Talk:George W. Bush

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Biography Section (First Section)

Either after the mentioning of his current 19% approval rating or in the information about impeachment movement, it may be worth mentioning that Bush is not expected to be impeached as the Democratic-controlled Congress can't muster enough courage or even half the courage that the Republican-controlled Congress had when they impeached a President with an approval rating above 50%. Wotring3 (talk) 13:46, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

The first sentence of the third paragraph states: "As president, Bush signed into law a US$1.35 trillion tax cut program in 2001,[3]" It should be followed with "This tax cut was not accompanied by reduced spending and resulted in the National Debt increasing for only the second time in 50 Years (Reagan's Administration being the other time).[226]

226. National Debt History by President. White House Data on Gross National Debt. http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

Factsonly1 (talk) 20:26, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. May be worth mentioning, but we also don't want to poison the well. Could go either way. My reasoning: we already mention the national debt rising below. We don't want to be redundant, necessarily. Perhaps, instead, we could make mention in the national debt part that "many economists attribute the rise to a failure to cut spending coupled with the tax cuts". The Evil Spartan (talk) 20:55, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Could go either way. I find it hard to imagine a reliable economist would say that the national debt rising is in anyway due to tax cuts though. The federal government has been collecting record tax reciepts ever since those tax cuts went into effect. Finding an economist stating that the rise in national debt is at least partially due to failure to cut spending shouldn't be to hard to find though. Elhector (talk) 21:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

In fact, I read an article from the AP the other day that stated as much in just as many words. It stated directly that the tax cuts were not enough, by themselves, to reduce debts. They made it sound like they used some sort of metrics and mathematical data. I'm sensitive to the fact that the media is quite eager to make Bush look bad, but it still is a reliable source; now, finding it would be another issue. The Evil Spartan (talk) 21:12, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem there I presume is the assumption the rising tax collection was because of the tax cuts. In reality many countries without tax cuts have rising tax collection, probably because of growing economies etc and therefore there's no reason to presume that the US tax collection wouldn't have gone up more were it not for the tax cuts. Of course I'm not suggesting that all economists agree I'm sure many wouldn't but I'm also sure many would in fact question how effective the Bush tax cuts have been at growing the economy and reducing US debt Nil Einne (talk) 09:42, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

From a quick search I came across this [1]. Also this [2] while obviously not a RS may have some helpful links Nil Einne (talk) 09:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure we can find just as many reliable sources saying the tax cuts have helped grow the econonmy and increased tax revenue as we can find reliable sources stating the tax cuts have not helped grow the economy and have had no effect on tax revenue. It seems to be more and more of a problem for Wikipedia as a whole now. It's possible to find reliable sources that completely contradict each other even though they both meet all reliability guidlines. I'm even starting to notice situations where 2 peices from the same source completely contradict them selves. I guess that's the issue here. Is it really a good idea to go that in depth in analysis of 1 small part of GW's domestic policy on an article that is meant to be more of an overall biography of his entire life? I think this would be more appropriate for a different article. That's just my opinion though. Elhector (talk) 19:02, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Under: "Additionally, questions of possible insider trading involving Harken have arisen, though the Securities and Exchange Commission's (SEC) investigation of Bush concluded that he did not have enough insider information before his stock sale to warrant a case.[33]" .. should we add that the head of the SEC, at the time of the investigation, was formerly GWH's personal counsel? Do you think that might have influenced the decision that there was "not enough information"? James D. Rockefeller (talk) 12:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Presidency

The whole section on presidency seems to not have any type of ordering. The section 3.7 (Civ. lib.) comes before 3.9 (Sept. 11) yet refrances the events of 3.9. Personally the section should follow chronological order. Covah79 (talk) 10:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC) Feb 7, 2008

Section Seems to be missing this

Supreme Court appointments

George W. Bush appointed the following justices to the Supreme Court:

• John Glover Roberts, Jr. - 2005
• Samuel Alito - 2006

Malsmith (talk) 14:51, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Perceptions & Polls

The sections dealing with "perceptions" are per se suspect. While I do not doubt that the cited polls took place and I accept the results of those polls as correctly cited, it should be noted that polls are easily manipulated. What questions are asked and what information is given along with the question can tilt the result one way or another. Also, if the party that conducted the poll has an agenda the poll results should be taken with a grain of salt.--SMP0328. (talk) 22:48, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I have retitled the "Criticism and public perception" section to "Public perceptions." All perceptions are either critical, complimentary, a mix of those two, or are strictly factual (e.g. "It's raining outside"). Placing the word "Criticism" in the title of this section is superfluous at best and biased at worst. The new title removes the emphasis on the critical perceptions.--SMP0328. (talk) 01:20, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

On many articles regarding politicians, instead of a sections entitled "Criticism and public perception" there is a section, with similar content, entitled "Cultural and political image." That title is certainly neutral, as opposed to one that uses the word "Criticism." I suggest renaming the section "Criticism and public perception" to "Cultural and political image." --SMP0328. (talk) 20:23, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Category

May I ask how George Bush is in the category American Cheerleaders? Hatmatbbat10 (talk) 22:17, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

He was a cheerleader in school. -- Dougie WII (talk) 22:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok....Hatmatbbat10 (talk) 22:21, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I just have to say that I cannot believe that even though this is a locked article, a fairly obvious act of vandalism exists at the top of the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.45.239.13 (talk) 21:33, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that he is doing a good job in the role of presidency. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.142.46.130 (talk) 23:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

this article is not locked, it is merely restricted. the vandalism was autoreverted by a bot moments after it was done. Anastrophe (talk) 21:40, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

actually, I think it's still there... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.152.103.219 (talk) 22:13, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

okay. then perhaps you'd be kind enough to point out what exactly it is then. Anastrophe (talk) 01:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I've stated before that I thought this category was silly. It was a brief occupation in school and had nothing to do with his life; you will notice other people with brief cheerleading stints did not have it mentioned on their page for precisely this reason. The Evil Spartan (talk) 11:08, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

End of Term

There's seem to be an edit battle going on regarding when President Bush's term ends. If he finishes the current term, then it will be January 20, 2009. Technically, it could be sooner (death, resignation, or removal). Some keep putting in the end of term assuming President Bush will finish this term. Others keep removing the date, because he could leave sooner. I suggest "January 20, 2009 (assuming he finishes term)." This would cover both contingencies. --SMP0328. (talk) 20:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

A slightly cleaner version might be "Bush's term is scheduled to end of January 20, 2009". But good idea. - Revolving Bugbear 20:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

That's fine, too. That area should not be blank (as blank, it serves no purpose), but it should recognize that it's possible that President Bush could leave office prematurely. --SMP0328. (talk) 21:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that's a bit much for the infobox. ;-) If people must have something, feel free to change it to "January 20, 2001 - present" but we don't predict the future. There are just too many variables to state January 20, 2009 as a definitive end date within the infobox. I know there's a guideline or manual of style page somewhere that covers this, but there are so many of them now, I can't seem to find it. An alternative would be to include a sentence within the text of the article, as suggested by Revolving Bugbear. However, being blank is exactly as the end term parameter should be. Without a date specified, the infobox reads "Assumed office", an accurate description/field for that date. - auburnpilot talk 21:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I added a sentence very similarly worded to that suggested by Revolving Bugbear in the introduction to the article. --SMP0328. (talk) 21:21, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I suggest it should not say "January 20, 2001 - January 20, 2009" as that is original research because that date has not came yet, and he could be kicked out, have a heart attack, be assassinated, be impeached, resign, and anything like that. That is why i think it should simply say "January 20, 2001 - present" or "Assumed office: January 20, 2001". Mythdon (talk) 23:48, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I've also removed a 44th President edit from the infobox. Wiki editors out there, have got to learn to be patient. PS- Imagine the headaches we'll have between November 4, 2008 & January 20, 2009?? GoodDay (talk) 20:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

President Bush will not succeed himself, so the word "Incumbent" (who is Bush) is not correct. The successor to the current President will be the 44th President. The 44th President will, unless something unforeseen occurs, take office via this year's Presidential election. Hence the link to the article about this year's Presidential election. --SMP0328. (talk) 20:38, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Please note: at Stephen Harper he's not followed by 23rd Prime Minister; at Kevin Rudd he's not followed by 27th Prime Minister etc. Incumbent is used for 'current office holders', please respect that. GoodDay (talk) 20:44, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I stand by what I said earlier. For Stephen Harper, it should say "23rd Prime Minister." The word "Incumbent" has a meaning. The fact that something is done repeatedly does not make it correct. For how many centuries was the belief that the Earth was flat repeated? The successor to an office holder is never that office holding. We know for a fact that George W. Bush will not be his own successor, so the word "Incumbent" is unquestionably wrong. Whatever should be in that part of the infobox, the word "Incumbent" shouldn't be it. --SMP0328. (talk) 20:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

But currently the Infoboxes use incumbent in the successor section. Personally, I like your idea - bring it up at Wikipedia: WikiProject Infoboxes, see if they like it. My personal suggestion? 'Remove' the successor section from incumbent infoboxes. GoodDay (talk) 21:00, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I have made my suggestion at Wikipedia talk: WikiProject Infoboxes. Feel free to make your similar suggestion (remove successor section). Thanks for your help. --SMP0328. (talk) 21:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the successor section in the Infobox. In Wikipedia talk: WikiProject Infoboxes I have been told that the successor section in the Infobox is optional and that it is permissible to remove it. Since it's superfluous ("Incumbent" is below the name) and factually incorrect (see my comments above), I have made the removal. --SMP0328. (talk) 22:00, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Much better. GoodDay (talk) 22:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

PS- What a bone-head I was, in saying the infoboxes used 'incumbent'. The incumbent infoboxes have their 'successor section' removed. My blunder, sorry SMP0328 and everyone else. GoodDay (talk) 22:13, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it should definately be mentioned in the infobox under 20th January 2009 but insert a footnote or an asterisk stating that this is considering that he completes his term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.87.22 (talk) 02:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Clinton-Bush Article Editing Double Standard?

- The main Wiki article on Bill Clinton contains extensive info on the (unproven) sexual allegations made by Kathleen Willey and Juanita Broaddrick. And yet the main Wiki George W. Bush article contains no mention of Margie Schoedinger (who filed a rape lawsuit against Bush and who was found dead of a gunshot wound the following year). True, Schoedinger's allegation was unproven, but then so were Willey's and Broaddrick's allegations. - Why the Wiki double-standard? - More importantly, why is this considered vandalism on a discussion page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeMongo (talk • contribs) 16:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot to sign. DeMongo (talk) 16:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

do you have a reliable source that corroborates what you're alleging? note that BLP talk pages are held to approximately the same standard as the BLP page itself. thus, unsubstantiated claims about a LP are subject to removal. if you can't provide a WP:RS to back up the above, it will likely be removed as well. so, i'd recommend moving with alacrity on that. Anastrophe (talk) 18:55, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes. http://www.fortbendstar.com/Archives/2003_4q/122403/n_Woman%20who%20filed%20lawsuit%20found%20dead.htm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.34.156.186 (talk) 19:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

i'm afraid this sounds like a case of a mentally disturbed individual who imagined quite a lot of things. from the article "Furthermore she states, "Throughout this conversation, she learned that there was no time that the Defendant (Bush) ever stopped watching Plaintiff', nor did he stop having sex with Plaintiff. ". unfortunately, there's no credibility behind her claims. i can't see this single, far-fetched claim meriting inclusion in a BLP. others may disagree. Anastrophe (talk) 20:05, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I see. So if it's a woman making a sexual assault allegation against Bush, then she is a "mentally disturbed individual" and this info should be kept out of the main Bush article. However, if it's a woman making a sexual assault allegation against Clinton, then it is important, vital information that must be included in the main Wiki article on the Clinton presidency. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.91.112.76 (talk) 21:45, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

you're not assuming good faith. read the article that was cited. everything in it points to a classic disturbed individual making the allegations. it's quite sad, really. clinton had a notable - and corroborated - history of sexually intimate contact with women other than his wife. bush has none, besides this bizarre claim. i'm sure conspiracy adherents will presume bush had her killed to silence her, rather than what sounds like a deeply screwed up individual who eventually took her own life. considering the general antipathy towards bush, don't you think these allegations would have been relentlessly pursued for political gain, had they a shred of credibility? rhetorical query, that. Anastrophe (talk) 22:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Instead of placing an unsubstantiated allegation against George W. Bush in this article, how about removing the similar allegation in the Bill Clinton article? The only reference in that article is to an interview with the accuser. --SMP0328. (talk) 22:05, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

the difference i believe is the repeated pattern of allegations against clinton, his agreement to settle out of court with paul jones, and the lewinsky scandal. taken together, they add up to a notable pattern. the clinton article also incorrectly lists only the wiley and broaderick allegations in the 'sexual misconduct' section - it should also list paula jones and gennifer flowers as related articles. that makes four separate allegations, and one proven instance. i believe that meets notability. Anastrophe (talk) 22:30, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

You can rationalize this all you want, but the fact remains: if a woman makes a sexual allegation against Clinton, it's included in Wiki's main article and if a woman does the same with Bush, it's not included in Wiki's main article. Incidentally, I don't place any credence in the "notable pattern" argument. The Right-Wing Fringe also hollered about a "notable pattern" of Clinton supposedly murdering various people, including Ron Brown and Vince Foster. But no sane person would believe such charges. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.91.112.76 (talk) 22:56, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I can see both sides to this. Why not hold all presidents equally accountable? However, the fact is that Clinton spent a much larger amount of his time and energy on affairs than Bush. If there are fewer allegations against Bush, it's because he's done less to elicit them. And after all, every famous man and woman has allegations made against him or her. No reason to dwell on Bush's indiscretions in this article, because they didn't define his presidency in any way. Clinton is another matter. RoverRexSpot (talk) 21:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no conspiracy to keep this out of the Bush article, or to force sex scandals into the Clinton article. Clinton's own actions made his sex acts into scandals, but no proof whatsoever exists to verify the one claim against Bush. This isn't a partisan issue, it's basic fact. The media has treated the allegations against Bush with the attention they deserve, and there is no need or reason to include them in this article. - auburnpilot talk 23:02, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: "no proof whatsoever exists." Well, dead people don't talk---but while we're on the subject, I'd like to point out that no proof exists for the allegations made by Willey and Broaddrick. We're not saying there is a "conspiracy." But there is clearly a double standard. And I won't even get into asking why there is zero mention of Valerie Plame case or the Downing Street memo in the main Bush article. (Any reasonable, intelligent person can see that both of those news stories were vastly more important than the tabloid sleaze sexual allegations included in the main Clinton article). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.91.112.76 (talk) 23:42, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

If you have a problem with the Clinton article, the page you are looking for is Talk:Bill Clinton. We don't make decisions about that article on this talk page. For the Plame issue, see Plame affair. If you believe it should be added to this article, register an account and add it. Or, make a suggestion of content to add (not just that it should be added). - auburnpilot talk 23:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The Clinton sexual charges are included because enough people believe them. The Bush sexual charges are not included because not enough people believe them. Simple. Wikipedia is a community, and community opinion dictates what is right. Herunar (talk) 17:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Removal of the paragraph about albanian perception of Bush

I removed the paragraph as it appears to be a unique case and highly unrepresentative of the subject as a whole, and thus is not notable enough to warrant a paragraph in a tight article like this. Albania is famous for being hated by just about every other country in the world, much like the United States, so I don't find the support surprising. Herunar (talk) 17:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

it's there for NPOV; it shows that revulsion of bush is not universal. it's properly cited, and interesting. it should be restored. Anastrophe (talk) 20:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the material should be restored, but phrased in a more encyclopedic tone. The "rockstar reception" is a bit over the top, even if it is a direct quote from the article. I suggest forming a separate paragraph for the purposes of emphasizing some of the positive international perceptions, since the article now dwells exclusively on the negative. The support of Albania should certainly be mentioned in this capacity. Silly rabbit (talk) 20:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I fully agree with Anatrophe. The edit made by Herunar was unjustified and so I have returned the removed material to the article by reverting Herunar's edit. --SMP0328. (talk) 20:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, Herunar, you could probably read up on WP:NPOV: making statements like "Albania is famous for being hated by just about every other country in the world, much like the United States..." does not lend credibility to your statement. The Evil Spartan (talk) 11:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Nobel Peace prize nomination

I think that mention about Bush being a 2001 Nobel Prize nominee should be removed.

First, the statement appears to be factually incorrect. The source cited in the article to justify this statement, [3], says as much: Despite a rumor that circulated late in 2001, President Bush wasn't amongst the nominees for the 2001 prize...In February 2002, however, reports began circulating that members of the Norwegian Nobel committee had let it slip that George W. Bush was among the persons (along with British Prime Minister Tony Blair and former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani) being considered for the 2002 Peace Prize.

So it seems that Bush was nominated for the 2002 prize, rather then for the 2001 one.

Second, the source cited, snopes.com, seems like a rather weak choice of a source for this kind of information. There ought to be some more direct references in mass media.

Third, and most importantly, the mere fact that some-one was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize does not seem to be sufficiently noteworthy to be mentioned here. That is certainly the case when we are talking about a U.S. President. If he won the prize or at least if he was considered a serious contender, that would have been a different story. However, the same snopes.com article says:

The Reuters news agency noted, however: "Neither Bush nor Blair is likely to win. Bishop Gunnar Staalsett, a member of the secretive five-member Nobel committee which elects the winner, has spoken out against the U.S.-led and British-backed strikes on Afghanistan." President Bush was reportedly one of 156 candidates considered for the 2002 Peace Prize, which was awarded in October 2002 to former President Jimmy Carter.

I did a bit of google-searching and it looks like President Bush was nominated by a single rightwing Norwegian MP, see[4]. It seems to me that this episode perhaps belongs as a footnote together with various oddities and curiosities related to President Bush's biography, but not in the first sentence of his biographical entry, where it appears now. Regards, Nsk92 (talk) 05:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I just looked up the Nobel Peace Prize wikipedia article and it says that Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin and Benito Mussolini have also been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. Regards, Nsk92 (talk) 05:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, being nominated for a medal so partisan and politically influenced that it makes that UN look functional, and it being refuted by a newspaper with equally partisan marks. Maybe we should look into this more: did it have any chance of success, or was it a fringe nomination, as the guardian states? Can you find any sources about this in mainstream media? The Evil Spartan (talk) 11:04, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

There did not seem to be a lot of press coverage of the nomination. However, here are links to news-stories by the BBC [5] and by Reuters [6]. Both say that Bush was considered unlikely to win. There is some evidence that the nomination was considered a bit of a joke, e.g. see the parody cite [7]. On the other hand, we should remember that this was before the Iraq war and fairly soon after September 11, when the world opinion of George W. Bush was quite different from what it is today.

Interestingly, it turns out that Bush was also nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 2004, see [8], [9], [10]. That nomination was made by another right-wing Norwegian MP and was widely viewed even more unlikely to succeed than the 2002 nomination. According to the Free Republic story referenced above, the Libian leader Muammar Gaddafi was also nominated in 2004.

The Free Republic story also says [11]: Lundestad said many people wrongly believed being a "Nobel prize nominee" was itself a kind of honour. Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler and former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic have made it to the list -- every member of all the world's parliaments, university professors from law to theology, ex-winners and committee members can submit names.

In my view, this shows that the standard for a nomination is quite low and, in and of itself, being nominated does not represent a particular distinction or honor. This is especially true for some-one like the President of the United States, who has more than enough bona fide distinctions, honors and awards, and other biographical facts that are much more significant than a Nobel Peace Prize nomination. Therefore, I do not believe that the mention of such a nomination belongs in the first sentence of George W Bush's biographical wikipedia article, where it is currently listed. Regards, Nsk92 (talk) 12:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Dear me, it's in the lead? Given the evidence you've presented, if it's accurate, this is not appropriate. I agree it should at least be moved down near the bottom (please do so). If it had no chance of success, it deserves nothing more than a passing mention at best, and probably could be taken out altogether uncontroversially. The Evil Spartan (talk) 13:13, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've corrected the 2001 error and moved the mention of the nomination to from the opening sentence to the foreign perceptions section. Regards, Nsk92 (talk) 13:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I added it. I wasn't aware anyone could be a nominee. I agree to not include it. Mønobi 03:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Skulls and Bones

I think it is relevant to acknowledge him being in the Skulls and Bones. The Anti-Vandalism King (talk) 19:32, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

In the Skull and Bones article, there is a one sentence reference to Bush being in the secret society. It says Bush refused comment. If you can find more information regarding this matter, and have it properly referenced, then put it in the article. --SMP0328. (talk) 19:50, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

www.fascism.com

Why does attempting to go to this website result in getting to this article? [12] --SMP0328. (talk) 06:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

it simply means that whomever owns the fascism.com domain has put in place a web redirect to this page. it's completely outside of wikipedia's control. well, i suppose if the wikipedia network admins had some free time on their hands, they could block traffic being directed in from 216.52.184.243, but there's no guarantee that the address won't change. it's just part of the way the web works. Anastrophe (talk) 07:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. This is the nature of the web, and I do not believe blocking traffic from a domain sets a good precedent. Would they then block any web pages that linked the word fascism to this site? rob3r —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rob3r (talk • contribs) 21:05, 21 February 2008 (UTC)