Talk:2008 Summer Olympics medal table

Gold-centric

Since when are statistics organized as gold first? This goes against common sense and tradition. Does the following make sense?

Template:Olympic Medal header Template:Olympic Medal team Template:Olympic Medal team Template:Olympic Medal team Template:Olympic Medal footer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.240.244.118 (talk • contribs) 2008-08-10T09:30:12Z

(1) Gold first is the tradition.

(2) By clicking on the symbol next to "Rank, "Nation", "Silver", "Total" etc. you can organize the list according to your preference.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.56.13 (talk • contribs) 2008-08-10T12:35:06Z

In that case, why bother calling it the "medal count"? The name itself seems to imply that teams will be arranged, first, by number of medals won. --68.97.115.26 (talk) 19:18, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

"Medal count" can imply gold medal counts, silver medal counts, or total medal counts. As mentioned, gold first is the tradition. But if you like to view the table according to total medals, you can always sort it (click the arrow button next to the "Total" title). Heilme (talk) 20:21, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

If you mean gold medals first, that's what should be said. Placing golds before even the overall count can lead to a situation, as shown above, where a team that has won significantly more medals finishes lower in the count. You can justify that stupidity all you want...you can even say, "Well, you can sort it a different way if you want to"...but that doesn't change the default setting nor the stupidity thereof. --68.97.115.26 (talk) 23:45, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I think he meant that it is not the tradition to ignore the total medal count in favor of the gold total count--as shown in his example. Of course, golds are listed first--i.e. in the leftmost column. However, the entire list is sorted by descending order of total medals by default--as on this site: http://www.nbcolympics.com/. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.139.116.178 (talk) 23:04, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

NBC is sorting by total. The ICO/Beijing site is sorting by total golds as they always do. -CWY2190(talk • contributions) 00:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, I do not see any problems at all with the way the table is compiled at this point. One person says "gold-centric", then another shouts "total-medal-centric"...you cannot make everyone happy at the same time. NBC listed according to the total, while the International Olympics Committee website listed by the golds. Let's not make a big deal out of this. The purpose of the SORT function in the table is meant to solve this issue. So, use it. Heilme (talk) 01:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Or, if your issue is with the country ranking # which reflects only the gold medal counts now, then I suggest you modify it at your own will. Perhaps, a different ranking #s for each counting system. But this will be messy. Heilme (talk) 02:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Regardless, the medal count that is most often referred to is total medals. That is what China, for example wants, they want to "beat the US in the total medal count". the example given above illustrates this very well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.117.146 (talk) 04:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I wouldn't even bother arguing your point, as valid as it is. It's clear that to some people who edit Wikipedia, tradition is allowed to trump logic. --68.97.115.26 (talk) 05:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes. It probably makes since to arrange by total medals, but unless Mr. Rogge changes it, it will be ordered by the way the IOC does it. -CWY2190(talk • contributions) 06:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I suppose you know this, but just in case, this is Wikipedia -- not the IOC. Wikipedia editors have the prerogative to make the page in a way that reflects most-common usage. The majority of news websites give gross medal count. The vast majority of commentators list the gross medal count of past Olympics and speak of the current battle for the gross number of medals. I'll state a bit of OR here, but I'd guess most Olympic fans consider the gross count as equivalent to the "Olympics medal count". So, I'm afraid that even though your argument of what Rogge and the IOC uses is valid, it does not does over rule Wikipedia in any such simplistic manner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.117.146 (talk) 07:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Show me common usage. The first place I went was to the BBC and they had it arranged by golds. -CWY2190(talk • contributions) 07:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, I've never, _ever_ seen it organized by total medal count. Must be a by-countryn thing. Offical IO listings always are gold first. Of course, it has its drawbacks, but for a really "fair" ordering, you'd probably need to assign weights to the different medals. After all, is it better to have 5 silver, or 8 bronze medals? Gold first has always been the traditional way of ordering, and until a generally accepted better sorting surfaces, it should stay gold first.--Flosch (talk) 13:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

"Regardless, the medal count that is most often referred to is total medals." Not the case. Bragging rights always go to the country with the most golds. Often this is also the country with the most medals - but if we're just going to count all medals as having equal value, what's the point of having first, second and third? How is that logical? (194.110.194.1 (talk) 09:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)).

So what you're saying is, even if the country with the most medals were to win, let's say, 30 more than the country with the most golds, the latter would have bragging rights? "We got 89 total medals, including 38 golds" speaks of a better Olympic Games than "We got 119 total medals, including 37 golds"? Be serious. --68.97.115.26 (talk) 15:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

That is serious. Most people would regard a nation who won 37 golds to have "beaten" a nation who won 36 golds in the Olympics, regardless of how many times the latter nation won a runner's-up medal. That's the way the International Olympic Committee count the medals. That's also the way the BBC, The Times, The Telegraph, The Guardian and pretty much every other news source I've ever seen counts the medals.86.157.9.214 (talk) 19:17, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

See my point below re: Russia v. Thailand. If you consider a country that had won six medals (as of that comment) to be having a less successful Olympics than a country with only one, based solely on the color of the single medal, then that's your affair. But you're still wrong. --68.97.115.26 (talk) 01:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I've seen your example of Russia and Thailand, and I would consider that a single gold beats any number of silvers and bronzes in the same way as I would consider winning the FA Cup or the Superbowl to be a bigger achievement than being the runner up three years running (from a purely results-driven point of view). As the late great Ayrton Senna is claimed to have said, "I race to win. Second place is nothing". If you think that I'm wrong and I think that you're wrong, maybe we should start looking at what the major news sources from practically every country on Earth considers to be the conventional way of ranking the nations, and the way that the IOC sorts the medal table.86.132.185.178 (talk) 07:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The FA Cup and the Super Bowl aren't exactly parallel cases, though, are they? There you have one single team prize to be given, in one event, staged in one country, and a multitude of teams pursuing it. Here, you have multiple prizes to be won PER EVENT, multiple events, and a multitude of athletes and teams pursing the top prize in each one, not only for their own glory but the glory of their homeland. I grant you that the prizes are graded from most to least prestigious, and I further grant you that nobody goes to the Olympics aiming for a silver medal if they think there is even a slight chance for them to take the gold. But there are enough differences between the types of competition and the prizes awarded that your analogy fails at the most basic level. Perhaps you need to examine your thought process instead of urging me to examine the opinions of others -- opinions which I have already rejected ad nauseam for reasons which I have explained over and over again. --68.97.115.26 (talk) 06:15, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Each member of the FA Cup final's losing team gets a runners up medal. And I didn't ask you to reconsider my opinions. I suggested that if we disagree here (and we clearly do), we should follow the common usage of the IOC and almost every major news source in every country in the world.212.124.225.66 (talk) 12:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Well that settles it!, obviously only the British report news on this planet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.45.72.26 (talk) 21:30, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

And Le Monde (France), Der Spiegel (Germany), China Daily, Daily Globe (Canada), Radio 24 (Italy), The Australian -CWY2190(talk • contributions) 00:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

English Wikipedia, therefore you should be quoting only English references to look for common usage. So perhaps Commonwealth countries prefer a gold-centric, and the United States prefers medal-centric? Regardless, it certainly looks funny to see Thailand in 12th with one gold medal, but Russia in 16th with seven medals. Saying that golds define who 'wins', is as stupid as the argument that any country somehow wins the Olympics. This gold-centric medal counting does nothing more than to belittle those athletes who received silver and bronze medals... so CONGRATS! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.117.146 (talk) 02:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Its not going to change. Deal with it. -CWY2190(talk • contributions) 03:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

<sarcasm> Now that's what I like to see -- a well-reasoned argument. "Deal with it." Why did I ever doubt? </sarcasm> --68.97.115.26 (talk) 04:09, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The "argument" has been made for years. Yes, it should be arranged by total medals in my opinion, but its not. Until the standard changes, neither will Wikipedia. -CWY2190(talk • contributions) 04:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm giving the British media sources as those are the media sources I knew about before researching this and those are all widely recognised media sources. If the British sources aren't good enough for you, then how about sources from France, China (the host nation) and Germany? And if that's not enough continents, then how about Australia? As far as I can tell, the biggest national newspaper in Australia is "The Australian" and their website's front page has the "medal tally" sorted by Gold. In fact, I haven't yet seen a SINGLE major news organisation from anywhere outside of the USA which sorts the table by total number of medals rather than by Golds.86.132.185.178 (talk) 07:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Let's see:

• Gold Ordered:
  • IOC, BBC (UK), Le Monde (France), Der Spiegel (Germany), China Daily, Daily Globe (Canada), La gazzetta dello sport (Italy), Marca (Spain), Le soir (Belgium), The Australian, Yomiuri Shimbun (Japan), The Chosun Ilbo (South Korea), El Norte (Mexico) (edit: added many leading world newspapers, which means pretty much most of the world is counting this way)
• Total Ordered:
  • NBC, ESPN, Yahoo Sports, NYTimes, CNN/SI (which means USA only...)

Feel free to add others. Dragons flight (talk) 08:17, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

True. Hardly any other country is listing by total. Only the USA is doing so. So this is obviously not "common" as tghe whole world is counting correctly, just as the IOC does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.56.113.248 (talk) 15:34, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

So far it looks like a US vs the World thing. -CWY2190(talk • contributions) 08:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I've made my case. I didn't pick and choose. I went to List of Newspapers in _____, picked one of the national newspapers and posted the link. -CWY2190(talk • contributions) 08:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The Chinese are heavily favoured to win the most golds this Games. The Americans are probably going to end up with the most medals overall, which is why all the AMERICAN networks are ranking by total medals (although as of now, China is leading in both categories at 9 golds and 13 total). The IOC tradition is golds first, and this has been the case since 1896. Wikipedia will not tweak things in America's favor. Wikipedian06 (talk) 12:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

That's a ridiculous thing to say. "Total-centric" is how it is always done in the US (which explains why some people are amazed to discover that it's done in a different way elsewhere). In this Olympics and in every other. We didn't suddenly change to a more sensible system because the Chinese were going to beat us in Gold. That said, even though I absolutely believe that the IOC system is inferior...it doesn't matter. "Gold-Centric" is the commonly accepted standard in the IOC, the world at large, and the English speaking world. Wikipedia ought to reflect that.Alanmjohnson (talk) 16:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with who benefits or doesn't benefit from a change. That would be an inadmissible argument, whether made in favor of or against a proposal. Read a logic book sometime. If you're going to advertise a "medal count," then all the medals should be counted, either with equal weight or via some kind of system that assigns points to various medals. As I said above, ranking a country that has won 30 more medals overall at the completion of a Games below a country that has won just one more gold is objectively ridiculous. Just because the IOC has been doing it this way for over 100 years doesn't automatically make it right, by the way. So apparently, what it takes to cement a flawed policy as acceptable in your mind is a century of tradition. Good to know. --68.97.115.26 (talk) 15:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

There are no "weights" or "point values" assigned to each medals. If you feel the IOC gold-sorting method is flawed, that's your personal opinion, and it has no placed in a Wikipedia article per WP:NPOV. --Madchester (talk) 23:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. You haven't even noticed that I've been making an argument, not simply expressing an opinion, have you? (See my Russia-Thailand example below, from this Games.) --68.97.115.26 (talk) 01:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, we all saw the example. Good job. What I noticed in your example was that the country with the most golds was still ranked first. Here's an example for you: Two nations participate in the Olympics. Nation A participates in 50 events and gets gold every time. Nation B participates in 51 events and gets Bronze every time. Nation A beat Nation B in every event they participated in. By your logic they should be ranked as below Nation B even though they are obviously superior athletes. In my example the current way works. This is why we stick with tradition. We can't simply switch because it seems more logical this year. One year things could happen to be the way they are in your example and the next they could be like in mine. Can you imaging how china would react if the IOC suddenly said "this year we are going to rank by total medal count" and moved them down to second? There is some LOGIC for you. It would Piss off everyone but the US to switch the ranking system now. Is that LOGIC enough for you?

If we count 3rd as being worth as much as 1st, then what about fourth? What if Nation C came 4th in every single event in the Olympics? If 51 3rd place medals are worth more than 50 1sts, why aren't 52 4ths worth more than that? or 53 5ths? Can you apply LOGIC to that question?

We do it the way it's always been done because changing to make one nation happy now would make another nation mad. If you are so fond of logic you should understand this. Maybe you think it should have never been set up this way in the first place but you must know that no amount of logic can reverse this decision. Time goes forward. The only logical thing to do is to accept the way it is done and deal with it.--Matt D (talk) 10:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

First, in case you didn't notice, my example was meant to point out that it was a BAD THING that the country with the most golds was ranked first in that case. Second, I am still comfortable with ranking Nation B ahead of Nation A in your example, as extreme a case as it is -- because my way also allows me to rank --

Russia (92 medals, 27 gold) ahead of China (63 medals, 32 gold) in the medal count for Athens,

Germany (36 medals, 12 gold) ahead of Norway (25 medals, 13 gold) in the medal count for Atlanta,

Canada (13 medals, 3 gold) ahead of South Korea (6 medals, 4 gold) in the medal count for Lillehammer,

Italy (14 medals, 4 gold) ahead of the United States (11 medals, 5 gold) in the medal count for Albertville,

and South Korea (29 medals, 12 gold) over Spain (22 medals, 13 gold) in the medal count for Barcelona.

It's not like I looked hard, either, to find these examples where your way simply doesn't work at all. And there are plenty of others that I didn't cite. Third, since we're talking about medal count tables, and no medals are awarded for fourth place, your question makes no sense in the context of the debate, unless you'd like to start awarding them. There. Logic applied. (Ooh! We could have copper for fourth place, and pewter for fifth! And every last-place finisher could get a tin medal just for trying!) Fourth, my objection to the way the table is laid out has nothing whatsoever to do with any national affiliation. I am not from Russia, yet I do believe that winning 29 more medals than another country qualifies you to be ranked above them, even if they did win 5 more golds than you. Fifth, whether someone is more happy or more angry at this method of sorting should have absolutely no bearing at all on whether the rankings change or stay the same. I am fond enough of logic to understand THAT. That is why I am presenting an objection with examples; you're the one dragging hurt feelings into it. Sixth, although I agree that it would be very difficult for the IOC to switch at this late date, Wikipedia is not the IOC. It does not have to adhere to their flawed ranking system, or to some misguided sense of tradition. Finally, since you say that "everyone but the US" would be pissed at a switch, here are some examples of nations who would not be -- Australia, Italy, Russia, North Korea, France, the Netherlands, and Brazil. All would have higher places on the list as of this moment, and most other nations would stay the same. Nations like the Czech Republic, India, and Thailand would suffer some significant drops, but again, France has 9 medals and India and Thailand have 1 each. Care to take a stab as to why both are ahead of France? --68.97.115.26 (talk) 16:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

For starters, you might want to come up with a fair system. Let's take two countries, equal number of gold medals, but country A has 1 more silver medal than B, while B has 2 more bronze medals than A. Which one comes first? Is a silver medal worth twice as much as a bronze, or 1.5 times, or 2.5 times? Want to come up with a weighting system for how much a medal is worth? Go ahead, that might be the only way close to being "fair". I doubt it'll get accepted though, because a) it might be considered "too complicated", b) I've never seen it used anywhere else, and I'm not sure this is the best place to start a crusade for a new ranking system. --Flosch (talk) 21:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I did my best. Every system will have problems; I admit that. I simply claim that the one I advocate is MORE fair, in that it won't result in Country A being ranked behind Country B, when Country A has won significantly more medals yet slightly fewer golds. --68.97.115.26 (talk) 00:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

"My system" doesn't work at all? "my system"? It is the official IOC system. And it is a bit of an exaggeration to say it doesn't work at all. Also you completly evaded my point that third and first are not the same thing. The reason they don't award medals for fourth is because it is not the same as first or second or third. That was my point. You seem capable enough of understanding why fourth doesn't get a medal but not of understanding why third is not the same as first. Evading my point is not the same thing as thinking about it. Saying that making countries angry or not is not an issue is blatant over simplification. You say both systems are flawed. Yet you think your system where, if nation A beat nation B every time they competed, nation A could still rank as lower than B because B got a bronze in one other event is MORE fair? perhaps it is more fair in some situations and even then only if you believe a bronze is worth the same as a gold. You can argue all you want that a million bronzes are better than one gold but your system would still make a gold and a bronze equal. Which is the same as saying that Nation A, B and C should be tied if one has 20 golds, one has 20 silvers, and one has 20 Bronze. How is that for fair? That is what your system, your awesomely fair system, would translate too. A country with 50 golds would be tied with a country with 50 silvers. 'A' beats 'B' 50 times and they tie. Okay... you admit their are flaws in both systems. Why call for change? It amounts to saying "Hey let's switch one flawed system for another because I have some examples where it would have worked out better even though there are just as many examples where it would have been worse". Just stop. The IOC being an international body of experts has, I'm sure, thought about this a lot. The examples I have provided are just as valuable as yours even if mine are hypothetical. There will be no switch. Because the current system IS more logical, wise, and fair.

Also, It is called a "Medal Table" now. Not "medal count" So you really should just stop. A) you are wrong. B) It isn't even a medal count any more. It is table which assigns more worth to gold inherantly. If you really want a table that shows number of medals as most important perhaps you could get some card board, and magic markers and make one.--Matt D (talk) 11:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

In keeping with my promise below, I have confined my response to this post to the respective user's talk page. I respond here only to point out that I did agree to drop the subject and move on, almost five hours BEFORE this user castigated me for not dropping the subject and moving on. --68.97.115.26 (talk) 15:11, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey, your position totally lacks logic, although you bring in logic as an argument. Every event has one winner who gets a gold medal, everyone else is a loser in that event even the silver and bronze medalists. Therefore, 1 gold medal is worth more than an infinite number of silver and bronze medals. Therefore, the current ranking system is correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.126.176.165 (talk) 18:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey, first off, logic is not an ARGUMENT. We use logic to make sure our arguments are valid. If you're going to criticize someone else for their lack of "logic," it might behoove you to first learn the definition and some basic principles of reasoning. Second, your argument only holds if I am willing to admit your unspoken postulate that winning is the only thing that matters. I am not. Clearly the IOC agrees with me, on this issue at least. Else, why would they bother to give awards to those who came close but didn't win? Why wouldn't they just recognize the winners? Just because France was edged out by the United States in the men's 4x100m freestyle relay, that doesn't reduce the greatness of their swim -- they did shatter the old world record, after all. Their team, nominally at least, is better at that event than every other team in the world save only one, and then only by a few hundredths of a second. They deserve to be recognized for the level of excellence they have attained, as (to continue the example) does Team France generally. Their nine total medals, as of this writing, should result in them being listed BEFORE a country who has been represented on the podium by only a single athlete. --68.97.115.26 (talk) 00:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

It's called tradition. Why did they lit the torch at Olympia in all Olympics? Because it's tradition. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 16:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Tradition has supported a lot of things in the past, not all of them good. It is, moreover, not an adequate defense for any action; just because something has ALWAYS been done doesn't mean that way is somehow better, or even right at all. --68.97.115.26 (talk) 01:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

One example of what some of us have been talking about -- Right now, Russia is ranked below Thailand on the default table setting. Russian athletes have won a total of six medals in these Olympics so far, while only one Thai has mounted the medal stand. Objectively, who has had the better Games to this point? With six medals to one, I would say Russia, and I think most people outside of Thailand would agree. However, because Russia has no golds, and Thailand's only medal is gold, the IOC says Thailand has had a better Games. So, this is the point of view some of you are actually championing? --68.97.115.26 (talk) 15:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I suggest to make the Ranking # column to be fixed (i.e. non-sortable). In other words, just direct numbering 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... from top to bottom and will not change when different sortings is used. In this way, the ranking # can be used to reflect ANY METHOD each user wants to sort the medals.....including assigning Ranking #1 to the country with the lowest medals!!!! :D Heilme (talk) 16:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, in this way, Wikipedia listing will not be seen as biased compared to the media who use different counting systems. This will also solve the traditional vs. logical argument above. Please, this issue is actually not new. The 2004 Summer Olympics medal count also had similar argument before. Let's all stay friendly. Olympics spririt!! Heilme (talk) 16:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

However, the drawbacks of this system is 1) it may assign ranking #1 to countries with 0 medals (depending on how you sort up or down), 2) it will not be able to reflect ties i.e. two or more countries with the same amount of medal types/counts. But this will be very neutral. Another alternative, but a lot more work & messy, is to insert the ranking # as parenthesis next to each medal types. So, for instance, USA, gold: 5 (rank #1), silver: 4 (rank #1), total: 9 (rank #2). All in all, I still prefer to do nothing and let things stay the way it is with ample explanation. Heilme (talk) 16:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Section break

We've gone through this discussion many times, most notably during the 2006 Olympics, where we finally standardised our Olympic reporting guidelines. (See here)

Note that the IOC intended the medal count for "information only"... "as it does not recognise global ranking per country." This disclaimer is present for every IOC medal table, from Athens 1896 to Turin 2006. The IOC uses the gold-medal sort method simply for presentation of medal information. It in no way makes claims of one nation's "superiority" over another nation due to the number of medal (types) won. The media and public may use the medal count for that purpose, but not the IOC.

If there's any confusion from editors thinking that the IOC sorting system is not properly reflected in the article name... then change all related articles from "medal count" to "medal table". The latter term is the one used by the IOC. --Madchester (talk) 23:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I would support a movement of pages to "medal table". I note that the WP:OLY convention for section headers in individual sport articles (e.g. Swimming at the 2004 Summer Olympics) is to use "Medal table", and the consistency with the per-Games totals would be welcome. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 23:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

You may have gone through the discussion. I have not, and your earlier decision continues to seem illogical. However, if the only remedy any of you are willing to countenance is a switch of terminology to "medal table," I suppose I'll go along. At least it removes the implication which "medal count" seems to carry to me, and others like me. --68.97.115.26 (talk) 01:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I vote oppose to any sorting system except the IOC official one. Python eggs (talk) 02:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

YAY, VOTING!!! *roll eyes* —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.117.146 (talk) 02:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I saw some edits to this page and came to suggest that maybe a sortable table would solve the problem... but then I see that it's already a sortable table. What's to argue about? (ESkog)^(Talk) 02:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. We have this same discussion every 2 or 4 years when newcomers start editing/browsing Olympics articles on Wikipedia. Folks, this horse has been beaten to death multiple times, and the current format is the consensus, backed up by reliable sources. Several of these lists are also featured, it should be said. Nobody had any issues when these went through the FL candidate process. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 03:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a case of Mr. Anonymous from Oklahoma trying to push his POV and engage in OR. The consensus has been firmly established and should remain. Nirvana888 (talk) 00:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

First of all, congratulations on identifying my location. It must have been difficult. Second, you will please note that I have not edited the medal count one single time -- only the talk page, trying to make a case for a better method of presentation. If I were REALLY trying to push my POV, I would be editing the main page instead, and getting barred for my efforts. As for engaging in OR, I freely admit the charge, but this "capital offense" has only become necessary because so few people on here seem willing to engage in thought at all. --68.97.115.26 (talk) 06:15, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we all must do as you want, eh? Now we have India ahead of France, very logical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.117.146 (talk) 03:15, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Can you list a major media outlet from India or France that arranges it by total medal? or even find one outside of America? the Olympics are organized by the IOC. I do not see an issue if we follow their guidelines on medal count. Find me a list of the amount of times a team has made it to the Super Bowl ranked ahead of the number of times a team has won the Super Bowl, very logical. 209.195.79.131 (talk) 04:59, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Be realistic. There is no prize equivalent to a silver or bronze medal in American football. You sound like the person above, who said that he considered a gold medal worth more than any number of bronzes and silvers, just like he considered a win in the FA Cup or the Super Bowl better than any number of runner-up finishes. To my reply to him above, I will only add that if you show me Cardiff City's silver medal trophy for being FA Cup runners-up, or show me video of the Packers and/or the Chargers mounting the medal podium in bronze position alongside the Giants and Patriots, I will reconsider my position. --68.97.115.26 (talk) 06:15, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Nice of you to reply to only half the argument I presented and totally ignore listing "a major media outlet from India or France that arranges it by total medal? or even find one outside of America?" Also, the Super Bowl's participating teams are referred to as National/American Football Conference champions. I would say that is equivalent to a silver/bronze. Funny how you can use the IOC in favor of you medal count argument and then disargee with them at the same time. Olympians train to win gold. silver and broze are only consolation prizes. When the Olympics plays the national anthem of all 3 medalist I will reconsider my position.

Well here's some video footage of the Cardiff players looking rather dejected as they step up to receive their runners up medals...212.124.225.66 (talk) 08:24, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

You'll see France jump way ahead of India soon. I'm guessing you are show that the U.S. is at the top of the tally right now. Thankfully, none of this will matter soon as China basically has a lock on the Gold and total medals from 2012 and onwards.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

If this would be changed to cumulative medal totals it would be an injustice to the world as a whole. Can anyone name any website or major news outlet based outside of the United States that sorts by total medals? I doubt it as it is simply an issue of American bias. Sticking with the official formatting will keep this article considered legitimate outside of the USA. Weather130 (talk) 15:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Thankfully, the fact that China has now more medals than US, also in the total count, should lessen the number of objections. Anyway, the official IOC count should very logically be the reference. And no, Wikipedia is not the place to correct what the rest of the world is doing. Indeed, this would be the whole point of WP:OR Ratfox (talk) 15:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

To get the section break back on track...

I know that all of you are getting sick of me. I'm sorry about that, I really am. HOWEVER, anyone who is responding to me in this section break has missed its point. Regardless of my exchanges with numerous posters above, the purpose of this section break (initiated by Madchester) was to propose a switch of terminology from "medal count" to "medal table." I support this switch for two reasons:

1) It ends the argument. This would not change your precious sorting system IN ANY WAY, and it would remove my initial reason for objecting to the sorting method. As I have said above, "medal count" implies to me that the medals will be counted by quantity alone, unweighted as to color. Clearly, it does to others as well (though not to the majority of you, I admit). A table, on the other hand, can be organized in any different number of ways.

2) It is the terminology used by the IOC. This alone should win most of you over. See this page for the Turin Games for an example of what I mean. Surely if you're so committed to the IOC counting method, you won't have an objection to the IOC terminology.

Is this an acceptable compromise? --68.97.115.26 (talk) 06:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

It's been called a "medal table" for hours... Dragons flight (talk) 06:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I know, but it's not changed in the article itself (bold text, first paragraph). That's what I was referring to. Would you mind changing it? Once that's done, I will drop the issue forever, I swear. --68.97.115.26 (talk) 06:43, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for changing it, Dragons flight. I still have issues with the way the medals are sorted, but the change of terminology is satisfying enough to me. To the relief of everyone, myself included, I am withdrawing my objection. --68.97.115.26 (talk) 07:06, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

how 20?

how it is possibe 20 medals?maybe 21?? there alwayes should be 3 medals no?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.178.106.115 (talk) 11:40, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

In some events four medals are awarded, two of them bronze, where losing semi-finalists do not play each other for 3rd and 4th places. Strayan (talk) 14:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Two tables?

I noticed that the text says the table will organize first by gold, then by silver, then by bronze. I think it would be better to have two tables, one that organizes by gold through bronze, and one that does it on total medal count (unless rankedmedaltable has a sortable option I've never noticed). Kolindigo (talk) 02:40, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The default is gold, but the table will be sortable, so people will be able to arrange the table to sort by gold, total, silver, bronze or nation. Like this one. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 02:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow, it is sortable. *laughs* Thanks, now I feel like an idiot. Cool functionality! Kolindigo (talk) 03:17, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The table should default sort (and rank) based on total medal count, as that is how the IOC's table is sorted/will be sorted. -- Me^Holla! 22:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the IOC goes by gold medals, they do that with all of their other medal tables, such as this one -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 23:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the whole world except USA goes by gold medals... So this is absolutely correct. Total medal count doesnt make any sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.56.113.248 (talk) 15:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

First gold

On the Current Events section of Wikipedia, there are two news items, each claiming that said event was the first gold of the Games. Perhaps someone here can fix the issue and allow more clarity. Kaiser matias (talk) 05:16, 9 August 2008 (UTC)/

I have a feeling it was the Womens 10m air rifle shooting where the Czech Repulic won that gold 86.132.88.42 (talk) 16:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Olympic Event Medal Table

Can someone put the Individual Event table back up, as i found this really helpful earlier this morning 86.132.88.42 (talk) 15:58, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

It may be helpful, but this is not the right place for it. I'll ask some users if there is precedent for creating an individual page for a list of medalists. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 16:17, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

If we do create a new page, can we try and do this for other olympics i.e the 2000 and 2004 olympics 86.132.88.42 (talk) 16:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I think the Individual Event list was very helpful and should be somewhere on Wikipedia, if not in this article. Seancp (talk) 16:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure we can find the individual medals from any olympics in there indivuidal articals e.g the mens road race that was held this morning 86.132.88.42 (talk) 16:32, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The thing is, there are already pages that sort the medals by event (ie. Fencing at the 2008 Summer Olympics), there are already pages that sort medals by nation (ie. China at the 2008 Summer Olympics) and there is now a page that includes gold medalists (2008 Summer Olympics highlights) so having yet another page of medalists would be overkill. Would it really be that much more useful than the current pages that we have right now? -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 16:37, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it would. Just imagine if your doing a report on whos won what at the games and your internet is on a very slow dial-up connection. Imagine how much time it would take to load all 302 page up 86.132.88.42 (talk) 16:40, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Most people doing such a report would not use wikipedia. You have to remember, wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a sports site. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 16:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

But an encyclopedia has to have everything covered inside out and back to front if you know what i mean 86.132.88.42 (talk) 16:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

An encyclopedia only gives broad coverage about a topic. For example, in film articles we don't describe the entire plot, only major plot details. Please see WP:NOT for what Wikipedia is not. --Madchester (talk) 16:50, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I just think though that whoever thought of that table up this morning had a brilliant idea. All i get is someone on the tv saying that this country won gold. With the Table it breaks the medal count to an easy to read table, and i don't mind filling the table in for past olympics 86.132.88.42 (talk) 16:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I am sure there is a site that lists the medal winners in a table such as is wanted somewhere elsewhere on the internet. (That being said, I haven't looked myself...) Why not just find it and include it in related links and/or references? I don't think it belongs in the wiki, but it's a useful resource for 'pic followers. chicgeek (talk) 13:53, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I strongly agree that having a table that lists the event winners is both useful and not overkill. It allows someone to access the information in one place, not try to figure it out when it is not clear what events have occured. Jvsett (talk) 23:40, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

If someone can publish a new page, I can begin (with others) to fill in both Past Olympics and the 2008 Olympics 86.132.88.42 (talk) 07:49, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Has someone done the Event Table Page? 86.132.88.42 (talk) 18:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Is someone going to start the Event table medal page? 86.137.11.52 (talk) 19:42, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Blue Background

I am very much an advocate of the overall medal count determining the leader, but when users edit the page, it is crucial that China always be highlighted in Blue (or whatever color you like), as the home country._-Z-_ (talk) 23:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

It does. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 23:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Ordering of tied countries

There seems to be at least some edit warring going on regarding the ordering of tied countries in the list. I'd propose a well-defined policy of what the ordering should be - either alphabetical by country name or country code would make the most sense to me. I just think that this needs to be stated somewhere. --Mbell (talk) 02:58, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Country code is probably the better choice. JPG-GR (talk) 02:59, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Searching for precedent at the moment - the 2000 list seems to prefer by country name... but also contradicts itself within itself... JPG-GR (talk) 03:05, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

1996 prefers country name, so does 1992 and 1988. JPG-GR (talk) 03:08, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Going by the official Beijing 2008 medal standings the IOC is using the country codes for the rankings. Since country names can be spelled differently in the two main IOC languages (English and French), I believe the organization uses the country codes for sorting purposes. For example, we don't have one English ranking using "Spain" and one French ranking using "Espagne". --Madchester (talk) 03:13, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

The IOC itself seems to sort by country name in whatever the language is - see the English and French rankings from 2000. I agree with JPG-GR and Madchester that country code is probably the better choice, though. --Mbell (talk) 03:22, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

First, I didn't realize the IOC had separate publications for each language.

On that note, I noticed in the 2000 rankings that both Chinese Taipei (TPE) and Morocco (MAR) are ranked 58th overall. However, instead of following the IOC code, it seems to be going by English spelling, thus Chinese Taipei is listed "before" Morocco.

I think there needs to be more investigation (and discussion) to resolve this matter. --Madchester (talk) 03:26, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Is this only after using silver and bronze medals as second and third tiebreakers? -- Me^Holla! 03:27, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

We're just figuring out what to do if two (or more) countries have the same distribution of medals.

For example, if you review the 2000 English and French standings, the 61st ranked nations are listed differently depending on the language used. I'm leaning towards using the IOC's English table (and sorting method) as our main reference, since this is English Wikipedia. IMHO, the IOC should have simply used the country codes to standardized the listing procedure for tied countries. --Madchester (talk) 03:35, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

We should use either the English names or the country codes. Considering official rankings are put by name, that would be more correct, I guess. I think we all agree that using country codes is better, but alas, it's only our opinion. BalkanFever 03:39, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

To keep it chinese (as the olympics are in beijing), why not put it in stroke order refering to the opening ceromany order. I know its a bit strenuous but it does keep within the host nation 86.132.88.42 (talk) 19:01, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Source?

The table currently says the US has 10 medals, while the official Olympics website lists 8 [1]. Either the table is wrong or people are getting information from some more rapidly updated source. If there is a more current source can people say what it is? Dragons flight (talk) 05:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

The US won two medals in the Men's swimming final at around 22:15 local time (GMT - 08:00)--there is live news coverage of the event here. Dirc (talk) 05:26, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

You mean Phelps and Locte? That happened 3 hours ago. The "live" coverage being fed to the West coast of the US is actually a tape of the live coverage that was shown on the East Coast. Dragons flight (talk) 05:28, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

It looks like there's some double-counting from redundant sources, then. Hopefully the problem will be fixed before the error propagates too far :-/ Dirc (talk) 05:38, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay, as of right now the list matches the official Olympic list. Dragons flight (talk) 05:40, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

The Official Medal Count on the Beijing 2008 Olympics Website does not reflect that the US has additional medals. Also, no additional players are listed on the United States for these medals --Toolofthesystem (talk) 05:49, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Medal count incorrect

The medal count has an extra gold, silver, and bronze medal added to the US' count and an extra gold added to South Korea's count. This is blatant US-centrism editing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.233.156.172 (talk) 05:34, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

See above section: editor error and assume good faith. And sign with the tildes. Kingnavland (talk) 05:39, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Is the policy to only edit the table when the official page is edited? I just had my edit reverted; it was based on what I saw on the US medal count page. If that's the case, that page needs to be reverted too. Otherwise, I'm not exactly sure why the only acceptable source is the official Beijing 2008 page. bluemonq (talk) 05:52, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

An error was made on this page. Someone copied that error to the US page. You then copied it back. Not your fault, but something that needed sorting out. Dragons flight (talk) 06:02, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Why are there (as of this post) 14 bronze medals but only 12 gold and 12 silver? I thought for each event, equal numbers of medals were awarded. This is not a mistake in this article, as I see it is in the source, but an explanation might be useful.-gadfium 05:49, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

See a previous section (by which I mean scroll back up). Apparently there are some sports where semi-finalists don't contest for a single bronze? bluemonq (talk) 05:53, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I see in 2004 Summer Olympics medal count#Medal count there is an explanation: two bronze medals were awarded per event in boxing and judo. An equivalent explanation would be nice in this article.-gadfium 05:54, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

And it's also possible when two swimmer finishes the same time in the final. In this case two medals of the same color will be awarded with no next medal (for example 2 gold medals, 0 silver, 1 bronze). It happened maybe 2000 (or 2004) in the men's 50m freestyle. (sorry for poor english :)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.97.30.127 (talk) 07:45, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I was about to indicate that, there is an offset of 1 extra Silver medal or perhaps 1 less gold, anyway basing on what you said maybe it's good to form a new section or maybe a new page where we indicated where 2 medals of the same color were given in cases of a tie.z nihilist (talk) 11:37, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Links in Table

The section links for each number will make it a lot harder to update the table. I propose that the country name links to the relevant "Medallists" section, and that the numbers be de-linked. BalkanFever 05:55, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Currently, the Gold, Silver, and bronze medals are linked to the corresponding *subsection* of the nations page. Some readers find this more convenient than just linking the flag to the nations page (but not the medalist subsection). Others seem to find it unnecessary, since all it saves the reader is a scroll down the nations page, and is inconvenient to the editors. Since there has been some editing going on back and fourth, let's try to agree on how we should link to the medal list. I propose convenienve of the reader before inconenience of the editors. Esprungo 05:59, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

They look like shit...and they make it harder to update. Plus the country link goes to that article anyway. --CWY2190(talk • contributions) 06:02, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The existing precedent in all the other medal count articles work best. The "Medallists" section is at the top of each linked country article, so the additional internal links are redundant. See "Wikipedia is not mere collections of internal links" --Madchester (talk) 06:05, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, somebody please do it then. Too hard for me ;) BalkanFever 06:12, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. Unless someone can explain why we need to have 4 internal links to the same article (and thus violate Wikipedia:NOTLINK) I think we'll stick to the precedent established by past articles. --Madchester (talk) 06:21, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Template for Olympic Medal count

hi, I made a template for Olympic Medal count. So, I think it's useful and easy to use . This is a preview:

{{Olympic Medal header|class=wikitable sortable}}
{{Olympic Medal team |p=1 |t=CHN |c=2008 Summer |g=3 |s=1 |b=0 |bg=ccccff }}
{{Olympic Medal team |p=2 |t=USA |c=2008 Summer |g=2 |s=2 |b=4 }}
{{Olympic Medal team |p=3 |t=KOR |c=2008 Summer |g=2 |s=1 |b=0 }}
{{Olympic Medal total|g=7 |s=5 |b=4}}
{{Olympic Medal footer}}

Any suggestion to improve.--KSA¹³ 07:15, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

First off, can you make it Olympic Medal ;) BalkanFever 07:43, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Y Done :):)--KSA¹³ 09:30, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

The template looks great, but I think it can do without the additional internal links for each medal column. In the example above, there would be 5 internal links leading to the same "China at the 2008 Olympics" page and that would violate WP:NOTLINK. (On the other hand, Roger_Federer#Singles_performance_timeline has a table containing many internal links, but they all lead to different event articles so it doesn't violate WP:NOTLINK.) --Madchester (talk) 15:34, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Y internal links removed.--KSA¹³ 23:48, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

It looks okay but I'm not sure what the point is. The point of a template is to save space, and using that would just make things even longer. As well, I don't think we would need to link to "____ at the Summer Olympics" five consecutive times. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 15:46, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Those templates work good for football, but I don't think they work here. Its actually simpler to see the order and number of medals in the table format when editing. -CWY2190(talk • contributions) 23:30, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Is it really needed to sort the first column (rank)? Maxime.Debosschere (talk) 16:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

real rankings

how do they really determine who wins @ olympics? is it by point value 3-2-1 or total medals or total golds or what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.133.65.158 (talk) 19:16, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

The medal count is just the IOC's way of sorting the relative position of each country's performance. The IOC strictly states that this in not a national ranking and thus there is no such thing as an "overall winner" of the Olympics. For example, China won't get a special prize for winning the most golds, nor will the States win one for having the most medals.

For sorting purposes, the IOC places emphasis on gold medals, as described at the top of the article. --Madchester (talk) 19:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

You are correct that the IOC places emphasis on gold medals, but the official medal count ranks countries by the TOTAL medal count. This needs to be changed on the main page! Proof: http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/INF/GL/95A/GL0000000.shtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cdnomad (talk • contribs) 06:16, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

That page is ranked by golds. Dragons flight (talk) 06:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

it's (outside the US) worldwide common practice to count the gold-winners first

Suggestion

Okay. I know this is a wiki. However, given the events of last night, in which everyone was adding and subtracting medals due to mass confusion, perhaps we should ask the admins to create designated editors to update the medal count and put the page on full protect. Rationale:

This page should only be updated a few times each day. There are 13 medal events on Day 3 of the Games; therefore, there should be 13 edits. Any other edits are not constructive and, depending on the severity, could be considered vandalism. (Obviously, page formatting and stuff would be different; however, that stuff should be discussed on the talk page anyway.)

The need to reliably disseminate accurate information is more important than letting any user edit in what they think is correct based on tape-delayed coverage, late reports, etc.

Feel free to disregard me, attack me, draw-and-quarter me as necessary. Kingnavland (talk) 20:08, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you, but it won't happen. You could try taking the case to WP:RFP, but I can guarantee you it won't be protected. The solution is simple, people need to stop the impulse editing and check to make sure the medal hasn't already been added to the total. One user tried listing all of the days events in hidden text and having people remove them once they updated the page, but it didn't work so well. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 20:16, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Scorpion, thanks for the input. I rather liked the hidden text, as I couldn't find an article anywhere that listed the medal events by day in text form rather than that chart. I will take it to WP:RFP. Kingnavland (talk) 20:28, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

-after protection denied- What a buffoon. Same administrator semi-protected this page for 3 days - as though the problem will disappear in 3 days. Kingnavland (talk) 21:19, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

• Indeed, it's not as if there won't be any new editors during the remaining days. I don't think long-term semi/full protection will happen, which is a pity; I believe this might be a result of there not being enough admins. --92.104.153.110 (talk) 12:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

For the record and to his credit, same admin extended the semiprotection until the end of the Games. Kingnavland (talk) 12:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Picture

Obviously there's some disagreement about whether an image is needed or wanted here or not - I leave it to others to grapple over that. But if an image is indeed desired, why not have the one of the medals themselves? chicgeek ^talk 00:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

It can't be used because it's a non free image and those are strongly discouraged on list pages like this. I have no problem with using the current image for the time being. Eventually, an image of the medals or medals being awarded will become available, and we can switch to that. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 00:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

titles

the USA should be referred to as "USA" or "United States of America" that's the official title, the rest of the official titles are used, so "United States" just won't cut it...

I also recommend changing "China" to People's Republic... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.133.65.158 (talk) 06:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia's convention is to use common names rather than unnecessarily long formal versions. Hence we prefer "United States" to "United States of America", etc. Dragons flight (talk) 06:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

And plus you forgot "South Korea" to Republic of Korea, "Norht Korea" to Democratic People's Republic of Korea, "Russia" to Russian Fredration, etc. I think it is better to be left alone as Dragons flight had said. — ■~∀SÐFﾑｻ~■ =] ^{Babashi? antenna?} 06:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

And my favorite, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. -CWY2190(talk • contributions) 06:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Haha, that's funny. Didn't know about that full title. That said, regardless of character count, it's unlikely anyone will mistake the "United States" for another country. --92.104.153.110 (talk) 12:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

He has a point, at least change the China one... That can get confusing. I also say change US to USA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.20.25.186 (talk) 20:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

If you look at the previous games it has the same names for many years, it did not had a problem for the past 28 games. — ■~∀SÐFﾑｻ~■ =] ^{Babashi? antenna?} 08:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Note/comment for all-time medal firsts per nation?

During the parade of nations, I recall the NBC commentators stating that certain countries (I don't remember which) have never won a single medal at all during any Olympic games. Have any won their first medal so far, and if so, can/should a note be made in this article? --92.104.153.110 (talk) 11:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Has any country won a first medal? I trierd to google for it but too many false positives came up ("first individual gold medal", "first medal of this games", etc.) Rmhermen (talk) 15:25, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Cross-referencing with All-time Olympic Games medal count, it appears Tajikistan is the only country so far that is recieving a medal for the first time. This source [2] confirms that it is Tajikistan's first medal. I'm not sure whether we would want to track this on an ongoing basis though. Dragons flight (talk) 22:16, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Togo just got their first as well. Rmhermen (talk) 17:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

European Union

It would be interesting to add the combined total of the European Union to the table.

This is what is would look like:

1	European Union	11	13	9	33
2	China (CHN)	9	3	2	14
3	South Korea (KOR)	4	4	0	8
4	United States (USA)	3	4	5	12
5	Australia (AUS)	2	0	3	5
6	Japan (JPN)	2	0	2	4

85.5.187.219 (talk) 18:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

This was suggested during the 2006 Olympics, but was met with a lot of opposition, and I think it's reasonable to conclude that since nations compete separately for themselves, there's no reason to conglomerate results for the purpose of making the region look better. Jared (t)  18:26, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Plus, the EU does not have its own National Olympics Committee. Each EU member countries have their own and compete amongst each other. Heilme (talk) 18:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, many sports only allow one or two teams to enter from each country. The EU would presumably have many fewer chances to medal if the entire EU were limited to only one or two teams per event, hence it is not an entirely fair comparison. Dragons flight (talk) 18:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. Still, it might be interesting to compile a table comparing the different continents. 85.5.187.219 (talk) 18:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

This is a rediculous idea because several competitors from the several European nations are competing at once in one event. For example, in an event where you are limited to a certain amount of competitors, China would be limited to 1 or 2 competitors, whereas France, Great Britain, and the rest of the European nations are allowed their 1 or 2 competitors. This represents an overwhelming overrepresentation. As whole Europe has a lot more chances to win if they're throwing more than a single country's fair share of competitors into the match. Imagine if the US team was limited to one competitor at any one event and they decided to bring 5 competitors for that same event. Obviously their chances at medals exceed much more than if they had just sent 1. Of course, this would be cheating and would never happen. Neither should the medals of all the EU or European countries be lumped together. It is "cheating" and quite honestly just childish. 69.111.17.49 (talk) 21:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Now, that wouldn't be fair to the Antarcticans. :P Heilme (talk) 19:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Don't be silly. They only compete in the Winter Games. Dragons flight (talk) 19:08, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The Antartican beach-volleyball team is more competitive than the Jamaican bobsled team! 85.5.187.219 (talk) 19:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe the above posters covered most of this, but I'll throw in another take on it for anyone still reading this and thinking about it. Suppose every U.S. state was allowed to compete separately in the Olympics. People would cry foul about US-centrism, and rightly so, if Michael Phelps took the gold medal while competitors from the same country took the silver and bronze. Giving a combined score for the EU here is the equivalent of doing just that, because every EU member competes as a separate entity. The EU idea would work if there was some equivalent of the Unified Team at the 1992 Summer Olympics whereby the EU members were collectively represented once in each competition - but I wouldn't hold my breath for that. Hopefully this helps put things into perspective. Thompsontough (talk) 06:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Superpowers medal tally

Actually, here is a more accurate portrayal:

1	European Union	11	13	9	33
2	China (CHN)	10	3	3	16
5	United States (USA)	6	6	8	20
3	Japan (JPN) (includes the former Japanese colonies)	6	4	3	11
4	Great Britain (GBR) (Includes the Commonwealth countries)	6	2	4	12
6	Russia (RUS) (Includes the former Soviet SSRs)	1	4	5	10

--Amazonien (talk) 00:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget the UN. Heilme (talk)

And NATO. -CWY2190(talk • contributions) 02:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm assuming this was a joke. But for the record, no, this page isn't for alternate histories about the British Empire and Soviet Union being intact. ;) Thompsontough (talk) 06:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

It's amusing as a point of discussion (though it's probably completely out of place in the Wiki)... But are the British medals being counted twice, for both the EU list and the British Empire list? And shouldn't the British Empire be taking credit for all of the medals won by their former colony in North America? 212.124.225.66 (talk) 12:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

But what if the athlete isn't from one of the original 13 colonies (states)? Do they still get credit for that? -CWY2190(talk • contributions) 22:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Unranked at bottom

1	China (CHN)	9	3	2	14
2	South Korea (KOR)	4	4	0	8
3	United States (USA)	3	4	5	12
4	Australia (AUS)	2	0	3	5
5	Japan (JPN)	2	0	2	4
-	European Union	11	13	9	33

Unranked at the bottom is the only possibility, but as other have mentioned having more teams than any single nation makes it kinda meaningless. Only slightly interesting to see. --85.197.248.132 (talk) 16:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

After all we have total medal count as it has some meaning. The medals are nowhere equal and can not be summed. It's just interesting like the total medal count, even though it has no real meaning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.197.248.132 (talk) 16:23, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

If the European Union going to be added on the end there should also be African Union, Union of South American Nations, Association of Southeast Asian Nations etc. added onto the chart without rank also.

1	China (CHN)	13	3	4	20
2	United States (USA)	7	7	8	22
3	South Korea (KOR)	5	6	1	12
4	Germany (GER)	4	1	1	6
5	Italy (ITA)	3	4	2	9
-	European Union	11	13	9	33
-	Association of Southeast Asian Nations	1	1	2	4
-	African Union	0	2	2	4
-	Union of South American Nations	0	0	4	4

— ■~∀SÐFﾑｻ~■ =] ^{Babashi? antenna?} 00:56, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

What about Commonwealth of Independent States? (Also, Georgia said they were leaving yesterday - possibly because of what's happening in South Ossetia - would they be included or not?) If someone wants to add them, be my guest. DitzyNizzy (aka Jess) (talk) 09:43, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Automatic Updates

The Spanish Wikipedia page have [a program] (mine) for the automatic update of the table. --JoaquinFerrero (talk) 02:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

All-time Olympic Games individual medal count

We have All-time Olympic Games medal count. Given all the talk about Michael Phelps tying others in individual medal count, any chance in someone creating the article all-time Olympic Games individual medal count? Suntag (talk) 08:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

See List of multiple Olympic gold medalists — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 08:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

And, Olympic Games#All-time Olympic Games individual medal count. Suntag (talk) 08:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

ESPN

Conspiracy theory: The reason why ESPN (and maybe Yahoo!) ranks by total medals instead of gold medals is to make it appear the U.S. is leading... –Howard the Duck 14:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

A little insecure in the Philipines, eh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.117.146 (talk) 03:12, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Michael Phelps can mine more gold than an entire country in 200 years. –Howard the Duck 05:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

*YAWN* News outlets in the US have ranked by total medal count for as long as I can remember (at least since the 1992 Olympics, probably before). Seancp (talk) 14:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, right - http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer08/fanguide/history?year=2004&type=medals 85.222.54.163 (talk) 15:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, and I guess this falls under the category of "original research", but I remember someone raising exactly this objection about the United States during a previous Olympics. He eventually proved to me that the "Gold Centric" method is indeed the IOC and world standard, but all the American outlets I could find on Games prior to that one did show that American media ranking by total medals had been going on for quite some time. Obviously I don't have the links available to me, but this is hardly a new phenomenon.Alanmjohnson (talk) 16:14, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Page move

Following the discussion here Talk:2008_Summer_Olympics_medal_count#Section_break, I'm moving/re-naming all Olympic "medal count" articles to "medal table". --Madchester (talk) 01:13, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Michael Phelps' Ranking

Michael Phelps should be ranked, seeing as how if he were a country he would be in a tie for second with South Korea, behind only China. USA loses 5 golds due to Michael Phelps declaring independence, leaving them in fourth with only 4 gold medals. Phelps does indeed retain a tie for second, since the table sorts by gold medals, not total medals, and Michael comes before South in the alphabet.

1	China (CHN)	13	3	5	21
2	South Korea (KOR)	5	6	1	12
3	Michael Phelps	5	0	0	5
4	United States (USA)	4	7	9	20
5	Italy (ITA)	4	4	2	10

Bjquinn (talk) 04:06, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if you are kidding or not, but in the Olympics medals are only counted by country by the IOC.Mr.crabby (Talk) 04:29, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

In addition, you break ties by looking at silvers, so Phelpsyvania is third. Dragons flight (talk) 04:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, of course, that depends on whether you would rank the Dallas Cowboys who are 5-3 in the Super Bowl or the San Francisco 49ers, who are a perfect 5-0, higher. Phelpsyvania has a perfect record, so he remains second. The per capita medal count is staggering. Bjquinn (talk) 04:37, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

With the way that the IOC sorts (by gold, then silver to tie-break, then bronze), Phelps would be third. bluemonq (talk) 05:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry but Phelpsyvania can't be considered perfect. They didn't even qualify for most of the events. They can't get credit for failing to compete in gymnastics, judo, and weight lifting, etc. Dragons flight (talk) 05:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry. Although still very impressive, Phelps would only be ranked 5th in the medal tally not 3rd. Plus, the relay medals he won could not be considered to be solely his. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.24.139.57 (talk) 16:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Transcluding table

I've put <noinclude> tags round the parts of the article which aren't the table, to allow the table part to be transcluded into user pages, if other users want to do this. It doesn't seem to cause any problems, but if it does, feel free to revert. See my user page for an example of it in use. —  Tivedshambo  _(t/c) 05:45, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Repechage

can someone make the following edit to this sentence: --> old: "In boxing, judo, taekwondo and wrestling, two bronze medals were awarded in each weight class." --> new: "In boxing, judo, taekwondo and wrestling, two bronze medals were awarded in each weight class under the repechage system." -- i think it helps clarify why multiple bronze medals are being awarding in these events. 220.76.15.213 (talk) 15:45, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that this is helpful. Repechage also exists in the rowing events but ultimately they have only a single bronze, hence repechage per se does not require two bronzes. Dragons flight (talk) 18:08, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

There are no repechages in boxing - bronze medals are awarded to both losing semifinallists. DitzyNizzy (aka Jess) (talk) 08:13, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Medal winner images

Using images of medal winners on this page isn't unreasonable (provided they are free content), but I do think it is rather biased to have three of the four winners shown be from the United States and all of them be men. Some diversity would be a good thing. Dragons flight (talk) 18:05, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I was having trouble finding pictures over medal winners from other countries. Some help would be good. --Mr.crabby (Talk) 18:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

It's been discussed with others, there are simply no other pictures at the moment. Even a search of the Creative Commons sections of Flickr has not provided us with any photos which we can use. The359 (talk) 20:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Picture of an athlete from the host country should definitely be included. I guess we'll have to wait until the Games end to see how the medal count plays out. 70.24.139.57 (talk) 01:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the point of them all being male - I think we'll have difficulty getting pictures with both men and women as the only sport where they compete alongside is the equestrian. Otherwise there might be some "group shot" at the end of the games which would be good IMO. Witty Lama 02:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

There is Mixed Doubles in Badminton, not that we'd likely find a picture for the award ceremonies for that. The359 (talk) 02:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

It is also permissible to use free use images of athletes outside of the Beijing Games. --Madchester (talk) 02:32, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

308 events? 308 gold medals? 924 total? +- a few extra for ties?

How many medals currently have been won out of how many? This may be useful/interesting to have on the article. Thanks. Emesee (talk) 20:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

To this point 225 medals have been awarded. Link Blackngold29 20:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

According to the event calendar on the main page for 2008 Summer Olympics, there will be 302 gold medals awarded. Kingnavland (talk) 03:15, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

maybe it should be noted as a minimum of 302 gold medals because ties could result in additional medals although unlikely Weather130 (talk) 23:17, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Judo and wrestling give 2 bronze —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.227.194 (talk) 13:05, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

ERROR - Can't find it.

According to the Official Beijing 2008 medal table, there have been 89 bronze medals handed out and 235 overall. We have 88 handed out and 234 overall. So I went through and compared each country's individual count and I couldn't find the discrepancy. Assistance would be appreciated. Kingnavland (talk) 03:25, 14 August 2008 (UTC) TIMELOOP: Now it's a question: does the total row not update automatically? Because the 4x200 women's free was included, and the totals didn't update. I changed it to reflect the official count from the Beijing 2008 medal table. Kingnavland (talk) 03:53, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Medal Ranking - Everytime the same confusion in the US....

I'm really surprised here. Why are US-Americans everytime confused about the common medal rank (by gold)? Everytime they have to discover that the whole world is counting by gold medals, counting by olympic champions and not by non-champions. the whole world including the IOC is doing this, and it makes sense. Here in the discussion i can read americans posting "It is common sense ranking by total medals". Even after those posters get the information that the USA is the only country in the world counting by totals, they still believe (and post) that total medal count is "common sense". Uhm ?!? Why do they think that their American TV Stations define the "common sense" for the worldwide wikipedia medal table, and why do they believe this again and again? Do they forget it after 4 years and are surprised again or how can this be explained? 11:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

While I understand your concern, that conversation has been resolved and further discussion (especially in a rant-against-Americans format that isn't advocating any change of the current page, since your desired display is what is currently featured on the page) is highly uncalled for. This isn't a message board, it's a Talk page for discussion about edits. Scm621 (talk) 13:02, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you. Thats exactly my point. The matter is resolved (long time ago), but every 4 years americans are confused again and start with this matter. Thats what can not be easily understood. 16:15, 14 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.56.81.216 (talk)

Maybe because each time it's different Americans entering the debate each time? You convince individuals, not a whole country.Alanmjohnson (talk) 16:47, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I have seen some news reports use the total medal ranking (ESPN for example), so that may contribute to it. But as far as WP goes there is no need to continue this discussion further, it has already been resolved. Blackngold29 16:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Summing the medal as if they had equal value is so blatantly wrong and disrespectful to the (gold) winners. --212.30.195.50 (talk) 22:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

What could be done as an additional indicator of the olympic performance of a country is give a different weight to the medals and sum them up. For instance: Gold = 3, Silver = 2 and Bronze = 1 (in that case China would currently have 69+18+5=92 and the US would have 42+24+18=84) OR Gold = 5, Silver = 3 and Bronze = 1. Themanwithoutapast (talk) 09:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

The last thing these medal table articles need is some WP:Original research. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 09:38, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Gold=100|Silver=10|Bronzw=1 it matches the best with the official count —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.227.194 (talk) 13:02, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Table Width

I can't figure out how to change it, but I think it would look a lot better if the Nation column were widened such that each flag, country name, and IOC code would fit on a single line. China, being on one line, looks good. United States and South Korea, being split between two lines, looks worse. Germany and Australia, with the flag on one line and the name below it, looks worse yet. There's certainly plenty of room on the page to make it possible. Alanmjohnson (talk) 16:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The table's width of each colums automatically adjusts to the width of the longest item in it. If this is not the case for you, it is most probably because your browser window is not wide enough. It doesn't help that at the moment (at least for my screen layout), the top of the table is above the bottom of the 2008 Summer Olympics Info-Box, which encroaches on the maximum available width for the table in a browser window. This is very likely to change in due time, though, as more text is added. --Flosch (talk) 18:26, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Gold Medal Count as of end of Aug 14

Just noticed that 85 gold medals have been awarded per country chart, yet medals to be awarded per your events chart shows that 87 medals should be awarded by the end of August 14. Juve2000 (talk) 19:05, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

You are right. Due to bad weather, some rowing and canoeing events had to be rescheduled to day 7, including both finals in canoeing. I changed it in the main event table. (On a side note, to the other editors of this page, this also explains why those two events were listed by me, and then just rotted there. So it wasn't me mixing it up, since they were still scheduled last night. I thought I was getting old.) --Flosch (talk) 19:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

"Image is biased towards the Americans"

Like it or not, it is the only free image available that shows all three medal recipients, so it is the most appropriate for the page. And please note that the image of the medals is fair use, so its use should be minimalized to one or two articles. Besides, the current one does show a Hungarian, so is it biased towards them too? I'm curious, if we had an image that had two Brits or two Canadians, would people be so concerned about potential bias? -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 21:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Well it just so happens that the image contains two Americans coming in 1st and 2nd place, and I bet money that it was an American that put it there. To me that is telling me that the Americans are the most successful team, which they are not. I think the photo should be taken off the article. I am British and if a saw to British people in that photo I would have the same views. In23065 (talk) 21:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, you owe me money because I added it [3] and I'm a Canadian. You're reading too much into the image, it just shows a group of medalists. If a better one comes along, we'll add it to the page too. How about this, since you're so upset about showing two Americans, why not switch it to the cropped version that just shows Michael Phelps? Then that will just be one American. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 21:32, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Canadian, American, more or less the same thing. In23065 (talk) 21:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

You do remember that both countries submit their own athletes, right? In the context of the olympics (all other contexts omitted) they are NOT the same thing--Matt D (talk) 09:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

An image with Michael Phelps is entirely appropriate for this article, no matter what nationalistic POV you favor. (And I'm not American either.) — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 21:40, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

If we have to use an image that involves nations, I think we should use the 100 metres podium image, when it happens, as that is the most iconic event out of all of the events and therefore makes sense. In23065 (talk) 21:44, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

And if Tyson Gay wins that, you won't cry foul? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 21:53, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd argue that and say that the marathon is the most iconic event. ;) And no, I will not argue about this minor point and open another can of worms. In my opinion, the preference for an image on the page is like this:

1) A picture of the medals in close-up.

2) A picture from a mixed event (e.g. mixed doubles in Badminton, or equestrian teams), with the medals clearly visible. Badminton has the advantage of having a high chance of winners from different continents on the podium.

3) A picture of any random event, with the medals clearly visible.

Of course, the licence of the image is important, which means that the currently available medal-only image is not a very good choice. --Flosch (talk) 22:04, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree, give it some time (probably until after the games) and a close-up of the medals might become available. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 22:07, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

When a better picture is available (preferably something showing athletes on the actual podium), it will be placed here. It is not biased if it is the only picture we have available. A picture is something this article should have, and we're using what we have. The359 (talk) 05:46, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Not linking to "(Country)_at_the_2008_Summer_Olympics"

In the first paragraph, The Marshall Islands, Montenegro and Tuvalu are linked to their country pages, not their respective 2008 Summer Olympics pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.233.4.56 (talk) 03:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done by [[::User:Kingnavland|Kingnavland]] ([[::User talk:Kingnavland|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Kingnavland|contribs]]). (diff) Jeremyb (talk) 05:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Hidden message

Who added that hidden message and what is the purpose? The "This list was last updated..." is completely unencyclopedic, and I feel as if that hidden note is preemptive. This chart is copied completely from the only reference and I think the only note that needs to be there is "Please do not add medals if it conflicts with the reference" or something like that.

I'll be bold and remove it, but feel free to add it if there is a legit reason for its placement there. --haha169 (talk) 03:34, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

There is. Without it, even more people would just keep adding the same results without cross checking and it would become a huge mess. I agree that it's not very encyclopedic, but it's only temporary. I readded it, because it has made a huge difference from the first few days. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 03:38, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

The first nights of the Games, we were reverting tons of good-faith edits because people were impulse-editing in the same medals 5 or 6 times, and there was mass confusion and hysteria. There hasn't been that since the message was there. It's very useful for those of us editors who have been consistently editing this page. Kingnavland (talk) 03:45, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Doping

A new section and update on medal counts with this story on doping stripping the PRK medal? http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/15/2336655.htm?site=olympics/2008

No update on the athelete's profile, medal standing, and official results on the Beijing 2008 site yet. --Kvasir (talk) 05:18, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I have put in a paragraph, but not updated the medal standings yet. Chanheigeorge (talk) 05:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC)