Talk:Killing of Trayvon Martin

Trayvon Martin

Suspended from Michael Krop Senior High School in Miami-Dade, Trayvon, 17, went to Sanford with his father to visit the father’s girlfriend. The family won’t say why the teen was suspended, but said the trip to Central Florida was in part designed so the father and son could spend time together getting Trayvon focused.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/22/2708185/embattled-sanford-police-chief.html#storylink=cpy — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rcecola (talk • contribs) 20:43, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

According to the following Orlando Sentinel article, Michelle Kypriss, Trayvon Martin's English teacher at Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School in Miami, stated that Trayvon Martin was suspended for 5 days for tardiness, not for misbehavior at school:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-17/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-tension-20120317_1_shooting-death-english-teacher-uncle

76.123.133.211 (talk) 00:06, 23 March 2012 (UTC)SuspensionSpecificier

Some Claims

Here are a couple claims I have heard and I wonder if anyone can verify these with evidence:
1) The location of the scuffle is not 'on the way' home from the store Trayvon was at, suggesting that he took 'the long way home' to walk by these houses despite the rain. Do we have google maps location of the 3 places?

He was being pursued by Zimmerman and felt threatened, so he had changed his route to try and get away from him.

2) Zimmerman was injured. (& to what extent?)
3) We know that Zimmerman has called the police many times, but how many times were these calls about black males? According to some sources, all his calls were regarding black males.

No, all of his calls were not about black males. He called about a large variety of different things, from kids dangerously playing in the street to suspicious figures to open garages. So many of his calls involved no sightings of people. QuizzicalBee (talk) 06:27, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

4) Why is the picture of Trayvon seem so dated? One article said that he was a 6’3 140lb football player, but the kid in the picture looks tiny. It sounds like some serious bias, Zimmerman is 5’2 correct? It seems like some people want to paint Trayvon as this little kid being attacked, when in reality he was over a foot taller and probably in better shape given their weights.

I don't know where you're getting this information, but Trayvon was a skinny kid. He weighed 140 pounds, while Zimmerman weighed 250 pounds--figures repeated in many many articles, including in reliable sources. I've never seen anything that reports that that is Zimmerman's height. Trayvon wasn't a football player at the time of his death. There is a photo circulating of him suited up for football, but that was from a few years back when he was a middle school student, and he was quite small in the picture, with skinny arms: http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2012/03/21/trayvon-martin-obama-and-the-persistence-of-bias/ I can't find a single citation of Trayvon's height by anyone who is reliable. It's mainly people who are defending Zimmerman and no one has provided any sources for their claims. However, I bet they got their information from here or a similar site: http://rivals.yahoo.com/video/recruit-highlights-football/norcalpreps/Treyvon-Martin-Highlights-1-301188?NICK_NAME=&LEVEL=0&TIME=1274137162&SIG=b73b077f12707a0447c0b430d90fc8c1

That is a page about a kid in San Diego named Treyvon Martin (note: TrEyvon. Kid who was killed was TrAyvon) who graduated in 2011 and is 6'3" and 215 pound football player. Here's his picture: https://www.facebook.com/people/Treyvon-Martin/100001293407559 . People mentioning this height and weight seem too eager to defend Zimmerman to bother paying any attention to the difference between San Diego and Miami, between "class of 2011" and "class of 2013", spelling, and facts.QuizzicalBee (talk) 06:27, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

The photo was used, beecause that is the one being widely used in the Media. That may certainly be POV/sympathy pushing, but it is on the part of the media. In any case, if a better picture can be found, I am more than happy to upgrade to it. The only other one I have seen is the "hooded" picture of him, which may be a decent upgrade, considering that that is similar to what he was wearing at the time of the incident. It does appear to be a slightly older picture as well. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:35, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

5) Zimmerman went door to door warning residents to be on the lookout for "young black men who appear to be outsiders". Was this the description of the burglar in his neighborhood, or something he invented?

There were many different break-ins and suspicious activities. Some people were caught, some not. So there were suspicious people whose descriptions were unknown. By focusing only on black people as suspicious, and on focusing on black males collectively as suspicious, you can be sure to ignore any non-black people who might actually be criminals, and you will also be criminalizing innocent black men who are themselves crime victims, which is exactly what happened here.QuizzicalBee (talk) 06:27, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate it if anyone could clear these up; if not for the wiki article for my own curiousness. --76.175.31.150 (talk) 05:04, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Concerning Zimmerman injuries, from the preliminary report at http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf , "Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and back of his head." He needed only minor first aid from Sanford Fire Dept units before the was transported to the police station. Doctree (talk) 00:58, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

911 calls

I am not very familiar with using wikipedia, but I would like to bring up that the city of Sanford has released 911 recordings from the shooter as well as a few residents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.56.186.73 (talk) 05:02, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up, I added a link to the article. VQuakr (talk) 05:23, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Not quite the link I was thinking of, but I gave it a go and added a mention of the City of Sanford's official release of the 911 recordings and added a link. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.56.186.73 (talk) 19:21, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, we should have a link to the city as well. I moved the reference to earlier in the paragraph, since the two sentences basically were duplicates. VQuakr (talk) 19:25, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

I am not familiar with using Wikipedia as well, but aren't the claims that Zimmerman tried to apprehend Martin and that 2 shots were fired completely false? According to the witnesses in the recorded calls there is only 1 shot (listen to the call in the cited article - only 1 shot and the witness says 1 shot). Also, the article which is cited for Zimmerman apprehending Martin makes no mention of the fact. There is no evidence on how the confrontation between Martin and Zimmerman happened, but Zimmerman certainly has a history of pursuing suspects. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.240.164.135 (talk) 09:53, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

In another call, Zimmerman claims to be pursuing Martin. 67.86.183.40 (talk) 20:06, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Also, in that same call, Zimmerman does mention, twice, that Martin was running — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.56.186.73 (talk) 07:17, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Placing the entire transcript of the 911 call from Zimmerman in the page would avoid (even) the appearance POV. Suggest we do that here.ArishiaNishi (talk) 19:17, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Errant material is being post here at an alarming frequency. Zimmerman used the police's non-emergency number to call the police. Simply Google "Zimmerman non-emergency" in the Google News section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.3.103.157 (talk) 23:38, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I have read the results of that search, and I think the text is somewhat confusing but clear. The non emergency calls that are being referred to are not the call he made in relation to this incident, but other previous calls (for example, the "daily beast" article mentions 6 non emergency calls released - clearly zimmerman did not call the police 6 times over this single incident. So anyway - we could qualify the statements about previous calls to say a mix of 911 and non emergency calls, but I believe the description of this incident as 911 is accurate, especially considering thats what the police report indicates. -- On second reading some of the 6 may be talking about other peoples calls regarding this same incident. Do you have a specific source saying zimmerman's call was not 911? Gaijin42 (talk) 04:01, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Listen to how Zimmerman's call http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/911/call1.wav was answered, "Sanford Police Department, line is being recorded, [mumbled 'Dispatcher'] Schantz." That is how calls to a direct police line are answered. Listen to all six of the 9-1-1 calls, each answered with, "Nine-one-one, do you need police, fire or medical?" I won't discuss first question disagreements (my department's is, "Where is the emergency?") but virtually all PSAPs (public safety answering points) answer in similar manners. Zimmerman's call was NOT to 9-1-1. The pertinent calls are available at http://www.sanfordfl.gov in .wav format and http://axiomamnesia.com/2012/03/16/trayvon-martin-911-calls-audio/ in .mpg format. When I can, I'll convert the .wav to .ogg and upload. (talk) 19:26, 22 March 2012 (UTC)Doctree (talk) 01:43, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Can you provide verifiable references stating that this was a direct call to the police, not to 911? It should definitely be edited, if such references are available. (Even if it's just the audio + references that calls in *that area* are answered differently.) I'd think the calls themselves would be more encyclopedic, though, as far as uploading and including them in the article, so please feel free to do that as well! – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 02:18, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

News sources say Zimmerman, who served as a unofficial volunteer neighborhood watchman, made 46 of the 400+ calls made from that neighborhood to police on various incidents or events in the immediate past. Naaman Brown (talk) 20:58, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

number of calls/dates

According to the Orlando Sentinel "Slaying in Florida: Was Trayvon Martin's killer a vigilante or conscientious neighbor?" Zimmerman called police 46 times during EIGHT years of time not one year as noted in the Wikipedia. There is a possibility this may even be a longer period as ClickOrlando.com is reporting the 46 calls being since 2001. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.3.103.157 (talk) 23:30, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

The various reports are not mutually exclusive. Technically he made at least 46 calls since 1985 (the day he was born). Unless we get a RS saying that within one year is explicitly wrong, or a breakdown of the dates of calls I am not sure what we can put other than what has been reported. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:05, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

Shooting of Trayvon Martin → Trayvon Martin – This article was recently boldly moved [1] to Trayvon Martin. I undid this move, but would like to see a broader consensus established either way. This is a procedural nomination to encourage the discussion. VQuakr (talk) 07:08, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose move - This is an article about a notable event, not a biography about the victim of a shooting. The naming convention on events suggests naming an article with "what" and "where," but the "where" is this case does not seem applicable to any article title that would be uncumbersome. VQuakr (talk) 07:08, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I was going to oppose the move as well because I thought Shooting of Trayvon Martin was consistent with naming conventions of people famous for one incident. But then I did a bit of looking on WP and saw that it's rather haphazard. Nicole duFresne, significant only for her murder, gets an entry with just a name. Amadou Diallo gets Amadou Diallo Shooting. Abner Louima gets his name entry; Sean Bell shooting incident] vs. Emmett Till. Rodney King vs. Death of Vincent Chin. Jessica McClure and Yoshihiro Hattori are name only.QuizzicalBee (talk) 08:49, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't see the point of such a move, if someone wants to make a wikipedia article about Trayvon Martin, the let them do so. Otherwise, I believe this is an event that impacts more than just Trayvon Martin and should be its own article. (Just like the Super Bowl events are its own articles separate from the articles of the individual teams playing in it) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.56.186.73 (talk) 09:11, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:ONEEVENT; Had Trayvon Martin not been killed in this incident, would he be notable enough to have an article? I suspect the answer would be no. In such cases, we (should) write an article about that 1 Event rather than the victim. What sources exist that discuss Trayvon Martin and don't reference the shooting? None, near as I can tell. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:43, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
• oppose per above. I originally created this article under just Trayvon Martin, and it was moved by someone else, and I think that was the right thing to do. This article will likely eventually expand to actually be more about zimmerman (if he goes to trial) than the victim. Gaijin42 (talk) 13:56, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Page was moved against the currently forming consensus. I reverted and warned the user. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:12, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Kindof wish I hadn't commented - now I can't move-protect the article. If it keeps getting moved and reverted, that's what I would recommend - if only until this discussion here is resolved one way or the other. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 15:19, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Nevermind - Reaper Eternal has now move protected the article. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 19:59, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support move To create more simpler view on the page and create a page for George Zimmerman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nultiaaliyah1 (talk • contribs)

Creating seperate pages for martin and zimmerman would violate both WP:BLP1E and WP:PERP. Gaijin42 (talk) 03:49, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

"National outrage"?

Isn't calling the reactions to the incident a "national outrage" way over the top? I mean sure, it's a controversial case but it's not "the new Emmett Till" or anything even quite as big. Just an unfortunate incident in which a man of colour killed another man of colour in an act of (alleged) self-defense. 80.187.201.33 (talk) 14:49, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say it's national (or even international, the guardian.uk coverage and all) attention while the outrage seems to be from social media. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.56.186.73 (talk) 15:09, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

My suggestion, in line with the suggestion above, would be to change the term from "national outrage" (which can imply that the outrage is held in common by the nation) to "national prominence" or thereabouts (which merely suggests that this is now a story that is getting national coverage).Voxrepublica (talk) 15:26, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Or it could just be mentioned that the case gained some attention in the national media resulted in (some) controversy. That will suffice. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 15:45, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I changed the phrase to "received international attention". BrainyBabe (talk) 17:41, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Received international attention? Not that I'm aware of... the article only excists on the English wikipedia and in my country, it was not given a single mention. For what it's worth, I say you need some major foreign sources before you mention "international attention". What's wrong with just "national attention"? Mythic Writerlord (talk) 20:42, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

It's not an extensive list, but BBC and the Guardian (both UK media) have been covering this event as well. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/20/trayvon-martin-death-story-so-far?newsfeed=true and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17452878 as well as a couple Australian and Canadian press have put out articles as well as the federal government started to get involved. (although I'm loathe to post these gaudy and long links and start to overload this) Darter9000 (talk) 22:31, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I think this is international attention: http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0,1518,822746,00.html http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/tod-eines-teenagers-in-florida-was-machst-du-hier-1.1314889 http://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaft/kriminalitaet/fall-trayvon-martin-das-opfer-ist-schwarz-der-taeter-ein-weisser-latino-11691307.html http://www.oe24.at/welt/bauernebel/Hobby-Cop-erschiesst-schwarzen-Teenager/60221502 http://www.news.at/articles/1212/15/322448/us-teenager-doch-notwehr — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.127.175.33 (talk) 23:40, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

More evidence of International Attention: Folha de São Paulo, one of Brazil's leading newspapers: http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/mundo/1064464-eua-investigam-morte-de-adolescente-na-florida-apos-peticao.shtml — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.32.35.76 (talk) 16:45, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Definitely international (UK perspective) Kittybrewster ☎ 17:51, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I dont think anyone is doubting international attention at this point. The question is how to qualify it. outrage etc can be POV. I think attention is sufficient for now. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:57, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

National Outrage Fueled by Media Speculation is more appropriate. Quite a few of the news "stories" are inconsistent with the "facts" they are providing. 68.3.103.157 (talk) 23:57, 21 March 2012 (UTC) AndyB

While possibly true, definite WP:OR unless a WP:RS reports it, and that type of meta reporting is fairly unusual unless this case takes a sudden turn for the unexpected (zimmerman completely vindicated somehow?) Gaijin42 (talk) 03:55, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Section on Police Department

Can we get rid of the entire section on alleged racism in the police department? It's quite irrelevant to the shooting itself, and certainly walks a fine line of neutrality. If the police were involved in the shooting, this would be incredibly relevant, but in terms of the investigation, what exactly do other isolated incidents involving other officers in this police unit have to do with this controversy? Let's keep this article about the facts of the shooting & facts about the two people involved, and move the allegations of racism in the police department to their own page.

We don't bring up every instance of alleged racism in the NYPD when there's an alleged racial incident in NYC, and this case is no different. Mpdude8 (talk) 18:14, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

The alleged racism is a significant part of this stories notability, both in the "walking while black" aspect, and perceptions of the police's not pursuing this case as aggressively as might some want. These perceptions may or may not be reasonable, or justified, but they are real, and very notable. The section should stay. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:35, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. Multiple reliable sources references the history of alleged racism of the police department in connection with the shooting. Whether the wider complaints about an institution merit inclusion in the article about a specific incident is probably a case-by-case determination based on what comes up in the coverage of the source materials. But besides that I think the NYPD analogy doesn't fit for a couple other reasons. The Sanford PD is a much smaller institution than the NYPD. Furthermore, a specific officer involved in a past incident was supposedly involved in the investigation of this incident. Furthermore, the investigation of a shooting definitely belongs in an article about the shooting. To view the investigation as disconnecting with the shooting article would be extremely, extremely inconsistent with how other deaths investigated by authorities are treated in Wikipedia articles. --JamesAM (talk) 04:33, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

"myfoxorlando" source?

Is there any reason why the account of the witness who said Trayvon was beating Zimmerman and Zimmerman was crying for help has not been more widely reported? The only source for this story comes from MyFoxOrlando, from February 27. I would think that this would be a rather important mitigating factor in this story. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.81.81.81 (talk) 21:06, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Because this witness told a different story to the police and the account does not match up with other people's accounts. This would indicicate the witness is unreliable, and the fact that there is only one (reliable?) source isn't very promising either. I say we better leave it out. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 21:21, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

If the source is reporting it and the source is reliable, then it should be included. And it looks like it is. It's not our place to determine the reliability of a witness, just the reliability of the news source.Luminum (talk) 21:28, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Then also mention how she told an entirely different story to the police, one that matches Zimmerman's description of the events. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 21:40, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

• The citation says:

"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.

"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

"Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation". MyFoxOrlando.com. 14 March 2012. Retrieved 20 March 2012.

Another source mentions Zimmerman's red jacket. This could be a case of OR. This article and this witness is not saying who is who. What wording should the article say? Suggestions? Richard-of-Earth (talk) 08:34, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Zimmerman bleeding from his face(nose) and back of head along grass on the back of his jacket has been reported by The Orlando Sentinel numerous times.68.3.103.157 (talk) 23:51, 21 March 2012 (UTC)Andy B

How is that source reliable? It provides an account that is mentioned nowhere else, it attributes a quote from Tracy Martin that is mentioned nowhere else, it says Zimmerman is 25 when he's 28, and it claims he's in the Neighborhood Watch when he isn't. The article has two errors and two unsourced uncorroborated points - which is impressive given that the article only has four points. --70.50.237.250 (talk) 14:19, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Infobox

As confirmed above, this is an article about the event, not a biography of the victim - there is ample precedent for this approach, as in Death of Caylee Anthony, 2011 Tucson shootings and many others. Accordingly, it would follow that the appropriate infobox is not the biographical "person" infobox, but instead one for "news event". I do, however, think it is appropriate to add a section that tells readers more about Trayvon, which includes the sourced material that had been in the infobox. (And in any case, we don't have a second infobox on the shooter.) I'm changing it back to the "news event" infobox which would be expanded to reflect arrest and trial when that happens. Do other editors agree? Tvoz/talk 00:40, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Is there a published guideline or policy which says so? I am fine with an "event" infobox, but think there can also be infoboxes for the principle actors involved. I read through the infobox manual of style, and it says nothing about multiple infoboxes being not allowed. Gaijin42 (talk) 00:59, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Just saw that you had changed the infoboxes again - didn't mean to revert without discussing - it was an edit conflict and I missed that. Sorry. I don't know offhand what the policies are, if any, but I have worked on or looked at numerous articles about similar events, and have not found precedent for multiple infoboxes like that. Actually it's more than one article - I mentioned two above, but will look into it further, and see what others think. I did add a biography section about Trayvon which I think is helpful and makes sense in terms of the subsequent flow of the text. Let's see what others think and meanwhile I will look around and see what I find. I do recall objections to a double infobox on the Caylee Anthony article, but I'll see what else is out there. I doubt it's hard policy, but I do think we want to be careful about changing the focus of this article from the crime to the individuals. Tvoz/talk 02:10, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Event infobox is the proper protocol for shootings and other such things. And we don't use more than one infobox in an article except in exceptional circumstances, so that idea is right out. Silverseren^C 02:20, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree that it is unusual, and if a case develops then the event may take priority. However, for now a lot of the interest in the article is coming from the two actors, their respective races, etc. While this information certainly does belong in the article prose, I think having some shortcut infobox is not undue. I would certainly not object to a hybrid event infobox that had sub-sections for victim and suspect details, but I do not know if such a thing is possible. (just did a search and found Template_talk:Infobox/Archive_2#Nested_Infobox will work on something along this vein. @Silver Have a policy/guideline to that? Gaijin42 (talk) 02:22, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

But are any nested infoboxes in use? I haven't seen any and I'm not sure this makes sense here as Silver said. It's the event and its aftermath that warrants the article - I think that has to remain our focus. Tvoz/talk 06:12, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Neighborhood Watch Manual

It's stated throughout this article and in various news items that Zimmerman went against guidelines from some kind of neighborhood watch manual. However, its claimed earlier in the article that he wasn't a registered member of any such watch. It seems the manual in question is from the National Neighborhood Watch Program, but I'm not sure how him violating the rules of some organization he's not even part of is relevant to this event. The terms quoted from this manual are pretty strong (e.g. to suggest he categorically shouldn't have done x, y, z) so it seems like unnecessary POV, especially if there's no concrete link to this case. The source link supporting this in the article is dead anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and remove it for now. 8AE34D5F29933DED51D0A42F7454AEF2 (talk) 09:20, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

With respect, since Zimmerman was acting as a self-styled one-person Neighbourhood Watch, he did indeed have an obligation to follow the rules of such groups. That he may not have formally associated himself with the national organization does not detract from his duty to follow the rules. As the saying goes, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." Because Mr. Zimmerman's entire justification for cruising around his neighbourhood in an SUV tank as a vigilante and for regularly reporting black people for walking on public sidewalks is his alleged participation in Neighbourhood Watch, the formal policies of that group are not at all POV but are highly relevant.

When a police officer shoots anyone on duty, he or she is immediately suspended from street patrol and placed on desk duty or on mandatory leave. I find it amazing that Mr. Zimmerman, as the acknowledged aggressor and shooter, was not himself detained by the local Florida police nor tested for alcohol and drugs in his system, as his speech on the 911 call was apparently quite slurred. I heard that the innocent victim, Trayvon Martin, was in fact so tested posthumously. I'm not sure why User:8AE34D5F29933DED51D0A42F7454AEF2 was unable to check out the source link mentioned. It worked fine when I tested it just now, so I'm restoring the deleted info. I hope you now better understand the need for this section.
— Objectivesea (talk) 11:10, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

My objection (perhaps due to ignorance of the status of neighbourhood watch in the United States, so feel free to correct my assumptions if so) is that I imagine individual neighbourhood watch groups are free not to associate of the National Neighborhood Watch Program, and are free to create their own rules and guidelines by which they operate. Surely an individual may found an independent neighbourhood watch organisation whose guidelines recommend patrolling armed to the teeth, if they so desire. Really what I'm questioning is the authority of the National Neighborhood Watch Program in this case. Are their guidelines enshrined by law? If not I still don't see why their advice on the matter is relevant. 8AE34D5F29933DED51D0A42F7454AEF2 (talk) 11:21, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

the organizations standards are not enshrined by law, and the town was not under a legal obligation to follow the organizations standards or join the organization. However, a significant amount of the defense of zimmerman revolves around his role as the neighborhood watch "doing his job", and the vast majority (OR) of such orgs in the US _ARE_ members of the org, so it is important to qualify that zimmerman was not acting under the criteria/rules/authorization/relationships that many people would automatically assume they were by saying "neighborhood watch". Gaijin42 (talk) 12:49, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I think it might be fair to include an opinion like that in the article, but the current phrasing seems to imply that he's committed an inherent sin by not abiding. It could be done in a more neutral way.

Quoting guidelines abstractly without making clear that they are 'just' guidelines (however popular) would seem to introduce an inherent bias (assumption of authority or officialdom) in the mind of a reader who is unaware of the nature of the organization. Perhaps we might say something like:

"Zimmerman has been criticised for not following widely supported guidelines for neighbourhood watch patrols set by the National Neighborhood Watch Organization, which advises that participants not patrol armed or intervene in suspected criminal activity [cite manual/news sources]."

Acceptable?

8AE34D5F29933DED51D0A42F7454AEF2 (talk) 01:55, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I think we need to take it further and remove the whole paragraph. Unless Zimmerman's involvement in a neighborhood watch program becomes relevant from a legal perspective and is discussed in reliable sources, we just have a quote from a primary source are are synthesizing the suggestions that 1. He was in violation of some guideline and 2. The violation was relevant to the shooting. As written, a reader not familiar with U.S. neighborhood watch organizations might think that this was some sort of professional organization with authority and/or legal regulation.

Incidentally, I just removed the first sentence from that paragraph, which was not supported by the citation given. VQuakr (talk) 07:45, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Agreed! The Neighborhood Watch manual has no bearing on the case, and is just fluff trying to show Zimmerman violated some make-believe rule book created by one organization, a rule with absolutely zero legal standing. If you want the rule book in, find evidence Zimmerman received a copy of the rule book. Otherwise, it's trying formulate a make-believe connection. According to an official release by the city of Sanford, which was sourced by CNN, Zimmerman did no violate any laws by being armed. Remove the entire section. Zenmastervex (talk) 07:54, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

About a decade ago a guy at a party tried to impress his friends by setting himself on fire. He died. His friends described him as an amateur stuntman, and some news sources ran with that, and described the incident as a stunt gone wrong. Other, better, sources briefly explained that he was not in any sense a stuntman, by profession or training, but merely a guy who liked to pull dumb stunts. They went on to explain the rules that real stuntmen follow when performing flame stunts in order to avoid unnecessary risks of harm to themselves and others, and how this guy did almost everything wrong.

I bring this up because the better news sources you folks are second guessing have included discussion of the official Neighborhood Watch guidelines for an important reason. When Zimmerman's defenders describe him as a 'neighborhood watch member', if the press does not then point out that he was not a member of Neighborhood Watch but merely a guy took it on himself to watch his neighborhood, they run the risk of misleading the public into believing that he was better trained than he was, that he was working under the supervision of and in closer cooperation with the police than he was, and also run the risk of allowing his actions to tarnish the reputation of NW. They also run the risk of misleading the public into believing that chasing down and tackling people is the policy of the nationally respected NW. For these reasons this information should remain where it is. To remove it is to lie through omission. 71.189.63.114 (talk) 19:52, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

It's made clear that he isn't affiliated with any organisation, I'm not sure how there could be any confusion over the matter for a reader. I'm still of the opinion that the NNWO guidelines don't belong here any more than any other 'suggested best practices' publication does that may or may not agree with his actions. I don't think it's a big deal for neutrality if the opinion in question is included in the article if properly supported/cited... so long as it is made clear that it is an opinion and not any kind of official stance. 8AE34D5F29933DED51D0A42F7454AEF2 (talk) 20:36, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Here is an RS discussing these issues in detail. I think we can use this source to get rid of the OR, and manage to include both sides of this particular issue fairly. http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/zimmerman-not-a-member-of-recognized-neighborhood-watch-organization.php?page=2 Gaijin42 (talk) 15:13, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Ridiculously biased article The City of Sandford released an official statement stating that Zimmerman was not acting as part of Neighborhood Watch when the shooting occurred. However, the neighborhood watch manual which states that volunteers are not permitted to be armed remains in this biased article. I see an obvious attempt to show Zimmerman as the bad guy here, first by showing that he wasn't supposed to be armed, even though he had a legally issued CCW license, and then by showing he acted outside of his bounds. Regardless of if the Neighborhood Watch Program has regular patrols or not, they also do NOT have the power to determine when a person is allowed to be legally armed or not. PICK A SIDE: Either he was legally armed, which makes the neighborhood watch section irrelevant, or we need to add some reference to the neighborhood watch section that says even though they're not "permitted" (laughable) to be armed by the neighborhood watch program, Zimmerman was not acting within the program when he called in Martin as a suspicious person.

Furthermore, the article at the top states Zimmerman was not questioned by the police. THIS IS FALSE. If you read the police report as referenced on the article, look on the bottom of page 3. The report states Zimmerman was transported to the police department, placed in an interview room, and then interviewed about the incident.

THE BIAS HAS TO STOP. YOU ARE RUINING WIKIPEDIAS CREDIBILITY. Zenmastervex (talk) 07:24, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Has there been a source that claims the neighborhood watch had organized patrols? I agree that quoting a nonbinding, nonapplicable neighborhood watch manual is unnecessary in this article and can give a false impression of relevance. VQuakr (talk) 07:49, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

The entire neighborhood watch manual needs removed. Zimmerman may have self styled himself as a member of the neighborhood watch, but there is no evidence to suggest he ever received a copy of the manual quoted in the article. There are no laws in place to organize a neighborhood watch, nor are there laws against any member of the neighborhood watch being armed. However, by quoting this manual, the implication is the rules applied to Zimmerman. They did not, and he was well within his legal bounds to be armed. Zenmastervex (talk) 08:00, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Note I've fixed some reply fragmentation/indentation issues in this section. Somehow it was out of whack and made little sense so I've tried to set the originally intended indentation again. 8AE34D5F29933DED51D0A42F7454AEF2 (talk) 11:46, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if he was allowed to be armed or not. The issue is that Zimmerman claimed to be the leader of the local Neighborhood Watch - which the term can merely be descriptive of a role, it is also more notable as the actual name of an official program that is linked to law enforcement agencies. When he claims to be affiliated, he is borrowing its credibility. Thus we have to note that he is in fact unaffiliated with the program, and that his behavior is notably different from those in the program. To do otherwise would be a disservice to those actually in the program. --70.50.237.250 (talk) 14:25, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Zimmerman as "Suspect"

Zimmerman hasn't been named as a suspect in a crime at this time, correct? The word "suspect" next to his photo should be changed or removed. --166.20.224.11 (talk) 17:52, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Offically it's still self-defense and not murder, the case is under investigation as we speak so this could very well change soon. However, as of now, we should not a call Zimmerman as suspect for neutrality reasons. It's still just an incident, not a crime. Not yet. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 18:20, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Zimmerman description - "Shooter" should work nicely, since he admits to shooting Trayvon Martin. He told police that he shot Martin in self defense.ArishiaNishi (talk) 19:03, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Describing him as the shooter would be fine - there is no doubt that Zimmerman is the shooter after all, as he said so himself. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 19:23, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

There's a couple of articles that describe him as a "suspect." For example: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/03/21/MNGR1NOF8T.DTL --Ixfd64 (talk) 06:32, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Still, we cannot describe him as a suspect until he actually is declared a suspect by law enforcement. He's likely a "person of interest", but that's a vague term and nobody official has declared him as such yet. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 16:07, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, suspect is not accurate. There is no suspicion. He did it. The question is only if it was justified/self-defense or not. Eventually other words like assailant, perpetrator, defendant, etc may be appropriate but those will have to wait until/if something official happens. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:21, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

No, no!' said the Queen. 'Sentence first—verdict afterwards.--Alice in Wonderland

Why wait for the grand jury to hear evidence when there can be a trial in the media court of public opinion? -- Naaman Brown (talk) 22:05, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Size difference

Aside from the age difference, how do the two match up physically? Zimmerman looks like a pretty big guy. That is not a recent pic of Martin so does anyone know the height/weights of each at the time of the shooting. I think that is important towards providing a clearer picture of the perceived danger Zimmerman supposedly felt... or lack thereof. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.190.175.240 (talk) 12:18, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

From what I have gleaned zimmerman was 250#, martin was 140#, but I am unable to find an RS at this point to source that. Martin we will eventually be able to get from the autopsy when released, but zimmerman is going to be tough to pin down an RS weight, unless it goes to trial I think. Gaijin42 (talk) 13:41, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Source [2]- Kittybrewster ☎ 17:55, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Hrm, good find. Im on the fence as to reliability. While guardian is clearly reliable, this particular article seems kinda bloggy, and does not indicate any kind of sourcing for the information. Lets see if any other comments come in about if this sourcing is sufficient or not? Gaijin42 (talk) 17:59, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

The police report puts Martin at 160 lbs and 6 ft tall. They left out Zimmerman's weight, but mention he was 5 ft 9 in tall. These are, of course, rough guesses made at the scene. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 18:00, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

proposed addition to the end of paragraph ...Martin was unarmed, and was carrying a bag of Skittles candy and a can of Arizona brand iced tea. Trayvon has been reported as being 6 feet tall, and weighing between 140 and 160 pounds, while Zimmerman is approximately 5'9 and has been described as weighing 250 pounds. <refs> Gaijin42 (talk) 18:21, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

T-mobile phone records

In about everything I've read, nothing made any mention of actual phone records from the mobile service provider. Nor does reference [11] make any mention of actual cell phone records. Does anyone know where that came from? Darter9000 (talk) 14:32, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

This story has the phone records and mentions them. I will add it as a ref to that section. http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-arrest-now-abc-reveals-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T2s4idkX5j8Gaijin42 (talk) 14:35, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I see that there is a screenshot of a phone record, but T-mobile or their phone record is still not mentioned explicitly in the referred article. Is it ok to make mention of something that can't be explicitly found on the reference article?Darter9000 (talk) 14:44, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

You must have missed it. "Trayvon's phone logs, also obtained exclusively by ABC News, show the conversation occurred five minutes before police first arrived on the scene." Gaijin42 (talk) 14:51, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

archiving

As this talk page is growing very quickly, I plan on archiving out any discussions that seem to be not active anymore/resolved, and perhaps setting up automated archiving via MizaBot. Any objections? Gaijin42 (talk) 15:00, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Go for it...there really is too much old material on the page. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 15:31, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

 Done Archived several threads, and set up miszabot. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:59, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Police chief Bill Lee

Is he caucasian? Kittybrewster ☎ 20:47, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes. (my opinion of looking at a photo of him. It has not been formally stated in any source as far as I am aware). Gaijin42 (talk) 21:09, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Has he stepped down yet? Kittybrewster ☎ 21:24, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

no. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:32, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

He has stepped down for now, but temporarily. Added it to the article with a ref. It's also irrelevant what race he is, unless that's specifically brought up in the investigation or by the media for some reason. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 22:19, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

You might think it irrelevant. I couldn't possibly comment. Kittybrewster ☎ 23:17, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I certainly think it's irrelevant what race the police chief is, unless his race is brought up regarding this incident or any prior incidents... At that point, it would become relevant. (My *personal* feelings on this actually clash with my own edit, but that's irrelevant to trying to respect WP:NPOV; please speak up if you don't think I'm trying to be neutral with my edit.) – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 01:18, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I accuse you of nothing. I regard NPOV of wikipedia as sometimes a great mistake. I wonder if I could lift stuff from [3]. Kittybrewster ☎ 11:23, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 22 March 2012 (1)

I am submitting this request to edit this article. Thank you.

192.193.221.139 (talk) 22:07, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Please let the community know what specific edits you want to make to the article; I cannot tell what you want edited when you don't mention anything! Additionally, you can create an account and edit articles like this yourself in the future. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 22:58, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I think there were asking for a general permission to edit the article themselves, not really understanding what semi-protected means. Gaijin42 (talk) 23:41, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 22 March 2012 (2)

I would like to request that the infobox on the page be edited, replacing the childhood picture of Trayvon Martin with this more current picture of what he looked like: http://sfbayview.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Trayvon-Martin-in-hoodie.jpg. The justification for the change would be that since this is an article about an event rather than a biographical article, a current photo makes more sense than a childhood photo.

For reference, the article this photo was taken from is found here: http://sfbayview.com/2012/trayvon-martin-justice-department-to-investigate-fatal-shooting-of-unarmed-florida-teen/. Also, this picture is on facebook (search "Trayvon Martin") and just about everywhere on the web (google image search "Trayvon Martin"), so I don't believe it will violate any fair use standards.

If anyone can find a current picture of George Zimmerman, I think editing that would also be a good idea.

Fungusfun (talk) 23:33, 22 March 2012 (UTC)fungusfun

There may be POV issues with showing an image of Trayvon Martin in a hoodie, unless it was a recent picture in context relating to the shooting. (The photo on the article linked is about a "million hoodie march", so I'm not so sure that's quite neutral...) I would also certainly like to see a picture of Zimmerman that's not an old mugshot, for neutrality. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 23:41, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

If you want to upload that picture and get it past the fair use filters (using dead-person rationale?), then I am ok with it. Zimmerman is more complicated. That is the only picture in wide circulation of him, and as a living person wikipedia is more restrictive of the pictures that are allowed. If someone can find a newer picture of him that passes fair-use or licencing issues, that would be great, but in the meantime that is what we have. The mugshot certainly has issues, but there is nothing else available that I am aware of. The hoodie thing is nicely coincidental, but I dont think it has a big POV issue personally.

There is additional discussion of the pictures in the archive section if you want to see how I found these two existing photsGaijin42 (talk) 23:45, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

If the picture in the hoodie can be confirmed as fairly recent, then I'd say that's acceptable; however, if it's more than a year or two old (given his age), then we may have a POV issue vs using a more-generic childhood photo. I really WOULD like to have more-up-to-date photos of both Martin and Zimmerman, but obviously we can't just make those magically pop up online... :) – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 00:33, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I think the only NPOV to approach this would to use the most recent photo available for Martin, unless there is a huge discrepency in quality. There's a big difference between saying you were scared of a 13-year old and a 16-year old, regardless of the validity or believablity of such claims.LedRush (talk) 02:39, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Another request

I am not wikipedia savy, but I've seen this info in several articles. here is one source: http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/03/21/44895.htm

"Aside from withholding the calls, the police department has also been accused of sending a narcotics investigator to the scene instead of a homicide detective, failing to administer a drug and alcohol test to Zimmerman that night, and not reaching out to Martin's girlfriend despite the fact that the pair were speaking on their cellphones minutes before the shooting."

There is no mention on this page of the type of detective originally sent. It's interesting and noteworthy in allegations against the police department... There are also several articles, quoting the girlfriend's lawyer, saying that the police did not originally ask her for a statement, even after they had the phone records. I am not providing one as I'm not sure how well developed that story is, and I don't follow it closely.

Apologies for my inability to edit :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.67.82.103 (talk) 22:15, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Florida Police Chief temporarily steps down

content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/03/fla-city-manager-to-discuss-trayvon-martin-case/1#.T2unk9XXt-Q Police Chief Lee steps down temporarily, saying that his role has become a distraction.Darter9000 (talk) 22:34, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

 Done I added this earlier. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin#Against_the_Sanford_police (and please note if there's anything missing, or feel free to edit it!) – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 22:47, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Trayvon leaving home during halftime of NBA All-Star Game - Impossible

In the "Incident" section, this is mentioned. I know this is what his father said, but it's impossible, because the NBA All Star Game didn't start until 7:30 pm, which is the same time Trayvon was pronounced dead at the scene. I know it's been reported, so maybe it doesn't have to be removed, but it should be preceded by something like "According to Trayvon's father..." rather than presented as fact. --76.99.105.0 (talk) 00:38, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Per [4], the game "started" at 7 PM. Still, I agree this is confusing since many sporting events don't start until well after the announced time (or we're stuck with pre-game stuff, or whatever), so I edited it to "during a break in an NBA game..." (since I have no idea when the game actually started/ended.) – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 00:45, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

More details about who George Zimmerman seems to have emerged

George Zimmerman: White (father), Hispanic (mother: peruvian), Black (other relatives) http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/who-is-george-zimmerman/2012/03/22/gIQAkXdbUS_story.html

(I can't make changes to protected articles) Darter9000 (talk) 03:04, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

 Done I've updated the infobox to include the sourced information. Thanks.
— Objectivesea (talk) 10:45, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Shut down Wikipedia

This is EXACTLY why Wikipedia should be shut down, or at least referenced as a blog instead of an "Encyclopedia" you have a current event that is constantly changing and yet Wikipedia is publishing an article as fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.119.53.11 (talk) 03:16, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

The goal is for the article to contain only material that has already been published in reliable sources elsewhere. Is there information in the current version of the article that you believe is doubtful? VQuakr (talk) 03:32, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Babies and bath water. Kittybrewster ☎ 12:08, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Caucasian Multiracial Hispanic?

Why is this person called a "multiracial Hispanic" ???? Why no just multiracial ? Where was he born ? he does not have a "Hispanic¨ first or last name ! Please be careful with this kinds of stereotipe labels ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.129.72.36 (talk) 21:53, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Someone's name does not determine whether or not he or she identifies as Hispanic. Neither does place of birth. The refs we have indicate that he identifies as multiracial, as well as Hispanic. How is this stereotypical? If the refs are incorrect, please point that out. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) —Preceding undated comment added 22:18, 22 March 2012 (UTC).

I suspect the article calls him Hispanic because his father does:

In an open letter, Zimmerman's father, Richard Zimmerman, defended his son against allegations that his actions were racially motivated, stating that Zimmerman was Hispanic, was raised in a multi-racial family, and "would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever," claiming that the portrayal of his son as a racist "could not be further from the truth."

Can you provide a reliable source to show that the father is mistaken? BrainyBabe (talk) 22:21, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

This actually brings up an interesting point, looking at the ref. He's described as Hispanic, growing up in a multiracial family. Previous edits noted adoptive Jewish parents, but I can't find reliable references to that for now, and I'm not sure that would even make him "multiracial." Perhaps we should just call him "Hispanic" instead of "multiracial Hispanic" for now, until we have a better reference? Again, this is a tricky distinction, especially when we're treading on WP:BLP grounds. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 22:37, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

The situation is complicated. Zimmerman was adopted by a jewish family, seems to be racially latino and may self-identify as hispanic. He was identified as white by the police department. This is personally a pet peeve of mine, but it is what it is : the term hispanic in common usage in the US is not a race/ethnicity but more of a cultural identification (primarily based on language it seems), leading to people being white-hispanic, black-hispanic, latino-hispanic, multiracial-hispanic etc. Anyway, due to all of this, primarily being identified as hispanic by his father, and as white by the police, leads to a difficulty of identification in the article, so multiracial seemed like a good compromise. Gaijin42 (talk) 23:40, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Right; the Census Bureau considers "Hispanic" as a separate class that anyone can belong to, in addition to a primary race or identifying as multiracial. I suppose, short of an official declaration by Zimmerman or a source such as his parents, "multiracial Hispanic" might be the best definition. However, "Hispanic" may be better, since we don't really have a "primary race" or whatever, but then we get into POV issues and the like, so I'm certainly not comfortable making such a change. Any editors with more experience are free to chime in on what he race he should be described as, but I feel comfortable leaving it as "multiracial Hispanic" for now. It seems like the best description, barring any new information. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 00:26, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Can people please cite that he was adopted before claiming it? It taints the discussion. I've only seen rumors on the internet, until that is actually ever confirmed, it should not even be considered. Currently we know his mother is Peruvian/Latino/Hispanic and his father is Caucasian (likely of either German or Jewish decent, just judging by the last name). Diskotech (talk) 07:26, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

"Who is considered hispanic can differ from state to state or differ according to the requirements of the different organizations" from Wikipidea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic#cite_note-4

Was he born in any Latin Country ? Did he grew up in any Latin Country ? Does he speak fluent Spanish ?

AFAIK, multiracial hispanic is an oxymoron term that only has validity in a country like USA. How about calling him a Mulato Hispanic ?

You realize this happened in the USA? So this should be written with that in mind. There is a reason why there are White American and Hispanic and Latino Americans articles on Wikipedia Diskotech (talk) 06:51, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

From Wikipedia "Mulatto denotes a person with one white parent and one black parent, or more broadly, a person of mixed black and white ancestry"

How about "Mestizo Hispanic ? From Wikipedia also "Mestizo is a term traditionally used in Latin America and Spain for people of mixed heritage or descent. In some countries it has come to mean a mixture of European and Amerindian, while in others, like Venezuela, mestizo still retains the original meaning of being mixed without specifying which admixture. " — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.129.70.244 (talk) 02:17, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

He seems to have grown in a Jewish family. And he does not seem to have a lot of African or Amerindian. Why not "White Hispanic"

Note: AFAIK, Racial Profiling is WRONG ---- no matter how is justified ---- and is not Scientific either, is just a social contruct that has been the root of many unfotunate incidents like this one ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(classification_of_humans)#Current_views_across_disciplines — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.129.70.244 (talk) 02:52, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

The Washington Post has an article, stating that neighbors identify his father as a white male. His surename is likely Jewish: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/who-is-george-zimmerman/2012/03/22/gIQAkXdbUS_story.html

"Multi-racial hispanic" is NOT a proper way to describe someone. Being a hispanic by DEFAULT usually implies that you are multi-racial to begin with. This article is being biased. Diskotech (talk) 05:34, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I suggest the racial profiling be dropped for both the victim and the victimizer .... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.129.70.244 (talk) 06:23, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Bottom line: Jewish-dominated Wikipedia editors don't want to let this guy be associated with Jewishness in any way, as though the racian identity of his biological parents has more to do with his behavior than the identity of parents who raised him from birth. Instead, we will fruitlessly fill up this talk page forever and a day while the article tries to states that this horrendous individual is white or caucasian and Hispanic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.51.69.138 (talk) 07:34, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

This is being contested and no one is discussing on here. I am being threatened to be banned, simply for stating the facts. yet people are not following wikipedia policy! Those editing "caucasian" please talk here. Diskotech (talk) 08:20, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Okay, here are my facts: you cannot call him a "multiracial Caucasian." I don't personally care if he's "multiracial" or if he's "Caucasian", whichever the facts supports. I do NOT support "W/M" from the incident report being used to determine "Caucasian", however. Seems to me he's multiracial... But hey, if you have the facts to call him Caucasian, cite them. The only citations we have are to Hispanic and multiracial backgrounds. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 08:30, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

he's been called both white and hispanic. He has a hispanic mother and a white father. his surename is jewish or german. Caucasian Hispanic would be the proper term . It'd be best to get rid of multiracial. This makes more sense as there black hispanics etc etc Diskotech (talk) 08:35, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, if you want to get down to logic with just those statements (aside from growing up in a multiracial family culturally, etc)...he'd have to be called a "White/Unknown Hispanic." We don't know what his mother's race is, other than being "Hispanic." Seems to me that "multiracial Hispanic" is the most logical description, absent any other, since that's all we really seem to have references for. I don't know what these "4 references" you keep referring to are, since I joined this edit war near the end of it. If they exist, put them back in with your edit. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 08:39, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Mother is from Peru. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2017819414_zimmerman23.html and i found an appropiate wikipedia article to link to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans and my articles are cited right after the caucasian hispanic, again do not assume i did not add those. look up ALL my edit history before assuming things Diskotech (talk) 08:44, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

We can just describe Zimmerman as multiracial and drop the "Latino\Caucasian\Hispanic" part altogether. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 08:45, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Please see http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315,0,1716605.story; his own father describes him as Hispanic, and having grown up in a multiracial family. Based on that, I'd say we have to describe him as Hispanic. Since Hispanic is considered a qualifier along with another race, and since he's of mixed ancestry, he is therefore a multiracial Hispanic. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 09:03, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Correct. I fully agree with you. But other people seem to be hellbent on describing Zimmerman as either Caucasian or Jewish, for reasons I do not quite understand. I believe the safest way to go is describing Zimmerman as just multiracial. People reading the article can click on the source and read it themselves. We could also add a note saying that Zimmerman has been described in various ways (Hispanic, Jewish, Latino, Caucasian, etc.,) Mythic Writerlord (talk) 09:09, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

because his father is white and his surname is jewish/german? police have identified him as white. many sources have claimed he is white. it is like you're living in a different world. Diskotech (talk) 09:13, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

multiracial hispanic is redundant. Hispanic is multiracial. Do you guys not understand that? This is why i stated it'd be best to link to the Caucasian Hispanic article i pointed out. Seeing as there are "Black Hispanics" as well etc etc Diskotech (talk) 09:11, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

If Hispanics are by definition multiracial, as you claim, then there cannot be black or white Hispanics, just darker and lighter Hispanics. This is original research, Diskotech, your own personal interpretations. Zimmerman has a Peruvian mother and a Caucasian father, and this makes him multiracial. Or, even more likely, just biracial. And while Zimmerman may sound Jewish, we have no sources saying he is, do we? Mythic Writerlord (talk) 09:18, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

As far as being Jewish goes...well, we do have that statement from his Jewish adoptive father calling him "Hispanic," and since he's of multiracial origin, well...hmm, that might be a multiracial Hispanic! :) – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 09:21, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

is he really adopted? source? Diskotech (talk) 09:28, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, if he was a Black Hispanic, then we'd call him that. He's of mixed origin and Hispanic, thus again, he's a multiracial Hispanic. Please seehttp://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-02.pdf "federal standards mandate that race and Hispanic origin (ethnicity) are separate and distinct concepts and that when collecting these data via self-identification, two different questions must be used." In other words, it's standard in US legal/governmental terminology to refer to someone as both Hispanic and multiracial, unless that person specifically identifies as a person of the Hispanic race (rather than ethnicity.) When neither are specified, we just assume "Hispanic"; we don't even have to assume the "multiracial" part yet, from the Census definition! But then, going on his parentage, he's multiracial, and therefore a multiracial Hispanic. (Since we CAN depend on the Census Bureau definition of Hispanic origin being a qualifier in addition to race.) – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 09:19, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I never claimed he was jewish (others have however), I just simply stated that it was a possibility. This is why I mentioned Jewish AND German. Zimmerman surname has German ancestries as well etc Census definition is in a constant state of flux, look up the rules decades ago. In fact, the term hispanic is disputed on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic It is stated as incomplete. The reason I mention white and black hispanics, is because originally Hispanic was used to identify those with Latin and Spanish ancestry. The Spanish are white. But then slaves were brought into the continent and suddenly you had black hispanics... it is very messy label, to say the least. This is not even including the Portuguese (Brazil) and Italian (Argentina) impact. Diskotech (talk) 09:24, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

We know his mother his Peruvian and that Zimmerman grew up in a multiracial family. How can you describe someone who is of at best only of 50% white ancestry as Caucasian? He's of mixed ethncity, not Caucasian, however you twist or turn it. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 09:28, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Hispanic is in flux, but his father has described him as Hispanic in his released statement. That is the most definitive statement we can have. Then, going by his origin, he's multiracial. Who cares about his surname? It is likely his adoptive parents' surname, but it's pointless to even speculate on that, as surname does not determine race/ethnicity. Thus, again, he is Hispanic (as described by his father) as well as multiracial (as derived from his mixed ancestry), which are mutually allowed by CURRENT Census Bureau guidelines. (Which are about the best set of guidelines you'll find consensus for using to encyclopedically define an "American", realistically.) – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 09:29, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Again, i ask you provide ACTUAL proof that he is adopted. People keep throwing that around without EVER citing that. Only rumours. The police described him as White? The police report is filed as "white", people have called him white. His father simply stated that he was Hispanic, to prove a point out he was multi-racial, and not just a certain race. Thus debunking the claim that there was racial tension (which is kinda silly, because regardless of race, it can be considered a hate crime). He never denied he was white either. So you would only be assuming, ultimately. Diskotech (talk) 09:36, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Okay, simply his parents, then. (You do make a good point about throwing around adoptive, after a bit of Googling.) It doesn't matter if he's adopted or not though, and the surname is irrelevant. His father describes him as Hispanic, and makes no mention of whether or not he is white/multiracial/Jewish/"just Hispanic"/whatever. We do not have a more authoritative source than that. The rest of my points stand as well, irrelevant of whether he is adopted or not. – 2001:db8:: (rfc | diff) 09:39, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Not as if the Sanford police has the world's best track record, and the fact that they call him\called him white does not make him white. I don't know whether or not Zimmerman was adopted, but we do know he has a Peruvian mother and, presumably, a white father. That would make him either biracial or multiracial. The fact that Zimmerman would be adopted or not doesn't suddenly mean his mother is no longer Peruvian and Zimmerman is no longer a man of mixed ancestry. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 09:42, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

You can easily take an open letter out of context. Read it within the context that the fact that they are accusing his son of a racial hate crime, thus defending him by pointing out a background. Again, police described him as white, no one has ever denied that he was NOT white. The fact that you are assuming he is adopted goes to prove my point that you are inclined to "assume", in my opinion(you have yet to provide any solid proof that he is adopted. i have yet to hear any reliable news outlets report this, but yet plenty of rumors. there is a rumor going around that hispanics love to change their name to european acenstry surnames as well... will we be including that too? That's just silly. I mean come on, there is a standard here). Diskotech (talk) 09:45, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I never said Zimmerman was adopted at all, I said that whether or not he is adopted is irrelevant because it does not change his ethnicity. He is the son of a Peruvian mother and this of mixed descent. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 09:48, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

that specific reply in regards to adoption was not directed to you. i'm aware you didn't. 2001:db8:: and others have however Diskotech (talk) 09:51, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I noted that your point about adoption was correct (there's no evidence of adoption), but as Mythic Writelord points out again, it's completely irrelevant. Please stop using irrelevant points that others AGREE with as points of contention, as that gets us nowhere towards forming any sort of consensus. Please form a factual rebuttal to not using Census rules to define him as a "multiracial Hispanic", based on his racial origins and his father's statement that he is "Hispanic." 10:00, 23 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:db8 (talk • contribs)

Stop using irrelevant points? What? You and others are the ones point out adoption! not me! I am pointing out that this DISTRACTS and TAINTS the discussion, as people begin to make ASSSUMPTIONS. I been sticking to the facts. And again, multiracial hispanic was never used. He used those words separately. Implying he was not just hispanic. They also pointed out that he had black relatives. Which anyone can take out of context. Does that make him black? etc etc Again, no one denied he was White and again, hispanic is multiracial. you also have to consider that people use hispanic via various definitions, as pointed out by the wikipedia article itself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic Diskotech (talk) 10:05, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Nobody is arguing about adoption; I conceded multiple times that *you are correct* to not point out supposed adoption. (But it's irrelevant again, so YOU also need to stop bringing it up.) Yes, the word "Hispanic" was used by itself by his father. But again, his ancestry is obviously mixed. Again, the best reference we have here is the Census Bureau guidelines (the other other "guidelines" you give seem to just be assumptions.) Those guidelines state that Hispanic is a general ethnicity that can be applied with a race, such as "multiracial." But I give up on this editwar for tonight. You've reverted the page 7+ times, please read WP:3RR and consider taking a break if you feel you need to revert past that, while discussion is still taking place. 10:15, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

You said it yourself: Hispanic is multiracial. Those are your words, Diskotech. So then why describe him as Caucasian? Mythic Writerlord (talk) 10:09, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

George Zimmerman is described as Hispanic by his father. His father is described as Caucasian American, his mother as Latin American and he grew up in a multiracial household. (Some?) Police reports have described Zimmerman as Caucasian. What is wrong with the description of multiracial? We can drop the Hispanic part altogether. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 08:42, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Put in a reference to being adopted by Jewish parents. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 13:40, 23 March 2012 (UTC)