Talk:Lord Byron

Polis

Friends, does anyone know which Greek city called "Polis" Byron have been in? In Cyprus or in Crete? If you know, plz corect the link to Polis in "Byron and the Armenians" section--Armatura 09:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Most likely this refers to Constantinople which is "the City" of the Hellenic world. But I have no proof. I don't know if Byron ever went to Constantinople.Argos'Dad 14:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, but nope, it surely was not Istanbul, but a city in Greece. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Armatura (talk • contribs) 22:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC).

In 1810 Byron & Hobhouse did visit the Dardanelles 'Troy' & Constantinopolis and, imitating Leander, swam across the straits; according to John Cam Hobhouse's diary at http://www.hobby-o.com/smyrna.php M@T arragano 03:22, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything in here about Mary Ann Chaworth, but I have heard she was an important influence on his life. Should something be added?

85.117.42.52 07:25, 18 May 2007 (UTC) Christopher Michel

I have now added information about Chaworth.--Gloriamarie (talk) 22:48, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Applesnpeaches (talk) 02:57, 14 December 2007 (UTC) "Polis" in Greek means city - it may have been a term to imply any city or town. (Hence the origin of the term politics)
Constantinople was also called "H Polis" = "The City" - since it was the capital of the Byzantine Empire and thus biggest or most central city of Byzantium. So, it may not be a particular city you are after, but a poetic means to refer to any greek or non greek city. Applesnpeaches (talk) 02:57, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Doherty

I've removed the following line : "Byron's influence also extends as far as infamous British singer-songwriter and poet Pete Doherty who has cited Lord Byron as having a significant impact upon his moral philosophy, poetry and lyrics." It is surely a stretch of the imagination to label Doherty (a rock musician who, according to his wiki article, has no listed writings outside his song lyrics) a poet and philosopher, especially when it seems to be only he himself who is claiming this. If he has claimed it, such trivia should appear under the Doherty article (with appropriate citation) and not under Byron. I don't know immediately know who to suggest, but I am sure there are umpteen better-known and more-clearly-influenced parties who can be mentioned to demonstrate Byron's wide influence. Tobermory 01:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi - Doherty is a poet and has had quite a bit of work published esp. in London underground magazine 'Full Moon Empty Sports Bag'. I believe he also attended a school-trip to Russia after winning a poetry competition. No sources at the moment im afraid, but theyre in the biographies. No sure about the philosophical influence..i also dont think he's suitably influenced by B to be in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.60.98.133 (talk) 13:24, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

GA fail and review

This article fails GA immediately because it lacks proper citations:

• This article needs inline citations. All disputable claims need to be sourced to reliable sources, in this case most often academic books about Byron. I have added fact tags in many places throughout the article to illustrate what kinds of statements need sources. See WP:CITE, WP:RS and WP:ATT for a thorough explanation of citing.
• All quotations must be sourced.

The article has a lot of good information, but its organization and prose could be better. A few sections need to be expanded or condensed, but, overall, this is a good start (the biggest problem is the lack of citations):

• The lead is not a stand-alone summary of the article per WP:LEAD: "The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, summarizing the most important points, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies, if there are any. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic according to reliable, published sources."
• The "Name" section is a bit hard to follow. Try to retain only the essentialy information and to outline it more clearly.

• Wentworth was Lady Byron's eventual title, her surname before marriage had been Milbanke. The Noels had inherited it from the Wentworths in 1745. - I am not sure this is necessary, but if it is, it is odd to end on it because it is out of chronological order.

• The "Early life" section does not flow very well. Try to make the paragraphs more of a coherent whole rather than a list of unrelated statements.
• "Beginning of a poet career" starts awkwardly; the chronology also becomes unclear because some of these texts you have mentioned before. I would refrain from having two sections about the same text within the "Biography" section of the article. Make it as clear as possible when a book was written and published.

• It also introduces the concept of the "Byronic hero" without explaining it at all.

• In the "Political career" section, you list a lot of poems without discussing them at all. To a reader ignorant of Byron, this is not particularly enlightening.

• Note, "The Landlords' Interest" will not be found in any Byron anthology, it is Canto XIV of "The Age Of Bronze" (1823). - This kind of information belongs in a footnote.

• "Affairs and Scandals" section begins awkwardly with "he" - always start a new section with "Byron" to be clear. The last paragraph swerves from topic to topic a lot - it needs better organization. Also, the list of poems is a problem for the ignorant reader.
• In the "Poetic works" section, you say that Don Juan is important, but you don't really explain it is about. Since this is one of Byron's most important works, I would suggest saying a bit more about it.
• Do not list the attributes of the Byronic hero - write them out in prose. You might think about including an example of the Byronic hero from Byron's work to illustrate it. Plenty of such explanations with examples exist in the scholarly literature about Byron.
• In your one-paragraph analysis of Byron's poetry, it is unclear whose claims these are. Because you have no sources, they appear to be yours. You must rely on literary criticism here. An expansion of the discussion of Byron's literary works might not be a bad idea, either.
• I would integrate the "Parthenon marbles" section into the biography section. It would work better there since the section itself is so tiny.
• I would also integrate the material that is currently in the "Character" section into the appropriate sections of the "Biography." They are oddly separated here.
• The "Lasting influence" section is woefully short on Byron's literary influence, what might be considered the most important aspect of his influence. It should also discuss how Byron is often considered the first "celebrity" - this information is available in most scholarly biographies of Byron.
• The "Fictional depictions" subsection is a list in prose. Try to codense this material into a few paragraphs, selecting only the most important representations. If there is a lot of information, you might think about creating a "Byron in popular culture" article (see Moby-Dick in popular culture for an example.) All of this material needs to be sourced as well.
• The "External links" need to be pruned.
• Many of the sentences in the article are awkwardly phrased:

• Ex: "Hours of Idleness", which collected many of the previous poems, along with more recent compositions, was the culminating book. (Also any book title should be italicized.)
• Ex: While some authors resented being satirized in its first edition, over time in subsequent editions it became a mark of prestige to be the target of Byron's cool pen. - What exactly does "cool pen" mean here?
• Ex: Ultimately he was to live abroad to escape the censure of British society, where men could be forgiven for sexual misbehaviour only up to a point, one which Byron far surpassed.
• Ex: In 1816 Byron visited Saint Lazarus Island in Venice where he acquainted himself with Armenian culture by the Mekhitarist Order. - Doesn't make sense.
• Ex: His profound lyricism and ideological courage has inspired many Armenian poets, the likes of Fr. Ghevond Alishan, Smbat Shahaziz, Hovhannes Tumanyan, Ruben Vorberian and others. - What is "ideological courage"?
• Ex: Byron employed a fire-master to prepare artillery and took part of the rebel army under his own command and pay, despite his lack of military experience, but before the expedition could sail, on 15 February 1824, he fell ill, and the usual remedy of bleeding weakened him further. - Too much for one sentence. Awadewit | talk 19:37, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I have done a lot of these and added a lot more information. --Gloriamarie (talk) 22:49, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

No mention of his swim across the Dardanelles?

Middle name

So why isn't this as George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron; as it used to be? Using George Byron, without the middle name, is unusual. I propose to move it back. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I concur. Far too many peer articles take out the middle name for no good reason. john k 18:24, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

The move was apparently made by Phoe nearly a year ago with no discussion. john k 18:25, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll be bold, then. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Move to George Gordon Byron?

I don't think Wikipedia's style is to include honorific titles in the person's name (unless it's the best way to disambugiate the title)

George Gordon Byron is enough to uniquely identify the person. I think the article should be moved to that name, and leave the "6th Baron Byron" in bold as the full person's name in the first sentence of the introductory paragraph. 24.83.195.130 09:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

He is almost universally known to history and art as 'Lord Byron'. Why should the wikipedia set up its own claims as to proper modes of address? Is it because most of the contributors are American and have a cultural POV about the use of titles? Colin4C 18:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Americans call him "Lord Byron" too and aren't obsessed with putting titles on everyone English. I'd actually assumed every British person being called by long titles was some kind of Britishism.--T. Anthony (talk) 03:26, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

It's not a claim as to "proper" address - and I can do without the personal attack on Americans. It is general Wikipedia policy (including in UK articles, and I believe in non-English language wikis as well) that honorifics are not used in article titles. Better to just use the name. For instance, "Muhammad" instead of "The Prophet Muhammad", "Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom" instead of "Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith", "Ivan IV of Russia" instead of "Ivan the Terrible", "Mao Zedong" instead of "Chairman Mao" - heck, even "Palpatine" instead of "Emperor Palpatine".

Now substantive titles are ok, since it's essentially part of the name in that case. "Charles, Prince of Wales" is used, for instance. In my opinion, this article really should be under "George Gordon, Lord Byron". You may wish to check the guidelines and see if you feel my interpretation is correct, as there's ambiguity in the guide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_%28names_and_titles%29

Vonspringer (talk) 18:29, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The article is good where it is. It is consistent with many other articles. --WPLanders (talk) 04:32, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Date of Death - Julian or Gregorian?

At the time of Byron's death, Greece was still using the Julian (Old Style) calendar, which at that time had a 12-day discrepancy from the Gregorian (New Style). Is "19 April" shown as it was in Greece, ie. an Old-Style date that would be equivalent to 1 May in the rest of Europe; or did he die on 7 April under the Old-Style calendar and it has already been converted to 19 April in the Gregorian? Whichever is the case, I think we should make a note of it for inquisitive people like me. -- JackofOz 04:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Applesnpeaches (talk) 03:03, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I was under the impression that the time discrepancy was 13 days. Applesnpeaches (talk) 03:03, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

It became 13 days from February 1900, but was 12 days in the 19th century, 11 days in the 18th, and 10 days in the 17th and back to 1582. In the Julian calendar every 4th year is a Leap Year, but in the Gregorian Calendar some 4th years are not - 1700, 1800 and 1900, for example. 28 February 1900 (Gregorian) was followed by 1 March, but 28 February 1900 (Julian) was followed by 29 February. See Gregorian calendar for lots more details. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:52, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Name section

The Name section, which leads off the body of the article is confused. First rule of biography, do *not* discuss characters not yet introduced. WHO are these people? We're treated to an exhaustive enumeration of his names in regard to people in his ancestral table, whom we don't yet know. Either the name section should *follow* where they are all introduced in his bio, or it should be a footnote to the appropriate bio area. Wjhonson (talk) 19:59, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I have now fixed this in the article, so you know who some of these people are when you reach that point.--Gloriamarie (talk) 22:50, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Edward III descendent

I've removed this irrelevancy. Show me *any* anciently descended family, still in power in England in the 18th century who did *not* descend from Edward 3. I don't think you can, so this quip doesn't add anything, and it makes it seem like this claim is unusual or notable, when it's not. Wjhonson (talk) 20:09, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Sergical monster, indeed!

I removed this:

"Another popular work of Byron, The Travels of the Sergical Monster, follows the sequel of his college Marry Shelley's Frankenstein ..."

Apart from being bad English, I believe it's hogwash though it might be inspired by some fictional treatment like Bride of Frankenstein.

Agger (talk) 18:10, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Bisexuality; shouldn't we include him within the category of LGBT writers?

Byron was clearly bisexual. At least for the first 36 years of his life. I say add him to the group. Thoughts? -FM (talk) 07:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)-FM

Absolutely. Also a section is needed on his homosexual exploits, with Nicolo Giraud and others. Haiduc (talk) 16:07, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Crompton reference

There seems to be some dispute as to whether Crompton is a reliable source. This is the reference in question:

Louis Crompton, "Don Leon, Byron, and Homosexual Law Reform" in Stuart Kellogg, Ed. Literary Visions of Homosexuality. p.53

Please use this section to reach consensus on the appropriateness of using this source to support the claim that Byron's relationship with John Edleston was a love affair. Thank you. Nandesuka (talk) 14:19, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Apart from the question of reliability of the source, there's also the problem that, once again, the cited source doesn't actually say what Haiduc is claiming. When I look at page 53 of "Literary Visions of Homosexuality", I don't see anything about Eldeston at all. He is discussed on page 58:

[Byron] hears John Edlestone singing in the choir, and friendship ripens into love....He begins to question traditional standards -- after all, he is not about to ruin a virgin, betray a husband, or beget a bastard...

(emphasis added). In short, I don't read Crompton as providing any support for the statement that Byron and Edleston had an active sexual relationship, which is what the term "love affair" implies. Crompton does claim that Byron had sexual longings, which is, given that we're talking about Byron, no great surprise. It may be that there are other sources that support this assertion, or that Crompton says it explicitly elsewhere in his work. But he doesn't say it where the citation claims. So completely apart from the question of whether Crompton is a reliable source, the citation is completely misleading, and can't be used until it is corrected. Nandesuka (talk) 14:30, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Saying that a source is unreliable does not equal "questions of unreliability." If someone wants to claim that a source is unreliable then they have top make a case for it. Until then the material stays, as it is not removed on anyone's say-so. At any rate, the book has been cited over fifty times in the literature, so the whole "challenge" seems little more than a sham, until it is substantiated.

Apart from this inappropriate interference, Nandesuka is once again indulging in ad hominem attacks against me. The page number was a typo, it should have been 54 instead of 53. My apologies. Next time perhaps you will not presume to make a federal case out of something like this. Haiduc (talk) 16:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for providing the correct citation. That's also a nice trick, by the way: "Nandesuka is unjustifiably attacking me for getting this citation wrong, when in fact, I only got the citation wrong." I should definitely work on that sense of shamelessness.

I see that Crompton does indeed briefly refer to this as a "love affair", although his longer description on page 58 doesn't quite support that characterization. Hoeper describes this as a mischaracterization promoted by Marchand:

Here Byron was proudly asserting a Platonic love that was fairly common and respected between schoolboys in his day. It is akin to the "bosom friendships" sought out by the young heroine in the "Anne of Green Gables" series for young girls. Marchand's readers are encouraged to presume that only some particularly base imbroglio in the relationship with Edleston could have led Byron to quit England--though early in A Portrait Marchand acknowledges that the relationship with Edleston always remained a pure and ideal "romantic attachment"....So far as I can determine Marchand's charges about the homosexual advances of Lord Grey and Edleston are the flimsiest of speculations--not demonstrably false, but not particularly likely to be true either.

Do we have any other sources describing the Edleston relationship beyond Crompton, Hoeper, and Marchand? Surveying the reliable sources will give us a better idea of how to properly describe this for our readers. Nandesuka (talk) 13:00, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Where did you get that text from? Talk about shamelessness. Haiduc (talk) 02:53, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I got it from here. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you haven't read it. It's only cited nine times in the article we're discussing. Nandesuka (talk) 03:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the citation. I see you have carte blanche to be rude. I guess it comes with administrator credentials. Haiduc (talk) 03:40, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

That's a bit of a non-sequitur, seeing as I haven't used any of my administrator credentials in my interactions with you. As far as that's concerned, I'm just another editor -- one who is shocked and a bit frustrated by your pattern of mis-citing and mischaracterizing sources. Nandesuka (talk) 05:03, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Your undocumented personal opinion about my edits does not excuse your aggressive and sarcastic tone. In the future please restrict yourself to discussing the topic at hand, and keep your suppositions about my activities to yourself. Haiduc (talk) 10:28, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Returning to the topic at hand, does anyone else have citatons to the effect that Byron and Edleston were lovers? Given that one of the major sources for this article refers to such theories as based on "the flimsiest of speculations," we want to make sure our sourcing for such a statement is solid. Nandesuka (talk) 12:11, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Crimes of Passive Voice

I have (temporarily) removed this sentence:

The extent of Byron's joy over the birth has been construed as evidence that he was Medora's father, a theory reinforced by the many passionate poems he wrote to Augusta.

I have no doubt that this sentence, as such, is true, but its crimes are many: if it "has been construed", who has it been construed by? The theory "is reinforced?" Rather, we should actively identify a reliable source that construes it thus, and who believes the theory is reinforced by the poems, and then we should include a citation to them. I don't have time to do this right now. Anyone else want to take a crack at this? Nandesuka (talk) 15:16, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Fiona MacCarthy examines the Medora question carefully, and concludes that Byron himself was never convinced that she was his child. (see 'Byron: Life and Legend' pp 214-215). Re Edelston, by the way, there are multiple references: I am surprised that this excellent source has not been relied on more in this article.Domnique 17:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Domniqencore (talk • contribs)

Sources

As I indicated above, Fiona MacCarthy’s excellent biography (2002) provides a valuable source on Byron and his complicated life. Looking at the record of sourcing of this WP article and related discussion, my impression is that that there has been perhaps too much reliance on press articles and reviews, and too little on direct examination of the scholarly references available. For those who have a genuine interest in the subject, acquisition of material through libraries or by direct purchase offers the best understanding of the controversies involved and the possibility of arriving at a balanced judgment.

MacCarthy is in an unrivalled position as a Byron biographer: this is made clear in the introduction to the book for which she had - for the first time - unrestricted access to primary sources at the John Murray publishing house near Piccadilly, London. She pays tribute to the last biography published by John Murray: Leslie Marchand’s pioneering 3-volume life published in 1957 (Professor Marchand greatly encouraged the author in the early stages of the book - he did not live to see its completion). Since then, a great deal of new material has emerged relating to his various female liaisons, and crucially the dramatic discovery in 1976 – in a vault in Barclay’s Bank – of a cache of manuscripts and letters from Byron’s friend, Scrope Davies, ‘altering former views of his male relationships’. MacCarthy’s treatment of the ‘balance’ between his male and female relationships is carefully considered, and I believe, reliable. Certainly his innate attraction to boys ‘explains many of the lingering puzzles of his history’, and the ‘concealment of his sexual predilections had its impact on the dazzling obfuscations of his writing’.

With this in mind, I have made one or two additions to the text of our article, which are at least relevant and of interest. Of course one has to avoid overstatement or – as has been hinted at in the inconclusive discussions to the article – giving undue weight to material reflecting one’s own personal views. Any comments or suggestions will be welcome. Dominique (talk) 21:20, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you've struck a very nice balance here, presenting MacCarthy's take on things without overstating (or understating) the case. Nice work. Nandesuka (talk) 21:26, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I will be doing a complete scholarly over view and source everything around the end of this month. I've been backlogged with my updating that I haven't been able to get to it, but I moved Byron ahead of Keats, so this will be the first Romantic on my list. I will be sure to respect your additions, but some of the others might be cleaned up. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:29, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I agree the article is uneven and will need further adjustments. For instance, the 'Medora' allusion cannot be left as it is, though a complete analysis would be out of place. The overview is important, and some consistency of style and standard of sourcing is desirable - if indeed that is possible in a multi-edited situation. I am no Byron specialist, but will be interested in further improvements, and may occasionally throw in (or out!) an odd sentence or two. Dominique (talk) 14:05, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Dominique, I am performing a major overhaul of the page right now. It is being worked somewhere else. However, I am respecting the MacCarthy lines (but throwing out some really bad references). The page will be restructured to be more appropriate to such a page as this, along with citations and dates. I'm telling you this now because I will need some of your help later. I should have something ready by monday. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:47, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I look forward to the overhaul, and will be interested to opine on any changes or re-sourcing. Dominique (talk) 13:43, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

How many books do you have? And what kind? We need to pool our resources. I have many books that focus on his life as a poet, one full biography (like a true biography), a biography that looks as his "uninhibited"ness, and one that looks at his relationship with his off spring. I need to get this up to FA quality so I can start a featured list ("featured articles" that resemble my user name). Not really. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 14:00, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I find your questions flattering, but as I said, I am no specialist. Before my acquisition of MacCarthy, I relied on compendia, library material (incl articles) and occasional curiosities e.g. Crompton's monothematic study, and my Oxford poetry collection. MacC is so comprehensive and her scholarly researches so vast, that her work can be seen as 'definitive', though she is very conscious of her debt to earlier biographers. I presume you have this book? Her sources (apart from Murray) are of course largely collections of Byron-related material: Aberdeen, Oxford, British Library, Athens,Cambridge etc The books she acknowledges particularly are: Marchand (& the editions of Byron's letters), Maurois, Origo, R Holmes's Shelley, Michael Foot's The Politics of Paradise, Crompton & Moore. My impression is that you are amply qualified to oversee the development of this article (certainly more than I), and I'm sure you'll agree that there is a limit to what can be achieved or presented in the context of a WP article, open as it is to all and sundry. The 'purpose' is the main criterion, which I see as being a ready source of general, but authentic information for public use and interest. So it really is a matter of covering the main life events and facets of personality (largely done) and of course his work, and keeping the wolves at bay! I shall be of course interested to know of any questions that arise, but suspect you already have the resources at your disposal. Dominique (talk) 21:39, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

John Murray the publisher vs. John Murray the publishing house

I just commented on the John Murray article but I see that it's barely touched at all which means it will prob be a long, longtime before someone gets to answer me. I'm posting here too since more people come here and since Murray was Byron's publisher and a big guy in his life. I don't know if that's okay but if not then go ahead and remove it. Here's what I'm copying from the John Murray:

I saw that the two have been mixed together here and I don't know how the best way is to fix it. The article talks about both. I've come across other articles that mentioned John Murray either as the publisher or the house and both link here. I've not touch any since this one needs to be fixed first. I don't know how many article link here so is it even possible to fix it? If so I think we should have two separate articles. One on the publisher and one on the publishing house.--Nocturnalsleeper (talk) 13:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)