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→Put back section Folklore and Rumors: US Stratcom does release decay data
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:::::NASA veteran Oberg said it could be the most toxic crashing satellite ever because the propellant maybe frozen and therefore survive the heat of reentry. Roscosmos said it is highly unlikely that the propellant will survive reentry. We know Roscosmos has credibility problems. There is a 25% chance it will reenter over land. This is a threat. Meridian 5 was destined only for earth orbit. Phobos grunt was destined to leave earth orbit, fly to mars, orbit Phobos, land on Phobos, blast off Phobos, leave mars orbit and fly to Earth. How can Phobos grunt have about the same amount of propellant as Meridian 5? The complete outcome of Meridian 5 is unknown as it crashed in Siberia, Russia. The Russian reports are not creditable. The same for the Proton rockets as it was destined for earth orbit and crashed in the Kazakhstan, which was part of the Soviet Union. The notability guidelines do not apply to article content. The notability guidelines are whether a topic can have its own article. The RIA Novosti news story has been discredited and is therefore a source for “mistakes” made by the Russia press about Phobos grunt. --[[User:Mschribr|Mschribr]] ([[User talk:Mschribr|talk]]) 19:43, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
:::::NASA veteran Oberg said it could be the most toxic crashing satellite ever because the propellant maybe frozen and therefore survive the heat of reentry. Roscosmos said it is highly unlikely that the propellant will survive reentry. We know Roscosmos has credibility problems. There is a 25% chance it will reenter over land. This is a threat. Meridian 5 was destined only for earth orbit. Phobos grunt was destined to leave earth orbit, fly to mars, orbit Phobos, land on Phobos, blast off Phobos, leave mars orbit and fly to Earth. How can Phobos grunt have about the same amount of propellant as Meridian 5? The complete outcome of Meridian 5 is unknown as it crashed in Siberia, Russia. The Russian reports are not creditable. The same for the Proton rockets as it was destined for earth orbit and crashed in the Kazakhstan, which was part of the Soviet Union. The notability guidelines do not apply to article content. The notability guidelines are whether a topic can have its own article. The RIA Novosti news story has been discredited and is therefore a source for “mistakes” made by the Russia press about Phobos grunt. --[[User:Mschribr|Mschribr]] ([[User talk:Mschribr|talk]]) 19:43, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
::::::What do we do now? --[[User:Mschribr|Mschribr]] ([[User talk:Mschribr|talk]]) 03:38, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
::::::What do we do now? --[[User:Mschribr|Mschribr]] ([[User talk:Mschribr|talk]]) 03:38, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Another article from [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45877691/ns/technology_and_science-space/#.Twk5KNT9MYs MSNBC], unrelated to the RIA Novosti story: "''Satellite-watcher Ted Molczan said his analysis of decay data from the U.S. Strategic Command suggested that the fall would come early Jan. 16, with an estimated uncertainty of plus or minus two days.''". So the U.S. Strategic Command does release data, but we don't know if they make official predictions. In my opinion, the RIA Novosti story is incomplete (it is missing the uncertainty part), inaccurate (it attributes the prediction to US Stratcom, although only the decay data may originate from them), but not completely false. Therefore we should not use the story in the article (because we have more credible information now), but we should not draw any conclusions about deliberate misinformation, either. [[User:Rsocol|Razvan Socol]] ([[User talk:Rsocol|talk]]) 07:10, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Revision as of 07:10, 8 January 2012

Pronunciation

I'm afraid some English speaking people pronounce "grunt" as the synonym of "infantryman". In Russian, it is pronounced as "groont". Same thing as Sputnik which in Russian is "spootnik" not "spatnik" like the Americans say. Can someone please please write an IPA pronunciation guide at the top of the article? Zeev.tarantov (talk) 06:59, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fobos/Phobos?

Which is correct? Phobos is the name of the moon, and the name of the mission is Phobos-Grunt everywhere else...--Lord Aro (talk) 15:26, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You might be right. Solar System Research Volume 34 / 2000 - Volume 45 / 2011 does tot use the F-word but goes with the Ph-word --Stone (talk) 15:47, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Everywhere else" are clearly using a simple romanisation of the Russian name, hence "grunt" not ground, they just have incorrectly used the English name of the moon instead of romanising the Russian version too. Wikipedia uses the romanisation of Russian guideline, which after learning Russian myself seems standard practise to me. I can honestly say I have yet to see Ф romanised as ph, always f. I think Wikipedia's more technically correct version is better. ChiZeroOne (talk) 15:57, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia uses WP:COMMONNAME; if English sources use "ph" more then "f" in connection with this mission the article should be renamed. Whatever and whoever Russians call this mission... it does not matter... — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 17:37, 17 February 2011

Have a look at the foreign names section of WP:COMMONNAME, particularly those in different scripts. This is a clear case of an incorrect transliteration, and we are not doomed to repeat it. ChiZeroOne (talk) 18:06, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad you support a the name change of the wikipedia article Kiev into Kyiv also... I'm getting a bit fed up that the explaining of how WP:COMMONNAME should be interpreted is always with a nationalistic POV in mind... — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 18:30, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
WP:COMMONNAME does not apply. Per that guideline, "ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources". That is clearly the case with the "ph" version, where half of the name has been translated and the other half has not. --GW… 18:51, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I can live with that GW. That sound non-WP:ILIKEIT — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 18:59, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So, Fobos or Phobos?--Lord Aro (talk) 13:32, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fobos-Grunt is correct. As detailed above, there is no way to get "Phobos-Grunt" from "Фобос-Грунт" with a consistent conversion process. You'd either get "Fobos-Grunt" (which is correct), or "Phobos-Ground". --GW… 14:03, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Very well. I'll change it wherever else i find the mission name spelt 'ph' (unless you can set a bot up to do it, i don't know much about bots...)--Lord Aro (talk) 07:18, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I just referenced a set of mission slides done by the FEDERAL SPACE AGENCY OF RUSSIAN FEDERATION - LAVOCHKIN ASSOCIATION, and they use the title "PHOBOS-GRUNT" PROJECT . It is located at ms2010.cosmos.ru/pres/4/martynov.ppt. --RSStockdale (talk) 13:55, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that both are being used, but "Fobos" is the correct spelling. There are documents on the same site as the one you've presented which use the "F" spelling. At the end of the day, "Ph" just seems to be a translation error. --GW… 14:38, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Russian spacecraft are normally transliterated, like "Soyuz-Fregat" - not Soyuz-Frigate like the monstrosity Phobos-Grunt. --Regards, Necessary Evil (talk) 19:21, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Both "phobos" and "fobos" are equally correct transliterations of "Фобос"; they are pronounced identically. The former has the advantage of being more familiar to English readers, and (in case you care about facts) more widely used in English media in reference to this topic. - ~----
No, "Fobos" is correct English transliteration of "Фобос" (see Romanization of Russian#Transliteration table), while "Phobos" is English translation of "Фобос". Similar is "Phobos-Soil" English translation, and "Fobos-Grunt" is English transliteration. --Regards, Necessary Evil (talk) 00:14, 24 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just to be a devil's advocate. The craft is named after the moon of Mars, which, in turn, is named after the Greek god Phobos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_%28mythology%29. Russian and Greek happen to use the same letter, but if a university professor of mine is right, the pronunciation is different, with the ancient green pronunciation being like a p and an h concatenated together. In that case, Phobos would be the correct transliteration, not Fobos. I don't think any modern person, with the possible exception of geeks like my professor, actually pronounce Phobos that way, but I throw this out there anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Victor Engel (talk • contribs) 21:12, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I understand his position, but it does not conform with modern transliteration of the Cyrillic letter Ф, which corresponds to the Latin letter "F". --W. D. Graham (previously GW) 22:25, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Right, but should the transliteration be from Cyrillic or from Greek? Victor Engel (talk) 05:16, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The spacecraft's name is Фобос-Грунт, not Φόβος-Εδάφους. You wouldn't be able to transliterate "Грунт" from Greek. --W. D. Graham (previously GW) 08:12, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps this article needs to be renamed, too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tschaikovsky Victor Engel (talk) 16:49, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

MetNet

The article on MetNet states that the plan to send the MetNet landers along with this mission have been dropped. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.222.204.14 (talk) 05:15, 24 August 2011 (UTC) Sorry, forgot the sig.[reply]

Launch delayed to 2014 ?

Now fueled for Nov 9 launch. [1]. - Rod57 (talk) 11:39, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
They should have delayed the launch. The head of the Russian Federal Space Agency, Vladimir Popovkin, said 90% of Phobos Grunt is new and untested. For such a complex mission they should have thoroughly tested everything to prevent a failure. A failure of a minor part could terminate the mission. I think it is irresponsible to send untested equipment on such a complex mission. They are asking for trouble. --Mschribr (talk) 16:07, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Images out of date

The image used top right in the article does not match the more detailed Russian video on YouTube or the photos here. Should we change the image or comment on the video ?

Yes, the old ESA image doesn't seem to be accurate anymore. I have uploaded a fair use photograph and switched to it instead. We really should try to get a free-use permission from Roscosmos, then we could use more than just one photo. Nanobear (talk) 16:51, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism section

"However, as stated by Fobos-Grunt Chief Designer Maxim Martynov, the estimates by mission specialists yield much lower probability of reaching the surface of Mars than what is required for Category III of target body/mission type assigned to Fobos-Grunt and defined by COSPAR Planetary protection policy (according to Article IX of the Outer Space Treaty).[37][38]"

I don't find that paragraph very clear on a casual reading. Anyone able to unpack it? +|||||||||||||||||||||||||+ (talk) 22:37, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I rephrased it. I hope it is clearer now.Bomazi (talk) 13:26, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

References

  • Zelenyi, L. M.; Zakharov, A. V. (2010). "Phobos-Grunt project: Devices for scientific studies". Solar System Research. 44 (5): 359. doi:10.1134/S0038094610050011.
  • Rodionov, D. S.; Klingelhoefer, G.; Evlanov, E. N.; Blumers, M.; Bernhardt, B.; Gironés, J.; Maul, J.; Fleischer, I.; Prilutskii, O. F. (2010). "The miniaturized Möessbauer spectrometer MIMOS II for the Phobos-Grunt mission". Solar System Research. 44 (5): 362. doi:10.1134/S0038094610050023.
  • Moskaleva, L. P.; Mityugov, A. G.; Dunchenko, A. G.; Smirnov, G. G. (2010). "Gamma-Spectrometer for the Phobos-Grunt mission". Solar System Research. 44 (5): 371. doi:10.1134/S0038094610050035.
  • Managadze, G. G.; Wurz, P.; Sagdeev, R. Z.; Chumikov, A. E.; Tuley, M.; Yakovleva, M.; Managadze, N. G.; Bondarenko, A. L. (2010). "Study of the main geochemical characteristics of Phobos' regolith using laser time-of-flight mass spectrometry". Solar System Research. 44 (5): 376. doi:10.1134/S0038094610050047.
  • Managadze, G. G.; Sagdeev, R. Z.; Chumikov, A. E.; Cherepin, V. T.; Saralidze, G. Z. (2010). "Determination of the surface-averaged composition of the regolith of phobos by measurements of the secondary ion flux during the Phobos-Grunt mission in the MANAGA-F experiment". Solar System Research. 44 (5): 385. doi:10.1134/S0038094610050059.
  • Marov, M. Ya.; Kolesnichenko, A. V.; Manuilov, K. K.; Osipov, V. P. (2010). "The thermophob experiment: Direct investigations of the thermophysical properties of the regolith of phobos". Solar System Research. 44 (5): 393. doi:10.1134/S0038094610050060.
  • Korablev, O. I.; Bondarenko, A. V.; Dokuchaev, I. V.; Ivanov, A. Yu.; Kozlov, O. E.; Kottsov, V. A.; Kiselev, A. B.; Bibring, J. -P.; Fourmond, J. -J. (2010). "Microscope spectrometer for the Phobos-Grunt mission". Solar System Research. 44 (5): 403. doi:10.1134/S0038094610050072.
  • Khavroshkin, O. B.; Tsyplakov, V. V. (2010). "Seismology of Phobos: From geophysics to cosmogony". Solar System Research. 44 (5): 409. doi:10.1134/S0038094610050084.
  • Manukin, A. B.; Gorshkov, A. N.; Shlyk, A. F. (2010). "GRAS-F seismogravimeter for measuring gravity-inertial fields on the surface of Phobos". Solar System Research. 44 (5): 417. doi:10.1134/S0038094610050096.
  • Smirnov, V. M.; Marchuk, V. N.; Yushkova, O. V.; Abramov, V. V.; Bazhanov, A. S.; Lifantsev, B. S. (2010). "Long-wave planetary radar: Radar sounding of the soil of Phobos in the Phobos-Grunt project". Solar System Research. 44 (5): 423. doi:10.1134/S0038094610050102.
  • Andreev, O. N.; Antonenko, S. A.; Gotlib, V. M.; Zakharkin, G. V.; Linkin, V. M.; Lipatov, A. N.; Makarov, V. S.; Khairulin, B. K.; Khlyustova, L. I. (2010). "Libration celestial mechanics experiment". Solar System Research. 44 (5): 438. doi:10.1134/S0038094610050114.
  • Avanesov, G. A.; Gordeev, R. V.; Grishin, V. A.; Zhukov, B. S.; Zhukov, S. B.; Kolomeets, E. V.; Krasnopevtseva, E. B.; Kudelin, M. I.; Krupin, A. A. (2010). "TV system for navigation and guidance". Solar System Research. 44 (5): 444. doi:10.1134/S0038094610050126.
  • Kozlov, O. E.; Aleksashkin, S. N.; Ivanov, A. V.; Kozlova, T. O.; Sutugin, S. E. (2010). "Manipulator system of the sampling complex of the Phobos-Grunt spacecraft". Solar System Research. 44 (5): 451. doi:10.1134/S0038094610050138.
  • Vaisberg, O. L.; Koinash, G. V.; Moiseev, P. P.; Avanov, L. A.; Smirnov, V. N.; Letunovskii, V. V.; Myagkikh, V. D.; Ton’Shev, A. K.; Leibov, A. V. (2010). "DI-aries panoramic energy-mass spectrometer of ions for the Phobos-Grunt project". Solar System Research. 44 (5): 456. doi:10.1134/S003809461005014X.
  • Avanesov, G. A.; Belov, V. Yu.; Drozdova, T. Yu.; Katasonov, I. Yu.; Kudelin, M. I.; Murav’Ev, V. M.; Forsh, A. A. (2010). "System for scientific payload information support for the Phobos-Grunt project". Solar System Research. 44 (5): 468. doi:10.1134/S0038094610050151.
  • Marov, M. Ya. (2010). "Phobos-Soil space project: A new stage of the Russian planetary program". Solar System Research. 44: 1. doi:10.1134/S0038094610010016.
  • Zelenyi, L. M.; Zakharov, A. V.; Polischuk, G. M.; Martynov, M. B. (2010). "Project of the mission to Phobos". Solar System Research. 44: 15. doi:10.1134/S003809461001003X.
  • Akim, E. L.; Zaslavsky, G. S.; Morskoy, I. M.; Ruzsky, E. G.; Stepaniants, V. A.; Tuchin, A. G. (2010). "Primeval substance delivery from Phobos to the Earth—the Phobos-Soil project: Ballistics, navigation, and flight control". Solar System Research. 44: 26. doi:10.1134/S0038094610010041.
  • Basilevsky, A. T.; Shingareva, T. V. (2010). "The selection and characterization of the Phobos-Soil landing sites". Solar System Research. 44: 38. doi:10.1134/S0038094610010053.

--Stone (talk) 19:15, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Budget comparison

Regarding this edit by an anonymous IP editor: the budget comparison (US$163 million for Fobos-Grunt, $8.5 billion for NASA's planned Mars sample return mission) is made directly in the source,[2] therefore I think it's notable and relevant. Even if the Mars sample return mission is more difficult, it still shows how much more expensive the American missions are, and this is exactly the point the source wants to make. Nanobear (talk) 22:11, 8 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this is relevant and I'm neutral on the question of returning that to the article, but 1) Mars sample return must be way more difficult considering the gravitation scale 2) In PPP terms, Russian budget in fact is likely to be 1.5 times higher 3) Space launching in Russia is generally cheaper than in the U.S. I believe if we retain the comparison, we should add at least the note #1. GreyHood Talk 23:03, 8 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Phobos-Regolith

It seems to me that regolith, though an uncommon word, is the most accurate English translation of the word грунт in the name of the mission. The word грунт is a technical geological term that refers to any multicomponent systems such as soil, sand, rocks, etc. on the surface of the Earth or any other planet. It is not exactly "soil" or "ground". --Itinerant1 (talk) 23:24, 8 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia says that regolith is the proper general term for the matter that covers surfaces of the Moon and Mars (Lunar soil, Lunar surface#Regolith), (Martian soil), though the word "soil" is applied somewhat imprecisely to its fine fraction. --Itinerant1 (talk) 23:32, 8 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What do reliable sources say? --GW… 01:45, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Status

The article is not at all clear about the status of the probe. Is it still stranded in Earth orbit or did it manage to leave for Mars ? Bomazi (talk) 05:10, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Launch Vehicle

According to the photographs taken before launch the Zenit is a Zenit 2FG. 212.114.159.142 (talk) 13:41, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • That is a non-standard designation refering to the specific modifications made for this launch only (i.e. Zenit-2 Fobos-Grunt). It is a Zenit-2SB41, which is basically a Zenit-2M with a different fairing and PAF. --GW… 16:35, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bad Phrasing

The second to last para contains the following non sequitur:

"with ignoring unmanned character of vehicle."Zedshort (talk) 14:01, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

BREAKING NEWS!!!!--Fobos-Grunt Fails to leave orbit--stranded in orbit around earth!!!

AMERICAN 1 ENGINEER (talk) 02:34, 10 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We know. Calm down. Article has already been updated. People are working to save the mission, and there's still a good chance it will work. Nanobear (talk) 02:39, 10 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There's a Russian claim that says HAARP caused the failure of the probe due to its excessively intense radio emissions. (Scientific American;Alaska Dispatch;) -- 76.65.128.198 (talk) 12:09, 16 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Consideration of vehicle survival

The Russian Space Federation should consider dumping attitude-adjustment hydrazine from the payload to buy more time, as well as activating the momentum wheels. Deploying the solar arrays was a bold move due to the solar-cycle and its effect on the payload's 2-card-element-set B-Star component. -- Mike Cronis (Satellite engineer) 13 Nov 2011

Have they considered inverting the ground-system's myplexes on the cryptos? I had that problem with a DSP launch about 5 years ago. -- Mike C. 16 Nov 2011

I wonder if they can communicate with the chinese probe? and if there's a link between the chinese probe and the russian one that could be used... 70.24.248.23 (talk) 13:31, 18 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if they've considered timing the command transmisions from Perth to the rate of tumble? It's unlikely any onboard omni-directional antenna is going to receive it, unless Perth can increase their HPA output to maximum once a main-beam is established. (Mike Cronis 10 Dec 2011)

Post-launch section graphic is bizarre

The graphic in the post-launch section shows the orbital tracks as viewed from below the south pole of Earth. This is a very rare way of showing things. This viewpoint can be inferred from the direction of the orbits. Fobos-Grunt was placed in a Prograde orbit around Earth (like all other satellites) to take advantage of Earth's rotational velocity at launch. This means the direction arrows you see on the diagram are in the same direction as the rotation of the Earth. This means we are viewing Earth from below. I don't have graphical editing capability, but I would suggest someone alter the image to be a mirror of what it currently is (without mirroring the text, of course). This would show the orbits as seen from above the north pole; the usual way orbital tracks are shown. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sephalon1 (talk • contribs) 07:44, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Not failed yet"

It is failed. It cannot reach Mars or Phobos anymore even if it is rescued due to the unfavorable planetary configuration from now on. Colchicum (talk) 23:18, 24 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is now a clearly sourced statement in the lede that claims the "window of opportunity" is now closed. I think that ought to do it. N2e (talk) 14:21, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

potential conflict of information ... clarification or correction needed

From Portal:Current events/2011 November 23 ...

From Fobos-Grunt#Contact ... "Roscosmos officials have said that a window of opportunity to salvage Fobos-Grunt would close in early December.[35]"

And from Fobos-Grunt#Post-launch ... "If the probe is not restarted by late November, it will miss the launch window and it will be no longer possible for it to reach the Martian system (the probe is not expected to survive until the next launch window, which will open in two years). Roscosmos spokesman admitted on November 22nd that chances of rescuing the mission were very slim.[32]"

99.56.121.98 (talk) 05:41, 25 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The window for the original planned mission to Phobos closed on the 21st of November (two days before the 23rd, the date of the first quote), principally because any later than that and there would be no time for the return capsule to be released at Phobos before its own window back to Earth closed. There's nothing stopping the return capsule being returned to Earth at a later opportunity and Fobos-Grunt can get to Phobos any time til early December. ChiZeroOne (talk) 20:10, 25 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Both Fobos-Grunt and Curiosity are going to Mars, and Curiosity's launch window will end 18 December 2011. Has Fobos-Grunt the same window or is Atlas V-541 a more powerful rocket? --Regards, Necessary Evil (talk) 16:26, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
They have different planned trajectories. MSL is on a direct trajectory which requires more delta V, but as you say provided for by the more powerful Atlas V-541. What matters with windows is not necessarily where you are going but how you want to get there. ChiZeroOne (talk) 21:25, 29 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the enlightenment ChiZeroOne. Nice to know. --Regards, Necessary Evil (talk) 01:14, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Reentry

So according to this Universe Today article, there can be some scientific returns, in validating the reentry capsule and the LIFE experiment, since it is probably to survive... 76.65.128.198 (talk) 12:07, 16 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Put back section Folklore and Rumors

Put back the section Folklore and Rumors by Wladik Derevianko. The section does not say the rumors are fact. However, it says that the Russian media reports rumors about Phobos Grunt as facts. This is appropriate for the Wikipedia article about Phobos Grunt. Are there any objections? --Mschribr (talk) 16:51, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a rumour mill. Also, to quote WP:NOT, "speculation and rumor, even from reliable sources, are not appropriate encyclopedic content". --W. D. Graham (previously GW) 17:39, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Again, we are not making rumors. We are reporting the Russian media is reporting rumors about Phobos grunt. Can you see the difference between making a rumor and saying someone is making a rumor? The article says the U.S. Strategic Command never made the announcement reported in the Russian media. --Mschribr (talk) 20:34, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, but surely that is trivial, we don't need a section for every single press release and media report on the spacecraft. --W. D. Graham (previously GW) 20:39, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Phobos grunt is a Russian space mission and Russian media is reporting rumors about their own space mission. That is important. If the Russian media cannot be trusted then that says something important about Russia. This also says something about the Russian space program and specifically Phobos grunt. That there is a lot of fabrication and deception in Russia. It explains why Phobos grunt and many Russian space missions failed. The Russian engineers lied when then said the Phobos grunt is ready for launch, thinking everybody is lying. --Mschribr (talk) 21:18, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It sounds to me like you are trying to push a point of view by including this otherwise non-notable report. --W. D. Graham (previously GW) 21:25, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with you and so does Wladik Derevianko. You are in the minority. If there are no other objections, I will return the section to the article. --Mschribr (talk) 01:05, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Could you post some links to the articles you refer to, I'd like to offer comments as to whether they are notable sources or not, if you have sources and links, it can't be too hard to work out. Penyulap talk 03:12, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Having reviewed this edit by WDGraham, I support his removal of that content, as it offers nothing of significance to the article at this time. It could however be incorporated in the form of "Initial reports suggested the probe would fall on South western Afghanistan, eventually the probe re-entered and hit "some geographic location" " something like that, and those refs are good for such statements. Penyulap talk 04:15, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Also, a better translation of "Folklore and rumors" would be "Re-entry predictions" if you would like assistance polishing up and translating this text into English please contact me on my talkpage. Penyulap talk 04:21, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I believe you missed the point of the Folklore and rumors section. There really was no initial report the probe would fall on Southwestern Afghanistan. The Russian source fabricated a report. The Russian source is the Russian International News Agency (RIA Novosti), a Russian government owned news agency. The same Russian government is responsible for the Russian space program including Phobos Grunt. Reporting the Russian rumors shows the massive fabrication and deception in Russia and is a reason for the Phobos Grunt disaster. --Mschribr (talk) 10:34, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
W.D.Graham, there is a question of consistency. What about articles in Category:Moon landing conspiracy theories? And more generally, reflection of other kinds of public deceits in Wikipedia, like Category:Ufology or Category:Religion? Are the topics of those articles principally different from the rumors of RIA Novosti? Or they are present in Wikipedia by mistake?Wladik Derevianko (talk) 08:08, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is also a question of notability. While I personally believe that Ufology and the Moon landing conspiracy theories are a load of crap, they have been covered extensively in the media and popular culture. I'm not even going to start on how religion is notable. Your "conspiracy" theory about Fobos-Grunt is based on your interpretation of a single news report, and you provided no sources to suggest that the claims were even false, let alone part of a conspiracy. Therefore, I would suggest that the inclusion of this material would violate WP:FRINGE, WP:OR and WP:VERIFY. --W. D. Graham (previously GW) 12:26, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Here are two articles which mention the news story from RIA Novosti: MSNBC and Universe Today. Both have contacted StratCom to verify the story; they obtained no confirmation, but no denial either. Razvan Socol (talk) 14:18, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody insinuated there was a conspiracy to destroy Phobos grunt. Each deception by itself may not jeopardize Phobos grunt. However, the preponderance of deceit condemned Phobos grunt to fail. 3 editors think this is notable. 2 editors think this is not notable. If there are no more objections, the section should be returned. --Mschribr (talk) 23:57, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Who's talking about a conspiracy to destroy it? To quote your justification for including this: "That there is a lot of fabrication and deception in Russia. It explains why Phobos grunt [sic] and many Russian space missions failed. The Russian engineers lied when then said the Phobos grunt [sic] is ready for launch, thinking everybody is lying". That sounds like a conspiracy theory to me, regardless of its aim. Secondly, this is not a vote, so stop quoting how many people are supporting each position as if it mattered. We need to establish consensus on the matter, and at the moment it is clear that no consensus has been reached. --W. D. Graham (previously GW) 00:15, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If people do not plan an action as a group then there is no conspiracy. I never suggested there was a conspiracy about Phobos grunt. I only wish to say the Russian news agency, RIA Novosti, reported that The U.S. Strategic Command said the spacecraft would enter the atmosphere at 2.22 a.m. Moscow time (22.27 GMT) and fall somewhere between 30.7 Degrees North and 62.3 Degrees East in southwestern Afghanistan near the city of Mirabad. However, the U.S. Strategic Command never made this statement. This is notable for 2 reasons. RIA Novosti is the Russian state-owned news agency. Where Phobos grunt will crash will have consequence because of its size, amount of rocket fuel and nuclear fuel. --Mschribr (talk) 03:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Nuclear fuel"? What the hell are you talking about? And with regards to the accuracy of the RIA Novosti article, we don't need to report every little mistake made by a major news agency. Accidents happen, and unless it is covered elsewhere it is trivial. --W. D. Graham (previously GW) 09:23, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I mean radioactive material cobalt-57. The Mössbauer Spectrometer on Phobos-Grunt carries radioactive cobalt-57. See space.com http://www.space.com/14056-doomed-mars-probe-phobos-grunt-falling-debris.html , Space flight 101 http://www.spaceflight101.com/phobos-grunt-mission-updates.html and space safety magazine http://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/2011/11/13/russian-controllers-unable-reestablish-contact-ailing-phobos-grunt/ . RIA Novosti is not any major news agency. RIA Novosti is the Russian state-owned news agency. The same Russian state built Phobos-Grunt. RIA Novosti is not making a small mistake. This is not a small bit in an article. This is the headline of the RIA Novosti article. The RIA Novosti headline is “Russia’s lost Phobos-Grunt to fall in Afghanistan – U.S. military”. RIA Novosti does not consider this an accident or mistake because there is no correction. See the RIA Novosti article http://en.rian.ru/russia/20111226/170500780.html --Mschribr (talk) 14:51, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You are still reading far too much into their refusal to retract the story. What I suspect they have done is printed a raw prediction, ignoring the uncertainties in the calculations. For a satellite decay that far in advance, the error bars would be quite significant, so the prediction is unreliable but appears accurate. That explains the inconsistency, and is far more likely than your story about deliberate misinformation. As for the cobalt, it is an insignificant trace quantity that isn't even worth discussing. --W. D. Graham (previously GW) 18:58, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Who cares what you suspect? Stick to the facts. The U.S. Strategic Command never said the spacecraft would enter the atmosphere at 2.22 a.m. Moscow time and fall near the city of Mirabad, Afghanistan. The Russian state-owned news agency made a false report and never corrected it. --Mschribr (talk) 00:14, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not advocating putting that into the article, I'm just pointing out that your claims are fanciful and wrong. Now since you agree that "what you [or I] suspect" should not be included, and that we should "stick to the facts", let's have a discussion on the "facts" that support the notability of this news report. There are none. People make mistakes, there has been little or no third-party coverage, and it is just a news report, regardless of the source, so it is not notable. Your entire case for including it is based on what you suspect, so by your own admission it should not be included. QED. --W. D. Graham (previously GW) 09:52, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What claims are fanciful and wrong? I only want Wikipedia to say the RIA Novosti report was false and not corrected. It is notable for three reasons (facts). The Russian state wrote the news article and built Phobos-Grunt. The RIA Novosti (Russian state) article talks about the crash, which could be the most toxic crashing satellite ever. Two sources mention the RIA Novosti news story: MSNBC and Universe Today. The Russian news agency article is not a mistake because it was not corrected. I do not want to include that the pervasive lying by the Russian state condemned the Phobos-Grunt to fail. That requires a longer section and more sources. --Mschribr (talk) 17:10, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Mschribr, please note that the two sources (MSNBC and Universe Today) do not claim the RIA Novosti story is false. The U.S. Strategic Command did not deny the information (they only said "no comment"). For all we know, the information may be true, but it was an internal information, not released to the public. Razvan Socol (talk) 18:15, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Razvan Socol, incorrect. Have you checked what the United States Strategic Command says? The United States Strategic Command says, “When an object appears to be re-entering within seven days, orbital analysts in the JSpOC will increase sensor tasking (monitoring) and begin to project a refined re-entry time and location”. That means they begin to predict reentry 7 days before reentry. Not 3 weeks before reentry on December 26, as RIA Novosti said. See for yourself at http://www.stratcom.mil/factsheets/USSTRATCOM_Space_Control_and_Space_Surveillance/ . The RIA Novosti said in December 26 that Russia’s lost Phobos-Grunt to fall in Afghanistan – U.S. military. The RIA Novosti said on December 26, “Russia’s Phobos-Grunt spacecraft bound for Mars and stuck in an orbit around Earth will fall in southwestern Afghanistan on January 14, the U.S. Strategic Command said on Monday”. The United States Strategic Command never said that. The RIA Novosti lied because they never corrected it. See what the RIA Novosti said at http://en.rian.ru/russia/20111226/170500780.html --Mschribr (talk) 19:15, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Dictionary.com defines a lie as being "a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive". You are yet to prove, or provide any evidence to suggest, that the spurious information in the story was included intentionally. --W. D. Graham (previously GW) 22:32, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If it was not to deceive then why have they not corrected the “mistake”? --Mschribr (talk) 23:34, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is not for me to speculate - they might not have noticed it, or maybe they don't believe it is wrong, or they are going to stick with it until they get better evidence, maybe they just don't want to print an apology. Claiming that it must be deliberate because it hasn't been corrected is an argument from ignorance, since you are not providing any evidence to suggest that they are actually lying, and rather asking me to disprove it. In any case, since you are yet to provide a single reference for your claims of deliberate deceit, they cannot be considered verifiable, and cannot be included in the article, and since your argument that the news report is notable enough to include is based on your accusations that RIA Novosti are lying, unless you can provide an affirmative citation to prove that they are deliberately lying the material should clearly not be re-added. --W. D. Graham (previously GW) 00:00, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think we have a misunderstanding. I said I only want the Phobos grunt Wikipedia article to say the RIA Novosti story was a mistake and not corrected. I do not want the Phobos grunt Wikipedia article to say RIA Novosti was lying. I am not saying the RIA Novosti story is notable because RIA Novosti was lying. This RIA Novosti story is notable for three facts. The Russian state wrote the news article and built Phobos-Grunt. The RIA Novosti (Russian state) article talks about the crash, which could be the most toxic crashing satellite ever. Two sources mention the RIA Novosti news story: MSNBC and Universe Today. Anything else I said requires more sources and therefore not to be included in the Phobos grunt Wikipedia article. Anything else I said is not to show the RIA Novosti story is notable. --Mschribr (talk) 03:41, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, thanks for clearing that up. That said, the claim that it "could be the most toxic crashing satellite ever" is dubious; it is highly unlikely that the propellant will survive reentry, even if it does it will probably reenter over the sea (spacecraft are statistically more likely to reenter over seas because most of the Earth's surface is covered in water). Unfortunately the mass media seem to see fit to sensationalise every large satellite reentry, and whilst this one is slightly more dangerous than ROSAT or UARS, it is still marginal. Also, describing it as a "crash" is wrong; it will disintegrate and burn. A small amount of debris might reach the ground, but not much. There was an incident involving about the same amount of propellant in Siberia a couple of weeks ago when Meridian 5 failed to reach orbit, but it was hardly noticed. I can't remember how many Protons have fallen in Kazakhstan over the years, but they are far more "toxic" than Fobos-Grunt. Secondly, I don't think that two references in other media are enough to make it notable in the long term, and finally, since the article has been discredited I don't think we should use it as a source, even about itself. --W. D. Graham (previously GW) 08:26, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
NASA veteran Oberg said it could be the most toxic crashing satellite ever because the propellant maybe frozen and therefore survive the heat of reentry. Roscosmos said it is highly unlikely that the propellant will survive reentry. We know Roscosmos has credibility problems. There is a 25% chance it will reenter over land. This is a threat. Meridian 5 was destined only for earth orbit. Phobos grunt was destined to leave earth orbit, fly to mars, orbit Phobos, land on Phobos, blast off Phobos, leave mars orbit and fly to Earth. How can Phobos grunt have about the same amount of propellant as Meridian 5? The complete outcome of Meridian 5 is unknown as it crashed in Siberia, Russia. The Russian reports are not creditable. The same for the Proton rockets as it was destined for earth orbit and crashed in the Kazakhstan, which was part of the Soviet Union. The notability guidelines do not apply to article content. The notability guidelines are whether a topic can have its own article. The RIA Novosti news story has been discredited and is therefore a source for “mistakes” made by the Russia press about Phobos grunt. --Mschribr (talk) 19:43, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What do we do now? --Mschribr (talk) 03:38, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Another article from MSNBC, unrelated to the RIA Novosti story: "Satellite-watcher Ted Molczan said his analysis of decay data from the U.S. Strategic Command suggested that the fall would come early Jan. 16, with an estimated uncertainty of plus or minus two days.". So the U.S. Strategic Command does release data, but we don't know if they make official predictions. In my opinion, the RIA Novosti story is incomplete (it is missing the uncertainty part), inaccurate (it attributes the prediction to US Stratcom, although only the decay data may originate from them), but not completely false. Therefore we should not use the story in the article (because we have more credible information now), but we should not draw any conclusions about deliberate misinformation, either. Razvan Socol (talk) 07:10, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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