Talk:Feminism

GA fail

I am so impressed with the work that has been done on this article. I can only imagine how much research, writing and rewriting has been done. I think much of the article is quite good and that it is nearly GA, but there are still some changes and additions that I think would improve the article.

• The lead needs to be a standalone summary of the article per WP:LEAD. Each section of the article should, ideally, be mentioned.
• Many of the subsections are quite small. I realize that this is probably because the editors are trying to address so many different topics on a single page. However, some of them still need a bit of expansion and there is some space to work with here.

• The "history of feminism" introduction repeats much of what comes after it in the individual subsections on first-wave, second-wave, and third-wave feminism. I would either expand those subsections or delete the introduction. This is true of the introduction to the "Feminism of society" section as well.
• Might you consider including more examples of feminists and feminist texts? I would like to see at least one example in each subsection - it gives the reader something concrete to go on. Many of the descriptions are vague (as the concepts themselves are), so a text would help ground the description. I think that it is also a good idea to introduce readers to the major texts of feminism (I don't remember reading about The Second Sex, for example, but maybe I just missed it.)

• Several of the concepts are only described in relation to other concepts rather than given content themselves. For example, "Postcolonial feminism", "Third-world feminism" and "Post-feminism" look only like movements reacting to other feminisms at this point instead than movements with their own positions.
• "Women's interests and issues" are mentioned quite frequently - always try to specify what these are in the context you use the phrase.
• Might you consider deleting the "Patriarchy" section? It seems a bit tangential to the page and rightly has its own article.
• It would be nice to have more images. The page looks a bit blank right now - what about feminist artworks, for example, or book covers?
• I would delete some of the links under the "See also" section since they replicate what is in the "Feminism" navigation box.
• I would prune the external links.
• What do you think about moving the list of further reading to a "Sources on Feminism" page? So much could be added to that list and a separate page would allow you to do that more easily.

If you have any questions about this review, please drop a line on my talk page. Awadewit | talk 04:28, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments Awadewit, their detail is very helpful. I hope that these issues can be addressed without too much hassle, thanks again.--Cailil ^talk 13:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the further reading section - my edit summary says moved to List of feminist literature but not all of it is notable enough for there. What doesn't get added will be userfied.--Cailil ^talk 19:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I think at this stage I've address your last 6 points - the easier ones ;) - the top for will take a little more time. Also I think even more pictures could be added through the page--Cailil ^talk 19:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay I've now got it narrowed down to 5 issues: 1) expanding the section on The second wave; 2) expanding feminism and society; 3) elucidating the term "Women's rights" in regard to the Feminist movement; 4) providing some more examples of feminism and feminist texts; and finally 5) the lead--Cailil ^talk 20:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Marxism and Feminism

I thinkj Harraway does not belong in this section - I would characterize her more as a post-structuralist or even postmodernist. And i have questions about Gayle Rubin, who was influenced by Levi Strauss at least as much as by Marx. One can cite Marx and Engels, even be influenced by them, without being a Marxist or socialist. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:51, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

You're right about Rubin - that's a mistake I duplicated from the Socialist feminism or Marxist feminism pages. I agree Harraway is a postmodernist - I think it was Robert Young who called her a "neo-marxist" and a postmodernist. She kind of sits in-between the two discplines. What we could do is mention that she was influenced by marxism/post-marxism in the socialist feminism section but put her in the postfeminism & postmodern feminism section--Cailil ^talk 19:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Waves

I like covering a topic historically. nevertheless, I do not think 1st, 2nd, 3rd wave is an objective history of feminism. The article already suggests it is in part a construct of so-called second wave feminists. I think this is one story some feminists tell about feminism. I sadly do not know the social and intellectual historians who have addressed this but I am sure historians have questioned this periodization. Maybe Joan Scott. More specifically, here is my BIG problem: it is simply wrong to emphasize 1st wave feminism with the struggle for the right to vote. Margaret Sange was as important ands notable a feminist as Elizabeth Cady Stanton or Susan B Anthony, and she is the matron (uh..um) saint of the pro-choice movement; she also wrote extensively about the problems of poverty. So economic equality and reproductive rights are as much first wave as second wave issues. Why are they more commonly identified with the second wave? My own opinion: so second wave feminists could claim that the first wave succeded in accomplishing their goal, and the second wave would likewise succede in accomplishing their goal. Arguably, they accomplished in the domain of reproductive rights wha Sanger couldn't - but US feminists still are far from achieving for women total sexual freedom and control over their own bodies. And the battle for economic equality is far, far from over. I do not know what the solution is: either a separate section on revisionist feminist history, or augment the section on each "wave" with concurent, sometimes forgotten, trends - graft onto the history a genealogy/genealogies. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:14, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Your right Slrubenstein. The fact is I haven't had the energy to really get to grips with a summary of the history of feminism. That section needs to be expanded or augmented, and I think your idea about the forgotten or contested aspects of each wave is wholly appropriate. The reason the history section isn't right yet is because I've been trying to kill two birds with every stone I throw here (which might not be the best option for this article). A majority of feminism sub-articles (ie Chicana feminism or Socialist feminism or second wave feminism) are unverified and in often in need of rewriting. There is some excellent work in History of feminism but there is also some terrible confusion there and I was trying to weed the reliably sourced from the original research in that article but I just ran out of steam with it--Cailil ^talk 01:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I am no blaming you. The fact is not that you haven't had the energy, the fact is Wikipedia has more editors who are experts on Pokeman than on Feminism. The fact is, we need more knowledgable editors so the burden doesn't fall on one or even two. You've done lots of good work! Slrubenstein | Talk 10:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

You are right, S, that "it is simply wrong to emphasize 1st wave feminism with the struggle for the right to vote." I added the individual rights concerns of the early first wave, put Mary Wollstonecraft and Voltairine in there, and noted that the suffrage thing was only a major concern for some, and that in the late 19th century and later. I think that addresses your concern. PhilLiberty 22:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Phil - your edits are without doubts improvements. But I was also making a larger point which I do not know enough to address ... but I suspect that historians have debaed not just what characterizes the three waves, but whether there really were three waves and whether this is the best way to structure the history of feminism (I would guess Joan Scott has addressed this but maybe not) ... I think somewhere in here should be an account not just of "the" history of feminism, but an account of debates among feminists and historians over how best to study and talk about the history of feminism. Personally, I suspect that the three waves has become a "myth" of feminism with currency because it has political (and perhaps existential) value, rather than because it is "good history." Maybe I am wrong, and even if i am right it is just my opinion. Have you or Calil or others read enough historiography to know? Slrubenstein | Talk 03:12, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Gender-neutral language proposal at MOS talk

Dear colleagues—You may be interested in contributing to a lively discussion (which I hope will form consensus) here. Tony 15:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Comments

Cailil asked me to look over this article again.

The article is much improved from when I read it last. Here are my small suggestions for improvement:

• You already know about the lead problem, I gather. It lacks summariness.

• Feminist scholars have divided feminism's history into three 'waves' - Just feminist scholars?

• The first paragraph of "History of feminism" is wordy and a bit vague.

• In Britain the Suffragettes campaigned for the women's vote, which was eventually granted − to some women in 1918 and to all in 1928 − as much because of the part played by British women during the First World War, as of the efforts of the Suffragettes. - This sentence is a bit awkward.

• I believe you already know that the "Second-wave feminism" section is a bit vague. I would place "the personal is the political" slogan here.

• In the "third-wave feminism" section, could you give examples of the perceived failures of the second wave?

• I was unsure why such prominence was given to the Anita Hill case.

• The first paragraph of "Feminism's many forms" is repetitive.

• The largest departure from other branches of feminism, is the argument sex is itself constructed through language. - I'm pretty sure this is supposed to be "gender", not "sex".

• At times, I wondered who the major critics (that is critics of the various forms of feminism) were who you were citing; the article often says "some people".

• I still think "Postcolonial feminism" looks more reactive; perhaps a greater explanation of the concepts listed at the end of the last paragraph would alleviate this problem?

• "Post-feminism" is not as clearly as explained as the other feminisms.

• A copy editor who is unfamiliar with the article might be helpful. There are a few dropped words and wordy sentences here and there.

• The hyphenation and capitalization of "first-wave feminism", "second-wave feminism", and "third-wave feminism" needs to be consistent throughout the article.

• You might take a look at WP:MOS#Images for hints on arranging the images. I agree that a few more would liven up the page.

All in all, a very good page on a very difficult topic. Awadewit | talk 07:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again Awadewit, for what are very detailed and helpful comments. I've harmonized the hyphenation issue by using the hyphenated form (please note that some books use the un-hyphenated form in their own title). I think I've addressed the first 5 rewording issues in your list. Also I've reduced the weight odf the Anita Hill case - I may just remove it all together as it looks more and more irrelevant for this article. I tried to alter the Judith Butler sentence but this was reverted. I'll look at the issue of the number of "some people" in the coming days. The picture layout has been reorganized. I'ev also restructured the Postcolonial feminism section - the problem it has will be solved by adding a new head paragraph--Cailil ^talk 22:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

These are the outstanding issues from Awadewit's list:

1. "Second-wave feminism" section is a bit vague. I would place "the personal is the political" slogan here.
2. In the "third-wave feminism" section, give examples of the perceived failures of the second wave? & the prominence of the Anita Hill case?
3. I still think "Postcolonial feminism" looks more reactive; perhaps a greater explanation of the concepts listed at the end of the last paragraph would alleviate this problem?
4. "Post-feminism" is not as clearly as explained as the other feminisms.
5. Copy editing of article

--Cailil ^talk 18:28, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm striking this list as I (or anyone else) fixes these issues--Cailil ^talk 22:33, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

great free image - not sure if you have anywhere to put it though....

From the library of congress: 1909 photo titled "Policewomen - the woman "Cop" (a dream). Suffragette posed to illus. woman police concept." Here's the link. Calliopejen1 05:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Obviously this could also be placed on some sort of related page, but I'm not familiar with the feminism-related articles and how they're organized... Calliopejen1 05:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

A good article?

Of course, this is a "good" article, the article of masculinism instead has suffered a violent attack! Have I to think that this wikipedia are suffered a slanted process o feminilization? You must to have shame for you! --Giubizza 09:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

What is this "violent attack" you are talking about? Neitherday 15:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Other concepts

First off, I'd just like to say well done to however has been working on this article recently. I was editing about a year ago, and frankly, the article was so misguided I didn't have the energy to correct it. (For instance, it was over 60kb long, but had no mention of de Beauvoir). Anyway, now it is looking very good.

One criticism I have however: The 'other concepts' section spends a lot of time defining pro- and anti-feminism. I think we must remember 'WP is not a dictionary'. Articles should only defined words so that a reader knows what they mean 'within the context of the article'. Any English speaker knows what pro and anti mean as prefixes. I'm going to strip it down a bit. Ashmoo 21:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

You're right Ashmoo, the antifeminism section was over the top - it was reflecting some of the problems at that article unfortunately. Your clean-up was needed. I did however de-wikify Sheila Cronin - who doesn't have a WP article yet (which was actually wikified by User:SadanYagci). Will be happy to re-do that if/when she has an article though--Cailil ^talk 21:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

New lead paragraph

As pointed out by Awadewit the lead paragraph needs work to come into line with WP:LEAD. Here is my first attempt at adding to the current lead to make it GA and FA standard. One or two sentences were dropped for being repetitive. The new section has been italicized

Feminism comprises a number of social, cultural and political movements, theories and moral philosophies concerned with gender inequalities and discrimination against women. Feminism is also described as an ideology focusing on equality of the sexes. Some have argued that gendered and sexed identities, such as "man" and "woman", are social constructs.

The history of feminism in the West has been divided into three waves. The first wave in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, the second in the 1960s and 1970s and the third from the 1990s to the present. Feminist Theory developed from the feminist movement. It takes a number of forms in a variety of disciplines such as feminist geography, feminist history and feminist literary criticism. Feminism has changed aspects of Western society, modern feminist political activists commonly campaign for a woman's right to bodily integrity and autonomy on matters such as reproductive rights, including the right to abortion, access to contraception and quality prenatal care; for protection from domestic violence; against sexual harassment and rape; for workplace rights, including maternity leave and equal pay; and against other forms of discrimination. Beyond the West, Feminist activists and theorists campaign for women's rights in third world countries. Some third world feminists or Postcolonial feminists, such as Chandra Talpade Mohanty, are critical of western feminism for being ethnocentric. Black feminists, such as Angela Davis and Alice Walker, share this view.

Since the 1980s, standpoint feminists have argued that the feminist movement should address global issues (such as rape, incest, and prostitution) and culturally specific issues (such as female genital mutilation in some parts of Africa and the Middle East and "glass ceiling" practices that impede women's advancement in developed economies) in order to understand how gender inequality interacts with racism, homophobia, lesbophobia, colonialism, and classism in a "matrix of domination."

I'm personally unhappy with using a term like "beyond the west" - if anyone can suggest a better term please do--Cailil ^talk 12:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I think this is pretty good. I hate the passive voice and wich I knew who introduced the idea of three waves of feminism - personally, I think it is bad historiography, but i acknowledge it is the main way Western scholars talk about the history of feminism; still, I would feel better if it could be pegged to an identifiable source. About the "beyond the West," I share your feelings and I see no way around it that is not awkward. For what it is worth, here is how I would put it:

Throughout most of its history, most leaders of feminist social and political movements, and feminist theorists, have been middle-class white women, predominantly in the US, France, and US. At least since Sojourner Truth's 1851 speech to US Feminists, however, women of color have proposed alternative feminisms. This trend accelerated in the 1960s with the Civil Rights movement in the United States and the collapse of European colonialism in Africa and Southeast Asia. Since that time, women in former European colonies and other countries forming the Non-Aligned Movement have proposed alternative "post-colonial" and "Third World" feminisms as well.

Wordier, but as concise as I can make it and I think more precise and informative and (I hope!!!) accurate. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:11, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I like your version Slrubenstein - I think we should use it. I'm not the biggest fan of "the waves" structuring of feminism either but that's the way most books look at it. An alternative which User:Dimitrisdad put forward on Talk:Equity feminism is that we list the history chronologically and then explain the historiographies (ie the waves and the Hoff Sommers idea Gender/Equity feminism) afterwards. Personally I think we could think about that way of writing the history for the history section and use this.--Cailil ^talk 13:33, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! And to clarify - i do not object to using the "waves" as long as we can identify who coined or popularized the terms, i.e. "According to X, ... " I would never use Sommers classification alone, but if it is presented as one of a few major ways of classifying feminism i.d. if it is presented alongside one or two other models, I have no objections. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:46, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I share your view about Sommers's classifications. The weight of her position is not equal to the "waves" concept. BTW I'll look into who coined the "waves" terminology now - it was Marsha Lear who coined the term "second wave" and out of that came the classification of the previous generation as 1st wavers. The third wave was Rebecca Walker's term in her Ms article. So really the waves theory is popular by osmosis--Cailil ^talk 14:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

In the intro, change it to, "According to some, the history of feminism consists of three waves" and provide as a "ref" endnote the citations for Lear and Walker. In the body of the article, mention them by name and quote their original definitions for each wave - that's how I would handle it. (good job with research, by the way!) Slrubenstein | Talk 14:48, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay it's gone in. Its not perfect (yet) but its a start. I changed your line "women in former European colonies and other countries forming the Non-Aligned Movement have proposed alternative "post-colonial" and "Third World" feminisms as well." to "Since that time, women in former European colonies and the developing world have proposed alternative "post-colonial" and "Third World" feminisms as well." - I'm not delighted about using "developing world but I'm cagey about linking (even unintentionally & indirectly) the Non-aligned movement and feminism - I see the point but if we have people requiring us to source "Feminism is also described as an ideology focusing on equality of the sexes" it would come under heavy fire.--Cailil ^talk 19:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Before I forget, I'd also like to come up with a very short sentence summarizing the "feminisms" concept--Cailil ^talk 19:39, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, offhand I would say "from Non-Aligned countries" is more in keeping with the spirit of NPOV because it is how those countries identified themselves, whereas "undeveloped" and "third world" takes the view ("standpoint!") of the West. However, the real Q. is how they define themselves. Mohanty uses 3rd world; so does Trinh. SO, let;s change it to Third World, okay? Slrubenstein | Talk 20:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

That's perfect :) Thanks for working on this Slrubenstein--Cailil ^talk 20:27, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

What about the fact that many feminists are sexist against men

is that in this article. most feminists i know degrade men and bitch about how ALL men are terrible. this needs to be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.18.169.159 (talk) 05:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

we have to remain neutral. there will probably be an article on "the response of feminism" or the "criticism of feminism" or something like that one day you can help make it. there will be nothing about that in this article because the liberals will say it not neutral no matter how true it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.106.230.196 (talk) 00:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

abortion is not a right

ok so the lead paragraph says

Feminist political activists have been concerned with issues such as a woman's right of contract and property, a woman's right to bodily integrity and autonomy (especially on matters such as reproductive rights, including the right to abortion

the way it is worded it says abortion is a right. can you guys please change it so it say "feminists fight for the legalization of abortion" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.106.230.196 (talk) 21:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you change it? Find a reliable source: "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", states Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Or if not, mark the passage that offends you with the {{fact}} template, so the author is then obliged to reference it or change it. If you don't like the given reference, see WP:Templates. Tom 22:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

it depends what you call a right. just because the bill of rights say you have the right of hate speech doesnt mean it true. you can never really prove you have any rights. i dont think abortion is a natural right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_right

just change it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.106.230.196 (talk) 00:08, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

User:69.106.230.196 don’t get confused. This article is not asserting that abortion is or is not a right. The line reads “ Feminist political activists have been concerned with issues such as a woman's right of contract and property, a woman's right to bodily integrity and autonomy (especially on matters such as reproductive rights, including the right to abortion, access to contraception and quality prenatal care); for protection from domestic violence; against sexual harassment and rape” This is easily sourced since it is saying that some feminists campaign for the right to abortion as well as other issues (see Daring to Be Bad: Radical Feminism in America, 1967-1975 by Alice Echols or At the Heart of Freedom: Feminism, Sex, and Equality By Drucilla Cornell p. x, or a number of other books). Also I will remind you 69.106.230.196 that wikipedia is not a soapbox – this is not the place to attempt to start a debate on abortion.--Cailil ^talk 14:36, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Cailil! That is a much needed clarification on 'rights' as well as fact checking. So often inside and outside of matters acedemic, we do not check to see what was actually written before we comment.

I would also add (in answer to the odd and random comment) that all speech, even unfortunate "hate speech", is a right gauranteeded in the US. ---- NJMEssmer1976, 14 OCT 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by NJMessmer1976 (talk • contribs) 16:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

ah-hem~ i was who brought it up but anyways i dont think you can scientifically prove that abortion is a right. the fact of the matter is the the statement is not neutral about abortion. it should be changed to make it more neutral. you can get rid of it, it is not even important overall in the article. a better statement is

"Feminist political activists have been concerned with issues such as a woman's right of contract and property, a woman's right to bodily integrity and autonomy (especially on matters such as reproductive rights, including the legalization and sustainment of abortion, access to contraception and quality prenatal care)...."69.106.250.135 01:51, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

69.106.250.135 this is getting tendentious. Unless there is a major significant source that contradicts the existing references (which say that "Feminism campaigns for the right to abortion") your argument is going nowhere. Wikipedia requires reliable sources and consensus for edits. Also you have already been warned that wikipedia is not a soapbox[1] - if this behaviour continues you may be blocked--Cailil ^talk 18:04, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia. Why do people feel the need to air their opinions in this way? What is your point 69.106.250.135? Wouldn't starting a blog be more appropriate? Tom 18:52, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I do think it would be more helpful if this argument were held on this page rather than on mine and Cailil's Talk pages. I think I have understood 69.106.250.135's problem. Could I please ask him or her to consider the difference between the following phrases:

• feminists have been fighting to obtain the right of abortion.
• feminists have been fighting to obtain the political right of access to abortion.

If you look at your Wiki reference quoted above, the mention is made therein, of the difference between natural right and political right. Are you sure your judgement is not being clouded by "strongly held beliefs"? Don't forget, that if you are taking issue with the notion of political right, this constitutes WP:POV. If you look around Wikipedia, I hope you will notice that in spite of the potential for political controversy, the Feminism article is one of the most neutral, rational and encyclopedic around. (I didn't write any of it, so this is not self interest on my part.) Tom 08:46, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I think this is just another case of a newbie who doesn't understand our NPOV and V polciies. Anonymous user 69, please read over WP:NPOV and WP:V carefullly - if there is something you do not understand, you can ask for clarification ont he policy talk pae. Then feel free to come back here and I think what Cahil and Tom and others have said will make more sense to you. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:13, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

anarcha-feminism

An editor just changed the cited reference about anarcha-feminism to eliminate the struggle against capitalism in deference to self-identified anarcho-capitalists. Without getting into the tedious argument that anarcho-capitalists are or are not "anarchists", let me simply note that the cited reference is about the strand of anarchism that is anti-capitalist as well as anti-state, and that is the description of anarcha-feminist. If this or other editors can find citable references to an anarcha-feminist split that parallales the anarchist/anarcho-capitalist split, then by all means, include them and discussion of the split within anarcha-feminism. So far as I know, however, anarcha-feminism as a strand is anti-capitalist along with anti-capitalist anarchism. Another appropriate approach would be to note the anarchist/anarcho-capitalist split in the text, but in my view that is a distraction from an article that is primarily about feminism. The link to the anarchism article explains fairly clearly the various arguments about capitalism. --lquilter 16:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely! Slrubenstein | Talk 18:34, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Lquilter wrote, "So far as I know, however, anarcha-feminism as a strand is anti-capitalist along with anti-capitalist anarchism." Probably the most famous anarcha-feminist today, and most prolific writer, is Wendy McElroy. She is an anarcho-capitalist (though she prefers to self-label "individualist anarchist.") So I strongly object to characterizing anarcha-feminism as anti-capitalist only. PhilLiberty 03:10, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Do individualist feminists (in the McElroy sense) consider themselves anarcha-feminists? A quick google didn't turn up anything connecting anarcha-feminism and individualist feminists. That there are some feminists who are also anarchists who are not anti-capitalist doesn't entail that anarcha-feminism isn't anti-capitalist. VoluntarySlave 04:10, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello, I'm the editor that did that. The way that line read was the "anarchist struggle against...capitalism" as if it were implying all types of anarchism. I would have no qualms if it were a bit more specific and replaced the more general "Anarchist" term with "Anarcha-feminist". As for what VoluntarySlave is bringing up, I admit I'm not an expert on the matter, so I won't enter that debate. I just wanted to make sure that the idea conveyed in the sentence didn't gloss over the entire "Are Anarcho-capitalists anarchists?" debate. Fephisto —Preceding comment was added at 15:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

"Glossing it over" is precisely what we should be doing, since this is not an article about anarchism, or even anarchafeminism -- anarchafeminism is merely a small section of radical feminism which is a small section of the overall feminism article. Again, the links to anarchism and anarchafeminism offer an opportunity for a reader to understand the nuances and flavors and offshoots etc. However ....

For now, I left the Wendy McElroy bit in but tried to reword. I think we should see how it sits and if, over time, it starts to feel like too much detail about anarchism in the feminism article, or historically too recentist (WP:RECENT). In the meantime, a few points and explanations -

• Since McElroy doesn't identify as an "anarchafeminist" I'm not sure how she can be "the most famous anarchafeminist". The phrase anarcha-feminist doesn't even appear in her wikipedia article. Nevertheless, I think it's reasonable to identify her as the foremost feminist-identified proponent of individualist anarchism and to include her in this article in that role. (I would resist defining her as "the most famous anarcha-feminist"; for one, how would we ever determine "most famous"? How could one reasonably compare "fame" between any two people, say, Starhawk and Wendy McElroy? Anyway, "fame" is a highly subjective term, depending a lot on particular groups of people.)
• The previous wording talked about McElroy as the most prominent modern advocate. To my knowledge, this is a relatively new trend and definition -- to clearly articulate feminism and individualism, so I tried to reword to avoid the undocumented suggestion that there are lots of historical anarcho-capitalist-feminists. If that's incorrect, let's have a citation for the historical work. Similarly, the previous wording talked about it as if there were two coequal "branches". That's not accurate; those who have self-defined as "anarcha-feminists" have been largely from the (anti-capitalist) anarchist tradition. (Of course, anarchists of all stripes have advocated for sex equality, but we're talking about committed feminists.)

• Rearranged the pieces together so it flows -- sentences about anti-capitalist @feminism together, and sentences about ifeminism together.
• Rewrote the last sentence about ifeminism as a US-oriented philosophy. Original sentence made it sound as if US was historically "ifeminist" and Europe was historically socialist feminist, which is not accurate; "anarcha-feminism" both in the US and Europe historically has identified with (anti-capitalist) anarchism. So I rewrote to keep the information about ifeminism's growth out of US-based material, while removing the suggestion that there has been a historical juxtaposition b/w US & Europe strains of anarchafeminism. --lquilter 20:47, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

More correct definition of feminism.

Feminism is an ideology focusing on equality of the sexes.[1] Feminism comprises a number of social, cultural and political movements, theories and moral philosophies concerned with gender inequalities and discrimination against women. Some feminists, like Judith Butler, have argued that gendered and sexed identities, such as "man" and "woman", are social constructs.[2]

Excuse me for making an observation.

If the above quote is true, then why did feminism just focus on 'women'. The equality of women to men, would be more correct, feminism was not concerned about giving equitable treatment to both men and women, merely to give women more rights,(a good noble thing), but that is not what the opening paragraph says.

Secondly, Judith Butler's quote, ignores the simple observation that male and female constructs are focused on undeniable physical differences. Her work appears to be based on 'queer' or 'bisexual' theory, and not representative of mainstream feminism —Preceding unsigned comment added by Caesarjbsquitti (talk • contribs) 03:08, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

As half-truths go, feminism was not concerned about injustice to both men and women, merely women.

There are a great many definitions, and the one that was in the listing, spoke of general inequality between the sexes; that was not the case of feminism which was concerned only about the inequality of women compared to men in general.

Feminism was concerned only about women, at the exclusion of men. It spoke of "violence against women", not of people, nor of 'violence against women and men'; So it is important to correctly reflect this detail.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 03:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Feminism arose because men were so completely in control of society that in order to achieve equality, women would have to be given as many rights as we men had. That is not in contradiction of the definition in the lede. --Orange Mike 16:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Feminism arose for many reasons, but it was not merely men in control, remember we have a Queen of England, the wealthiest women in the world, then there is Mrs. Clinton. The definition you included is too general.

Feminism was not about all injustice merely those of women.

Case in point. A credit union manager proclaimed that they, the credit union was in complete compliance with the regulations of employement equity, a program that outlines the minimum number of women to have employed. The manager, a woman, laughed, because she was in compliance, AND ALL THE EMPLOYEES WERE WOMEN.

Feminism was seldom concerned about gender inequities against men, and there are and is some today. Discrimination along the basis of sex is only part of the problem. A classic example of an undetected half-truth.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 20:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I have made a suggestion, and have backed it up. Feminism was a political philosophy about the injustices of women, not against men.

Men were not responsible for the injustices of women, tell that to a black man.

Back to the point at hand, the definition from Oxfords details discrimination against women, not general sexual inequality. You are stretching the truth.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 20:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like you haven't spent much time among feminists, Caesar. The female mainstream feminists I know cheerfully acknowledge the fact that sexism oppresses us, too; just in different ways than it does women. --Orange Mike 20:46, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

(what is with this notaforum ? Is this a ploy to railroad in one's own interpretation without any discussion ?)

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 22:04, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Here is a dictionary definition:

Feminism is a doctrine advocating social, political, and economic rights for women equal to men.

You will note the focus on women. It appears that some have 'bought into' the philosophy as if there is only one color of truth.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 20:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Just chiming in: I think it's not appropriate to copy a dictionary definition in to the lede of a wikipedia article. First, there's no need to go courting the wikipedia copyright police. Second, a dictionary definition is inappropriate as the lede for a wikipedia article in terms of style, as well. Dictionary definitions are necessarily intended to be succinct without description or nuance or additional examples; it therefore must sum up in a sentence what, in an encyclopedia, might be laid out in a paragraph. The proposed language is an example: "Feminism is a doctrine advocating social, political, and economic rights for women equal to men" (dictionary) versus "Feminism is an ideology focusing on equality of the sexes" (wikipedia). More specific comparisons of the two:

• The first sentence encapsulates the discussion of the historical gender biases that are discussed at greater length in the wikipedia article. It's not a terrible idea, if we need to revise the lede sentence, but I don't think it's necessary to do it, either.
• Change from "ideology" to "doctrine" I think is incorrect. (Although neither are great.) Ideology refers generally to a belief system, which is more accurate in terms of "feminism"; "doctrine" suggests documents or an authorizing body, which is not accurate.
• "equality of the sexes" versus "rights for women equal to men" - Aside from the awkward phrasing of the latter, the former is a more elegant and concise way of saying the same. It also avoids the inevitable arguing over "social, political, and economic" (should we also include cultural? socio-cultural? linguistic? reproductive? familial? religious? etc.)

--lquilter 21:01, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

"Feminism is an ideology focusing on equality of the sexes" suggests women and men have equal rights; that was not feminism. It was more that women have equal rights to men; there is a small difference. One is part of the other.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 22:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure that if I were to break this down to its philosophical constructs that there would be an actual difference. A=B is pretty much the same as A=B. Your nuance captures something of the historical progression (that men were elevated over women) but I think that's plain throughout the article. I'm not sure what's gained from putting this in the lede. Do you think someone would come away from the article confused about the fact that feminism was a movement to give women "equal rights", meaning, give women rights equal to those already enjoyed by men? --lquilter 03:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Guys, please humor me and at least spell English words correctly! Slrubenstein | Talk 05:44, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Are you concerned about "lede"? It's the first paragraph or few paragraphs of an article; maybe more familiar for journalism, but it's entirely correct here (despite the more common practice of spelling it "lead" like the verb). --lquilter 12:19, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I am afraid you are wrong. Lede is not a modern English word. It does not appear at all in the American heritage Dictionary, and it appears in the OED only as a variant of the word used in Beowulf to mean "people." The correct spelling is "lead." Slrubenstein | Talk 13:03, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

It's journalists' jargon, picked up and used here in Wikipedia (see lede (news). --Orange Mike 14:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

You can also go to google and type "define:lede"; it pulls up definitions from a number of dictionaries. --lquilter 15:49, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Caesar, Orangemike and Lquilter are correct. I would also point out that the manual of style recommends avoiding trite expression: in order words concise sentences are better than convoluted ones. Also your addition "Feminism is a doctrine advocating social, political, and economic rights for women equal to men" - is not grammatical in English.
There are a number of problems with your contention. First, you said "feminism was not concerned about giving equitable treatment to both men and women, merely to give women more rights" - that is factually inaccurate - your own source contradicts it. Feminism is about "equal rights" (see books like At the Heart of Freedom: Feminism, Sex, and Equality or No Turning Back: The History of Feminism and the Future of Women or any 'Introduction to Feminism'). Secondly, your points about Judith Butler are a soapbox - please read WP:SOAP and WP:NOT#FORUM. Then there's the matter of your representation of your source. When I look up my copy of Webster's college dictionary - I don't find what you've added. I find 3 entries a) "Feminism: A doctrine that advocates equal rights for women"; b) "Feminism: The movement aimed at equal rights for women." c) "Feminism: Movement advocating equal rights, status, ability, and treatment of women, based on the belief that women are not in any way inferior to men."
There is a difference between saying "equal rights for women" and "advocating social, political, and economic rights for women equal to men." I wouldn't neccessarily have a problem changing the words "equality of the sexes" to "equal rights for women." And if we are to use Webster's then I would suggest we use the word "movement" rather than doctrine.
We do need to work on this lead, but we need to do so in a way that builds consensus for changing it first--Cailil ^talk 11:43, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't neccessarily have a problem changing the words "equality of the sexes" to "equal rights for women."

Sounds fair to me.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 14:06, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

"Equal rights for women", is an open statement that suggests some women don't have the same rights as other women; ie The Queen of England.

Or are we suggesting equal rights for women' compared to men ?

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 15:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

The ordinary understanding of "equal rights for women" would suggest equal rights by comparison for "women" with a category equivalent to women (i.e., "men"), rather than "among" women (which would really be something like "equal rights among women"). Sometimes it's better to just let the language serve its natural function rather than trying to lawyer-out any conceivable misunderstanding that might be based on poor literacy or other problems of reader comprehension. The more explanatory phrases that get added the more it suggests there is confusion and raises new sites for confusion. --lquilter 17:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Social construction and Butler

I've been trying to correct the portuguese version of this article, but this version should also be corrected. For instance, I wouldn't mention Judith Butler as one of the feminists who have said that sex and gender are social constructions because this idea is very old and Judith Butler has many contribuitions to feminisms nowadays. I'd like to mention that the idea of a social construction of gender is as far as 1933, with the anthropologist Margaret Mead, and after her, with Simone de Beauvoir (around the 1940's), not to mention Foucault's idea of sexuality. Mariana Lima Hannahlima 14:42, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Butler's contribution to that field of theory is the idea that gender is a performative social construction - rather than a "static" construct. She also problematized the idea of 'gender' further than de Beauvoir or Irigaray by suggesting that their arguments were essentializing (ie assumed a natural (or perhaps archetypal) female/feminine state of being existed). While I agree that mentioning other thinkers here is appropriate I think leaving Butler out would end up being POV by omission--Cailil ^talk 15:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

From what I know, both of you are right. Can you make the appropriate changes? Slrubenstein | Talk 15:45, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a bit weird to have Butler up in the lede paragraph anyway; it's recentism at best. Definitely she should be in the article; she's an important feminist theorist. But the only one mentioned by name in the first paragraph and much of the second? That itself seems like undue weight on a relatively recent strand of academic feminism. --lquilter 15:49, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you all for your attention and for answering my question.

I must say that I do not feel confortable in writting directly on the article because english is not my 'mother language', and that's why I only make suggestions here, on the discussion page.

I am also having that kind of trouble in the portuguese version because it is very hard to take Butler out of the main argument. She has helped in defining gender studies and feminism in my opinion, and she has made some very good contribuitions to feminist, queer theories and also to gender theory (if those can be thought as different theories) because she somehow has managed to sythesize some important arguments to the feminist perspective.

But I also agree that it is somewhat recentism, and maybe even some 'gender-centrism' (if I can express it like that), because of course she argues with other areas, I mean, anthropology, for instance, which has been pointing the 'material matter' for a while.

This refletion on the absence of a pre-discoursive - which would be the body, biological sex, or so, from the feminists point of view as I see it - over which there has been culture is as well elaborated by Lévi-Strauss, but he did not reflect it as gender - that was not his 'problem' (interest) - I mean, Lévi-Strauss has realized that 'nature' is a thought that is: There is a nature because we think so, this separation or its fusion with 'culture' are firstly thought, then it comes to matter, it makes sense. I am not sure which part comes first, neither are them [Butler, Lévi-Strauss], but they both make sense because they make sense, or because they can be thought, because they are gramatical, and if they are gramatical they are necessarily cultural/human/not-nature, so there is an unnatural aspect of nature which is its possibility of been thought.

I am not sure that I have been able to express my self clearly enough, but that is pretty much why I think that eventhough Butler has been fundamental for our reflections she is also not the first one who has said what she has said, at least from other areas of thought.

But having a 'mea culpa', I guess as a feminist, as a woman and mostly as a thinker she has made some great contribuitions by bringing the reflection to one of the biggest tabus ever, sex/gender.

Thank you once again for your time and understanding,

Mariana Lima Hannahlima 21:03, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I have just read the modifications on the article and it seems correct, but adding the authors may not be enough to the argument. That reminds me of another discussion I have had a while ago about the 'other' feminisms, when I reffered to 'it's' history, because "It's history is always th ocidental version of it's history', and then someone said something like: "Why don't you stop complaining about it's absense and try adding in the histories you want?" and my answer then and now would be the same: Because I couldn't possibly, there are too many other to be 'justiced' and if we do say that De Beauvoir and Butler have said that we are pretty much creating the reality that they have said what has been said before. But actually, I guess you are right, that's how we create science and history, we atribute the great deeds to great people in our way of narrating it? But yet, I'd have a question: Isn't that one of the greatest feminist critic, which is: What about the great women behind that narratives? But then, I guess, that's that, "the subaltern cannot speak". Or, we can try and think about the impossibility of narrating it in its completude and assuming in the text that it is not ever enough, as to mention its requisites to avoid false-consciousness (or bad-faith, or innautenticity, or so). So for those reasons I think the best thing wuld be to mention after all that the argument is a thought today well represented by Butler's ideas. Mariana Lima Hannahlima 21:19, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

So, at last, I'd take off the part of the sentence "such as Simone de Beauvoir and Judith Butler," and leave the rest, that should be enough, in my opinion, what do you think?

Mariana Lima Hannahlima 21:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your input Mariana. The reason Butler's name was mentioned in the first place was to eliminate "Some feminists say..." - in an attempted to bring the article further into line with WP:V. Removing attribution (the names and references) would be a step backward for the article. I think there is another option: delete the sentence from where it is and give it a short paragraph in-between the current second and third paragraphs, where the social construction of gender can be teased out a little more--Cailil ^talk 03:12, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be OK to have "some say" in the lede, as long as we name people in the references. Actually, I'm wondering if we couldn't find a secondary source, perhaps an introductory text on feminism, which discusses the history of social-constructionist arguments, and reference that; otherwise, we either have the current situtation, which I think singles out Butler and de Beauvoir more than is really warranted, or we would have to include a huge list of references to all the different feminist theorists who have discussed social construction.VoluntarySlave 19:34, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with VoluntarySlave. A lede paragraph necessarily must introduce and summarize some content, and the requirement to have each sentence footnoted is a bit insane. Each claim or fact must be referenced, but the lede paragraphs can properly summarize content that is discussed (and referenced) in the article. --lquilter 02:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, we should use the "some feminist say" then. Actually I just thought of a source that would avoid mentioning anyone specifically. 'Doing Gender' by West and Zimmerman, it's pre-Gender Trouble but deals with the subject quite well. For the moment I'll stick it in as a ref and maybe rewrite the sentence a little (staying as general as possible) if needs be. If anyone wants to look at the essay its on JSTOR[2]--Cailil ^talk 12:48, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I think it is what is possible to be, let's keep on doing it, but it is becoming a beautiful article, I hope the portuguese version gets this energy as well. I guess keeping the authors in references is enough, the first paragraf should be introdutory anyways.

Mariana Lima Hannahlima 16:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

It was not concerned about gender equalities !!!

Again your first line is misleading, feminism, was not about gender inequalities, merely inequalites against women.

Case in point.

A credit union manager responded to a request to adhere to employment equity guidelines. She laughed and said that we, the credit union was in complete compliance, ie 20% of the employees had to be women.

Why she laughed ? All the employees were women.

Again the statement that feminism was concerned about gender inequalities is misleading, and a type of half-truth not yet identified; feminism was concerned about women, not people, although women are people !

Do you see the differences ?

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 18:24, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Caesar, "that feminism was concerned about gender inequalities is misleading, and a type of half-truth not yet identified" is soapboxing it is also an extraordinary claim. You have been active on wikipedia long enough to know what is and what is not an acceptable use of talk-space. At this stage you should not need to be reminded of WP:V (the requirement that opinions added to articles must be sourced) or that wikipedia is not a forum--Cailil ^talk 00:03, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Now I think the first sentence is completely imprecise, "Feminism is an ideology focusing on equality of the sexes", that is not at all what feminism is. What it has been whenever, or wherever, is not the point here, feminism is exactly not that, feminism is not, absolutely not focused on 'sex' inequalities, but with gender. And I guess that's that since Margaret Mead 1933 (or even before that, I'm thinking now of Condorcet, 1822 - I'll check the references in Deidre English and Barbara Ehrenreich (1978) - 'For her own good' ), though I would have to agree that Ortner made some contribuitions in that direction (sex/nature), but that is not the feminism, it is one way of feminist thinking that has been revised by the author. We must remember that we are defining feminism today, in 2007, and I don't think that it is possible to argue in favor of "sex inequalities" today. Otherwise, most of the discussions of this page would be unreal, wouldn't it?

The question to that sentence would be: So one is affirming that there are inequalities among the sexes? Among which sexes (the five ones definid by Anne Fausto-Sterling?)? Based on what? On 'nature' inequalities? So the feminism is against nature? Is that what is been said? I'm sorry, but until where I have been reading, the article was becoming a very beautiful and welll done article, based on research and good bibliography, but that sentence goes against all the argumentation, at least from my point of view. Mariana Lima Hannahlima 17:23, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Something else, the webster's definition of feminism should be revised because it is imprecise and very far from the feminism as it is, or is it not? And I don't think a dictionary should be a reference for the enciclopedia, specially when we have so many theorists writing about feminism for many decades already. Why don't we use the real sources, instead of some simplification as the webster's definition?

Mariana Lima. Hannahlima 17:36, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Consider if u might that this may be part, my opinion, part my original research, (my subclassifications on feminism were accepted some 15 years ago by Websters?) consider this part of my observations or suggestions, anyway this is the sandbox, and hopefully you can improve the article.

Feminism was a wide spectrum of philosophies, depnding on the feminist. It is obvious some were looking for equal rights, some were anti life, some were anti male, some were anti capitalism, but that could be said of any political agenda.

To not point this out and to focus on merely one 'politically correct' ideology is incomplete.

Again the reference to an interest in 'women's only' interest reflect a somewhat "selfish" or "lesbian" perspective of the matter. Is someone against war because it kills women, or that it kills men nd women ?

It was also apart of feminism to set up a barrier to its 'cult like' agenda, by restricting criticism of its movement, through a variety of ways, and that is noticeable by responses to my suggestions; no doubt some of feminism was the work of the devil in that it involved a great deal of manipulation of statistics, terminology, and logic that were part of the reliable sources that were quoted and used to promote this false philosophy.

Proving that the devil lies in the details, especially the missing ones, half-truths.

Getting back to the article on feminism, where are the criticisms of it ? There is good and bad in all things. Why allow criticism of President George Bush, or former Prime Minsiter Brian Mulroney, but not feminism ?

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 18:15, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

@Mariana: "equality of the sexes" and "equal rights for women" mean the same thing in English. But I take your point about the sex/gender distinction and as I said to Caesar above, I'd have no problem changing that line to read "feminism is a movement aimed at equal rights for women." This is tangential but a user who has not contributed to discussions here moved the lines in that lede paragraph around[3]. About 6 months ago A number of editors (including myself) had a long discussion about how to word that first line and we agreed on "Feminism comprises a number of social, cultural and political movements, theories and moral philosophies concerned with gender inequalities and discrimination against women" (see Talk:Feminism/Archive_9#Fresh_start_on_NPOV_progress). In my opinion that is a better first line than the "equality of the sexes" or "equal rights for women" sentence. I'm going to make a provisional change to address some of the points raised here over the past few days.

@Caesar, the criticism of feminism section was integrated into the text of the article. This avoided the creation of POV section and it brings the piece in line with guidelines for writing better articles. You will find criticism of feminism in sections like 'Post-structural feminism and postmodern feminism', 'Postcolonial feminism and third-world feminism, 'Eco-feminism' and in 'Anti-feminism.' Disruptive editors and one particular long-term vandal took advantage of the criticism section in order to push their POV and original research.
Although you have been warned Caesar, you continue to use wikipedia's talk-space for comments like: "no doubt some of feminism was the work of the devil in that it involved a great deal of manipulation of statistics, terminology, and logic that were part of the reliable sources that were quoted and used to promote this false philosophy" and "Again the reference to an interest in 'women's only' interest reflect a somewhat "selfish" or "lesbian" perspective of the matter. Is someone against war because it kills women, or that it kills men nd women ?" These are soapboxing and flamebaiting. I have already explained to you that this page is not a forum, as did Orangemike. I have already pointed you to WP:SOAP - if you continue to break the talk page guidelines you will face appropriate consequences - I will not repeat my warnings again--Cailil ^talk 19:50, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Caesar, please consider your comments in light of WP:NOT#FORUM]; I think you will see that you have been straying into discussion of the subject, rather than discussing how best to write an encyclopedia article about the subject. Personal opinions of and experiences with feminism or feminists are irrelevant and original research at best. ... Just to add to Cailil's comments, if you read this and associated articles you will see comments about criticism of feminism both from within "feminism" and without. For instance, see the "backlash" paragraph in Feminist movement. As Cailil says, segregating criticism into a separate section of an article is an clunky, unstylistic, and decontextualized treatment of a topic. If you have seen such sections in other articles I would strongly encourage you to integrate the criticism into the appropriate sections of that article. Some articles (like George W. Bush) become the subject of so many revert wars that it is hard to make progress on them to improve their writing and style, but that shouldn't affect most articles. Also, in some instances (again, George W. Bush springs to mind), there is significant organized opposition such that needs a separate article. You'll see Anti-feminism is an article in wikipedia covering that topic. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be appropriately organized treatment of feminism and its discontents in the feminism article, of course, but I hope that these examples give you some sense of a good approach to handling topics that have generated opposition in the world. --lquilter 21:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I am just making some suggestions. I truly realize that many people, if not most people are blinded by the whole truth of this 'noble idea' gone wrong, so I will be content to merely suggest improvements, and leave someone else to make the changes if they see fit. I do not believe the world is ready yet to accept the truth about feminism; maybe in a few years.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 22:06, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Citing Cailil and Caeser: "Equality of the sexes" and "equal rights for women" do not mean the same thing in english because - in my understanding - it is always possible to think about women as gender and not sex. I consider that the sentence "equal rights for women" (in relation to men), is different from 'equality of sexes' because the first one can actually make sense according (not against) the idea of performativity ('one becomes a woman'- De Beauvoir) and also to the fact that there are many other women and men (and genders) than what the bifused matrix presumes as sexes (two sexes).

I guess the argument to approximate the two sentences would be based on the idea that one can be different being yet equal, argument to which I agree. I just do not think that the first line of the definition of feminism should be such an idea of the distinction of 'sexes' because it simply doens't apply nowadays, after many decades of gender discussion. I don't think the mention to 'sex' is nowadays a good definition to be in any enciclopedia, specially if we are working on it on the present.

Caeser might have a point about the past and some parts of feminism during its history over the world, but the definition as something about 'inequality of sexes' is not precise. And I maintain my point of view. Webster's definition should be revised because sex has been a matter for feminist thinking for a long while already to apear somewhat naturalized like that in a sentence defining feminism. I don't mean to be rude against Caeser, I just don't think that the sentence 'equality of sexes' is a representative one for an enciclopedia which is being written (I'm sorry for this verbal timing, I don't really know how it goes...) on the present, that's the mention I was trying to focus.

Caeser is correct, in my opinion, to point out that there are criticisms as well, and if that's a matter I don't see why not add them to the text, as long as it is done in a reasonable way.

I will allow myself one more disagreement. I don't think anybody here holds the (so called) "TRUTH" better than anyone else. I believe the great thing about this discussion is that it points out that there are facts with which we have to deal. And dealing with the facts is the important aspect of a public espace - as Hannah Arendt seemed to believe because it is the garantee of human plurality. So I will not accept that 'some people' are incapable of dealing with some (so called) truth, because I see that as an false argument.

The truth has been regulating the building of this article and it is been written always to conform to it, not against it as it has been insinuated. Now that I have said that, I'd like to say that if there are "untrue" facts on the article they must be pointed out for correction as a way to avoid that kind of unpleasent insinuation. I do not, personally, care for 'prayers' on the truth as if anyone holds/sees it better than anyone else.

Mariana Lima. Hannahlima 14:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

expanded second wave feminism section

I've just expanded the 'second wave' section. It's far from perfect but it's a start. There are 2 other issues left over from Awadewit's list of recommendations, they are: the section on Post-feminism and issues with the section on The third wave (the prominence of the Anita Hill case and their perceived failures of the second wave). If anyone can help with these areas specifically it would move the article closer to GA status. After that the lead paragraph might need attention--Cailil ^talk 13:08, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

For anyone who is interested. One of the last issue in the improvement drive for this article is teh expansion of the third wave section. What could go in here is third wave feminists' views about the second wave and their issues with it. I wont have time to work on this for a while so if anyone else can please have a think about what could be appropriate for this section--Cailil ^talk 00:00, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

'seminal' works - comment moved from Archive 11

'seminal' works...

I find this an odd choice of a word for an article on feminism, since it can also mean 'relating to semen'. Anyone else? Just a thought.  :)—Preceding unsigned comment added by NJMessmer1976 (talk • contribs) 04:28, 15 October 2007

comment moved to Talk:Feminism from talk archive for old conversations--Cailil ^talk 15:43, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I do agree, I was thinking about that as well, but from a lusofone point of view. In portuguese we joke about that meaning and say something like "ovulal works"... but as a joke. I agree that we might rethink the expression, maybe something simpler could replace it.

Mariana Lima. Hannahlima 14:08, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

germinal. --lquilter 15:09, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

"germinal" is a good suggestion but a little esoteric. The line in quetion is "Mary Wollstonecraft's Vindication of the Rights of Women is considered the seminal essay of feminism" - we could just say "it is considered to be one of the first feminist essays" - this might be more easily understood--Cailil ^talk 16:05, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, "germinal" sounds better even if it is a little esoteric... Mariana Lima. Hannahlima 22:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I put 'germinal' in instead of seminal as per this discussion. I've wikilinked the word to wiktionary:germinal as it is not commonly used and may need explanation for some users (I suppose the same could be said for 'seminal' in this reagrd as well)--Cailil ^talk 16:22, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Interest in a WikiProject Feminism?

I'm trying to gauge whether there is interest in forming a WikiProject Feminism. My initial proposal states: "A WikiProject for creating, maintaining and improving articles related to feminism and biographies of important feminists." If you're interested, please visit Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Feminism and sign up. Even if there aren't enough people to sustain a WikiProject, we'll at least get to know other editors with interests in this area. Cheers, Pigman☿ 18:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:GS - wikiproject gender studies already does this job, has a wider scope and an established membership--Cailil ^talk 02:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Sex-positive feminism

This is such a substantial article, but did I miss the treatment of Sex-positive feminism? If not, how come there's no section for it? Phyesalis 02:02, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

NPOV

I'm sorry if this has been brought up before, but this article seems to focus more on pro-choice feminism than pro-life feminism. Junulo (talk) 16:01, 16 December 2007 (UTC)