Talk:Goth subculture

Nihilism and Nuclear Annihilation

I was not a goth in the early 80's but I was close friends with many of them in the SF bay area where the goth movement was vital and well established. I remember the ready threat of being vaporized any minute was a constant threat on everyone's mind as a result of Reagan and the cold war. This was the time when people started talking about nuclear winter, comic books about the horrors of Hiroshoma came out, and President Reagan was cracking jokes about starting a nuclear holocaust. There were a lot of suburban white kids that didn't think we would make it to adulthood alive. Everybody was saying it only takes 30 minutes for the missiles to reach us and there is one for every city in America. Then there was AIDS, when sex, the source of life suddenly became deadly. We didn't know how far or fast it would spread and if we would all wind up in quarantine camps just because we loved someone. I bring this up because I feel that was one of the major psychological roots of the Goth movement. Embrace what you fear most. Vampires don't die of radiation poisoning or STD's. The dead have nothing to fear and answer to no one. I think it is important to include this idea in the article but I don't know how to approach it responsibly. Do you guys agree that it should be included in some form and if so how?Michalchik (talk) 06:55, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Basically the concern is whether a source can be found that supports this kind of idea (the roots of goth in the paranoia of the age of nuclear weapons and AIDS). Everything on Wikipedia should have a supporting reference. See WP:NOR. Aryder779 (talk) 16:47, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

In my experiences, I've never heard of any of this being associated with goth. But I find it very interestng. Perhaps if you could find a few links that support this idea, it could be posted. All of the "Dark Alterative" scenes embrace the socially rejected, of course within reason. Fear is a pretty big factor in that, but as to say that it's a root of goth is going a bit out of thatr way, I think. Maybe phrasing it in the way of rejected ideas are embraced by many goths would be a better way to put it.HearMeWhisper (talk) 22:33, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

This Article Should Not Be A POV Essay

I just reverted the entire page because somebody rewrote MOST of the article according to their point of view. Please do not do this. If you have a personal opinion on what goth is, or isn't, and want it read by people you ought to create your own personal webpage because this isn't the place for it. Thanks.Crescentia (talk) 19:10, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Only thing I'll add to that is that "your own personal webpage" does not mean "your Wikipedia user page". Wikipedia is not a free web host. --Stormie (talk) 22:44, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for adding that. :-)Crescentia (talk) 23:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Jhonen Vasquez Criticism

I don't really follow the section about Jhonen Vasquez's Criticism. When it says, "At the same time, his work is also self-mocking, particularly when it touches on issues such as murder and depression..."

Does this mean that Jhonen Vasquez is a depressed murderer? Also, why does it matter if his work is self-mocking? This article is about goth subculture, not about the tendencies of Jhonen Vasquez's writing. I'm just saying, this particular sentence doesn't seem very clear to me. Deepfryer99 (talk) 16:41, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

It's an apologist sentiment and should be deleted from the article.Theplanetsaturn (talk) 18:36, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree. This section is much too long. Aryder779 (talk) 17:03, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

CyberGoth

There appears to be an edit war going on over the inclusion of a section of 'CyberGoths.' I personally think that anyone with knowledge of the history and origins of Goth and Industrial should know they are completely unrelated, but some people seem very insistent on this being added. Also, the tone of the content itself sounds like something that would be on a site trying to sell a line of Cybergoth fashion items, it just doesn't sound right. Hell, one of the sources is a site selling Cybergoth fashion items, the only other source is a forum. Zazaban (talk) 06:56, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

IMO, CyberGOTH does not exist. I agree, there is a Cyberculture, born on the foundations of technoid music (such as Xotox, Shnarph!, Combichrist, Noisuf-X, VNV Nation and other bands). But this kind of music has nothing to do with Goth. The main music of the Gothic subculture is Gothic rock and related Post-punk/Darkwave genres.

Furthermore, the deleted picture gallery showed only a handfull of simple Goths:

• 
  Midnight Fallen
• 
  CyberGoth Mannequin
• 
  CyberGoth Boy
• 
  Wenchi & ViperJoe

- the first pic shows a fetish goth

- the second pic shows a variant of candygoth (?)

- the other two pics show a soft form of "batcave" (they look like fans of Cinema Strange ^^)

All these people have nothing to do with Cyber (see below).

Cyber fashion

Cyber people

A Cyber

A Cyberkid

--Ada Kataki (talk) 15:33, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem with covering cybergoth, but there were problems with the particular piece of text which was being added (e.g., it created the false impression that goth subculture had turned into cybergoth). At the same time, I disagree with the idea that it doesn't exist, or that they are entirely unrelated (two themes that seem to be commonly raised on this article) - the topic seems to be reasonably well covered at Cyber_(subculture)#Cybergoth, and I see no reason to dispute the material as long as it can be supported by references. Mdwh (talk) 17:15, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

That same text was being used in the article to linked to, I removed it. Zazaban (talk) 19:24, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree - I was thinking more of the fashion section, and didn't notice that bit. I agree with it's removal, as it seemed rather too much pov/unsourced/original research. Mdwh (talk) 00:03, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

":IMO, CyberGOTH does not exist."

Wow, what an ignorant thing to say. Sigh. 58.170.133.245 (talk) 12:19, 30 September 2008 (UTC) Harlequin

Not really an "ignorant thing", but a logical thing. All these kids have nothing to do with Goth music, Goth aesthetics, Goth literature etc. They're simply techno kids. --Ada Kataki (talk) 19:16, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

No, its a very ignorant thing to say. No "commas" about it. Its just ignorant and pointless. Because techno music isnt "Goth" (see, thats the correct use) then they are just "techno kids"? I see you have a hard time grasping what logic is. Especially as the Gothic subculture is not comprised solely, or always, of music, or a specific type of music. Nor is the Cyber culture always, solely or of a specific type of music. So Cyber Goths can quite easily exist, to say otherwise when you cannot grasp the concept outside of your personal subjective views on the subject is...as ive said...ignorance. 124.182.52.116 (talk) 12:25, 1 October 2008 (UTC) Harlequin

Have you read the article? Goth is a subculture based around music, that music being a kind of punk, not a kind of dance music. Although calling them 'techno kids' is a bit rude, calling them goths is not accurate. Zazaban (talk) 18:09, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Not really rude. In Europe, they listen to Techno music. But they think that this Techno music is Industrial music. Furthermore they think that Industrial music is a kind of Goth music. That's all. And that's the reason why CyberGOTH doesn't really exist. It is only a "pseudo subculture", developed on the foundations of mistakes, misunderstandings and a musical genre term swindle. --Ada Kataki (talk) 18:46, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I was talking less about the 'techno' part and more about the 'kid' part. You're totally right though. Zazaban (talk) 18:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sources, remember. Cyber_(subculture)#Cybergoth seems to have sources. I've never heard of the term applying to techno music anyway (typically it refers to genres like EBM and futurepop, in my experience), and the idea of people listening to techno whilst claiming it's industrial, and in turn claiming industrial is "goth music", sounds like a straw man. The only thing that seems unclear is how popular the term "cybergoth" is (how many reliable sources, etc), or whether the scene/fashion/bands are mainly known by other terms (bands and nightclubs tend to be labelled with genres like EBM and futurepop, as I say, and festivals like Infest are simply labelled "alternative electronic"). I'm not sure what is meant by claiming "cybergoth" doesn't exist - that the term doesn't exist, or that the scene doesn't exist, or that it has no relation to goth subculture? Or something else? If you mean that it does exist after all, but in your opinion it was founded on "mistakes" and "misunderstandings", then that sounds entirely like POV. (I'm also curious that the term "cybergoth" is disputed, but terms like "fetish goth" and "candygoth" are accepted, when these are surely far vaguer and less used terms...) Mdwh (talk) 21:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Cybergoth doesn't exist in that there is no 'goth' that is 'cyber.' I however, do support cybergoth having its own article, and it did, but was deleted for some reason. I am for restoring it. Zazaban (talk) 22:08, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

IMO the article Cyber (subculture) is sufficient. The contents of the CyberGOTH article were almost identical to the contents of the Cyber (subculture) article. And POV or NPOV - there is no plausible explanation of why a CyberGOTH subculture exists. Why are they called "Goths"? There is absolutely no relation between the subcultures. --Ada Kataki (talk) 23:18, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to refrain from getting into a WhatIsGoth debate, let alone one as vague as whether it can be "cyber". The only thing of concern here is what sources there are for different scenes (as defined by music/fashion/clubs/festivals etc), and whether the term "cybergoth" is used to describe any such scene. Whether we personally think the term makes sense or not is irrelevant here. I'm not sure it makes sense to ask "why" a subculture exists, whether it's cybergoth, or anything other. The most obvious connection to goth subculture is the fashion, as explained at Cyber (subculture)#Fashion_2. Another obvious connection would be the number of "goth" clubs that play alternative electronic music (e.g., Slimelight). Mdwh (talk) 10:17, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm also curious that the term "cybergoth" is disputed, but terms like "fetish goth" and "candygoth" are accepted

Do you know the history of Goth? Fetish clothes were a part of the Goth subculture since the early days of the Batcave club. Siouxsie Sioux, Ollie Wisdom (Specimen), Gitane Demone (Christian Death) etc. were dressed up in fetish clothes. Furthermore i don't really use the term CandyGoths. I read the term in a book of Voltaire (?). I don't think, it's an established term, but there is no other term for this kind of styling. --Ada Kataki (talk) 23:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

No reliable sources to offer, but I can tell you that "Cybergoth" was an oft-used term when I was living in London in 2000-2001. Here is a Google Usenet search from uk.people.gothic at that time. There were people who were into aspects of the goth subculture and also aspects of other subcultures, cyber, industrial, rave, etc. Their taste in fashion combined elements of goth fashion with futuristic elements, their taste in music took in both goth music and various types of electronic music. Some of them were former trad goths who had become less interested in the trad scene. --Stormie (talk) 04:29, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Sure, but my point is that "cybergoth" is surely at least as common as term like "candygoth" - according to Goth slang, cybergoth is referenced in at least one book, for example. Mdwh (talk) 10:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I just added this to the cybergoth section of the Cyber (subculture) page:

Valerie Steele quotes Julia Borden, who defines cybergoth as combining elements of industrial aesthetics with a style associated with "Gravers" (Gothic ravers). Gravers hybridized "the British Raver look and the NYC ClubKid look with a 'freak show' spin." Borden indicates that initially the hair extensions and bright fishnets did not mesh well with goth fashion, but that by 2002 "the rave elements of dress were replaced by Industrial-influenced accessories, such as goggles, reflective clothing, and mostly black clothing." Steele summarizes:

“ Today cyber goths tend to wear primarily black clothing with hints of neon colors, as well as clothing made of reflective materials and PVC, and huge platform boots. Their hair extensions or falls often incorporate a bright color and multiple piercings are typical. Goggles are often worn. Some cyber goths also wear gas masks or (in what appears to be a kind of medical fetish) shiny PVC doctors' masks. ”

If Steele and Borden consider it to be part of the Goth subculture, it can be discussed here. Aryder779 (talk) 23:07, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

On second thought, Steele and Borden make it clear that the aesthetic emerged from a combination of ravers, club kids, and rivetheads, all of which are pretty different from goth as such. For reasons of brevity and consistency, this page should really probably focus on classic Goths. There's no way that we can talk about all subcultures that are somewhat dark or morbid here. Aryder779 (talk) 03:55, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

In my experience, CyberGoth doesn't refer to Goth anymore than Steampunk refers to Punk Rock. Goths usually dress in that "elegant/turn-of-the century-retro/macabre" style and CyberGoths are more into the futuristic aesthetic. Musically speaking, 00ntz (EBM/IDM/Future Pop, etc.) and Goth (Goth, Darkwave, Ethereal, etc.) are two very different scenes. Very Old School Goth (talk) 01:44, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Metal

It seems a bit lame to simply dismiss the whole of goth metal as being a misconception by outsiders - confusing metal with goth. When bands such as Cradle Of Filth are covering Sisters Of Mercy it seems that there is some cross over between Goth Rock and Metal that is worthy of a bit more than the dismissive suggestion in the main article. Granted that metal is a very wide term that includes things that are definitely not goth - that borrow heavily from Californian, Biker, and Rocker fashion - but there is an increasing number of bands and fans that are borrowing and adopting goth fashion and blending metal with goth rock influences. In the 1980s you could count the number of 'true' metal bands that used keyboards on one or two hands but goth metal borrows heavily from the keyboard styles of goth rock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.225.181 (talk) 17:30, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Social class: White Collar / Middle Class?

It has always seemed to me that goth has been a white-collar/middle-class subculture. Is this just me, or has anyone else noticed? If it's a reasonably widespread view, even if a minority, then I'll spend some time digging for references. It always seemed that, in the 80's and 90's when I was part of "the scene" in the UK, the goths and indie-kids were always white-collar/middle-class, and the metallers and clubbers were always poor/lower-class. Whether this is a function of money (goth clothes cost more) or social viewpoint (goths as "soft" or intellectual) would be interesting to pin down. A good starting point might be this Guardian article. Andrew Oakley (talk) 13:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it quite works that way though, it's just how you viewed the social groups, though it does seem that the goth sub-culture is mainly made up of middle-class (the ones who can usually afford to but everything, and so stand out a bit more), there are many working class (and dole-scum) goths in the world! And I have personally known many middle-class 'metallers'. The Guardian news paper isn't really a good place to find out about anything to do with the Goth Sub-culture, besides for a good laugh!  Doktor  Wilhelm  13:49, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Dr Dunja Brill Would agree with evilandi, A piece in the telagraph, agin from around mar 2006 when her study was published [1]

She published th study as a book [2] 78.146.236.135 (talk) 19:37, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

"Criticism"

The article current contains this as the only item in the "criticism" section: "In contrast to postcolonialist literary and cultural critics who see goth as eurocentric and laden with racist connotations, film historian David J. Skal argues that horror cinema has always served as a socially acceptable outlet for subversive social criticism, and thus neither horror imagery nor (by extension) the Goth subculture adhere to the description suggested by these critics."
The trouble is that the article doesn't cite any of these postcolonial literary critics, and this sentence addresses horror cinema. It then attempts to discuss the Goth subculture "by extension" from horror imagery. Which is an enormous stretch. I'm going to delete this, and the "criticism" section as a whole. Aryder779 (talk) 15:05, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the removal. Mdwh (talk) 00:21, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Love Mercer's "no true Scotsman" part. If something is clearly a fallacy is it considered a good source simply because of who writes it? 75.191.151.75 (talk) 22:29, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Controversy section

Is it just me, or is the controversy section much, much too long? I mean, it really belabors the point that a few people with distant and tenuous connections to goth have committed crimes and been associated with the subculture by the press. I understand the need to locate some of this information here, but I really feel it's much too detailed. I might try to clean it up in the near future. Aryder779 (talk) 21:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

It's needed. The average person's image of what 'goth' refers to is so skewed that we need to explain it in detail. Zazaban (talk) 21:52, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Of note?

This was posted in the Goths article. I thought it might be relevant here although it's unsourced. "Some people misuse 'Goths' and call them 'Emo.' 'Emo' is short for "emotional" and is a new teen trend similar to 'Goths.' Don't worry be happy. ChildofMidnight (talk) 08:25, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

No, because goth and emo are not even remotely related. Zazaban (talk) 16:32, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, there are actually some connections between emo and goth, but both are so broadly defined in popular culture that it's difficult to address on this page. Early emo (Rites of Sping, etc.) has only a thematic similarity to Gothic rock (emphasis on personal drama and references to European modernism) and some slight musical similarities (common debts to post-punk). First wave screamo groups, like Antioch Arrow, Heroin, and Swing Kids, actually do have a pretty strong debt to early Goth bands (the references are on that page). More recent groups like Thursday also borrow from Joy Division and other early goth groups.

Sources are not clear enough on this overlap to include much of a reference here, and I wouldn't advise any mention of emo on this page. The early screamo groups are still pretty underground and marginal, so discussing them here would probably violate WP:UNDUE. Aryder779 (talk) 22:32, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Considering their influence, probably not. Zazaban (talk) 01:42, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Vampyric Goth Subculture

London is seeing a rise in the number of people and groups defining themselves as "Vampire Groups". At present I know of at least three that have regular monthly meetings.

• London Vampire Meetup Group (LVMG)
• Vampyre Connexion
• The London Vampyre Group (LVG)

The scene is portrayed as romatic, and are starting to attract non-goths to the scene. Many members wear professionally made fangs and dress more theatrical than other goth events. Red wine tends to be the drink of choice and music played at events often includes Baroque and Classical. More recently Steam Punk styles have started to be incorporated into the ideal as the new subculture develops. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.56.70.124 (talk) 16:30, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like tit could work as a separate article. But go ahead. Zazaban (talk) 21:18, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Points of Contact section

By the mid-1990s, styles of music that were heard in venues that goths attended ranged from gothic rock, death rock, industrial music, EBM, ambient, experimental, synthpop, shoegazing, punk rock, 1970s glam rock, indie rock, to 1980s dance music. This variety was a result of the eclectic tastes of the members of the subculture.

Not a phenomenon of the 1990s. In fact, there were points of contact between (Post-)industrial and Goth since the early 1980s, since the beginning of the Goth movement. Besides Gothic rock, Goths also preferred Post-industrial music such as Einstürzende Neubauten, Cabaret Voltaire and Skinny Puppy. Bands such as Test Dept. and Foetus played in the Batcave club in London. Cleopatra Records in the US released Goth AND Electro-Industrial releases. It was not a pure Goth label. There're also points of contact between Goth and Psychobilly. The early 1990s-Propaganda Magazine from New York dealt with themes such as Neofolk, Gothic Rock, Death Rock and Dark Wave.

The German Goth article contains an interesting section about the musical and subcultural "relationships" between the Goth scene and punk, industrial, psychobilly and other movements. --Ada Kataki (talk) 03:47, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

self-harm study

This study on goth's self-harming was removed because "it was discussed previously & a few months later a study was published completely contradicting the resaults":

• Robert Young, Helen Sweeting, Patrick West (2006-05-06). "Prevalence of deliberate self harm and attempted suicide within contemporary Goth youth subculture: longitudinal cohort study". British Medical Journal (332): 1058–1061. doi:10.1136/bmj.38790.495544.7C.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
• report at New Scientist magazine

However I could only find this thread: Talk:Goth/Archive_2#Recent_University_of_Glasgow_study. It doesn't mention a second study, it just cites the comment on a livejournal blog to disprove a BMJ study. I think that this is insufficient, I don't think that Livejournal commenters are trained to spot stadistical fallacies. Can someone find a link to the second study, or a better source?

The Glasgow report was later reported also by the American Academy of Pediatrics [3].

On BMJ a month later two authors complained on a letter about the size of the sample[4], and a post-graduate student another letter complaining about the sources used on the study [5]. The authors replied later on another letter [6]. That means that the study was criticized, not that it was disproved, I would like to see a link to the study that contradicted it. Letters are not usually considered reliable sources, but I think I'll add them to the article to point out the study's flaws (letters on BMJ are certainly more reliable that Livejournal comments).

There was later on 2008 study from the Journal of School Health. It says "[goths] have a higher prevalence of depression, self-harm, suicide, and violence than non-Goth teens". Unfortunately, it's closed content so I can't read it and see if they made investigation of their own or if they are blindly quoting the Glasgow study :( --Enric Naval (talk) 14:19, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Even without the second study, this first study only included 25 goths, which does not seem notable. I think we need better studies supporting such a link, in order to be worth mentioning. Mdwh (talk) 23:08, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I understand what you mean, but it meets notability well enough: it was published on the BMJ and reported on the New Scientist, BBC[7] and ABCNews[8], and picked up by some random reliable source like the Canada's Hospital for Sick Children website[9], it's also cited by a few papers[10]. None of those sources indicate any problem with the study's reliability.

Btw, it would be more like a total of 100 goths and ex-goths. from the NS article: "Just 2% [25 young people] of the adolescents in the study identified with goth culture, although 8% [100 young people] said they had identified with it at some point in their lives (...) The authors recognize that it's based on small numbers and needs replication." I have added the NS and BBC articles and expanded a bit. (btw, online copy of the full paper[11]). --Enric Naval (talk) 22:50, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

By notable, I mean compared with goth subculture as a whole - if we included every mention of something related to goth that had ever made a mainstream media article, then this article would be vastly huge. I wonder if this would be more appropriate to place under the self injury article? - However, we shouldn't just mention goth, but we would list all the factors that studies had claimed to show some correlation (e.g., homosexuality and bisexuality, as listed in the paper).

As for including 100 goths - the study showed that for those who identified as goths, 8 out of 15 (53%) had self-harmed. However, for the 78 who identified as goths just or quite a bit, then only 14 of them ( 18%) had self-harmed. So in other words, if we claim all of these count as goths, then any correlation is far lower. Mdwh (talk) 17:01, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Right, we shouldn't put everything that get got a news article, but this was published on the BMJ and there are no studies contradicting it (that we know of!). (You can bring it to WP:RS/N to get a outside opinion on this).

The study concludes that identification with goth subculture was the best predictor, we shouldn't be listing all factors when the study only gives preeminence to one of them. See "Goth identification remained the only subculture which significantly predicted self harm after adjusting for other subcultures".

You can also read "Of 25 participants with a high identification (at some point in their lifetime) with the Goth subculture, 12 had harmed themselves" (emphasis added), there were 10 people on the study which had high identification with goth subculture but had stopped having it before reaching 19 years old. --Enric Naval (talk) 21:27, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

merge proposal from Goth girl

This new stub seems not to merit a separate article but could form a section of this main article. PamD (talk) 07:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Delete it. There are different kinds of Goth styles with undercut, mohawk and teased and pleated hair. The Goth girl article only describes a Morticia lookalike. And the Nemi comic charakter is definitely a Metal girl. --Chontamenti (talk) 10:17, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Kill it. Very Old School Goth (talk) 11:58, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and Eden Prosper and Razor Candi are lust. POV. I know. But seriously. Cheers!Very Old School Goth (talk) 12:00, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Goth girl? Swift deletion. Please.76.181.245.123 (talk) 03:51, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Different types of goth?

There are sub-types of 'goth', ya know? I mean, this article is fine for your run-of-the-mill everyday goth, but there are other, less well known, types. I, for example, am a Perkygoff. This website should be of assistance: www.blackwaterfall.com . Honestly, Cybergoth has it's own article, why shouldn't the others? Or at least a section...~Sana (talk) 19:34, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Find enough referenced information - more than say Voltaire's book or a single website. If enough WP:RS references can be found to cite descriptions, history, and musical influences, then they can likely be developed as subheadings. Though I suspect they might fit better under Gothic fashion.--SiIIyLiIIyPiIIy (talk) 21:18, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Not nessecarily, Some of the types are purely fashion based, but others (Yes, like perkygoff...-_-') are more of an attitude thing. Like, an outlook on life. We even have a manifesto!! http://www.obscure.org/~vlad/gothic/perky.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanatherandom (talk • contribs) 15:53, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

In a very, very quick survey of Google Scholar using "Perky Goth" [12], I pulled up the following references: Little Book of Goths by Dan Vice[13], The Goth Bible by Nancy Kilpatrick[14], Goth Craft by Raven Digitalis[15], and Goth: Undead Subculture by Lauren M. E. Goodlad and Michael Bibby[16]. There was also a thesis disertation From mopey, to perky, to poseur: context and its affect on meaning in gothic subculture by Ed Purchla, but can't locate anyplace to access it. It looks like there might be enough WP:RS material out there to start developing an entry. Some one with access to a few of those books might consider devloping an article on the topic.--SiIIyLiIIyPiIIy (talk) 18:48, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Perky and Mopey aren't really "sub-types". It's only a human disposition. It has nothing to do with fashion, music, ideology or aesthetics. Sub-types of the Goth subculture are Batcaver, Romantic/Victorian Goths, Bonanzas (Nephilim & Sisters Goths), etc. --Chontamenti (talk) 12:49, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

"Bonanzas"? Never heard that one before. What's the etymology of that? --Stormie (talk) 10:21, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

In the United Kingdom, the band members of Fields of the Nephilim called themselves "Bonanzas". Shortly after, their spaghetti-western-dressed fans also had taken up the term. But here in Germany, we didn't use any term for this kind of Goths. They looked funny and their preferred bands (besides the Fields) were The Sisters of Mercy with Wayne Hussey, The Cult and New Model Army. You also can find the term in Dave Thompson's book "The Dark Reign of Gothic Rock". --Chontamenti (talk) 16:11, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Goth Religion

I would like to add something about an association with Wicca, under the religion heading. Yes, I get it.. Goth support diversity and it's not specifically associated with a particular, formal religion. That said, in America there is an undeniably close association with Wicca and the article should reflect that.

A. "That said, in America there is an undeniably close association with Wicca"... no, there isn't. There is a close association with hippies and wicca and most Goths I know (myself included) despise hippies. B. "Goth(s) support diversity"... since when? Most of us are actually pretty judgmental and the majority of us who are judgmental are fiercely proud of the fact that we are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.181.250.188 (talk) 12:09, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

---

"Gothic is a fairly open-minded culture when it comes to exploring anything that is "not of the norm." Religion is no exception. Many Goths are likely to explore alternative religions and forms of spirituality rather than following a dominant organized religion. Some find paganism and Wicca to be appealing."

http://www.gothicsubculture.com/religion.php

"Many Goths are atheists and a sizable minority are new age spiritualists, Wiccans and members of other alternative religious groups. There are Christian Goths. Basically Goth is not about religion, but with the imagery of religion. May goths wear crosses or ankhs, and there are many religious references in goth songs, but it is not a religious movement."

http://www.vamp.org/Gothic/Text/gothic-faq.html#13 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.95.240.204 (talk) 05:25, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

The first one does not seem to be a reliable source - what references or research are the claims based on? Also you didn't quote the first paragraph which gives important context, stating how there isn't much connection between religion and goth:

"There is no set belief system for Goths, although many seem to be agnostic. A person's religion and his or her gothic involvement have little to no affect on each other. Christians, atheists, Jews, agnostics, Satanists, pagans, and so forth are all represented within Goth. While there is an incredibly wide variety of religious beliefs and views, most Goths do not follow any sort of organized religion. Their personal spiritual beliefs are of a private nature."

The second source surely seems to say the opposite to what you propose to add - i.e., it states there isn't any specific connection to Wicca or anything else. Where is your source for "undeniably close association"? Note that we already cover religion in the article, under Ideology, where we say:

"Similarly, there is no common religious tie that binds together the goth movement, though spiritual, supernatural and religious imagery has played a part in gothic fashion, song lyrics and visual art. In particular, aesthetic elements from Catholicism often appear in goth culture. Reasons for donning such imagery range from expression of religious affiliation to satire or simply decorative effect.[8]" Mdwh (talk) 10:03, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I see no connection between goth and Wicca, other than the fact many Wiccans call themselves goth, dress dark, etc. . .but don't, in actuality, dress goth or listen to actual goth bands. Further, Wicca is becoming so mainstream that a large number -- perhaps even the majority -- of Wiccans I have met dress completely "normally" and don't consciously identify with any sort of subculture. You might as well say goth has an association with Thelema because a large number of Thelemites are goths, or Christianity because a lot of goths wear crosses. 74.46.62.235 (talk) 09:13, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Cross-Continential Goth culture.

I think we've hit a major snag in this whole article. There is a large difference between American Goth culture and Goth culture around the rest of the world, especially Britain. Trying to form an article about a subculture that exists around the entire world isn't going to work if it's all written by American's who draw on their Goth beliefs and values without consideration of what Goth means somewhere else in the world. I understand that Wikipedia is American itself, but please stop making very sweeping statements that you assume apply to everyone else; that is imposing emics. 78.149.12.247 (talk) 00:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was NO CONSENSUS to move page, per discussion below. -GTBacchus^(talk) 21:07, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

---

Goth subculture → Gothic subculture — To match related articles such as Gothic rock and Gothic fashion, among many others. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:51, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

• Text (e.g. lead sentence) will need adjustment, post-move. Move is blocked by an edited redirect. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:51, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
• To my ear, this has the idiom right, and the others wrong; if both are used, we could do worse than disambiguate the modern subculture from the kinsmen of Roderic and Theodoric anyway. Oppose therefore, pending overwhelming evidence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:47, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose - I think PMAnderson's right on about this. Ed Fitzgerald _{t / c} 10:20, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose - As far as I'm aware, most goths refer to it as the the 'goth' lifestyle/subculture/whatever, not 'gothic'.~Sana (talk) 18:42, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose - Both common usage and the ability to disambiguate support maintaining the current name. --Bejnar (talk) 22:25, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose - to be honest, I don't think either term is used significantly more than the other (and a Google test agrees with that: [17][18]), so I don't see any good reason to change the status quo on such a heavily linked-to article. --Stormie (talk) 01:03, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Vandalism

Vandalism on this page! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.98.0.60 (talk) 09:37, 2 August 2009 (UTC) Acknowledged and reverted. 202.63.50.108 (talk) 13:50, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Reverts

I'm confused. How were the last few changes to this page vandalism? It looked better to me/made more sense. Somebody tinkle in someone's Weetabix? RJS59 (talk) 00:13, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

It wasn't. Chalk up to idiocy on the part of the reverters. IP's reverts looked better. Tathbreaker (talk) 00:51, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

The IP's edits removed referenced information, and were made without edit summaries. After the first revert, he became increasingly combative, finally insulting editors and asking to be blocked. At any point, he could have made a case for his edits, but chose not to. How were his edits, and his behavior, helpful? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 03:42, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Nitpicky. All you have to do is go to history and click (diff). The way it's written now it looks like a child wrote it. Who makes a case for tidying up an article? "Goth fashion is stereotyped as", honesty. Does that look better to you? Really? Granted anon was rude and used dirty words. So block them and keep the edit.RJS59 (talk) 04:35, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

No, not "nitpicky." His edits removed cited information without any reason or explanation, which is vandalism. I notice you made no response to that. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:17, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

The "Emo" misconception?

Shouldn't there be at the very least a small notation stating that the "Emo" scene is not a part of the Gothic culture? Far too many people have this misconception, and it causes a lot of confusion and anger over the subject both online and offline. While many "Emo" kids claim to be Goth, I have never once heard a member of the Goth culture consider themselves "Emo" or even verify any link between the two. "Emo" started as a sub-culture from the modern-day Punk scene, and it's really obvious, visually, yet people constantly mash "Emo" and Goth into the same stereotypical group. Most shrug it off, but for others it's a constant problem. "Emo" ideals are far from those of the Gothic culture, another misconception people make. The stereotype of Goth being based on misery and suicide is one that has followed the culture for far too long, and these "Emos" trying to push themselves in is only furthering the misunderstanding. If I had any resources or articles I could cite, I would. But sadly I'm lacking any kind of written proof, and though it is wikipedia, a mash of so-so information with no bases to prove anything wouldn't do any good, and would most likely be deleted. 98.21.93.56 (talk) 19:23, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

People also think that metal is in some way related to Goth, which it isn't. So you'd have to include that as well. Or the misconceptions that Marilyn Manson, EBM or Industrial is related to Goth or that Goth is ever played in Goth clubs. The laundry list of genres that are not truly Goth or a part of the Goth scene is so lengthy that maybe the article should just be about what Goth is and not what it isn't. Do we really need sections on Vampires, nonconformity, Hot Topic, Transmuters, goggles, Tripp pants, HIM, The 69 Eyes and all the various things that are in no way Gothic that wannabes incessantly rave about in the hopes that they'll somehow be considered Goth for knowing about? PS - "emo" is an adjective, not a noun. ;-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.180.58.8 (talk) 22:23, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

"emo"

Whoever added "emo" under a separate "see also" section. 1. There is already a "see also" section. 2. "Emo" is completely unrelated to Goth. Please do not add to the article. Merci.71.79.249.245 (talk) 17:04, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, this was recently added, without comment, by an established user who should have known better. His reasoning is a mystery to me. Thanks for removing it. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 03:41, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

What?

"By the mid-1990s, styles of music that were heard in venues that goths attended ranged from gothic rock, death rock, industrial music, Psychobilly, EBM, ambient, experimental, synthpop, shoegazing, punk rock, to 1970s glam rock." I'm sorry, but as a patron of various Goth venues in the 90's I have to take issue with this. Industrial, EBM, Psychobilly, Synthpop and so called "shoegaze" were not welcome in the Goth scene. Clubs that played EBM, Industrial and Synthpop no longer had Goth patrons. Psychobilly had nothing to do with anything Goth and shoegazers simply got their asses kicked. Did whoever wrote this actually go out in the "mid-1990s"? 71.79.249.245 (talk) 12:58, 8 October 2010 (UTC)