Talk:Senkaku Islands

Minor change for legibility purposes

If no-one objects, I will clarify the 1st sentence of the 1sy paragraph under heading "Names" by rearranging the words to shorten the sentence. The intended change is as follows :

Original : "...first recorded name of the islands, Diaoyu, used in books such as..."

Clarified sentence : "...first recorded name of the islands was Diaoyu. It was used in books such as ..."

I will change it tomorrow if no objections Marcopolo112233 (talk) 08:40, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. I've made that change and a further one in the same section. John Smith's (talk) 09:35, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Naming section

Ok, Tenmei, I don't understand fully what you're trying to say. Can you please write out what Isaac Titsingh did with regard to the name of the Senkaku Islands and Europe? At the moment it suggests he brought a book or books back to Europe. There's no explanation of why the books were brought back, what they said, how they were distributed (if at all), etc.

Can you just start from scratch and write out here what he did and why it is important.

Similarly what's the story with Edward Belcher and what is "Pinnacle Island"?

I think the whole naming section is problematic and is a collection of random "facts". I'm not even sure that these facts are all correct. Can someone confirm, for example, where the potentially controversial statement The collective use of the name "Senkaku" to denote the entire group began with the advent of the controversy in the 1970s is supported? The link in the citation doesn't seem to direct me to anything useful. John Smith's (talk) 17:50, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

John Smith's -- Does the article need a timeline summary like this?

Timeline

• 1796 Isaac Titsingh returns to Europe, importing Japanese history books written and published in context of non-Eurocentric (Japanese) historiography. Among these books is Sangoku Tsūran Zusetsu (三国通覧図説, An Illustrated Description of Three Countries) by Hayashi Shihei (1738–93). The book includes the first published reference to islands in East China Sea which can be examined directly and studied by European scholars such as William Marsden in London and Jean-Pierre Abel-Rémusat in Paris.
• 1832 Julius Klaproth publishes posthumous translation of Sangoku Tsūran Zusetsu in French
• 1848 first published reference in book published in English

A 1785 map in Sangoku Tsūran Zusetsu (三国通覧図説) by Hayashi Shihei --- see digitized original, Waseda University [1] 三国通覧図説.

John Smith's -- Perhaps I can do no better than to respond seriatim to your questions:

A. "...what Isaac Titsingh did with regard to the name of the Senkaku Islands and Europe? At the moment it suggests he brought a book or books back to Europe."</ref>

Yes, one book mentioning the East China Sea islands — (a) text written by a non-European historian, and also (b) text discussed by Western scholars in European settings

B. There's no explanation of why the books were brought back, what they said, how they were distributed (if at all), etc.

Yes, no explanation or analysis is presented in this "Names" section. Rémusat added the original to the collection of the Bibliotheque Nationale; and the 1832 books was distributed by subscription. I don't construe this contextual information as relevant in the narrow context of this article.

C. "... what's the story with Edward Belcher and what is 'Pinnacle Island'?"

Yes, the facts set forth in the one-sentence paragraph are clear, accurate, and supported by citations from reliable sources (with embedded hyperlinks to make double-checking easy and straightforward).

• "The first reference to the islands in a book published in English was Edward Belcher's 1848 account of the voyages of HMS Sammarang<:ref>Suganuma, Unryu. (2001). Sovereign Rights and Territorial Space in Sino-Japanese Relations, pp. 87, 89-90, p. 87, at Google Books; excerpt at bottom of page, "The first book recording the name of the Diaoyu Islands in the English language was written by Sir Edward Belcher, the captain of the British battleships Samarang in 1843."</ref>
• "... which anchored off Pinnacle Island in 1845." <:ref>Belcher, Edward. (1848). Narrative of the Voyage of H.M.S. Samarang, Vols. I-II, pp. 316-318, 573., p. 316, at Google Books; excerpt at bottom of page, "Having embarked our instruments in the morning, and obtained another station on the Pinnacle Island, we rejoined the ship." Compare 1st sentence of our article, "The Senkaku Islands ... or the Pinnacle Islands, are a group of disputed uninhabited islands in the East China Sea."</ref> See also <:ref>Belcher, Vol. I, pp. 317-318., p. 317, at Google Books; and <:ref>Belcher, Vol. II, p. 573., p. 573, at Google Books.

D Can someone confirm, for example, where the potentially controversial statement The collective use of the name "Senkaku" to denote the entire group began with the advent of the controversy in the 1970s is supported?

Yes, see "advent" I don't understand this question. The direct relationship between the sentence in our article and the explicitly cited source could not be more on-point. This was supposed to become like the grain of sand around which a pearl is developed over time.

Strategy. A review of the edit history of Senkaku Islands will show that this section was not created by me. I discerned an unstated purpose in this section; and my guess was that it was initially intended to further a specific, non-neutral point of view. The additions I contributed were designed to begin a process of mitigating any perceived flaws and to establish a potentially useful model for assessing the academic credibility and consequences of assertions about these islands. As a closer examination reveals, there is no contemporary POV in the paragraphs which are deconstructed in A+B+C+D above. The way in which each element of each sentence is supported per WP:V becomes a kind of small step towards a generalized model of scholarly transparence. For example, in the above

• the context of the reliable source is expanded in order to assess the degree of weight which should be accorded in the context of a specific section of our article
• the specific sentences in the reliable source are made explicit on request, etc.

IMO, this section was already an essential element of this article before my participation began; and the significance of this section is underscored in the arguments which are to be found at Senkaku Islands dispute. --Tenmei (talk) 20:35, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Copied from Talk:Tenmei

Names in Early Historical Context of Senkaku Islands

I am unsure as to why you made this change where you deleted a mention of how the early Japanese text 順風相送 referred the island as "Diaoyu". While I suggested to keep the name usage as neutral as possible, I believe what the island was first called is quite relevant. If you feel the need to add in a Japanese-usage reference, feel free to dig up some legacy European-drawn Asian map that uses Senkaku Islands instead.

I am not going to revert your changes since I don't want to bother with page-long discussion, but this is something for you to think about. Bobthefish2 (talk) 02:01, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Bobthefish2-- This edit responded explicitly to the questions John Smith's asked above; and the context was informed by Cla68's addition of a "modern history" section heading here and here.

As originally conceived, the "Names" section appeared to be an element of Senkaku Islands dispute, but a slightly refocused text presents the same information as the historical background against which that contemporary dispute becomes a silhouetted issue. In other words, minor word changes are consistent with a non-controversial plan mirroring an etymological development section in the Oxford English Dictionary

• ¶1: Earliest reference to minor geographical features of the East China Sea, 1403–1534
• ¶2: Earliest reference in the West, 1796–1832
• ¶3: Earliest reference in any English-language source, 1848
• ¶4: Early references in British Admiralty sources, 1870-1880
• ¶5: Early references in Japanese sources, 1900-1950s
• ¶6: Earliest reference using collective proper noun, 1970s

Bobthefish2 -- Your question focuses our attention on a short paragraph without in-line citations or bibliographic reference source supports. As formerly drafted, the sole subject of this paragraph was the name "Diayou". As re-drafted, the subject is two Chinese books or the earliest recorded references to islands which are the subject of a dispute in the 21st century. You will have noticed that the somewhat unclear concluding sentence in this paragraph remains unedited for now.

• Former:
  

"The first recorded name of the islands was Diaoyu. It was used in books such as Voyage with a Tail Wind (simplified Chinese: 顺风相送; traditional Chinese: 順風相送; pinyin: Shǜnfēng Xiāngsòng) and Record of the Imperial Envoy's Visit to Ryūkyū (simplified Chinese: 使琉球录; traditional Chinese: 使琉球錄; pinyin: Shĭ Liúqiú Lù), dated 1403 and 1534 respectively.

• Re-drafted:
  

The earliest recorded mention of these islands is found in books such as Voyage with a Tail Wind (simplified Chinese: 顺风相送; traditional Chinese: 順風相送; pinyin: Shǜnfēng Xiāngsòng) (1403) and Record of the Imperial Envoy's Visit to Ryūkyū (simplified Chinese: 使琉球录; traditional Chinese: 使琉球錄; pinyin: Shĭ Liúqiú Lù) (1534).

Now that the point is emphasized with a question, I can see how the 21st century argument requires that the former opening sentence is restored; and this has been done here as supplementary amplification of the paragraph subject sentence.

In addition, please note that "citation needed templates" were added to all sentences in this section which do not have verifying support.

Bobthefish2 -- This explanation demonstrates that my edit was mindful of the issues highlighted by discussion threads on this page and at Talk:Senkaku Islands dispute. I would hope this summary is construed to be consistent with WP:Burden.--Tenmei (talk) 16:35, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Tenmei, this doesn't have to be so complicated if we use a bit of WP:COMMONSENSE. It is good that you made changes in response to my criticism, but I much prefer the paragraph as I last saw it weeks ago. As I recall, it was much simpler and the reference to the name "Diaoyu" was directly accompanied with the a reliable source (順風相送). The sentence you added in just now had a "citation needed" bracket appended to it giving an impression that there's no supporting evidence.

If I want to manipulate the presentation of information to create an illusion of unreliability over certain elements, then I would do just that. But again, I am not going to modify any of your changes. While I have a degree of trust in your respect for WP:NPOV, potential new comers may see things differentlyBobthefish2 (talk) 01:54, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Bobthefish2 -- Non-response is a constructive reply to needlessly provocative phrases here. Acknowledgement is married with "No".

• No. Neither 順風相送 nor 順風相送 ≠ WP:Cite
• No. There is no justification for these words: "... manipulate the presentation of information ...."
• No. Nothing justifies this phrase: "... illusion of unreliability ...."

As you know, a request for citation support is modest and reasonable, e.g.,

1. ¶1 — The earliest recorded mention of these islands is found in books such as Voyage with a Tail Wind (simplified Chinese: 顺风相送; traditional Chinese: 順風相送; pinyin: Shǜnfēng Xiāngsòng) (1403) and Record of the Imperial Envoy's Visit to Ryūkyū (simplified Chinese: 使琉球录; traditional Chinese: 使琉球錄; pinyin: Shĭ Liúqiú Lù) (1534).
2. ¶1 — The first recorded name of the islands was Diaoyu.
3. ¶1 — Adopted by the Chinese Imperial Map of the Ming Dynasty, both the Chinese name for the island group (Diaoyu) and the Japanese name for the main island (Uotsuri) both literally mean "angling".
4. ¶5 — In 1900, when Tsune Kuroiwa, a teacher at the Okinawa Prefecture Normal School, visited the islands, he adopted the name Senkaku Retto (simplified Chinese: 尖阁列岛; traditional Chinese: 尖閣列島; pinyin: Jiāngéliè Dăo), literally Pinnacle Islands, to refer the whole island group, based on the British name.
5. ¶5 — The first official document recording the name Senkaku Retto was by the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Nihon Gaiko Monjo (日本外交文書, Documents on Japanese Foreign Relations) in the 1950s.
6. ¶5 — In Japanese, Sentō Shosho (尖頭諸嶼) and Senkaku Shosho (尖閣諸嶼) were translations used for these "Pinnacle Islands" by various Japanese sources.
7. ¶5 — Subsequently, the entire island group came to be called Senkaku Rettō, which later evolved into Senkaku Shotō.

There is nothing unconventional nor out-of-the-ordinary in adding as a tag for sentences without inline citation support per WP:V + WP:Cite. --Tenmei (talk) 03:01, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, can you condense what you just wrote into 2 sentences? Bobthefish2 (talk) 04:15, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Bobthefish2 -- Non-response is the only constructive reply to the disingenuous question here. Acknowledgement is married with "No". --Tenmei (talk) 09:15, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

This doesn't help me adequately understand what you are attempting to express. Bobthefish2 (talk) 10:37, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Almanacs

As I had mentioned before, I said that when I had the chance, I would check a university library for more background on the naming issue. I was able to check a number of almanacs, but, unfortunately, did not have time to check encyclopedias (research I was doing for real life writing needs took precedence, sorry). I checked every international geographical Atlas published after 2000 that I could find in the main "map" section of the UC library I was at. Many of the atlases didn't list the islands at all (they are, after all, not really all that important to anyone other than the principals). The 5 atlases that included a name for these islands were:

Concise Atlas of the World, Dorling Kindersley, 5th edition, 2008 The Great World Atlas, Dorling Kindersley, 2nd Edition, 2002 Oxford Essential World Atlas', Oxford University Press, 5th edition 2008 Touring Club Italiano nuovissimo Atlanti Geogratico Mondiale', Touring Club Italiano, 2002 National Geographic Atlas of the World, 8th Edition, 2004

In all 5 maps, the only name that appeared was Senkaku-shoto. None listed an alternate name on the map itself. In Oxford, the name Diaoyu Island was listed in the index (it said Diaoyu Tai = Senkaku Shoto); none of the rest listed Diaoyutai, Diaoyu, Tiaoyu, or any other variant that I could find in their indexes. To clarify, the Touring Club Italiano gave the name as "Isole Senkaku", as the atlas was in Italian.

For additional info, both the 2 DK atlases wrote on the map "Senkaku-shoto", and underneath it said "claimed by China, Japan, and Taiwan"; the Touring Italiano said "Isole Senkaku", and underneath said "GIAPPONE rivend. da Corea del Sud e Giappone" (this makes me doubt this atlas a little, since I think that says that it's disputed with South Korea, which is of course not at all true), and National Geogrpahic said "Senkaku Shoto" and afterward said "Administered by Japan/Claimed by China and Taiwan").

Again, apologies that I couldn't check the encyclopedias; I really wish I had access to an English university library all of the time. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:17, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

This is a map I found about 3 months ago in the American Geographic Society Library. It dates back to 1818 and recorded the islands as "Tiaoyuou". There are other links to other maps I saved somewhere, but I haven't had the time to look through them yet. Bobthefish2 (talk) 18:26, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Dual-name usage in text, captions and table

This section re-introduces an archived thread; and it re-engages issues which have been held in abeyance for two months.

November 2010

We've discussed this previously. As far as I could see there were no legitimate reasons given why in the previous discussion in the geography section there had to be a duplication of the Chinese name of the islands in the table header and in the image captions. We don't keep referring to the "Senkaku/Diaoyu/Diaoyutai islands" throughout the article, so why must this one section have the Chinese name - and just the Chinese name, not the Taiwanese or "English" (i.e. Pinnacle) names - in the header? There is no reason as far as I can see .... John Smith's (talk) 23:40, 10 November 2010

January 2011

The neutral analysis and editing strategy of John Smith's in this diff were valid in November. The passing of time has in no way diminished the correctness of the modest edits which were proposed. No good reason for further procrastination been put forward. I endorse these modest changes, especially in light of the newly added "Geography" section here at Senkaku Islands dispute. --Tenmei (talk) 17:19, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

There was a huge thread about this issue with numerous debates. If you are to say John Smith's was right and those who disagreed with him were wrong, then you may want to point out the specific reasons.

Also, the content in the geography section is not new at all. Bobthefish2 (talk) 18:37, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Bobthefish2 -- Responding to your two points,

A> No, this thread does not present a "right/wrong" dichotomy.

The misconception and duality implied by the word "right" is both inaccurate and unhelpful. Issues of "right" or "not right" can only be resolved in real world venues outside the scope of our Wikipedia project. The explicit term used was "valid" meaning "verifiable". In other words, John Smith's words are valid and congruent with WP:Five Pillars. Subsequent talk page threads clarified the validity of John Smith's's analysis here and here. In the alternative, no subsequent investigation has served to invalidate the conclusory statements John Smith's put forward in October 2010 and in November 2010. We have invested more than enough time and discussion in going around the mulberry bush.

Going around the mulberry bush tends to happen when people decide to ignore issues addressed in the past or try to unnecessarily complicate matters. What I've said earlier was clear and perfectly reasonable. I don't see any cause to start a fuss about it. Bobthefish2 (talk) 23:56, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

B> No, the quibble here about the content of Talk:Senkaku Islands dispute#Geography is a red herring.

As you know, (a) the "Geography" section (with its table) was added here in January 2001; the edit was proposed here in November 2010.

This thread highlights a number of related edits which have been on hold. In the intervening period, neither extra research nor an RfC has produced persuasive reasons for further delay.

The modest changes John Smith's proposed in October may now proceed without diminishing any open-ended prospective edits at Senkaku Islands dispute and on-going discussions at Talk:Senkaku Islands dispute. --Tenmei (talk) 20:41, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

This "new" Geography section that was "added" was almost directly copied and pasted from another page and that section existed for a very long time there. Bobthefish2 (talk) 23:56, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian's comment

I very strongly disagree with half of the changes you just made. I think that removing the second name from the image caption was correct, in that I don't believe that we should use both names in every time we have the opportunity. However, moving the one mention of the Chinese names to the references section is extremely POV and a misunderstanding of consensus. I guess I have to go back and look again, but I am pretty sure that John Smith never advocated hiding the one and only mention of the Chinese names for individual items down in the references section. I would prefer that User:Tenmei self-revert or fix that part themselves, as I don't want this article getting locked for edit warring, but I will make the change myself as I believe this change is against consensus. I believe the best solution for the table would be 2 columns, labeled "Japanese name" and "Chinese name". Actually, are there separate Taiwanese names? If so, three columns. But putting them down in the references section is POV--just like we have the main name (Diaoyu) listed right in the lead, so should the Chinese names be in the main table. Qwyrxian (talk) 21:44, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Without actively tracking Tenmei's activities, I've already noticed a few other things he did or proposed to do:

1. Have Japanese names go first in the table of names

2. Remove reference to an early Japanese book dated in the 19th century that cited the usage of the name "Diaoyu"

3. Remove the reference of the name Diaoyu being used in early history

I don't know, but that sounds like what a POV-pusher would do... Oh yeah.. he did give me a reply when I asked him about some of these issues and his style of writing makes it very hard for others to interpret what his reasonings. Maybe you can give that a try. Bobthefish2 (talk) 23:56, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian -- The strike-out is explained below. --Tenmei (talk) 16:46, 17 January 2011 (UTC) Please look again at the article. Japanese and Chinese names are fully explained in the introductory paragraph; and the context of dispute is clarified and expanded in the other paragraphs of the introduction and the infobox. This represents a full and sufficient identification of an unresolved naming dispute. In addition, the Chinese alternative naming is specifically explained by explicit inline notes in the context of the table. No inappropriate bias or confusion is contrived or implied.

Please explain again in different words. I don't understand the following sentences:

Qwyrxian's sentences

• A. "However, moving the one mention of the Chinese names to the references section is extremely POV and a misunderstanding of consensus."

Responsive analysis/rebuttal

FACT: no, the asserted Chinese names are not solely in the references section. They are explicitly presented in the 1st paragraph and in the infobox.

---

• B. "I guess I have to go back and look again, but I am pretty sure that John Smith never advocated hiding the one and only mention of the Chinese names for individual items down in the references section."

FACT: No, the asserted Chinese names are not hidden. A neutral view of this subject presumes — as does John Smith's — that the Chinese alternative names will continue to be explained in the intro and in the infobox, as can be seen in the current version of the article.

---

• C. "But putting them down in the references section is POV ...."

FACT: No, the asserted Chinese names are not "down in the references section," not "POV" ( ? )

---

• D. "... just like we have the main name (Diaoyu) listed right in the lead, so should the Chinese names be in the main table."

No, the rationale which informs what needs to appear in the lead paragraph or in the infobox is not equivalent to the factors which need to be taken into consideration in an analysis of the table.

---

Three lines indicate the express POV of Japan, the PRC and the ROC ... and "feasible region" is the intersection of disparate data sets which are undisputed in our article about the Senkaku Islands?

Qwyrxian -- In order to discuss this subject calmly and rationally, we need to be factually on the same page. In addition to the introduction, is it your view that usefulness of the infobox is arguably enhanced by the following?

1. Uotsuri Jima (a/k/a Diaoyu Dao)?
2. Taisho Jima (a/k/a Chiwei Yu)?
3. Kuba Jima (a/k/a Huangwei Yu)?
4. Kita Kojima (a/k/a Bei Xiaodao)?
5. Minami Kojima (a/k/a Nan Xiaodao)?
6. Okino Kitaiwa (a/k/a Da Bei Xiaodao)?
7. Okino Minami-iwa (a/k/a Da Nan Xiaodao)?
8. Tobise (a/k/a Yan Jiaoyan or Fei Jiaoyan)?

If so, it is not timely for me to ask you to explain the reasoning which informs that kind of personal opinion?

The research which underlies the unchanged name of this article also supports the edits you appear to misconstrue as controversial. --Tenmei (talk) 22:42, 16 January 2011

Bobthefish2 -- In order to address each of the unresolved issues you identify here, you will need to be more explicit. In other words, you will need to sharpen the focus of your critical analysis.

A. As a first step in a constructive direction, please expand:

• "1. Have Japanese names go first in the table of names"
• "2. Remove reference to an early Japanese book dated in the 19th century that cited the usage of the name Diaoyu"
• "3. Remove the reference of the name Diaoyu being used in early history'

B. As another first step, please expand:

"... he did give me a reply when I asked him about some of these issues ..."

C. As step towards improved communication, please expand:

"... his style of writing makes it very hard for others to interpret what his reasonings."

Bobthefish2 -- It is not unimportant that you mention previous responses to questions. It is significant that you do acknowledge these diffs as examples of "reply" and engagement with issues you identify as noteworthy.

Bobthefish2 -- Again, I can't emphasize this enough: be explicit. --Tenmei (talk) 16:46, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

In response to your post on my talk page: I've actually underestimated the extent of your changes before reading your post. I find it puzzling that you'd have to persist in removing Chinese references and names in the page. The table was there for a long time with both Chinese and Japanese names there and very few had any issue with it. Now, you decided to copy the table over to the dispute page and removed all the Chinese names in the original. First, that's a very bad case of POV-pushing (and it's obvious who's doing it) and second, it makes a mess out of the dispute page. After all, the Senkaku Islands dispute was created to house issues dealing with sovereignty debates that actually are taking place in the world. The dispute with names and naming technically does not exist in the real world because it ties with the sovereignty issue. However, since we disagree on how to best write these articles, the naming issue is important to us. Let's hope now you'd understand why the table should not belong in the dispute page at all. Bobthefish2 (talk) 00:17, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

      .

Bobthefish2 -- Again, I need to ask for a few more words from you. In order to address each of the unresolved issues you identify here, please be more explicit.

Several inter-related issues are entangled in your prose.

Please pull apart the threads you would like me to address; and, if you can, please rank order them so that I will be able to assess the relative importance you attach to each. --Tenmei (talk) 16:46, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

First, to clarify, I'm talking about the names for the individual islands, not the whole chain. All of the names for the chain are listed in the lead, as they should be. The Chinese names for the individual islands are not in the lead; neither are they in the infobox. I see the Chinese names for the individual islands in two places. One is in the middle of "Early historical context"; there placement here and within that paragraph imply that these are strictly historical names. The other place I see them are in notes 21, 23, 25, 27, 29, 33, and 35. I believe that the chart at Senkaku Islands dispute#Geography should be copied here (although, to match the title of this article, I believe the Japanese column should come first).

I just looked back at John Smith's comment, and, more importantly, at the page as it existed after JS edited it. At that point, JS did have the Chinese names of the individual islands in the infobox. For me, that is an acceptable solution. In other words, I'm not saying we need to list both every time. But I do believe the Chinese names for the individual islands need to be listed either in the infobox or in the table in the Geography section. Are you perhaps somehow thinking that they are still in the infobox right now?

Finally, could you please stop making graphs that you believe represent our dispute or conversation or argument? You need to understand that they are only helpful for you or someone else with experience in symbolic argument, which is not the majority of WP users (including myself). Qwyrxian (talk) 23:44, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I'd add that his style of expression is almost never used in science except in a few very specialized fields. Good communication styles involve concision and a scarcity of unnecessary abstractions. Bobthefish2 (talk) 00:02, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

      .

Bobthefish2 -- Again you mention "style of expression" and "communication styles". This is a recurring tactic and a red herring. You have made this into a "hobby horse".

There is a constructive response to this kind of rhetorical gambit. I invite you to work together to address any perceived problems. In other words, I encourage you to put your money where your mouth is. Alternately, I ask you to put up or shut up. Are you familiar with these English idiomatic expressions?

I remain open to suggestions about how to "tweak" the collaborative editing process. This kind of problem is to be expected in controversial subjects like our articles about the Senkaku Islands. --Tenmei (talk) 16:46, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

2nd attempt to respond to Qwyrxian's comment

The serial interspersed diffs in just this one section have created an impossible-to-unravel Gordian knot -- not of my making, and not within my abilities to parse without help. --Tenmei (talk) 06:02, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I'll simplify. Right now the Chinese names for the individual islands are not in the lead, and they are not in the infobox. Some of them are in the historical section, and they're all in the references/notes. Why are the not in either the infobox or in the chart in the Geography section? Qwyrxian (talk) 06:06, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

To clarify: I think you're making is mistake, because you say above that the Chinese names are in the infobox, when they are not (only the names for the whole chain, not the names for the individual islands). Qwyrxian (talk) 06:07, 17 January 2011 (UTC)