Talk:Affordable Care Act

"Obamacare"

NOT an informal term, instead a racist term used exclusively by ACA's opponents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.77.103.50 (talk) 14:57, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I disagree, I am certainly not an opponent of ACA and am fine with it being referred to as Obamacare. It is a descriptor of a healthcare package signed by President Obama. There is nothing racist in someone's last name. Ryan Vesey Review me! 14:59, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

While there are certainly are some racist undertones when it comes to Obama (The citizenship issue for one) I don't think that this particular shorting on the law's name is one of them. It should also be noted that the Massachusetts reform law passed by Mitt Romney when he was Governor is also similarly known as Romneycare.--174.93.167.177 (talk) 17:58, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Obama himself has called it Obamacare, therefore Obama is a racist...against himself? Arzel (talk) 18:36, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it is, or ever was, racist, but it did originate as a pejorative term. The irony is that as people slowly start to benefit from this law (and realize that the Republicans have been lying to them all along), they will start to appreciate what the law does for them, and "Obamacare" will become a compliment, not an insult! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Captain Quirk (talk • contribs) 18:00, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Reference 20

Warning: this resource doesn't specify a title. I'll go look for one. 68.173.113.106 (talk) 02:37, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

2012-06-28 Ruling

Lets not get ahead of ourselves and do this the right way. The information is still pouring in. "on June 28, 2012, the Supreme Court announced it upheld the law in full" That statement is not completely true, from what I can gather reading the news, the individual mandate was upheld, but the Medicare clause of the Act was limited. --Wingtipvorte^X (talk) ∅ 15:01, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Semi protect

The law was just upheld as constitutional, and the 5-4 Supreme Court decision upholding it will be a flashpoint for politically motivated IP editors. I have an account, I just forgot to log in. 67.169.4.243 (talk) 15:47, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Seconding request of 67.169.4.243. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:48, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

As of right now, I'm not seeing a lot of vandalism on this article. If vandalism does start to appear, a request should be made at WP:RPP. Ryan Vesey Review me! 15:51, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

In this, though, we must also remember that an ounce of prevention is a pound of cure. Nobody wants Romney's or Obama's campaign or Conservapedia to edit this page and add their unsolicited opinions to the page. It is all in the interest of WP:NPOV. I will post this at RPP. Wer900 • ^{talk • coordinationconsensus defined} 17:08, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Already true Republican warriors are editing the page, saying flat out that the individual mandate creates a tax, rather than mentioning the current RS consensus that it functions like a tax in that the penalties for not following are constitutionally taxes but functionally not. I understand that this statement may be somewhat POV biased, but the fact that completely anonymous IP editors can act like thieves in the night and edit without their edits ever being ascribed to some reputation. Hence the page should be semi-protected. Glad that you put my request on WP:RPP. Wer900 • ^{talk • coordinationconsensus defined} 17:23, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, already Democrat warriors are editing the page to push their POV. Semi-protect, please. HammerFilmFan (talk) 18:23, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Yep, I put it in at the second hint of vandalism that appeared after I began watching the page. I don't want to deal with edit wars. Things like this are the exact reason I am not a republican. (Conversely, if this had failed the results would be the exact reason I'm not a Democrat). We should create an edit notice reminding all POV warriers that they can create Mywikimyway.wikia.com Care to poke some admins on the page protection? Ryan Vesey Review me! 18:07, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

The Rise of Socialism in America

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Is worth to note that this plan is just the beggining of american socialism and the fall of the conservatisms and capitalism? Is this act irreversable? A section about the theory of passive revolution citing Antonio Gramsci can be made? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.79.174.151 (talk) 18:50, 28 June 2012 (UTC) That information would be original research and wouldn't be appropriate for the encyclopedia. Ryan Vesey Review me! 18:53, 28 June 2012 (UTC) It would be almost worthwhile to set aside our content policies long enough to hear how an act that pushes people to buy insurance from private, for-profit corporations is "socialism". MastCell Talk 19:12, 28 June 2012 (UTC)  Ryan Vesey Review me! 19:16, 28 June 2012 (UTC) It's hardly the beginning of American socialism, considering that we've had progressive taxes going back to the 1860s. Not to mention the New Deal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.174.4.92 (talk) 19:59, 28 June 2012 (UTC) The individual mandate was a conservative idea before the democrats passed it. C6541 (T↔C) 20:29, 28 June 2012 (UTC) As much as I'd love to debate this absurd suggestion, This is not a political forum. Please take this to the comment pages of www.any-where-else-but-here.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.65.34.55 (talk) 21:18, 28 June 2012 (UTC) The IP is correct, I'm hatting this to prevent further misuse of the talk page. Ryan Vesey Review me! 21:22, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

"controversey" 4-1-1-3 - better sourcing?

Under the impact section there is a somewhat long bit about "controversy" over alleged double counting. As I was reading through the first couple paragraphs, I wasn't able to find anything in the cited sources that indicated there was a controversey. I don't want to debate over semantics, but nothing in the sources (191-193 if I remember correctly?) seemed to be anything but explanations of the mechanisms. For us to say there is a controversey, we should be referring to secondary sources that indicate it as such, not applying our opinion or OR based on base data in the cited sources. I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be called a controversey, just that if we do, it should be backed up by the citations. The first paragraph specifically refers to a controversey, but the single citation does not support that. Given the sensitivity of the article, I thought I'd bring it here first. However, unless there are any concerns voiced in a couple days, I plan to look for additional sources or change the wording, whichever is suitable. I would also suggest that this could be edited down a bit. It seems to be getting a bit of undue weight compare to more beefy issues handled is far less space...Hopefully the partisan slapfest will subside in the next couple days and the adults can get back to the real work here. Jbower47 (talk) 21:29, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Proposed hatnote

This article is about a politically controversial topic. When making a statement of opinion or of fact, please cite an independent, reliable source.

How is it? Wer900 • ^{talk • coordinationconsensus defined} 22:29, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Is there any grounds in policy for editing notes that appear to the reader? I think we could put a hidden note in, but I have had no experience with hatnotes like the one you proposed. In any case, it is semi-protected so we shouldn't have too many problems from inexperienced editors. Ryan Vesey Review me! 23:29, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

If the OP is suggesting we add a hatnote to the article, then I agree it isn't supported by any policy or guideline. We add hatnotes primarily for the benefit of readers not editors. For any messages to editors, either change the edit notice or add a hidden notice. Adding it to the talk page would be okay, but we usually use boxes not hatnotes for that, and it seems superflurous to the existing box saying it's controversial and may be in dispute. Nil Einne (talk) 10:47, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Was the individual mandate actually upheld, or was the challenge to it just dismissed?

I've been reading the actual opinion, and Chief Justice Roberts never actually wrote that the Court found the individual mandate to be constitutional per se. What he wrote was that Congress could argue that the mandate is a tax. He then goes on to talk about the Anti-Injunction Act which prevents challenges to tax policy until someone has actually had the tax levied upon them, paid it, then sues for a refund.

From my understanding of the opinion, the Court merely dismissed the challenge to the individual mandate under the Anti-Injunction Act, but also left the door open for future challenges. FreakyDaGeeky14 (talk) 23:31, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I have no opinion on that, but inclusion of that material would be original research. Reliable sources such as this and all of these state that it was upheld. I found some sources for "individual mandate dismissed" but those are not referring to this supreme court case. Ryan Vesey Review me! 23:35, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

How is citing the actual opinion original research? FreakyDaGeeky14 (talk) 23:50, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

It's not, if the editor merely makes a statement that reflects the actual content of the ruling. It is, however, a primary source and any interpretation or even selective quoting from the ruling would be problematic and likely POV or OR. Much better to use a secondary source for verification. Wikipeterproject (talk) 00:49, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

The use of primary sources in Wikipedia is not, in and of itself, prohibited original research or non-neutral point of view. Wikipedia guidelines do not prohibit the use of primary sources. What Wikipedia guidelines do is say that in most circumstances, an article should rely mostly on secondary sources. It is the misuse of primary sources that may constitute one kind of prohibited original research.

No, the Court did not "leave the door open" for future challenges to the individual mandate in the sense that I think was intended by my fellow editor above. Indeed, the door can't be "opened" or "closed" in this sense. In the United States, courts decide only the issues put before them. Anyone could theoretically challenge the individual mandate, or any other statute, on any theory the challenger can come up with.

In this case, some of the greatest legal minds in the nation -- on all sides of the health care law issue -- argued the best arguments they could find. The Court rejected every attempt to have the individual mandate declared unconstitutional. I won't get into a long explanation, but, essentially, under U.S. laws, once a provision is determined to be a federal tax, it is very difficult from a constitutional perspective to get that provision declared unconstitutional. There are very few constitutional limits on the power of Congress to impose a tax. Famspear (talk) 01:45, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and just to be clear: Yes, the Court held (not "found," but held) that the mandate is constitutional. No, the Court did not merely dismiss the challenge to the individual mandate under the Anti-Injunction Act. Famspear (talk) 01:49, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I see that through the day, editors have added secondary sources, such as the CNN material. Situation normal..... All is well..... Famspear (talk) 01:59, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the SCOTUS did say that the Commerce Clause did not authorize a mandate in order to create commerce, so the mandate as a section of the Commerce Clause is unconstitutional, but since they ruled the mandate a Tax it was a provision of congress. Small victory for those that wished for some restraint on government control. Arzel (talk) 03:28, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, to be more precise, the Court went through the analysis of the Commerce Clause and the Necessary and Proper Clause to illustrate that those particular clauses could not support the mandate. The Court then went on to rule that the mandate is constitutional -- because it is a tax and because it violates no provision of the Constitution that limits taxes. In other words, the Court refused to hold the mandate to be unconstitutional. That's a way of saying that the mandate is not "partly constitutional and partly unconstitutional". The only part of the law that was ruled unconstitutional was one provision relating to the "Medicaid expansion" codified at 42 U.S.C. section 1396d(a). Famspear (talk) 05:20, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Note: I think the specific provision of the Medicaid expansion that was ruled unconstitutional may have been section 1396c, not section 1396d(a), but I haven't studied that part of the decision yet. Famspear (talk) 05:23, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I would say it is all pretty much a distinction without a difference. Basically they punted this to 2015 when people will start paying the tax and have the ability to challange it under anti-injunction. When it is all said and done, I am not sure the left will be all that happy with this result either. Arzel (talk) 13:54, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

No, Editor Arzel, I think you're missing what the Court ruled. You don't challenge a tax "under" the Anti-Injunction Act. The Anti-Injunction Act (i.e., the one that relates to Federal taxes) is simply a law that prevents you from litigating the validity of a given tax that the IRS is asserting against you until you first pay the alleged tax. Essentially, the Anti-Injunction Act forces you to first pay the tax and then (if the IRS denies your refund claim) sue the government for a tax refund. (There are various areas where the Anti-Injunction Act does not apply, such as in U.S. Tax Court or in bankruptcy cases, but that's another story.) The section 5000A penalty, the "individual mandate", won't even be owed by anybody until the year 2014 (actually, I think, in early 2015, when the year 2014 tax returns will be due). So, one part of the thinking was: How can you litigate the validity of a "tax" that no one even owes yet? And: Is the section 5000A penalty (the mandate) considered to be a "tax" that is covered by the Anti-Injunction Act? The Court answered those questions by ruling that the mandate is NOT considered to be a "tax" for purposes of the Anti-Injunction Act. Even if it were considered a "tax" for purposes of the Act, it's not even located in the part of the Internal Revenue Code to which the Anti-Injunction Act applies. (By its very terms, the Anti-Injunction Act applies only to some, but not all, taxes imposed in the Code.) Therefore, the Court ruled that the Anti-Injunction Act does not prevent the parties in the case from litigating the validity of the section 5000A penalty.

The Court then went on to the next issue: Could the mandate be justfied under the Commerce Clause? (The Court also discussed the Necessary and Proper Clause.) And, if not, can the mandate be considered constitutionally valid as a "tax". The result was, essentially, that the mandate is constitutional because it is a valid exercise of the power of Congress to impose a tax. There is legal difference between ordering people to buy something (health insurance) and taxing people who do not buy that something. From the text of the Court's opinion:

The Federal Government does not have the power to order people to buy health insurance. Section 5000A [of the Internal Revenue Code] would therefore be unconstitutional if read as a command. The Federal Government does have the power to impose a tax on those without health insurance. Section 5000A is therefore constitutional, because it can reasonably be read as a tax.

I think relevant context for this philosophic distinction can be understood from the Marihuana Tax Act of 1937, though unless a source drops out of the sky with this I don't see a way to use it to clarify the article itself. Wnt (talk) 23:27, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

--from pp. 44-45, slip op., National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius, no. 11-393, U.S. Supreme Court (June 28, 2012) (italics added). Famspear (talk) 14:37, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

In short, the challenge was NOT dismissed under the Anti-Injunction Act. Instead, the Court ruled that the Anti-Injunction Act does not apply. The case was NOT "dismissed." The Court then specifically ruled that the individual mandate is constitutionally valid as a tax. Famspear (talk) 14:50, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

State legislation/constitutional amendments

[1] looks like a useful source for additional map information, but without looking into this a lot further I don't know for sure it doesn't duplicate existing charts i.e. opposition by court challenge. (What I'm really looking for is the names of the seven states that have already implemented the 133% of poverty level Medicaid expansion... still haven't found that) If the information is welcome I think I remember how to mark up an .svg ... Wnt (talk) 00:06, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

semi protected - I cannot make this edit

expands access to insurance to 30 million Americans,

should read

expands access to insurance to an additional 30 million Americans, — Preceding unsigned comment added by James Bayley (talk • contribs) 07:34, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

 Done elektrikSHOOS (talk) 08:02, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Fork?

This article is mighty long. Any thoughts on breaking part of it off into a new article? Perhaps "Provisions of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act" or "Challenges to the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act"? I don't want to take away from this article, but it needs to be easy to read. --Another Believer _(Talk) 15:19, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

I like the idea of a Provisions of the PPAC article. Honestly, this article is already a TLDR for me. Ryan Vesey Review me! 15:21, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Just created the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act Provisions site, linked the provision section on this site to the new article and shortened the provision section here, but linked it to the new site. Should make the article shorter and more readable. --P3Y229 18:29, 30 June 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by P3Y229 (talk • contribs)

Done. Created the Constitutional challenges to the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act site. --P3Y229 19:18, 30 June 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by P3Y229 (talk • contribs)

Provisions are the main part of the article, please do not move them anywhere. If anybody want to make the article shorter, it would be better to move some of the "Legislative history" into Health care reform debate in the United States. The article is about the law, not about political debate over healthcare, so most people look here for provisions and summary of the law. Innab (talk) 03:41, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I disagree with this fork and have reverted it because three people in a day does not make a consensus. The actual content of the bill is the most important part of the article and should not be shoved away into a subarticle. I think this section is plenty readable because it is in several subsections and uses bullet points. It is some of the other long subsections that are more difficult to get through. But most importantly, people come to this article to learn about the law itself, and the recent court case, not the reactions and impact, which is all that's left. P3Y229, I encourage you to read WP:Summary style. If you're going to chop out the part about all the lawsuits, there still needs to be a summary of that material in this main article; leaving just two sentences behind is not a good replacement because moving the long, hard-to-read part doesn't help anyone understand the material, it means they either must go to the other article just to find the hard-to-read stuff, or they don't read it at all. Reywas92^Talk 03:46, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Forking is badly needed. This article is too big, too detailed, and covers too much politically controversial material. I suggest splitting it into at least three separate articles. Belchfire (talk) 03:55, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree, forking needed. Given that two others editors who've worked on the provisions article, they seem to endorse it too. There was no consensus to revert the fork. --S. Rich (talk) 04:22, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

PS: See WP:SIZERULE. --S. Rich (talk) 04:28, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I concur with the reversion. The fork was nicely done and the editor who did it obviously put some effort into it (thank you!). Belchfire (talk) 04:34, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I disagree that we should remove main body part about provisions, but I agree that we can move Constitutional challenges to the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act into the separate article. Please remember that "Provisions" were there for almost 2 years now and many Wiki editors have worked on it. It was the main part of the article since the beginning, and when it was twice selected for "featured article" on the main Wiki page. If we remove this main piece, what will be left of the article? Irrelevant political debate, opinions of random politicians who contradict each other, religious views about abortion, jokes about "obamacare" nick-name, and history of the opinion polls which always change? There are a lot of other "undue weight" blocks that we can remove before we remove the main body sections. I trimmed these undue blocks a bit, so article size now is within 50Kb limit, there many other articles much longer then this one, so I see no reason to cut the main part out. Innab (talk) 05:49, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Do try to keep WP:AGF in mind. Lecturing others about politics while you trim other peoples' from the article is risible. Belchfire (talk) 06:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Forking the provisions out is a bad idea. The provisions are tied to the legislation's funding by design and only time will tell us the impact and/or efficiency of one over the other (or even both together). The focus will eventually have to shift to health care reform in general - once PPACA was fully codified and now ruled constitutionally sound, any future changes in this area will be amending the Public Health Service title, among a handful of others, overall more so than anything directly outlined by the PPACA of today or still to come in the near future. This is the case with most major pieces of legislation and the passage of time coupled with the annual budgeting & appropriations process.

I do agree the whole 'court challenge' thing is safe to move because its going to be pretty much static history if not already. Any remaining cases not immediately preempted by the recent SCOTUS ruling will be denied or dismissed by the start of their next respective sessions anyway. I wouldn't mind seeing some other parts get Forked as well but I haven't given the article the scrutiny it deserves with all changes since the 28th to be honest about it. -- George Orwell III (talk) 15:23, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

@Reywas92: 1.) Arms & Hearts told me on July 1, 2012 that there is a procedure i.e. Wikipedia:Splitting#Procedure that must be followed. I was not aware of this procedure. 2.) In addition this was the first time that I moved content of an article I didn't created. I was not aware that there is a procedure named WP:Summary style. So thank you for making me aware of it.

After reading the previous opinions I agree with George Orwell III. Moving the Act provisions section was bad. It is one the most important aspects of the PPACA article because it shows what the contents and reform implications of the PPACA are. The people wanna know what is at heart of the PPACA. Removing the provisions section to another site is therefore unwise. Because of this I suggest to delete the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act provisions article and not to fork the provisions section. --P3Y229 18:17, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the Legislative history could be split off, just as the constitutional challenges already have been. I think that Repeal Efforts should go with it. However, these sections should be summarized with at least a good-sized paragraph per WP:Summary style, which the constitutional challenges part doesn't presently live up to. Wnt (talk) 23:44, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Lead is too long and complicated

As the final paragraph of the lead reads now we have nonsense: "upheld the majority", and then "The court, however,". User:Somedifferentstuff I agree that a concise summary written by one editor is dangerous but a fair one isn't impossible. Changes are most welcome.

A majority of the states, and numerous organizations and individual persons, filed actions in federal court challenging the constitutionality of some or all of the elements of PPACA. In a June 28, 2012 decision, the Supreme Court upheld the majority of the legislation—ruling that the mandate is a tax and is "within Congress's power to tax", and stopping the federal government from withholding all Medicaid funds from states that fail to comply with the expansion of Medicaid.

Striking. Whatever was bothering me earlier today has passed. - ~~~~

Public Opinion

I find the Public Opinion summary section near the foot of the article to be flawed. Why is there a separate public opinion summary? There is already a Public Opinion section earlier in the article. And if a public opinion summary section is necessary, why does it state that polls show sentiment is against the ACA, while ignoring that public opinion is pro-ACA's individual statutes? At the very least, I submit that the Public Opinion Summary should be modified to include one caveat that refers to the polls with positive responses regarding the individual components of the ACA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.45.36.17 (talk) 04:54, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

The Mandate is not a tax.

The lede currently says

"... ruling that the mandate was a tax and therefore fell under Congress' taxing authority "

This is wrong both grammatically and semantically. The current wording also gives the false impression that the purpose of the mandate is to raise money though the court accepted that it is not. It also uses a wrong tense (was instead of is). Congress' is wrongly spelling (because the extra s is pronounced). To correct these errors I would suggest it be edited by someone (not me) to say

"....ruling that the shared responsibility payment, though intended as a penalty to induce people to become insured rather than to raise revenue, should nevertheless be construed as tax, thus making it and the mandate constitutional under Congress's taxing authority."

Reasoning

a) the mandate is a requirement to have insurance or else pay a penalty- Its the penalty and not the mandate that is the tax.

b) the terms in the law for the payment is both "shared responsibility payment" and "penalty"

c) the Chief Justice, when designating this as a tax, states that "..none of this is to say that payment is not intended to induce the purchase of health insurance" - i.e. he is accepting the government position that the mandate is intended to induce people to buy insurance and not to raise money.

d) the key element of the decision is that the framing of the penalty is constitutional

e) the tense in the original is wrong... the mandate WAS is wrong. It should be IS (sounds like it was written by someone with wishful thinking)

f) the correct spelling is "Congress's" with the extra s shown (because it is pronounced with an extra s) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.223.105.147 (talk) 00:57, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

It is a tax, that is what the SCOTUS defined it to be. If it were a penalty it would be unconstitutional. Those are the facts. Arzel (talk) 22:09, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Aux contraire. The court said the PENALTY was a tax, not the MANDATE. It was because the penalty could be construed as tax that made the MANDATE lawful. You seem to be repeating Republican talking points which do not have to meet Wikipedia's strict rules regarding accuracy.80.223.105.147 (talk) 00:12, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I suggest you actually read the ruling before presenting the Obama's administrations new spin on the wording and belittle the true wording as some Republican talking point. Here is the pertinant passage, I have bolded the important parts.

3. CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS concluded in Part III–B that the individual mandate must be construed as imposing a tax on those who do not have health insurance, if such a construction is reasonable. The most straightforward reading of the individual mandate is that it commands individuals to purchase insurance. But, for the reasons explained, the Commerce Clause does not give Congress that power.It is therefore necessary to turn to the Government’s alternative argument: that the mandate may be upheld as within Congress’s power to “lay and collect Taxes.”

Ergo, it has been defined as a tax. Additionally, the tax itself was not even ruled constitutional, only that since it is to be considered a tax it cannot be challenged until someone actually has to pay the tax. Expect future lawsuits in 2015 when the tax has to be paid for the first time. Arzel (talk) 01:26, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Ergo nothing. The court used English normatively by saying that the mandate (i.e. the part of the law describing the mandate) imposes a tax on those without insurance (i.e. those that do not comply). That is a very different thing from saying that the mandate is itself a tax. A mandate is an order to do something and the penalty is a different thing, being a tax penalty for non compliance. We cannot and must not change the meaning of mandate to mean a penalty. That is nonsense.80.223.105.147 (talk) 21:20, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Dear Arzel: No. Completely wrong. You're still not getting it. The Court ruled that the penalty imposed by section 5000A is a tax for constitutional purposes -- and that it is valid under the Constitution.

There is no need to wait until the year 2015. The Court also ruled that the Anti-Injunction Act does not apply. Period. If the Anti-Injunction Act applied, then yes, you would have to wait until someone paid the penalty, in the year 2015, in order to litigate its validity. That is not the case. The validity of the penalty was decided by the Court on June 28, 2012. It is incorrect to say that "since it (the section 5000A penalty) is to be considered a tax it cannot be challenged until someone actually has to pay the tax." That is completely incorrect. Famspear (talk) 01:50, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I see you are correct abou the Anti-Injunction Act aspect, but I disagree that he ruled the mandate constitutional, I read it that he ruled that congress has the constitutional authority to levy taxes and that is constitutional. Regardless, it is a highly convuluted ruling which will only make things worse. What a sad day for the SC, Roberts made things worse for everyone on both sides of the issue. Arzel (talk) 17:14, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

If the authority for an action has been ruled to meet constitutional requirements, executing that action is then considered or construed to be constitutional. Yes, that conclusion is derived from an extrapolation and interpretation but it is one made based on & within the law. We will never find specific things like a "mandate" in the original Constitution by the founding father's own design - they left the language vague enough to allow future acts or actions to be deemed constitutional without having to list each every possible thing under the sun (something they were wise enough to understand they could never do no matter how long the list). -- George Orwell III (talk) 19:43, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Nothing in this thread addresses the issue I have raised which is that the mandate is an order to do something and the penalty is a penalty which is constitutional because it is a tax. But we cannot say the the mandate is a tax because that changes the meaning of mandate. The Court did NOT say the mandate is a tax, only that the penalty payment is a tax. The lede should be changed.80.223.105.147 (talk) 21:20, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I agree the lede does not reflect reality; only misplaced semantics and misinterpretation of the ruling. Its like saying a speeding ticket is somehow a tax; makes no sense. -- George Orwell III (talk) 21:43, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

There is no rule in Wikipedia that says that the U.S. Supreme Court must use every day terms (such as "mandate" and "tax") in a way that makes sense to Wikipedia editors, or in a way that must be approved by Wikipedia editors. This point has been covered already. No, neither the Court nor the article is displaying "misplaced semantics." Using the term "mandate" in the way the Court used the term does not constitute "misinterpretation of the ruling." Famspear (talk) 22:45, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Dear Arzel: No, the ruling is not really that convoluted. It may seem convoluted if you haven't studied the actual texts of thousands and thousands of court decisions over many years, but these kinds of opinions -- especially by the U.S. Supreme Court -- are fairly common. American law, especially American tax law, is extremely complex, and Supreme Court opinions are not written particularly to be understood by the average person (although I think many courts try to use plain, non-technical language to some extent). Court opinions are written primarily to be understood by lawyers and judges. The Court ruled that the provision in Internal Revenue Code section 5000A that imposes a liability for a "penalty", a "shared responsibility payment", (to use the actual terms in the statute, which does not include the term "individual mandate") is constitutionally valid. The Court upheld that penalty as a tax. If someone goes to court and argues in a court of law that the Supreme Court did not uphold the section 5000A penalty, that person could be penalized for litigating a frivolous position.

By the way, I think the problem that some of my fellow editors are having with the Court's use of the term "mandate" (in a way that is not the "ordinary" way the term is used) reflects an "understandable misunderstanding," on the part of my colleagues, of how legal analysis works. Famspear (talk) 23:04, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

No - it seems to me everybody "gets" your point in general but you may not be realizing that such nuances in language, be they the norm in legal circles or not, should not being deviating so "far" from the common man's language in the opening summary specifically. It's better to have the nuance expanded upon down further in the analysis rather than "steam-rolling" over it just for the sake of some legal etiquette that is lost on most visitors at the beginning of the article. -- George Orwell III (talk) 00:07, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

It is not for us as Wikipedia editors to decide about "deviations" so "far" from the common man's language. Look, this is an article about a court decision. And it's not a question of "legal etiquette". And nothing is "lost on visitors." Indeed, the public at large almost surely views the term "individual mandate" (again, not a term found in the statute) as consisting of both the requirement to buy insurance AND the monetary penalty for failure to do so. That's how the media seems to be reporting the term, and that's how the Court itself used the term. The Court upheld the individual mandate. The Court upheld the individual mandate. The Court upheld the individual mandate. That's how the vast majority of people "hear" the result of this case. And what the Court upheld was the section 5000A penalty -- the requirement to PAY a penalty if you don't buy the health insurance. So, it's not a question of "steam-rolling" over anything.

I would respectfully argue that with some exceptions, as a general rule we as Wikipedia editors should not be here to "correct" the Court -- or the media -- when the Court or the media use terms like "mandate" in ways that we deem to be incorrect. However, if we can find a previously published third party source that says what you want to say, then I say go for it.

With all due respect from me as well, you're still missing the point (in my view) that I & maybe some others are trying to make by the second sentence in the 1st paragraph of your reply above,

"Look, this is an article about a court decision."

No, this is an article about a piece of legislation enacted into law that deals with health care reform and outlines key events as they relate to specific provisions found within the Act -- only one event of many was a constitutional test answered by the high Court. There's a big difference in the way I (or we?) see the primary task for this encyclopedic entry compared to what you think is the primary purpose, subject or topic is. I respectfully dare to say your POV on what amounts to a current event is not the majority view; the Act as an aggregate whole, through time and subsequent events is. -- George Orwell III (talk) 02:31, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Let me give you an example of a situation where I might agree more with your approach -- and it happens to deal with taxes. (This would be an exception to what I am talking about above with respect to the "mandate.") I saw this again just the other day in a Wikipedia article. Members of the news media have a nasty habit of reporting anyone who is convicted of a federal tax crime as having been convicted of "tax evasion" when the individual has not been convicted of tax evasion. For example, a recent news story incorrectly reported Lauryn Hill's guilty plea for failure to file federal income tax returns as having been a "tax evasion." The headline for the story even used the term "tax evasion," if I recall. Now, that is a serious problem.

Failure to file a federal tax return is a misdemeanor, with a maximum penalty of one year in prison. You can be convicted of that merely by willfully failing to do something by a given due date. By contrast, federal tax evasion is a felony with a maximum penalty of five years in prison, and it requires a willful affirmative act (such as filing a false return, lying to the IRS, moving assets around to try to prevent tax collection, and so on). Merely failing to do pay or file is not an affirmative act.

Now, we as Wikipedia editors cannot change what is written in news media articles, and we cannot change the actual headings or titles of the media stories, even if those title are incorrect. What we can do, and what we are required to do, is make sure that the main text of the article itself is correct when dealing with a biography of a living person. In that case, we in Wikipedia have a special legal and moral obligation to make sure we get it right.

But this article on the Affordable Care Act is not that situation. We may not like the way the media and the courts use the term "individual mandate." But our choice is not to "correct" them. What we can do, perhaps, is to point out in the article that the "mandate" (as that term is used by some in the media and sometimes by the Court) does consist of more than one component: (1) the requirement to buy insurance, and (2) the penalty imposed on those who do not buy. Now, that may require using a primary source (the text of the statute itself) but Wikipedia rules do not prohibit the use of all primary sources in all situations. This could be a situation where use of a primary source is helpful.

Look, you are making far too many assumptions. Let me be blunt with apologies in advance.

I get it just fine.

Its a tax as far as it relates to the Internal Revenue Code of 1954, as superseded by the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended, and as currently codified to Title 26 of the United States Code.

No seriously, I do get it. Things like a lien arising from an unsatisfied order of restitution issued in favor of the victims of someone convicted for a federal crime under Title 18 can also be considered or construed as a tax even though the laymen scratch their heads and wonder to themselves 'how is possible for the government to tax someone for the benefit of someone else'? I know that its because the vehicle and language used to enforce an order falls under the same statute that collecting a unsatisfied tax assessment does. YOU are assuming that type of intricate nuance is common knowledge in the public domain more so than not as well believing it is the most important aspect of this article overall rather than simply one aspect in an ever growing pool of many in passing.

Sorry; Generalities and simplicities in the lede - details and nuances in the body of the analysis is the way that makes the most sense to me in spite of understanding the nuance in question personally. -- George Orwell III (talk) 02:31, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

If my fellow editors are amenable to this, I would suggest something like this approach as a possible solution. This might fall into line with the approach that editor George Orwell III has suggested. Thoughts, anyone? Famspear (talk) 00:49, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Grammatical and semantic errors in the lede

The lede currently says

"... ruling that the mandate was a tax and therefore fell under Congress' taxing authority "

This is wrong both grammatically and semantically. The current wording also gives the false impression that the purpose of the mandate is to raise money though the court accepted that it is not. It also uses a wrong tense (was instead of is). Congress' is wrongly spelling (because the extra s is pronounced). To correct these errors I would suggest it be edited by someone (not me) to say

"....ruling that the shared responsibility payment, though intended as a penalty to induce people to become insured rather than to raise revenue, should nevertheless be construed as tax, thus making it and the mandate constitutional under Congress's taxing authority."

Reasoning

a) the mandate is a requirement to have insurance or else pay a penalty- Its the penalty and not the mandate that is the tax.

b) the terms in the law for the payment is both "shared responsibility payment" and "penalty"

c) the Chief Justice, when designating this as a tax, states that "..none of this is to say that payment is not intended to induce the purchase of health insurance" - i.e. he is accepting the government position that the mandate is intended to induce people to buy insurance and not to raise money.

d) the key element of the decision is that the framing of the penalty is constitutional

e) the tense in the original is wrong... the mandate WAS is wrong. It should be IS (sounds like it was written by someone with wishful thinking)

f) the correct spelling is "Congress's" with the extra s shown (because it is pronounced with an extra s) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.223.105.147 (talk) 01:00, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Dear editor at IP 80.223.105.147: Not exactly.

First, the term "individual mandate" is not found anywhere in the Act itself. The term is a way that people have been using to describe certain provisions of the Act which are codified as Internal Revenue Code section 5000A. In some places, the term "individual mandate" is used to describe only the requirement to purchase insurance. In other places, the term is used to describe both the requirement to purchase insurance and the "shared responsibility payment," which is the section 5000A(b)(1) penalty (which, for constitutional purposes, of course, is treated as a tax, per the Court's ruling).

Just as many commentators have done over the two years, the Supreme Court used the term "individual mandate" in both ways in its decision on June 28, 2012. For example, on page 42 of the slip opinion, the Court concludes: "Upholding the individual mandate under the Taxing Clause thus does not recognize any new federal power. It determines that Congress has used an existing one."

Here, if the term "individual mandate" had been intended by the Court to apply only to the requirement to purchase insurance and not to the penalty imposed for failure to purchase that insurance as well, the Court's ruling would have made little or no sense. It is the PENALTY that is treated as a tax for constitutional law purposes. It is the PENALTY that the individual has to pay (if he or she does not purchase insurance). And it is the PENALTY (as well as the requirement to buy the insurance) that is referred to by the Court as the "individual mandate" in the text quoted above. Famspear (talk) 21:01, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

The court did not say that the mandate is a tax and neither should we. The mandate portion of the law is essentially two elements (1) a requirement to be insured (the MANDATE) and (2) a PENALTY (now deemed to be a tax for the purposes of establishing congress' powers) for non compliance. Nothing in what the Court said in that quote that can possibly lead us to believe that they are using the term "individual mandate" to mean both the mandate and the penalty. The Supreme Court did NOT diverge from standard English, and neither should Wikipedia. Frankly it smacks of politicking to say that the court regarded the mandate as a tax. Tt did not. It clearly makes plain that it is the PENALTY which is the tax. The text in the article must be amended to comply with Wikipedia standards of accuracy and normative use of English.80.223.105.147 (talk) 23:59, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Dear us IP 80.223.105.147. No, I think you're hung up on your own terminology. I understand the distinction that you're making. The problem for your argument is that you're the one making it. The Court used the term "mandate" in a different way. You may not like the Court's terminology, but that's not really important. Famspear (talk) 01:53, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

By the way, Wikipedia editors cannot impose their own views about "normative use of English" on Wikipedia articles in the sense in which I think you're proposing. Law, science, etc., are technical subjects, and sometimes words that you and I think should be used one way are used in technical subjects in ways that we might think are weird or incorrect. We're not here to impose our own views terminology on the U.S. Supreme Court, or on the sources that are reporting on this case. Famspear (talk) 01:55, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

If you understand the distinction then you have done a poor job in explaining yourself. At no time does the court say the mandate is a tax. It is the PENALTY under the MANDATE CLAUSE that constitutes a tax. SO we can say that the Mandate is valid under congress's taxing powers, or that the mandate has a tax for non-compliance, but we cannot say that the mandate is a tax because (a) the court did not say that and (b) it would be incorrect use of English. A mandate is an order or request to do something and a tax is money you have to pay to government to finance its needs. We cannot and must not confuse these two things. Its not true that the court "used the term mandate in a different way". If you think that, lets have the direct quote from the slip opinion where you think it does. A tax is a tax and a mandate is a mandate. They are separate things semantically, and the court reflect this difference as far as I can tell.80.223.105.147 (talk) 21:32, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Dear editor at 80.223.105.147: I think you are going around in circles. No, I have done a good job of explaining. And no, the Court does not need to physically use the phrase "the mandate is a tax". And no, using the term "mandate" in the way that the Court used the term is not an "incorrect use of English." A court of law is not bound by your beliefs, or my beliefs, about the correct use of the term "mandate."

Yes, in a sense, a mandate is an order, etc., and a tax is something that you have to pay. But we are not "confused," and we cannot impose the ordinary "sense" of these words on the United States Supreme Court. Courts of law use all kinds of terms in ways that may seem wrong to you or me. The quote I provided is from the text of the Court's published opinion. Famspear (talk) 22:40, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your exact quote was - of course exact quotes are OK - the current quote "must be construed as imposing a tax on those who do not have health insurance." is of course acceptable. But I really doubt they said "the mandate is a tax". It's like with an IRA account - if you withdraw your money early, there's a tax penalty. But being forced to keep your money in the IRA until retirement (to not get that penalty) is not generally described as a tax. Actions done to avoid a tax are not a tax; they are part of the impact of a tax. Wnt (talk) 23:38, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I find myself having to agree with the above. Whether or not I personally feel that it IS a tax, the nuance of the decision and the way we're wording it do not match, as per user Wnt above. I think it's understandable in the final analysis, and it's certainly the way some aspects of the media have run with it, but we don't have the luxury of dumbing down the nuance for the sake of expedience.204.65.34.31 (talk) 03:11, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Facts vs. Claims

In order to be factual and remain neutral, this article needs to differentiate between facts that we can all see with our own eyes and agree on, and claims which are nothing more than political selling points. This is an issue with the way the article's lede is written, and my attempts to correct it have met with stubborn resistance. Obviously, some discussion is needed to facilitate consensus.

To illustrate my point, I'll use an analogy. Let's say XYZ Company makes cars, and they are offering a new model. The FACTS about the car that we can all see are that it has 4 wheels, 4 doors, and a radio. No reasonable person would look at it and disagree. In its sales literature, the XYZ company CLAIMS the car will get 40 MPG, fully protects its occupants in a crash with a semi truck, and that its owners will enjoy a better sex life.

Now, while the car is sitting on the lot, all we can really know for certain are the facts. We won't know if claims are true until we've either purchased the car, or perhaps taken it for a test drive.

At this point in time, PPACA is still the car sitting on the dealer's lot. We bought it, but we haven't got it home yet. We don't know for sure what the actual fuel economy will be, nor have we had time to know if we're going to get laid more often.

So in order to have a factual and neutral article, we have to point out that the part about fuel economy and an improved sex life are only the claims being made in the sales literature. It is wrong to say that those statements are true just because somebody-or-other said so, regardless of who they are or where those opinions are published, or how many times.

Thus, when it comes to things that are necessarily in the future - i.e., deficit reduction or Medicare costs - the article needs to say that those are CLAIMS being made by PPACA's supporters. We should refrain from presenting those things as empirical facts. George Orwell III (talk) 20:19, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

The above is not my rant - an error in an above discusion made it seem like I signed it for the first time is all. -- George Orwell III (talk) 20:21, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

It's my rant. I borked-up something when I posted it and I couldn't see what it was, or thought perhaps there was a caching issue. Thanks for the repair! Belchfire (talk) 20:26, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

No problem. Still it seems like you're the type who gets caught by surprise out in the rain a lot. If you can't accept that - yes! there are indeed unfounded claims made by those with an agenda who are clueless as they come as well honest-to-God claims based on empirical evidence made by long recognized & well established people in their repsective fields of expertise, then I get the feeling when the weatherman says 90% chance of rain tommorrow you still somehow bank on the 10% left-open question when you get dressed that morning because he can't disprove the un-likelihood of rain well enough to your satisfaction the day before (hence, I get the feeling you get drenched a lot for no good reason:( -- George Orwell III (talk) 20:48, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Gee, that was cute. OK, I get that you let your politics get in the way of your honesty, but your comment doesn't approach the issue here. Belchfire (talk) 20:58, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

There is no issue here. Ever since Tricky Dick reformed the Executive branch's budget arm into what we know as the OMB today - resulting in a legislative response in the form of the Budget Control and Impoundments Act of 1974; with its creation of the CBO, the Budget Reconciliation process and things like the Byrd rule - the CBO scoring has always been the authority in such debates.

It served Reagan well allowing him to hike taxes a dozen times without leaving as much as a fingerprint against his conservative credentials by doing just that, willingly, even after securing dramatic cuts just a few years earlier. The same was true with Bush the 1st until he out-promised the triggers built into the Budget years before his re-election run even kicked off. Clinton seems to have stepped into the best 10 year budget plan ever; (scaring the c-rap out of everybody by somehow proving it actually works when followed). Bush2, however, didn't follow the plan and didn't allow the built-in triggers to do what they were suppose to do when the scoring changed over time & events (You never heard anything about Reagan's, papa Bush's or Clinton's tax policies expiring right? That's because by the end of 10 years of adjustments there was little left to actually fight over). In fact, he bucked the entire system more than just once or even twice by doubling down with an unfunded mandate in the middle of a "war" or two.

All the way up to today and irregardless of who is currently in office, the scoring from CBO has always been the rule & not the exception. I don't know why folks see it any differently unless they want to reinforce a double standard or something. Everybody knows a budget is only one fiscal year long and can't be accurately predicted more than half of the 10 year limit imposed by the BR process anyway so why make an issue out of it either way? Its as much as a fact as human perception can reasonably allow for. If the government waited for every little thing to fully pan out into factual history, we'd still be squabbling over grain embargoes and possibly speaking Panamanian by now. -- George Orwell III (talk) 21:30, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Good grief. Belchfire (talk) 15:05, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• Belchfire, you said the sources are being misrepresented. How so? And you added, "Supporters claim". Please explain how these 2 sources are demonstrative of being "Supporters". Somedifferentstuff (talk) 00:17, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Fine, don't call them supporters. That's an assumption on my part, based on the fact that the "supporters" are parroting liberal talking points. It seems like the logic choice of words, but I'm open to suggestions. The larger point is the distinction between claims and established empirical facts. Belchfire (talk) 15:05, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

You could write, "According to a report by "name of source", healthcare spending will be ......................" Somedifferentstuff (talk) 14:21, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you could have done that. And that sort of verbiage is probably appropriate, so long as the key fact is spelled out - that the information is just somebody's opinion, and is a prediction of what they think will happen in the future. Belchfire (talk) 20:05, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Please don't get sidetracked on politics or personal sniping. WP:WTA says to avoid saying "claim" as a general rule. We're not evaluating whether the claims are true or not - we're simply reviewing that A said this, B said that. What the article is actually reporting - that our sources said these things are true (or false) - should be clear from the sources. Wnt (talk) 23:31, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 2 July 2012

In the sub article "Term Obamacare" it says in the text *heath* instead of *health* somewhere. Please have that corrected, thank you.

178.82.254.7 (talk) 11:05, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Done. Somedifferentstuff (talk) 13:06, 2 July 2012 (UTC)