Talk:Three Kingdoms

Lead

The lead section should be slashed in half. I think it's safe to add it even now. --Jiang 19:26, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

population of China

Does anybody have any good (or any) sources for the population of china during the Three Kingdoms period? From the few sources I have, the population is reported to have decreased from around 56 million in the Eastern Han dynasty to around 16 million in the Western Jin dynasty. However this conflicts with the numbers listed in Population subsection of the Tripartite of China section (I don't think there's a big population increase from the Three Kingdoms to Western Jin).

I've just noticed this too. There's a huge discrepancy between the census figure of 56 million declining to 16 million as compared to the total population of the Three Kingdoms given as just 7 million! Especially considering the Han Dynasty article confirms that the Three Kingdoms encompassed the whole of China.

So it seems clear that either one set of figures or the other is very very wrong. I'm guessing the census figures are correct (the whole of China with a pop. of just 7 million???) but if someone could provide a full source for these figures - or indeed any other estimates on the page - it would be very useful, thanks. Until then, I think I am going to have to put citation tags on these figures. Gatoclass 12:25, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I guess the numbers are for civilians, not officers and militants, and did not count the population in Tuntian system. Chen Qun's estimation in 233-236 states that the population of the whole Wei Kingdom was only comparable to the population of a province in the Western Han. Qiu Songzhi's annotation of Sanguo Zhi noted that at the time of the surrender of Shu (263), Shu had a total of 940,000 civilians, 120,000 militants and 40,000 officers. When Wu surrendered to Wei, Wu had 2,300,000 civilians, 230,000 militants, and 32,000 officers. Simao Biao's Sequel of the Book of Han probably only counted the civilians, and gave a population of 5,372,891 at 263 for Wei and Shu combined. Du You's Tongdian summarized these records and set the population at 7,672,881, which is obvious incomplete. Besides, pretty much like native Americans, minor nomadic tribes did not count, in the Hukou system, so did those immigrants worked under the Tuntian system. The Book of Jin records a population of 16,163,863 at 280, probably included those in the Tuntian system. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skyfiler (talk • contribs) 16:04, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

prehap with the warring period, they would not allow for as detail a census as during the imperial Han period, for population whom were displaced to rural region were probably missing from the records. there is no point administrating when they got nothing left to tax anyway... :\ Akinkhoo (talk) 23:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The fall in recorded population reflects a decline in administrative effectiveness - the ability to count people - more than any real drop in population. Entenman (talk) 02:07, 1 October 2008 (UTC)entenman

That should be re-added in---it currently says that a significant drop in population is "beyond doubt", which to my hostile eyes, sounds like it was written by a very proud, very stubborn person. AndarielHalo (talk) 14:26, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Manpower figures

"In terms of manpower, the Wei was by far the largest, retaining more than 660,000 households and 4,400,000 people within its borders. Shu had a population of 1,940,000, and Wu 2,300,000. Thus, Wei had more than 58% of the population and around 40% of territory. With these resources, it is estimated that it could raise an army of 2,400,000 whilst Shu and Wu could manage 840,000 and 930,000. "

The figure used is questionable: 2,400,000 Soldiers from 4,400,000 people? 840,000 Soldiers from 1,940,000 people? 930,000 Soldiers from 2,300,000 people?

These are the correct figures from Sanguo Zhi. In times of war, usually the maximum population that can be drafted into the army is around 10%.

Wei, 660,000 Households, 4,400,000 People, possibly 440,000 soldiers can be drafted. When Shu surrendered, the record indicated 280,000 Households, 940,000 people, and 100,000 strong standing army. When Wu surrentdered some twenty years later, the record indicated 523,000 Households, 2,300,000 people, and a standing army of 230,000. --152.2.175.178 1:40, 7 April 2006

These are not my figures; these were figures that were previously given. You changed them without citing sources. Now that you've cited sources, go ahead and reinstate your changes if you so wish, and we'll let the community at large decide what to do with them. I'm no sociological historican. --Nlu (talk) 16:35, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

People need to realize that a decline in population is not always attributed to war. While it cannot be denied that alot of people were killed, to argue that the population decline was attributed strictly from incessant warfare is quite illogical. Depopulation could have also occured from inaccurate census taking or migrations. Alot of Chinese civilians could have migrated out of China.As for the census, considering that this was a time of constant warfare, the census takers were probably incompetent or a good portion of the population did a good job of avoiding registration for taxes. These are just plausible things to consider.

I must ask this question - Where there even a billion people in the world at this time? Sumerset {Sumerset|talk} 19:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

There are also many natural disasters that occured throughout the history which could contribute to the decline in population. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.138.58.201 (talk) 12:58, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Plagiarism

http://www.answers.com/topic/three-kingdoms

This article is almost completely copied-and-pasted from that site. They even borrowed the images.

No, it's the other way around. They got it from Wikipedia. Look at the bottom of their page. -- ran (talk) 00:31, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

Great. Now I feel stupid.

Don't... everyone misreads something now and then. And welcome to Wikipedia. ;) -- ran (talk) 23:30, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

Portraits from Koei games?"

I'm not too familiar with copyright and fair use rules, so could someone please clarify if I (or anyone else) could use an image of a character from the Koei historical figure the character portrays?

RealmKnight 00:51, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Response.

as long as the person cites the page there is no problem. to cite a page can be easy but it can be hard in easy terms all you have to do is example:let's say where it says picture there's a picture and all you have to say is picture taken from and you write the website

picture picture taken from Koei.com

Cec018

is it possible to take screenshots from the koei game?(win 95 game) i'm not too sure how to take screenshots & potraits though.

danz80

err shouldn't koei character be in koei rtk(game) article? there are much more historical drawing of said character for this historical article. i am confused; obsolete topic? Akinkhoo (talk) 23:05, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

As long as the person cites the page, I see nothing wrong. And, in my opinion, using koei art/pictures really shouldn't do any harm at all. Especially if we're talking about major figures of that period. I doubt that some people who have played the koei games would actually research about this history. But if they do, at least, with the game pictures, they will easily recognize who is who and give them a better look at each place or figure during this period. Educating the young with something they are familiar with seems like a good way to get them to learn anything at all. --SeijiX (talk) 19:28, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

You may not see anything wrong, but using a game's portrait to decorate a historical article does not fall within the definition of acceptable use of non-free content on Wikipedia. _dk (talk) 00:02, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Regarding 'The Way of Peace'

I thought it was 'The Essential Arts of Peace'? Or was that just something as portrayed by Luo Guanzhong?

---

i believe "the way of peace" is the translation for “太平道”, guess the Chinese for "The Essential Arts of Peace" is "太平要术"? if so, it was a book which Zhang Jiao claimed he obtain it from an immortal, said to be contained magical spells and things like. i forgot if it was fabricated by Luo ,or Zhang Jiao really boasted the book in history.

Start-end

The article says: "In a strict academic sense it refers to the period between the foundation of the Wei in 220 and the conquest of the Wu by the Jin Dynasty in 280."

Wouldn't the Three Kingdoms start in 222, when the third kingdom (Wu) was founded, and end when the first kingdom (Shu) ended, in 263? In 220-221 it was only two kingdoms, and after Shu's downfall it was only two kingdoms. Unless someone disagrees, I'm going to change it to 222-263. --Cao Wei 00:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The Three Kingdoms era is now generally accepted to be the periods of time in which at least one of the three titular kingdoms existed, rather than the time in which they coexisted. The period is marked from the creation of the first of the kingdoms (220) to the end of the last of the kingdoms (280). This was the opinion one of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms commentators offered (I believe Mao Zonggang, though I cannot confirm this.) So while I understand your point, I believe that the general consensus is that it covers the era from 220-280 - the start of the first kingdom to the fall of the last. Of course, if anybody can find evidence to suggest that it refers to 222-263 instead, I will gladly advocate the change. Benjitheijneb (talk) 22:01, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

References

This is a cracking article and the lack of citations really does let it down. Would editors familiar with the sources be prepared to improve it? --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 14:06, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree. With adequate citations, preferably but not necessarily to English-language sources, this article could easily be A- or even FA-class. PKKloeppel (talk) 14:35, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Three Kingdoms Era

anyone could answer a quick question. is Three Kingdoms Era should be the same meaning of Three Kingdoms? 66.7.131.163 (talk) 03:40, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Depends on if you are talking about the three kingdoms (Wei, Shu, and Wu) or the time that these states existed. Other than that they should be the same meaning. _dk (talk) 05:35, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

moved from "Talk: Three Kingdoms Era":

Three Kingdoms Era IS Three Kingdoms, used more than thousand years in Asia. Gzhao (talk) 05:45, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

The 3 Kindoms of China is called "Period" not "Era". Please stopy revert my redirect. KEIM (talk) 16:04, 17 June 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by KEIM (talk • contribs)

Era is used for long period of time in history. The Chinese 3 kingdoms lasted only a short time, while the 3 Kingdoms of Korea lasted for several centuries. Era is for Korea. KEIM (talk) 02:36, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

haha, "Era is for Korea"? Who said so? Do you have reliable sources? Don't publish original research! --蘇州宇文宙武 (talk) 00:42, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Cao Cao receiving Emperor Xian

I thought it was Mao Jie's recommendation, not Xun Yu. Any confirmations? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.210.239.194 (talk) 09:55, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Economic/Political causes of the war

Reading this article gives me very little feeling about the underlying causes of the wars. The article simply portrays powerful emperors vying for power, without giving us any idea why the people felt a need to give their loyalty to their leaders and follow them into war. It would be like portraying the U.S. Civil war as a power struggle between Lincoln and Jefferson Davis, without mentioning slavery or tariffs. There's one brief section that tells us that the boundaries of the three empires reflected genuine economic divisions, without giving even the slightest hint about what those divisions actually were. This kind of information is far more important in understanding an era than telling about what battles were fought and whom was overthrown by whom. —MiguelMunoz (talk) 16:59, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I partly agree with you but in my cynical way I believe it was a bunch of raw grabbing for power no matter how much the Emperors and generals invoked the Mandate of Heaven. There should be some reliable third party sources that discuss this but again cynically I'm sure you can find sources on both sides of the question. The kingdoms weren't participative democracies and if your senior family members or overlord told you to go fight, you did. It's like in the Roman Empire, the paterfamilias had the right of life and death over his sons and daughters and the sons' wives and children while the married daughters fell under the rule of the head of their husbands' households. On the other hand, read the Romance of Three Kingdoms. I'm pretty sure the mass desertions by the troops reflect that they were conscripts, not volunteers for the most part in other words that it's pretty true to nature. Further the boundaries shifted constantly as one general or another grabbed a particular city. That's the kind of thing you go to a reliable history book for, not an encyclopedia.

4.249.63.25 (talk) 14:22, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Even if that's all true (and I don't have any major quarrel with it), I still feel that the genuine economic divisions between the Kingdoms probably played an important role (and were probably a motive for the attempted power grabs) in the causes of the war, and the article should do a little more than mention them in passing. —MiguelMunoz (talk) 05:12, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Translation

I'm about to begin the requested translation from the Chinese version. The current English page is fairly well-developed: which sections in particular need the additional material from the Chinese page? EDIT: The current English page is actually a giant historical summary that is erratically and confusingly divided into headings and sub-headings. I'll translate Section 1 of the Chinese page now, then compare it with our current English page and see what the English page might have in terms of additional details. White whirlwind (talk) 21:37, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Excellent. I agree with your view of the English page. I hope the Chinese page also presents an intelligible section on the causes of the wars. —MiguelMunoz (talk) 11:04, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I've translated some parts of the population from zh-wiki. Others can have some checks of what I've translated.(User Aronlee90) 09:20, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

don't understand

"and the beginning of a break in the forthcoming 300 years of chaos." forthcoming means something that's about to occur. Was the Jin empire chaotic? If this is a reference to the Three Kingdoms period, the word should be "foregoing" or better yet "preceding." 4.249.63.25 (talk) 14:14, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The Jin Empire was indeed chaotic, with the War of the Eight Princes being fought in its early days and with the 16 Kingdoms existing as rivals to the empire. After the Jin Dynasty fell, the Southern and Northern Dynasties kept China in disunity until the succession of the Sui Dynasty, which finally saw the unification of China, almost exactly 300 years after the fall of Wu. You are quite right: this point is VERY unclear, and I agree that this information should be added in. However, I am not entirely well-acquainted with Chinese history outside of the Later Han-Three Kingdoms era, so I would suggest that someone with more knowledge than me provides some information. Benjitheijneb (talk) 22:12, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Attention Needed Tag

I have added the attention needed tag on account of the low number of sources (3) for this article. This isn't enough for something this important. I might be able to work on it in a few weeks from now, during Christmas vacation, but I also have a very long to do list that needs just as much attention. Sven Manguard _Talk 07:56, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

detailed map

Three Kingdoms map

zhwiki uses quite a flashy, detailed map at File:三国行政区划(繁).png which shows regions, cities and significant events; would it be reasonable to create a translation and use it within this article? I'm thinking that it would be better if we had such a map at the beginning of the article. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 10:35, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Sinocentrism (China-centrism) and potential anti-British-Isles bias?

The problem with the "cursory search" reasoning is that there are simply far more "Chinamen"/Chinese who can read and write English, than the population of England (England and Wales), Scotland and Ireland combined. The usage is definitely completely different here on the British Isles and in Europe. Does the peculiar usage within certain parts of the English-speaking World give precedence over the usage of the language as a whole, including as a lingua franca? -- KC9TV 03:38, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

-- KC9TV 04:34, 15 October 2012 (UTC)