Talk:What the Bleep Do We Know!?

RfM filed

A Request for Mediation has been filed on the continuing dispute over the lead section of this article. Dreadstar † 18:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The RfM was denied due to the strong disagreement made by one of the listed involved parties and the lack of response from several others. Dreadstar † 06:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Let the reader decide

After being peripherally involved in the Rfc on the lead and then following the discussions in here,( and in the larger discussions about other science related articles), I think I've hit on why the vociferous and unending battle, especially about the clunky and unreadable lead, concerns me so much, basically it's this: Let the facts speak for themselves. NPOV isn't about editors deciding what is balanced and necessary to an article, that's the readers job. The editors responsibility is to follow the guidelines and present the most reliable references he or she can that support accurately the article information. I would suggest that both sides step back and really consider this as crucial. If you are serious about this and are not just on some kind of WP:POINT making crusade, a genuine consensus will emerge. This is my final plea that you at least keep the subject summary, concise, with simple, readable language: that will invite readers to go further into the article. Keep the blanket statements about communities, whether they be scientific or New Age out of it and you will avoid this unnecessary conflict.Awotter (talk) 22:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Amen. Dlabtot (talk) 22:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey Awotter, there's currently a mediation over this article if you'd like to join. I've washed my hands of it, but such insight may help: Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/What the Bleep Do We Know!? --Nealparr ^{(talk to me)} 22:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes. This is the view I support, although editors must make some decisions as to weight, the editor must not present material that will influence the reader especially in the lead.(olive (talk) 23:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC))

You are so right, Awotter. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 00:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I do not understand how this is possible, if the LEAD is followed the way it should be. The body should have some stuff on all sides. The LEAD should summarize that.

So, if a person is inclined to see something mystical, they will take the mystical material in the LEAD and body as a reason to believe that this description affirms their prior bias. If a person is inclined to reject mysticism and those sorts of new age interpretations, they will take that part of the LEAD as confirmation of what they believe. It is impossible to write a LEAD that does not produce or potentially produce confirmation bias in one group or another, particularly if the LEAD summarizes accurately a well-written body. Can someone explain this to me?

The only other option I can imagine is to have a completely boring and bland LEAD that says something like "This is a movie that came out in X. A B and C were actors in the movie. The movie is D minutes long. The movie made E money in distribution. Some liked this movie and some did not". If you say more, you might give away some bit of information that might influence the reader in one way or another.--Filll (talk) 23:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Where did you get the idea that WP:LEAD says you shouldn't 'give away' information? I don't understand your point, at all. Dlabtot (talk) 02:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

If the LEAD describes the mystical content of the film, it might cause some to be influenced unduely. If the LEAD describes the scientific skepticism, it might cause some others to be influenced unduely. But both of these should be in the LEAD by WP rules, if they are in the body. Both of these should be in the body by NPOV.

You cannot leave anything out of the LEAD to "let the reader decide for themselves" unless you want to violate the principles of WP. And any mention of anything about the film might cause some of the readers to be convinced in a direction someone does not want. I see absolutely no way to write about the film satisfying NPOV, and then produce a LEAD that describes the body, that will leave all readers to "decide for themselves". Is that clearer? If it is not, maybe you can tell me how you can write a LEAD that lets a reader decide for themselves while not having a completely bland LEAD which violates WP rules.--Filll (talk) 03:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Awotter, you've got it right, and your cite of WP:Let the facts speak for themselves is perfect in this context. To the extent that the LEAD is simple and straightforward, it will draw attention to the fuller treatment in the body. Anyone who is interested enough to come to Wikipedia for information on the film will then fly right past it, into the body of the article where they will find a more in-depth discussion of the film and treatment of it's topic(s) from the various POVs. Thanks Awotter, and welcome to the discussion.riverguy42 aka WNDL42 (talk) 12:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I am struggling to see what the problem with the lead is at the moment - the draft lead that is. It fully describes - briefly - the structure and background of the movie, its main "players", that it was successful and, briefly, that some of the "scientific" ideas in it have been criticized - which is true and one of the things that made the movie so "controversial. Indeed, it is unlikely that this movie would even be discussed here - except perhaps by its production crew - if it were not for this fact. It is not "wordy", it is not overlong, it is not over critical - unless we are to assume the wiki readership is made from "Jerry Springer" guests in which case it is no doubt a tad "complex" or "wordy". Really2012back (talk) 00:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC) Really2012back (talk) 00:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Association with Ramtha's School of Enlightenment

The draft associated William Arntz, Betsy Chasse and Mark Vicente, with the Ramtha's School of Enlightenment, yet I can't seem to find a decent reference for this. Yes the credits [1] thank JZ Knight, but do we have any proof beyond that? --Salix alba (talk) 09:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Salix. I researched this heavily. William Arntz has been studying under an unnamed "buddhist teacher" associated with the school (not Ramtha) for some number of years before undertaking the movie. I've got a source where Arntz describes it, but not handy. Mark Vicente describes his pre-Bleep association with RSE in the interviews of the extended DVD release, in similar terms. Betsy Chasse states she was a strong skeptic of Ramtha when her association with the film began, still does not really believe in the "channeling" of Ramtha, but has nonetheless also taken lessons from buddhist teacher(s) at RSE.

IMHO, the "Ramtha" angle is overblown, but I agreed to include a reference to "Ramtha" in the lead I proposed, in an attempt to reach consensus. Apparently what I suggested wasn't a strong enough indictment of the film's purported "cult recruitment" angle, and I think that's one of the strong bones of contention. riverguy42 aka WNDL42 (talk) 13:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

There is some association which can be sourced then. The way the film looks to me, was that Knight got more air time than you would ever have expected, and other New Age channellers did not get any time. Why? Smells culty and spooky to me. But there is no need to really emphasize it, either. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 00:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

In a recent television interview in a program called Quantum Factor - Dr.Joe Dispenza, discusses the movie, the movie's view of quantum physics, the mind/brain interaction and perception (of reality it would seem). During this he admits that he and the producers, are regular attendees at the Ramtha school, that it was not Knight that was being interviewed but the 35, 000 year old Atlantian warrior/philosopher who's name I don't remember and that the films view of science is based on this persons teaching - who's origins are, apparently, in the ancient mystery schools. Perhaps Pythagoras was right keeping some things secrete. You will find the full interview here. it only lasts 24 minutes and quotes form it would be WIKI compliant. Really2012back (talk) 14:44, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=4182921805952700020&q=what+the+bleep+do+we+know+duration%3Along&total=41&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=5

The most important single item of information there is about a film, is, "Who made it?". It's more important than what the film is about or who starred in it or whether it is a comedy or a drama or fiction or non-fiction or something in between. Dlabtot (talk) 07:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

An outsider's view

I've read the article and this current talk page (but not any of the previous discussion) and noticed that both the article and the discussion seem to be mixing up different versions of the film. There are at least two different versions of the film: the original 2004 release, titled WTBDWK: A Layman's Guide to Quantum Physics, and the version contained in the extended DVD released later, titled WTFDWK: Down the Rabbit Hole. But there's some question in my mind as to whether that second version is one or several possible different versions, since the jacket reads "One Movie: Infinite Possibilities" and the description says "Cutting-Edge Quantum Viewing Mode --includes hours of all-new randomized clips throughout the movie for a different experience every time you watch!" I don't even know if that's possible, but if it is, then the version I saw of that second release might be different from the version you see.

In the last two days I have watched two of the versions, the original movie and whatever version I saw of the later release; they differ substantially. For example, I was puzzled by the reference in the draft lead to the film making a claim about thought influencing "ice crystals," since I didn't remember any mention of "ice crystals" in the movie; I remembered the claim being that thought changes the actual molecular structure of water. And when I checked the original movie again, there's no mention of "ice crystals." In the later version, there's a brief interview with Emoto inserted into that section, where he talks about ice crystals; otherwise the section is the same in both versions, including this narrative: "Mr. Emoto became terribly interested in the molecular structure of water and what affects it. Now water is the most receptive of the four elements. Mr. Emoto thought perhaps it would respond to nonphysical events. --[brief, vague description of the experiments, including the inserted bit about ice crystals]-- Mr. Emoto speaks of thoughts or intents as the driving force. The science of how that actually affects the molecules is unknown except to the water molecules."

Similarly, the assertion that when Columbus arrived on new shores, the natives couldn't see the ships because they'd never seen ships before, was in the original version, but wasn't present in the later version that I saw.

Also, there was some confusion earlier on this talk page about a long narrative at the beginning of the film, about the tension between "scientific materialism" and religion; the confusion probably arose because the participants in the discussion had seen different versions of the film. The later version includes this narrative at the beginning of the film, complete with animation, but the original version doesn't.

At the same time, while some of the assertions from the earlier version don't appear in the later version, new assertions appear in the later version, including the assertion that using something called an "intention imprint electrical device," meditators can raise the pH of a substance at a distance, and that "continued use of the device conditions a space to a higher level of symmetry." Also that subjects can change the numbers generated by a random number generator by thinking hard about the numbers they want the generator to produce: if they want more 1s, the random number generator will yield more 1s, and so forth. Not only can they do it in real time, they can go backward in time and change the pattern of random numbers that were generated sometime in the past.

My point being that since the versions of the movie are different, you should probably settle on which movie you're talking about to avoid confusion.

I recommend David Albert's extended interview on Disc 1 of the later version. Woonpton (talk) 20:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

This is not a review of the film - it's an encyclopedia article about the film which must be based on citations to reliable sources while eschewing original research. Some of the details that you refer to as coming from the extended DVD release may therefore be original research, since unless I am mistaken, all the sources cited as references were published before the August 1, 2006 release date of the extended DVD.

I think you may have missed my point; my fault no doubt. I wasn't arguing for any of this material to be included in the article; I was simply pointing out that the versions of the movie differ substantially, so it's important to be clear which version of the movie the article is about. I listed some differences between the versions of the movie so you could see the problem without having to watch both versions to see how they differ. For example, the draft lead below says that the film claims that thought can influence ice crystals. But the original version of the film makes no mention of ice crystals; the claim made in the original film is that thought can change the molecular structure of water, which is not the same claim. It's only in the later version that ice crystals are mentioned. Another example: if the movie being described is the original version, then it wouldn't be useful to refer in the article to the discussion about scientific materialism vs religion, as one participant earlier on this page was arguing for, because that discussion occurs in the later version, not the original version. Woonpton (talk) 21:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I checked the sources cited at the end of the sentence referring to "ice crystals" in both the draft lead below and the lead in the current article, just to see if sources had mentioned ice crystals even though ice crystals aren't mentioned in the film (original version). It would be an honest mistake if they had, since though the text of the film mentions thought affecting the molecular structure of water rather than the shape of ice crystals, the pictures of the water that got positive messages appear to be snowflakes or ice crystals rather than microphotographs of liquid water. So it would be reasonable to suppose that the water for those samples was frozen before the pictures were taken, even though the text doesn't say so. But I don't see mentions of ice crystals in the cited sources. I'm assuming the footnote numbers are correct. Woonpton (talk) 00:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes I understand your point. In response, I was making a different point. Taking your example of the ice crystals, the line in the lead that mentions ice crystals is cited to three sources Publishers Weekly, Reel Science from ACS, and Beliefnet, but none of those sources mention ice crystals. So the word 'ice' should be changed to 'water', because that's what the ACS review talks about. Dlabtot (talk) 23:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

So let me be sure I've got this straight. It doesn't matter what the movie actually says; what matters is what other people say it says? So if I say that it's inaccurate to say that the film claims thought affects ice crystals, since the film (in its original version) doesn't mention ice crystals, but makes the claim that thought changes the molecular structure of water, that's "original research" even though it's obtained directly from the film-- but if a secondhand source had mentioned "ice crystals," then the sentence would be considered good because it is corroborated by a secondhand source?

The particular issue at hand isn't enormously crucial of course, except as an example to illuminate the more general difficulty, because whether the actual claim is that thought affects the molecular structure of water or that thought affects how water forms ice crystals, the main point of the sentence is that the claim isn't supported by science, which is true (and sourced) in either case. Woonpton (talk) 20:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Woonpton.

• (1) Yes, what the movie actually says absolutely matters, especially to the extent that it presents the works and statements of living persons, we need to adhere to WP:BLP. If, for example, we know that a particular critical statement is either wrong or was applied in an overly broad way, or, our paraphrasing of a criticism is generally pejorative -- whereas the critic was speaking to an explicit instance, then the actual work trumps either or both of (a) the critics view, or (b) a biased presentation of that view. This in the same way that what a book actually says someone said clearly trumps what a book reviewer said the book said someone said. The WP:BLP issues are dicey.
• (2) The movie posits a number of things that are scientifically unfalsifiable, there is no debate I'm aware of there, and this stuff is clearly in the realm of metaphysics. The recent discussion here has largely been over where, in what contexts, and how strongly we might apply other words for "metaphysical", in light of their pejorative impact on the living persons represented in the film. Especially as regards the lead. WNDL42 (talk) 20:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Hello...I don't see a clear connection between this comment and the issues being discussed in this section, but since it was addressed to me, I'll respond. Many of the assertions made in the film are definitely falsifiable, but I'm not sure falsifiability is the crucial issue here. However, metaphysics, as distinguished from science, might serve as a useful distinction in thinking about the film. Many of the ideas in the film could be described as metaphysics, but the makers of the film chose to represent them as science, and there's the difficulty.

It's not made clear in the comment what pejorative terms have been suggested as synonyms for "metaphysics," but having read through the recent discussion I can't say I've seen any terms there that seem so pejorative as to harm any living person, nor do I remember seeing even midlly pejorative terms that would qualify as reasonable synonyms for "metaphysics," so not sure what's being referred to here.Woonpton (talk) 17:37, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

"So let me be sure I've got this straight. It doesn't matter what the movie actually says; what matters is what other people say it says? So if I say that it's inaccurate to say that the film claims thought affects ice crystals, since the film (in its original version) doesn't mention ice crystals, but makes the claim that thought changes the molecular structure of water, that's "original research" even though it's obtained directly from the film-- but if a secondhand source had mentioned "ice crystals," then the sentence would be considered good because it is corroborated by a secondhand source?"

Not really sure how you got that from my comment that the word "ice" should be changed to the word "water" in order to match the source being quoted, who is talking about what is in the original film, which uses the word "water". So no, you definitely don't "have it straight" when it comes to characterizing what I said. Dlabtot (talk) 21:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I've read through this section again; the chain of logic I took still seems reasonable to me. First it was implied that my descriptions of what the versions of the film actually say might be considered "original research" if any of them weren't supported by sources cited in the article. Then it was stated that since none of the sources cited in the article mention "ice crystals" the word should be changed to "water." It would take more faith in secondary sources than my lifetime of scholarship allows me to have, to assume that because a secondhand source says the original source says x, one can assume that the original source says x. Since there was no mention of the primary source in the earlier comments, I don't see how it was unreasonable to gather that I was being told that the secondhand source is the deciding factor in questions of accuracy of statements in the article, regardless of what the primary source says. I'm relieved to hear that's not what was meant, thank you. Woonpton (talk) 16:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Draft proposals

Draft one

What the Bleep Do We Know!? (also written What tнe #$*! Dө ωΣ (k) πow!? and What the #$*! Do We Know!?) is a 2004 film, followed by an extended 2006 DVD release, which combines documentary-style interviews, computer-animated graphics, and a narrative to assert a connection between science and spirituality. The plot follows the story of a fictional deaf photographer as she struggles with her life. Interspersed throughout the film's storyline are excerpts from interviews about subjects brought up in the narrative.

Bleep was directed by William Arntz, Betsy Chasse and Mark Vicente, members of Ramtha's School of Enlightenment. The film features extensive interviews with the school's director, Judy Zebra Knight, who the film claims is channeling "Ramtha", a long dead warrior/philosopher from the mythical continent of Lemuria, who lived 35,000 years ago. A moderately low-budget independent production, the film was promoted using unusual grass-roots marketing methods and grossed over $10 million. The film opened in art-house theaters in the Western United States and won several independent film awards before being picked up by a major distributor.

The scientific community has criticized parts of the film for misleading audiences about science through misrepresentations. For example, the film asserts that quantum physics implies that "consciousness is the ground of all being" which is an implication not accepted by the scientific community but rather is a part of the New Age belief of quantum mysticism. As corollary, the film includes various pseudoscientific assertions including the idea that water molecules can be influenced by thought and that Transcendental Meditation can reduce violent crime. David Albert, a theoretical physicist who was interviewed for the film, has accused the filmmakers of selectively editing his interview to make it appear that he agrees with the ideas presented in the film; Albert affirms that he does not.

V. Rracecarr

• Reactions to Bleep have been mixed. It was well received by many members of the New Age spiritual community, playing in 200 theaters across the US and grossing over $10 million. Presenting many ideas not supported by science, the film attracted the attention of scientists as well, a number of whom have criticized it as pseudoscientific, saying that it inappropriately applies quantum mechanical principles and thereby concludes, erroneously, that human consciousness directly influences the physical world. Rracecarr (talk) 03:53, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

V.Anthon01

• "Among the New Age spiritual community, the film was well received (needs a little more here). Members of the scientific community have criticized the film for promulgating pseudoscience concepts, like a relationship between consciousness and quantum mechanics, and modification of ice crystals by thought." Anthon01 (talk) 23:01, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
  

or for those not comfortable with the perjorative

• "Among the New Age spiritual community, the film was well received. Members of the scientific community have criticized the film for many ideas which are not supported by science, such as a relationship between consciousness and quantum mechanics, and modification of ice crystals by thought." Anthon01 (talk) 23:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

V.olive - Version A with possible additions/addition

• Reactions to Bleep have been mixed. The film, a moderately inexpensive, low budget production played in 200 theaters across the US, and grossed over $10 million. The film has been criticized for making connections between new age, spiritual concepts and established scientific theories. These critics say that the connections, speculations and conclusions in the film appear to be based on scientific understanding, but in reality are not.
  

or

• Among the New Age spiritual communities, the film was well received. or In the New Age spiritual community, the film was well received.The film has been criticized for making connections between new age, spiritual concepts and established scientific theories. These critics say that the connections, speculations and conclusions made in the film appear to be based on scientific understanding, but in reality are not.(olive (talk) 23:33, 10 January 2008 (UTC))

V.awotter - My idea of a simplified concise lead section

What the Bleep Do We Know!? is a 2004 independent film that seeks to explore the relationship between spirituality and science. The film combines special effects and documentary interviews with the fictional story of the life and struggles of a deaf photographer (Marlee Matlin).

Considered a moderate to low budget film, Bleep grossed over $10 million dollars, a success some see as the result of grassroots and guerrilla marketing to members of New Age spiritual groups. Bleep was directed by William Arntz, Betsy Chasse and Mark Vicente, members of Ramtha's School of Enlightenment. Bleep features extensive interviews with the school's controversial director, Judy Zebra Knight. Knight and others interviewed in the film explain their views of the supposed impact of human consciousness on physics and chemistry.

Some members of the scientific community have criticized the film, believing it supports what they consider unscientific theories such as quantum mysticism, and that ice crystals can be influenced by thought.David Albert, a physicist who appears in the film, has accused the filmmakers of selectively editing his interview to misrepresent his views, making him appear to agree with the ideas presented in the film.

V.Kww

What the Bleep Do We Know!? is a 2004 independent film that misrepresents science as supporting New Age beliefs. The film combines special effects and interviews with the story of the life and struggles of a fictional deaf photographer, played by Marlee Matlin. Considered a moderate to low budget film, Bleep grossed over $10 million dollars, a success some see as the result of grassroots and guerrilla marketing to members of New Age spiritual groups. Bleep was directed by William Arntz, Betsy Chasse and Mark Vicente, members of Ramtha's School of Enlightenment. Bleep features extensive interviews with the school's controversial director, Judy Zebra Knight. Knight and others interviewed in the film explain their views of the supposed impact of human consciousness on physics and chemistry. Members of the scientific community that have commented on the film have criticized the film for supporting unscientific theories such as quantum mysticism, and that ice crystals can be influenced by thought.David Albert, a physicist who appears in the film, has accused the filmmakers of selectively editing his interview to misrepresent his views, making him appear to agree with the ideas presented in the film. Kww (talk) 01:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

V.SlimVirgin

The film presents ideas about the relationship between quantum physics and consciousness — such as that the shape of ice crystals can be influenced by thought — that have been criticized by members of the scientific community. Fred Kuttner and Bruce Rosenbaum, physicists at the University of California, Santa Cruz, wrote in a letter about the film to Physics Today, that "most laypeople cannot tell where the quantum physics ends and the quantum nonsense begins." David Albert, a physicist who appears in the film, has accused the filmmakers of selectively editing his interview to make him appear to agree with the ideas presented.

SV V.2

"The film presents ideas positing a relationship between quantum physics and consciousness — such as that the shape of ice crystals can be influenced by thought — that have been criticized by many members of the scientific community. Fred Kuttner and Bruce Rosenbaum, physicists at the University of California, Santa Cruz, wrote in a letter about the film to Physics Today, that "most laypeople cannot tell where the quantum physics ends and the quantum nonsense begins." David Albert, a physicist who appears in the film, has accused the filmmakers of selectively editing his interview to make him appear to agree with the ideas presented.

"The film presents ideas, for example, that the shape of ice crystals can be influenced by thought, that posit a relationship between quantum physics and consciousness, and that have no identified support in the scientific community. Fred Kuttner and Bruce Rosenbaum, physicists at the University of California, Santa Cruz, wrote in a letter about the film to Physics Today, that "most laypeople cannot tell where the quantum physics ends and the quantum nonsense begins." David Albert, a physicist who appears in the film, has accused the filmmakers of selectively editing his interview so that he appears to agree with the ideas presented.

The film presents many concepts that have been criticized by members of the scientific community and are considered unlikely according to sources in mainstream science, such as that consciousness and quantum mechanics are related, and can be influenced by thought. Fred Kuttner and Bruce Rosenbaum, physicists at the University of California, Santa Cruz, wrote in a letter about the film to Physics Today, that "most laypeople cannot tell where the quantum physics ends and the quantum nonsense begins." David Albert, a physicist who appears in the film, has accused the filmmakers of selectively editing his interview to make him appear to agree with the ideas presented.

V.Wndl42

What the Bleep Do We Know is a 2004 documentary film that was followed by an extended 2006 DVD release that presents the conflict between Scientific Materialism and Spirituality in the context of a metaphysical interpretation of Quantum Physics, in which "consciousness is the ground of all being". Created by physicist and filmmaker William Arntz, the film showcases a group of scientists, philosophers, doctors and New Age "channeler" Ramtha who are represent minority, and in some cases pseudoscientific views that are mostly sympathetic to representing the film's assertion that individuals can "co-create" thier subjective realities based on the idea that the universe is composed of "thoughts or ideas", rather than matter and energy.

WNDL42 (talk) 00:13, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Other suggestions

• Suggestion A. Among the New Age spiritual community, the film was well received. Members of the scientific community have criticized the film for promulgating pseudoscience.
• Suggestion B. Among the New Age spiritual community, the film was well received. Members of the scientific community have criticized the film for presenting many ideas which are not supported by science, such as that consciousness and quantum mechanics are related, and that ice crystals can be influenced by thought.
• Suggestion C. Among the New Age spiritual community, the film was well received. Members of the scientific community have criticized the film for presenting many ideas which are not supported by science, such as that consciousness and quantum mechanics are related, and that ice crystals can be influenced by thought. Physicist David Albert, who was interviewed for the film, has accused the filmmakers of selectively editing his interview to make it appear that he agrees with the ideas presented in the film
• Suggestion D. Among the New Age spiritual community, the film was well received. Members of the scientific community have criticized the film for presenting many pseudoscientific ideas such as that consciousness and quantum mechanics are related, and that ice crystals can be influenced by thought. Physicist David Albert, who was interviewed for the film, has accused the filmmakers of selectively editing his interview to make it appear that he agrees with the ideas presented in the film
• Suggestion E. Among the New Age spiritual community, the film was well received. Members of the scientific community have criticized the film for presenting many ideas which are not supported by science, such as that consciousness and quantum mechanics are related, and that ice crystals can be influenced by thought.
• Suggestion F. Among the New Age spiritual community, the film was well received. Members of the scientific community have criticized the film for presenting many pseudoscientific ideas such as that consciousness and quantum mechanics are related, and that ice crystals can be influenced by thought.
• Suggestion G. Among the New Age spiritual community, the film was well received. Members of the scientific community have criticized the film for presenting many ideas which are not supported by science. Physicist David Albert, who was interviewed for the film, has accused the filmmakers of selectively editing his interview to make it appear that he agrees with the ideas presented in the film.
• Suggestion H. The film had a mixed reception, with members of the scientific community criticizing it for presenting as fact many ideas which are not supported by science such as parts of the film's presentation of quantum physics (see quantum mysticism) and ideas that ice crystals can be influenced by thought or transcendental meditation can reduce violent crime. Scientists have expressed concern that the pseudoscience found in the film has the effect of misleading the audience about science. Physicist David Albert, who was interviewed for the film, has accused the filmmakers of selectively editing his interview to make it appear that he agrees with the ideas presented in the film when in fact he does not.

Moving forward

With the RfM rejected, I hope we can find consensus here on the talk page without the assistance of a mediator. I've collected the recent draft proposals to discuss. With the number of proposals, I suggest we move them off to a sandbox so they can be better managed. If there are no objections, I'll do this tomorrow. Dreadstar † 07:00, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

There appears to be no consensus for any of the draft proposals above. We need to find a consensus version before implementing any of these drafts. I've created a new Bleep sandbox to discuss all these proposed versions. Dreadstar † 22:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I've tried to take a break from looking at this thing for a while. I'll try to be less obstinate, if people will try to bear my main concern in mind ... a lead that accurately describes the kind and level of criticism this thing has received. The phrasings that people keep coming up with make this thing sound like An Inconvenient Truth, a film which also received criticism from some scientists. That, however, was a completely different kind of thing ... most scientists that criticised it went after it for overstating its case, but acknowledged that there was a basis for its views. There were some that attacked it viciously, but those are generally considered to represent fringe views. This is a very dissimilar case, in that the praise comes form those representing fringe views, and the criticism from the mainstream is that it distorts things beyond reason and does make stuff up. That is not conveyed by "some scientists criticize ...".Kww (talk) 02:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with that. I was all for some of the intros which you would have liked, except that you and others insisted that it had to just state the thing as fact, instead of attributing in some way "the film has been harshly criticized as pseudoscientific balderdash by scientists such as X" would be fine with me. Whether or not we use that wording depends on how much you want to drive the reader away. If you don't care that a moderate reader will then be inclined to discount the criticism, I don't mind putting that in- honestly, I don't mind. If you want to be most convincing, however, you will use moderate language, and I think that would make others here happier. But I am satisified with anything that adheres to the rules of WP. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 06:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

And don't really care that much about unencyclopedic language unless the impression it creates will actually bias the reader relative to the subject. Using this language in this particular case will only bias the reader against the person making the criticism, and won't effect the evaluation of the movie itself: that will be left to the facts. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 08:10, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

You've really hit on the crux of the dispute: whether the article is going to be written by following WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:RS, etc., giving the reader the chance to reach the inescapable conclusion that the movie is pseudoscientific balderdash, or whether the article is going to be written with an omniscient voice, telling the reader that the movie is pseudoscientific balderdash. Dlabtot (talk) 08:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, and WP:LEAD. Personally, I'm not as fixated on policy as on not leading the reader with anything but neutral presentation of facts. Letters from the Earth here. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 09:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

If the film contains "balderdash", then that's what the article should say (reworded for professionalism, of course). How a hypothetical reader reacts to straight written language is their own business, not ours. Jefffire (talk) 09:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I consider myself an observer here rather than a participant, but in the process of observing I've given some thought to it, and I don't know how this question can be resolved. On the one hand if I were editing this page I would be arguing against the use of a word like "pseudoscience" since it's a label whose meaning isn't inherently obvious (I would prefer the phrase "not supported by science" which is unambiguous). But in order for the reader to be able to decide on their own whether the information is not supported by science, they would need to be shown how each of the claims in the movie aren't supported by science, which would probably fall outside the brief of this article. At the same time, I agree that "some scientists criticize" doesn't adequately convey the nonsupport of science for the ideas portrayed.

If the quantum mysticism article went into the beliefs contained in quantum mysticism and explained how each of them deviates from the actual findings and conclusions of quantum physics, then that article could be cited for further reading. But as it is, the quantum mysticism article isn't informative enough to help anyone understand the difference between actual quantum physics and the misformulation of "quantum physics" that has been embraced by new age practitioners and post-structuralists alike, going back at least to the Tao of Physics, and that the film is based in. This misformulation is a mishmash of superficial misreadings of terms used in quantum mechanics, unwarranted conclusions drawn from selected findings, and the like. Peter Woit (a mathematical physicist at Columbia) reviewing the later version of the film, refers to it as" the nuttiness about QM promoted by the filmmakers (the usual: entanglement=we are all connected, superposition=anything you want to be true is true)," http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=342. I think it's a major problem in academic and popular culture that this misformulation is so widely accepted as a factual account of the current state of physics,, but I don't see how an article about what is essentially a cult film is going to make any headway against that widespread misconception. At the same time, it would be a disservice to quantum physics to present the ideas in the film as scientific fact. Woonpton (talk) 19:01, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Great discussion. Might I suggest that much (or most) of the film's "science" falls into areas which are (in scientific lexicon) "unfalsifiable", therefore are in the realm of "metascience" (specifically here, "metaphysics"), that the producer's description "a film for the metaphysical left" is a good start, and that from there, criticism of specific claims can be focused on specific claims? Just a thought. WNDL42 (talk) 00:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not standard lexicon in my experience to refer to anything unfalsifiable as "metaphysics." A lot of string theory, for example, appears to be unfalsifiable, or at least extremely difficult to test, and yet most physicists still identify string theory solidly as physics, not metaphysics, as it uses the logic and approach to knowledge used by science and, like other theories in physics, is based on mathematical logic and proof. So no, as I've already said in a discussion above, I don't think falsifiability is the crucial distinction between science and metaphysics. Instead, the distinction has to do with how one approaches, obtains and evaluates information. Woonpton (talk) 16:04, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Good points, no "bright line"...agreed. Can we agree that all metascience is by definition, "unfalsifiable by currently available or seriously proposed experimental means"? Therefore then "the domains of science where unfalsifiability is encountered are sometimes exploited by..." (fill in your favorite name for "mystics")? I think that is the key area on which the current debate is centered. Time to unindent... WNDL42 (talk) 17:12, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

• ...(continuing rply to woonpton, and apologizing in advance if I'm restating here -- not sure what's been archived on this)

We have been looking for agreement on the right words to use in characterizing both the "science" and the "scientists" in the lead section of the article. This to satisfy concerns of some editors that these need to be characterized as pejoratively as possible right up front, so as to "make sure" that no one confuses the "metaphysical" and the "mystical" with "hard science". I would add that other scientists frequently refer (for example) to John Wheeler as "almost metaphysical". The (meta)scientists in the movie and the (meta)science presented run the gamut from the metaphysical "wheeler-ish" to the mystical "quantum flapdoodle-ish". So I think that metaphysical is a good word to describe those somewhat-less-flapdoodle-ish scientific POV's that are in play in the movie. If we think of Wheeler as the "Metaphysical right", then Arntz' characterization; "a film for the metaphysical left" is spot on in that context. I'm not sure why that characterization has been so strongly resisted for the lead.

I'd offer this lightweight analysis of published works from the Google Scholar physics database to support the use of the word. An especially relevant hit from this query is (because he is both in the movie and a critic) David Z. Albert's book titled "Elementary Quantum Metaphysics".

I think we can either (a) make use of the word "metaphysical" to solve this, or (b) strip the lead of contentious and pejorative language (the "two sentence lead" proposal) and then present the criticisms in the following sections. I'd offer this lightweight analysis of published works from the Google Scholar database to support the use of the word. An especially relevant hit from this query is (because he is both in the movie and a critic) David Z. Albert's book titled "Elementary Quantum Metaphysics". Thoughts? WNDL42 (talk) 17:12, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion

Hello all. I would like to suggest that a completely uninvolved person (me) go over the article and make it as NPOV as possible. What would you all think of that? I have this sense that, reading over the discussions and the rejected mediation, that if something like this isn't done, then it'll end up in ArbCom and people will get sanctioned. Just a thought. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 02:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

What a brave good person you are. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 06:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Go for it and good luck. Dlabtot (talk) 07:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Please do. All else has failed. Very, very generous of you.(olive (talk) 16:56, 11 February 2008 (UTC))

I'm onboard with Keilana's offer. Dreadstar † 23:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely, count me in and thanks Keilana. WNDL42 (talk) 23:57, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Please make your suggestions and we'll comment on them. ScienceApologist (talk) 00:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

So you're rejecting her offer as given and accepted above? ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm accepting her help and have encouraged her to offer suggestions. ScienceApologist (talk) 01:47, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

To clarify: Keilana offered as a neutral editor to "NPOV" the article. Five editors agree with that.One editor suggests making suggestions and comments. I'd like to suggest that making suggestions and comments is pretty dead end on this article given the history of debate/ mediation on the article, and that Keilana's suggestion offers the simplest and most obvious, neutral way to make progress. If she wants to go ahead with this ratio of "agree" to "disagree" on her suggestion, I would like to have her go ahead, and wonder how other editors feel. I have difficulty understanding why this offer cannot be accepted, since I assume we all want to make the article neutral per Wikipedia, and as we have a generous, neutral editor waiting in the wings who will make a start on this.(olive (talk) 01:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC))

I would appreciate understanding, if possible, what the objections might be to Keilana's suggestion.(olive (talk) 01:46, 12 February 2008 (UTC))

I'm not convinced that any single editor can get the article to NPOV through isolated actions of their own design. That's simply not how NPOV is arrived at. I'll also note that plenty of outside editors have had input into this process and have quickly found themselves settling to one "side" or another. Just because someone says they're neutral doesn't mean they will be neutral. Please read WP:NPOV and meditate on the fact that it is impossible for any one editor to embody NPOV completely. I welcome the addition of Keilana to the discussion, but note that many of the issues related to the pseudoscientific claims made in the film need to be carefully addressed. We have had a history on this page of people hoping to remove most of the discussion of the pseudoscience in the film. I'm holding out hope to return to the better version of this article that was present before certain editors arrived and started removing verifiable and neutral content wholesale. I see many of these people who have actively obstructed moving toward a better article on the film agreeing to this because I'm fairly certain that they are concerned that the older version of the article will be the one that other editors will find better to work from. Rather, they would prefer if one editor who has no idea of the history of this article would ignore this history and begin to edit from the rather tortured state the article currently enjoys. No, I'd prefer to continue discussing the fact that we need to revert to an older version and begin the process of sourcing. Thanks. ScienceApologist (talk) 01:47, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Which version? Please give diff. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 06:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I will. Dreadstar archived the suggestion already. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Too bad. Yes, I am one of those editors and I have "meditated" on NPOV - cute. You might assume good faith with these editors since they have all put aside whatever their suggestions might be to put this in the hands of a neutral editor. What's to lose. An edit isn't definitive, its a start. I see nothing in the history of discussion on this article that indicates that there is any solution to creating neutrality in this article. Noting that no editor is completely neutral seems a side step to the real issue, and is like saying snakes have scales. How can holding out for a "better, older" version be construed as neutral. SA this article is deadlocked on a very fundamental issue, and unless someone comes in to edit who has not been involved we are in for another session of frustration.(olive (talk) 02:26, 12 February 2008 (UTC))

I'm happy to have her try, but nothing can make someone accept her results. I always worry when someone comes in cold, because while we all want an NPOV article, I know that what ScienceApologist believes constitutes an NPOV is a little bit different from mine, and what we think is neutral is pretty radically different from what some other editors think is neutral. When I look back through Keilana's edit history, I don't see any experience with fringe articles, so I can't commit to accepting her results.Kww (talk) 01:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, happy to see her ideas, but suggest she focus on the "lead" (that's where we got locked up). We have a generous offer on the table, a nice clean summary of all the lead proposals, and I can think of nothing better now than to have an outside proposal for the lead that we can talk about. All of the lead proposals so far come from "involved" editors, and Keilana's idea might just present an option that none of us would have come up with on our own. WNDL42 (talk) 02:06, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

If anyone doesn't wish for me to work with the article, I'll bow out. You all are more involved in the article, and I understand if you do not want me to upset a balance. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 02:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Here's something to think about. How about if I put my version of the lead in a subpage, and you all can work out details and decide for yourself. Would that work? Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 02:36, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

there are so many versions already... maybe you should just try editing the article, once it's unprotected... Dlabtot (talk) 02:46, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no reason why a neutral and experienced editor shouldn't edit the article directly. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 03:04, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Ask what previous version is being held up as the best, and decide if you want to work from that one. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 03:06, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I support Keilana giving it a go, whether it's done on the main page, or a subpage. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 03:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Keilana for your patience, as we work this out. Martin may have a good point.Such a solution might satisfy all editors. Any thoughts from other editors.(olive (talk) 03:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC))

Well, as far as I can see Keilana is amongst Wikipedia's busiest and hardest working editors and a fair and light-handed admin. Let her decide how or whether to contribute and let's be welcoming and grateful that she's even willing to step into this (frankly) increasingly childish food-fight over a silly friggin pop-culture movie. Forgive me for being friggin WP:BLUNT, but the idea that we are unable to get our friggin collective heads out of our friggin collective rectums and accept a generous offer from from Keilana is friggin surreal. Jeez, please accept my apologies, but a quart of hi-grade double IPA helps this bullshit go down, and is reflected in my response. WNDL42 (talk) 04:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Indeed. There are at least five editors who agreed to just that. Lets be very clear on that.(olive (talk) 04:31, 12 February 2008 (UTC))

Yes, we have consensus on this. Go ahead Keilana. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

No, we don't have consensus. We have consensus for Keilana to offer her suggestions. I'm sick and tired of false claims of consensus. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Is ScienceApologist (talk · contribs) the only one objecting to the idea of having an uninvolved editor edit this article? Consensus does not require unanimity. ScienceApologist (talk · contribs), you say she should only 'offer suggestions'... who then, will be given your permission to actually edit the article? Dlabtot (talk) 16:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

What's the big deal?? Anyone can edit the article, Keilana included. Go ahead, no permission needed. But no one gets carte blanche--the edits will not be regarded as set in stone. If everyone likes the changes, great. If the consensus is that the changes are not good, they won't stand. Rracecarr (talk) 16:53, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

To clarify: 6 editors have given their permission for Keilana to edit the article for NPOV. 3 editors have asked that she offer suggestions (as I understand their statements). This is not a consensus for offer of suggestions, and this is a agreement among the majority of editors for NPOV editing by Keilana. Consensus does not require unanaminity....

Consensus does not mean that everyone agrees with the outcome; instead, it means that everyone agrees to abide by the outcome. The following description of consensus, from the mailing list, argues a difference between consensus and unanimity:

I am not suggesting that there is a consensus for outcome of Keilana's action, but this is a consensus for the action to take place. Whether Keilana wishes to move on this, given that not all editors are in agreement is another issue. I personally feel somewhat embarassed that she could have even been placed in this position, when such decision should have been made by the editors on this article. (olive (talk) 17:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC))

Given that what I was planning to do is evidently controversial, I will compromise and place my version of the lead (and if anyone wants, the whole article) on a subpage, Talk:What the Bleep Do We Know!?/Keilana's proposal, as soon as I'm finished with it. Please discuss it on that talk page, with a link here, it may make things less confusing. Regards to all, Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 17:08, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I've put a first draft up there, please tell me what you think of it. Nota bene, the reference formatting was a mess, I fixed that in my version, but whether or not it's accepted, I will go in and fix the formatting, as bad formatting drives me nuts. It is just a first draft, please comment and point out any biased bits, I tried to make it as neutral as possible. Regards, Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 19:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Keilana. This seems to be a good solution and possibly the only solution at this moment(olive (talk) 19:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC))

Here's a better version

[2] This is the version of the article we should revert to after protection ceases. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:08, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's going to cause a fight...1Z (talk) 14:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Aside from the lead issues the version linked to by SA looks pretty informative and NPOV to me. JoshuaZ (talk) 03:06, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

That version is full of original research, a view which has been confirmed at least twice by consensus after major disputes. Going back to that version is completely unacceptable. Dreadstar † 07:14, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed with JoshuaZ here. The lead is still a bit fluffy (no need to give a laundry list of every topic touched upon by the film). Antelan ^talk 07:21, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks good to me, just a little rewording of the lead for conciseness. Jefffire (talk) 09:18, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I can see including a new lead in that version and then working to source the various points. Maybe something along the lines of the above section. ScienceApologist (talk) 13:16, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

My question is: What are the "various points" that should be in this lead.....I have seen multiple incarnations of this lead with multiple points many of which were agreed on by at aleast some editors, some of which had achieved consensus. Could these points be articulated and delineated clearly.(olive (talk) 17:11, 19 January 2008 (UTC))

Since you've mentioned that some points have achieved consensus, perhaps you could list them here for addition to that lead? Antelan ^talk 17:49, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

This is just another attempt to add Original research to the article. The version ScienceApologist is recommending here is clearly full of OR, and this version was subjected to intensive discussions, revert warring, protection and had to be taken through several steps of Wikipedia:Resolving disputes. Consensus was found on that occasion that the disputed content violated WP:NOR. There have been two additional attempts by ScienceApologist and others to introduce OR to this article.here and here

This is an unacceptable path to go down yet again. But if we have to, we'll do it again. Dreadstar † 17:54, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Wrong, this is an attempt to return the article to a better state than it is currently. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:14, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I've been misunderstood. I am not referring to specific additions to the article but rather what needs to be in the lead. What general issues...points... information whatever we want to call it should this lead contain. Possibly if we all know what these fundamental points are, appropriate sources, and an appropriate syntactic structure for the lead could be more easily decided on.(olive (talk) 18:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC))

I understand you Littleolive oil. I think that we can deal with this in a separate section. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:14, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be provocative to return to a version that so many editors have objected to, and it does contain OR. The thing to do in a situation like this is just report what reliable sources have said about the film without embellishment. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 19:12, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

There has been no OR documented. There isn't any embellishment in that version either. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:14, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Wrong, the OR was well documented and each item was discussed in detail, finally reaching consensus that it was indeed material that violated WP:NOR. Read the links I provided in my post above...all the details are there. The embellishment is the additional critical comment from unrelated sources. You'll need to find consensus to go back to that version. I doubt you'll find it. Dreadstar † 19:18, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Nope. You are incorrect. You are linking to metadiscussions, not discussions on article content. There is this persistent myth that we can only quote and not summarize. However, this version of the article can be cited extensively to actual movie reviews as a summary of the various issues critics have had with the film. Instead of reinventing the wheel, we simply return to a version and offer our selected critical citations. It's that simple. We are in a position now where people agree (see above) that we can have sections regarding individual issues in the movie. I'm not saying that we have to stick with this version, I'm just saying that it's better. There is precedent for doing this. See Cold fusion for example. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:27, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Slim Virgin put it perfectly. I agree completely with Dreadstar here. Let's stop going in circles and just move on. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not going in circles. There's plenty of good text in here that simply doesn't appear in this article. The water crystal nonsense is barely mentioned here, yet is prominently mentioned in the movie. This has even been criticized by critics of the movie itself. Slim just let me know that she only saw the first 20 minutes of the film and judged it to be pop-philosophy. While there certainly is a lot of pop-philosophy in the film, there's also quite a bit of pseudoscience being promoted as fact throughout the film. There isn't anything wrong with documenting this since we have sources which point it out. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

We are going in circles ScienceApologist. If you take the time to read through the so-called "metadiscussions" you would indeed find that the content was discussed in detail line-by-line and source-by-by source, a poll was taken and consensus found. Not once, but at least twice, which included an undeniable consensus, with additional pushing by you on the WP:NOR talk page. If you want to go back to that version, then you'll need to bring each item here, with sources to support all the content you wish to revert to. Your proposed version is full of WP:NOR, so you'll need to provide details on new sources for it to be considered. Dreadstar † 20:45, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Can we stop talking about what "I" am doing and start focusing on the proposals at hand? I see a use of "you" or a derivative in respect to me 13 times in this section used by User:Dreadstar. This is getting very close to a personal attack. Please remove all references to myself and stick to talking about the proposal (which has nothing to do with "you"). ScienceApologist (talk) 20:48, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

It's your proposal and we have focused on it. I suggest you follow WP:CON and WP:DR where the other proposals and straw polls are concerned, which you've told other editors here to ignore.

Personal attacks do not include civil language used to describe an editor's actions, and when made without involving their personal character, should not be construed as personal attacks, so there's no reason to remove "all references" to yourself. If you think you've been personally attacked, then by all means take it up the chain. Dreadstar † 20:57, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I concur with Dreadstar, Slrubenstein, and SlimVirgin, who wrote: "it would be provocative to return to a version that so many editors have objected to, and it does contain OR. The thing to do in a situation like this is just report what reliable sources have said about the film without embellishment." I do not question that many of the scientific facts in the film are wrong. But this is an article about a film, not about science. The only way to address the facts in the film is to use WP:RS that mention the film. There are plenty of experts who have done so. I don't see what the problem is, just quote them stating their ideas about the way the science is presented in the film. Using science sources that do not discuss the film is WP:SYN. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 21:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

To be clear, we are asking to use that version as a starting point and will go ahead and reference the points as they go through. Did you not understand that? ScienceApologist (talk) 21:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Can I suggest that perhaps a draft intro might be useful since the current choices do have their weakness. Jefffire (talk) 20:51, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure I started one below. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:50, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

• Above section copied from this section of the archives. Dreadstar † 15:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the version re^3-proposed by SA has been "done-to-death" and is not acceptable. Time to move on. If a picture of the policy is necessary to see that we ARE going in circles, please see WP:CCC, the flow chart may be helpful. WNDL42 (talk) 17:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

This is a good version. It includes a lot of information that was excised for dubious reasons. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Specifically, a single editor has this discussion stalled at the "find a reasonable (if tempororary) compromise" stage. WNDL42 (talk) 17:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

No, there are other editors above who have agreed with me. Don't mischaracterize the discussion, please. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Consensus, imagined or real, can change. Post the diffs, and make them recent, please. WNDL42 (talk) 19:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there's consensus for SA's version, but it isn't unsupported. I would put it in my top three.Kww (talk) 19:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Consensus for disputed lead

Please provide evidence of the claim of consensus for this disputed edit. Dreadstar † 18:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll note through the last month of discussions, people from all sides of the issue helped draft an intro which is listed as draft one above. Note that Dreadstar opted out of these discussions. Now dreadstar is reverting the issue claiming that there is no "consensus". Sorry, dreadstar, if you refuse to involve yourself in a discussion, you can't claim there isn't consensus. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

(1) There is no consensus in support of your lead, and (2), what part of this talk page's header is unclear? WNDL42 (talk) 18:36, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

SA, the only thing that could be construed even tangentially as "agreement" here was "Aside from the lead issues the version linked to by SA looks pretty informative and NPOV to me". What part of "aside from the lead" is unclear? WNDL42 (talk) 18:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

SA, I indicated my disagreement with that version of the lead yesterday. You didn't say a word about this purported consensus then. Additionally, I certainly don't see where consensus was found for the version you are now trying to edit war into place. In any case, if lack of consensus wasn't apparent before, it certainly should be now. Dreadstar † 18:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Let it be lodged now. I think that there is consensus on draft one. Do you see any evidence to the contrary? ScienceApologist (talk) 19:13, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes I see evidence to the contrary, as evidenced by the comments from several editors on this talk page and by the reverts to your non-consensus change. Clearly disputed, clearly no consensus on draft one. Dreadstar † 19:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

No, I see consensus on draft one being ignored by people who refused to take part in the discussion when draft one was being workshopped. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll note through the last month of discussions, people from all sides of the issue helped draft an intro which is listed as draft one above. Note that Dreadstar opted out of these discussions.

I don't believe that is an accurate characterization of these discussions. In fact, the idea that SA's version was the draft which we should all be working on was the subject of vigorous disagreement from several editors, a discussion that ultimately led to SA being blocked for violation of his ArbCom sanctions. Dlabtot (talk) 18:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll note that the objections were primarily to the concept of workshopping it, not to using SA's draft. Since the link you gave above was to a discussion closed by an administrator that rejected the complaint and did not sanction SA in any way, I have to ask why you characterised the link as him being blocked for violation of his ArbCom sanctions? I see that you and he were both blocked for deciding to edit-war on an ArbCom enforcement page ... a battlefield whose choice illustrates questionable judgement on both of your parts.Kww (talk) 19:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I just copied the url that Revolving Bugbear (talk · contribs) put in SA's block log at the time of the block on January 20. In a completely unrelated block that was applied to both SA and myself on February 6, you are entirely correct that I exercised poor judgement by edit warring. The block was entirely justified, I'm sorry for the behavior that led to the block, and I firmly intend to not repeat that behavior.Dlabtot (talk) 19:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

SA, you've asserted consensus repeatedly, been asked politely each time to post diffs in support of your assertion, and have refused. You need to WP:PROVEIT, and argumentum ad infinitum as Proof by assertion is a logical fallacy. WNDL42 (talk) 19:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Since ever bit from the lead is fully sourced and cited, WP:PROVEIT is satisfied. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Your assertion of a consensus is synthesis, original research, and as you are the Primary Source of this assertion, you need to post the diffs you've been asked for, providing recent secondary sources that outweigh the opinions on this talk page. WNDL42 (talk) 19:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow, that's pretty weird. Are you trying to make the talkpage into an article? ScienceApologist (talk) 19:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't support SA's draft, nor am I aware that there was any kind of consensus.I have been keeping track of the discussion and frankly felt no need to again and again hash through the same points, and hoped that resolution might come through a mediation or later through Keilana's help. Sourcing and citing does not necessarily address NPOV problems.(olive (talk) 19:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC))

Olive, forgive me, but you have yet to explain why you don't support my draft. I note that you helped write my draft, so it seems a little strange that you now turn around and say you don't support it. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Old version of the intro

What the Bleep Do We Know!? (also written What tнe #$*! Dө ωΣ (k) πow!? and What the #$*! Do We Know!?) is a 2004 film, followed by an extended 2006 DVD release, which combines documentary-style interviews, computer-animated graphics, and a narrative to assert a connection between science and spirituality. The plot follows the story of a fictional deaf photographer as she struggles with her life. Interspersed throughout the film's storyline are relevant excerpts from the interviews.

Bleep was directed by William Arntz, Betsy Chasse and Mark Vicente, members of Ramtha's School of Enlightenment. The film features extensive interviews with the school's director, Judy Zebra Knight, claiming she channels "Ramtha", a long dead warrior/philosopher who lived in the mythical continent of Lemuria 35,000 years ago. A moderately low-budget independent production, the film was promoted using unusual grass-roots marketing methods and grossed over $10 million. The film opened in art-house theaters in the Western United States and won several independent film awards before being picked up by a major distributor.

The scientific community has criticized parts of the film for misleading audiences about science through misrepresentations. For example, the film asserts that quantum physics implies that "consciousness is the ground of all being"; this idea is part of the New Age belief of quantum mysticism, which is not accepted by the scientific community. The film also includes more specific pseudoscientific assertions: it implies that water molecules can be influenced by thought and that Transcendental Meditation can reduce violent crime. David Albert, a theoretical physicist who was interviewed for the film, has accused the filmmakers of selectively editing his interview to make it appear that he agrees with the ideas presented in the film; Albert affirms that he does not. Rracecarr (talk) 19:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Rracecarr,

Welcome to the silly nonsense here at WTBDWK!! Reposting this disputed lead, while not at all helpful at this point, provides an opportunity to summarize a tiny subset of the the disputed areas. (1) Plot line is not a notable aspect of the film. (2) Undue weight to Ramtha (3) generally pejorative and unencyclopedic tone (4) about a dozen or more objections above, which reflect the consensus of a large group of good-faith editors. This intro is and has been "dead in the water" for a long time now, and is further inappropriate here because it has become a "bone of contention". There will be nothing gained from jumping in cold and "pushing" this lead. On the other hand, welcome to the discussion! WNDL42 (talk) 19:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Welcome to the discussion, Wndl42. Generally, it's not considered civil to strikethrough someone else's post without their permission. I have undone that provocative move. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

(a) Rracecarr didn't post here other than to repost an old lead he copied and pasted, but didn't write, so (b) none of Rracecarrs words were struck because he didn't say anything here, therefore invocation of WP:CIVIL is frivolous. WNDL42 (talk) 19:53, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe that these assertions: "(1) Plot line is not a notable aspect of the film. (2) Undue weight to Ramtha " have achieved any type of consensus. Dlabtot (talk) 19:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC)