 19:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Parliamentary democracy

The "form of government" entry in the summary box does not mention that it is a parliamentary democracy. That is out of line with other summary boxes with for states with similar government. (new zealand say) — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

Scottish Politics and Public Support for Independence

Can I move that the following be put back in the section on politics of Scotland as it is relevant to the current situation and is needed I feel to put the section on the main into some sort of context that isn't all one sided. "the latest opinion polls show that support for Scottish independence with the Scottish people is currently at around 31%. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Movellon (talk • contribs).

Support for independence waxes and wanes with every opinion poll there is no point having a running commentry of in the main article --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 23:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. It has no place on this article. To put it another way, if we were going to include the support on that poll, why should we not include the fact that, according to a poll released yesterday [1], the majority of Scots anticipate Scotland will be independent within the next 20 years, or that a majority of Scots would consider voting for independence in the future? Surely those two equally, if not more important, factors should be included in any analysis? Of course they shouldn't. This article neither requires an analysis of the "current situation", neither does it require broad speculation on what might be or might not be the case now. As Barryob points out it would only provide a POV-fulled running commentary, where every opposing view would come out of the woodwork, every time a poll changes in their favour. I think the way the article currently treats the constitutional position is fair and balanced. Globaltraveller 00:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

But then you are a nationalist and I don't think you are being objective enough with regard to this as you have a personal interest in making sure that this information is kept out of the article. It is entirely relevant as the minority SNP is pushing for something that only 30% of people support. 90.192.2.110 07:24, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

And hej presto, as if by magic an ip sockpuppet pops up to make a blatant personal attack on Globaltraveller ("using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views"). This ip trolling must be knocked on the head, very, very hard. It is my strong belief that we should adopt a zero tolerance approach to the disgraceful pattern of ip sockpuppetry, trolling and personal attacks on this article and its Talk page. This article is being stalked by some very unpleasant characters. Respected editors must show solidarity in the face of the onslaught. (We would welcome the attention of a Rouge Admin or two!)

By the way, I have seen zero evidence in his editing of how Globaltraveller may or may not cast his vote. He is a wonderful asset to the Wikipedia project, having brought at least two articles up to Featured article status, and licked many more into shape. If we allow tremendous editors like him to be attacked, we will end up with other losses to the project, like the nonsense which led to the loss of User:Deacon of Pndapetzim yesterday (himself the creator of several Featured and Good articles).

If you do choose to attack other editors, please at least have the courage of your convictions and log in to your account. This ip trolling is simply pathetic. --Mais oui! 08:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Globaltraveller. This is not a news commentary to be updated every time there is an article on the subject. Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:48, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

The only poll of public opinion that matters are those which form Governments. The rest - food for party hacks and apparatchiks. Shall we have a monthly or weekly update of this along the lines of: "Pro-Independence results"? Me thinks not! "Lies, damned lies and statistics" comes to mind. Rab-k 17:30, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

BBC reference

This reference's only comment on the official anthem is to say replacing GStQ, but this can easily be read (and I read it that way) as a colloquilaism, not as a statement of the current anthem. This has been discussed ad naseum here and the consensus is to leave it as it stands at "multiple national anthems." I personally tried to find official references (such as a Scotland national website, Scotland tourist site, etc.) that explicitly stated any national anthem, and found none. In lack of a direct, definitive reference, the consensus is the, well, consensus, and thus the page stands as it is now. VigilancePrime 06:45, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, the consensus is daft. Scotland's *only* national anthem is God Save the Queen. I'm not doubting that it has patriotic, rousing, national songs, but it certainly does not have multiple national anthems. I'm not going to waste a large chunk of my life fighting against it. I'll let someone else do that. Biofoundationsoflanguage 14:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't particularly bothered either way, just hoped to reflect the true situation in the article. However, having found nothing official to the contrary, (I don't include comments by Tory MSPs or correspondance between civil servants as official), the only conclusion I can reach is that Scotland in itself has no official National Anthem. Only the UK of GB&NI has, and the words of that anthem are themselves traditional rather than official. In the case of Scotland, GStQ is as "unofficial" as the next song. Rab-k 14:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree Scotland has no National Anthem. It has many patriotic national songs. So the current information under "Anthem" isn't stricly correct, I would say. The point I would make is that God Save the Queen has special status. Few things are official in the UK, which causes difficulty on wikipedia among people who would rather something didn't exist. As with all British territory, God Save the Queen is one thing all parts have in common. Biofoundationsoflanguage 16:35, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Scottish Gaelic in Scotland

Mais Oui, I think it's fairly well known and accepted that fluent Scottish Gaelic use is exclusivly found in the Western Isles and not anywhere on the mainland, pls discuss in future and maintain Wiki's good faith editing policy. 194.193.170.84 13:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

It took you 1 minute and 8 minutes respectively to rv my edits, yet my offer to discuss these edits has sat here ignored for almost an hour. This would suggest to me that you are solely interested in reverting edits as opposed to discussing the improvement of the article; however I hope that I am wrong. 194.193.170.84 14:08, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that that you are rewording a referenced statement. Which then leads to the two questions:

1) if the rewording doesn't change the meaning what is the point of making it ?

2) if the rewording does change the meaning then does the reference support the new meaning ?

If you can give satisfactory answers to these questions, I would imagine that no one would object to your change. But in the absence of a rationale, I think that Mais Oui is just erring on the safe side by reverting. In fact I suggest that you read the reference, particularly the section "Geographical Distribution of Gaelic Speakers" before repeating a common misconception. -- Derek Ross | Talk 16:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Scotland the nation?

Why is it so that Scotland is called a "nation" in the opening lines, and indeed thereafter, in the text of this article? Is not it so that the nation is in fact the ancient island of Great Britain? Is it not the case that Scotland for 300 years past has been rejoined to Mother England in the nation of Great Britain; that the common race of our Great British Island as sired from the fruitful loins of our sturdy ancestors, the noble Hengest and Horsa, has for these three long, prosperous and happy centuries been joined in one nation? Therefore how can it be accurate to refer to one part of our Mother's body by the term "Nation", when that term is surely reserved for it whole? The wording is sad, and wrong, but there's nothing I can do. No-one here will stand up for Lady Britannia, no-one here will hear her cry of sorrow and act manfully; no-one here will stand up for her. Am I the only person here of noble spirit, prepared to hear her cries? Will no-one else stand up for what is right? Will no-one here stand up for our Lady Britannia, our Mother? name: England's Rose 19:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

This is for discussing the article - your comments seem to have absolutely nothing to do with the article. You don't have a right to post whatever you want on a article talk page - it should be relevent. If you keep on posting rubbish then you will likely find yourself getting blocked for WP:POINT violations. As for "Scotland as a nation" - a google search brings up 3.8 million hits - and indeed I spend a very enjoyable day recently in the National Museum of Scotland. SFC9394 20:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Why is it "rubbish"? Because you disagree? Surely 'tis a matter of great import to the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by England's Rose (talk • contribs) 20:32, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

"ancient island", "Mother England", coupled with a screed of "cries" that - if I didn't know better - I would presume was satire. I am here on wikipedia to help build a good encyclopaedia that is free, accessible and of high quality for everyone - not play silly games. If you don't have any meaningful discussion to undertake on the article then I will better invest my time doing real editing that makes a real difference. SFC9394 21:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Dare I admit to being passionate about our common motherland? Should I be rose-cheeked about enjoying Chariots of Fire and shedding a tear of pride? Must I shun the gazes of men for seeking to uphold Lady Britannia's good name, or to urge men of sense to consider the truth of designating a land that is no longer so, and perhaps never was, a nation? To silence criticism is to silence freedom, for which many a Great Briton, Scotsmen, Welshmen, Yorshiremen, among others, have died. No more duty can be urged upon those who are entering the great theater of life than simple loyalty to their best convictions. SFC, if you do not honour Britannia as I do, I hope you would honour truth and see the mistaken nature of the current article. For now, I will be silent. I will let other men, stronger than I, take up this, my position; for a reasonable and worthy position it is, and in some time, I'm sure, other voices will be added to the general call for good sense. Name: England's Rose 21:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

As a friendly tip, rather than simply debate whether or not off-topic conversation should be allowed, why doesn't someone involved just remove it. And if any of participant's wish to continue the conversation elsewhere, feel free to do so. By the by, English Rose, you typed: "theater" which is the American English version of "theatre". Scarian^Talk 22:05, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

You want an Internet forum. This page is for discussing changes to the encyclopedia article. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 22:33, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

If you would deign to comprehend those words, you would come to the realisation that they are indeed about "changes to the encyclopedia". Name: England's Rose 22:42, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Errr, right... -- Derek Ross | Talk 23:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, a little rough round the edges it may be, but I believe User:England's Rose has a point. And let's remember to not bite the newbie, but support them into the community, rather than suggest this is a class A drug user please - that's not terribly civil.

I've suggested this many times before, but again I must also assert that a "nation" is a group of people, not a division of land, and so this opening line is, well, 'a bit wrong', to say the least... Properly, Scotland is a constituent country (no need to pipe it so it has a link to country - really guys - come on!), which is the division of land that Scotland is under proper grammar and scholarly definition. Nation = people, Country = division of land, OK? Frankly, as it is, it reads stupidly, and is clearly completely compromised by a core of editors trying to place Europe as a lower and more useful tier of geography over the United Kingdom, in what is another example of "hiding" the UK very existence from the world... we really shouldn't be describing Scotland in any other frame in the first sentence as other than "a constituent country of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".... this is the approach taken by every other majoy encyclopedia going. Jza84 23:50, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

From the first sentance one of the four constituent countries of the United Kingdom I fail to see how this is hiding that Scotland is part of the UK?, as for England's Rose ramblings I do not think it is due to drug use but I am not going to respond WP:NOFEEDING. --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 00:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Quite - I'm not condoning that kind of post of course - a great deal of it is clearly very unhelpful. But what I'm saying is that using "is a nation in Europe" is, well, a bit silly, and I suspect possibly a bit of nationalist mischief. It's like saying "'Earth is nation in the multiverse, and one of the 8 planets of the solar system" - its very jumbled. Really, Scotland is in the UK in Europe in the World - that's a logical tiered structure - "nation" issue aside. Jza84 00:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I would agree that "nation" refers to the people; "state" refers to the government and that "country" refers to the land and therefore that "country" is the most appropriate term in this case. However this has been discussed before and and at that time many people objected to "country" on the grounds that it implied "independent country". Since "state" is plainly wrong, "nation" was the term used in order to ruffle least feathers even though it's not technically correct. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Derek Ross is accurate in his summary of the history of the consensus over the opening sentence. It was actually a compromise. It is my impression that many Unionists actually prefer to use nation over country when referring to Scotland; both in Wikipedia articles and in the real world, press releases etc.

Perhaps it would help if we got off our collective arses and actually properly referenced this article? If there are so many Google hits then surely, surely we will have no problem referencing the nation statement? None of us seems to actually give a damn about bringing it up to Featured status, and I personally will do very little with it until the Admins keep the ip trolls in firm check.

By the way, Scotland most certainly is a state, due to its legal system (see State (law)). It just ain't an independent, sovereign one at present.

I think that country is the best noun. Please note that the word "constituent" in constituent country is merely an informal adjective. It is not a term of art.--Mais oui! 07:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair point about the subtleties of "state" but, as you know, if people get upset about the separatist implications of describing Scotland as a country, they're going to have a tartan fit over the implications of describing it as a state, <grin>. -- Derek Ross | Talk 07:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Some of us would like to progress the article, but taking time off from a tricky FA candidature in place at present, I am in agreement with Mais oui!. What would be the point of spending the time on it when so much effort is spent simply keeping it free of childish nonsense? There has to be a case for some kind of intermediate protection that would prevent anon IPs and complete newbies from wasting everyone's time. Yours grumpily, on a Monday morning. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I couldn't possibly comment on IP contribution, but I do believe consensus can change, and we are required to write a factually verifiable encyclopedia - frankly, unionist or nationalist, I don't care too much if there is a consensus to use "nation" because its a very, very misinformed one if that was really secured in the talk page archives. Scotland is not a sentient group of people, its a division of land; a constituent country. It's just so blantantly wrong - like asserting "The Scottish people are a country. - and then defending it as a compromise! Jza84 11:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

"its a very, very misinformed one" - then you are disagreeing with others of reputable origin: [2] (cached because it costs). It may be debatable and discussable - but it is best to avoid use of strong hyperbole to state your case, since it is clearly not "very misinformed". SFC9394 12:11, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Um, the nation of Scotland do indeed occupy the northern part of the island of Great Britain, so I stand by my points, including that it is "very misinformed" - it just is, it's rotton terminology. Surely you're not asserting that this use of "nation" is the right way forwards? Or using this backwards tiered sentence structure? We're going to find sources that use the term "nation" incorrectly, but two wrongs don't make a right, and we can be better than other webspaces with a little more critical thinking. Jza84 17:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

(time to shorten the indent) Agreeing with Jza84, may I point out that (first) the standard usage in the first sentence of country articles in Wikipedia is "Xland is a country..."; see for examples England, Wales, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Austria, France, Poland, Czech Republic, Spain, and Portugal (though Switzerland anomalously uses nation): (second) Scotland is commonly described as a country- see all the examples in Talk:Country#Examples of official use in British English, illustrating how the word country is used (the Scottish government examples were Labour/LibDem, if that matters)- but I don't think equally authoritative sources could be found for "Scotland is a nation" : (third) as a matter of language "nation" refers to people, "country" to land- see standard dictionaries such as OED or Chambers. The archive summary at Talk:Scotland/Archive_Summary#Scotland - A Nation? suggests either nation or country would sit with the editing consensus. As a newcomer to this debate, I don't want to get into an inevitable edit war, but why shouldn't the first sentence of this article follow standard usage and use 'country'? ariwara 21:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Beats me. -- Derek Ross | Talk

SFC9394 - that link isn't working for me.

I think the problem is that the phrase "Scotland is a nation" reads as though it's referring to the Scottish people rather than the country. For example would the phrase "Glasgow is the largest city in the nation" mean anything? Or "the sparesely populated Highland council area is the largest in the nation"? That just doesn't feel right. At the other end of the scale what about Scots outwith Scotland - surely they are part of the the nation of Scotland? Timrollpickering 03:14, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Edinburgh's grid coordinates

The coordinates given for Edinburgh in the Infobox (55°57′N, 3°12′W) point to somewhere in the middle of Princes Street Gardens West. Now, while this is undoubtably a very fine spot indeed for an ice cream on a summers day, is it really the centre of the city?

I would have thought that there were several better candidates: the castle at the top of the royal mile; the palace or the parliament at the bottom; or, perhaps for the more scholarly, the Tolbooth (which is surrounded by the city chambers, St Giles, the Heart of Midlothian and the supreme courts).

Whatever, I do not think that the Bandstand is really a very satisfactory centre point. But perhaps there is nothing better we can do with the current blunt coordinates? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mais oui! (talk • contribs) 09:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

My guess is that it was picked in order to make GoogleMaps display the entire Royal Mile and Princes Street nicely. Perhaps picking a more significant point like the Castle or the Parliament building would move more of the other significant places off-screen at the higher magnifications. -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:32, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Try asking Google Maps for 55°57′N, 3°13′W - that minimal change already takes you right out of the old town centre. You would need to go to tenths of a minute to get anywhere more precise in the centre. And when it is a question of locating a place the size of Edinburgh, that would be slightly strange. --Doric Loon 17:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Correct or pedantic

As I've come across many instances where it is insisted that it is people, not places, that form nations I am surprised this page has escaped being edited.

To pre-empt the dispute: should we alter the introduction to clarify that it is the Scottish people who are often believed to form a nation, or leave it as is and hope the implication is enough? --Breadandcheese 16:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

For the most recent previous discussion on this very topic, please see the section, Scotland the nation ?, above. For earlier discussions, please see the archives. -- Derek Ross | Talk 20:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

GA on hold

This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed.

• Image:Scottish royal coat of arms.png needs a fair use rationale Fair use rationale added Lurker (said · done) 12:39, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
• References should state the author, publisher, publishing date and access date, if known.
• Every statement that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs an inline citation.
• The National symbols section should be made into prose. Done, although some unreferenced material remains. Ben MacDui (Talk) 11:40, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
• Portal links belong in the "See also" section. Done Ben MacDui (Talk) 10:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
• There is overlinking of common terms which don't provide context, eg. border, city, gas and volcano. Done Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:15, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
• Some image captions aren't succinct. Attempted. Ben MacDui (Talk) 11:17, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GA/R). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAC. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions. Regards, Epbr123 21:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Is Scotland a country

So is scotland a part of england or is it actually a country?