Talk:Charlemagne

Dates Appear to Be centeries out

King Charlemagne (Karl Die Groete, son of King Pepin) reined sometime during the 1500's as far as I know. I know for a fact his now day descendants are about 14-16 generations down the line. Taking into consideration the dates which have been suggested by this article, that makes the average age gap between generations about 76 years, which is practically IMPOSSIBLE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.184.91 (talk) 16:29, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

You might be confusing Charlemagne with Charles V, the Holy Roman Emperor in the 1500s. Charlemagne, the subject of this article, definitely lived much earlier. Rob Burbidge (talk) 20:22, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

You also have the number of generations incorrect. I just counted one line, name by name, and got 40 generations, which gives something more like 30 years, a typical average given that it would involve younger children, late second marriages, etc. Agricolae (talk) 13:57, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Introduction

I have reworded the introduction of the article. Previously I felt the introduction felt as through many authors had written it (which is in all likelihood true). This gave the introduction a very disunited feeling, with many "voices" speaking at one time. My goal with rewriting the introduction to give it the feeling of a singular prose essay, providing a general chronological outline of his life. I also expanded his infobox by adding a section detailing each of the three major offices he held during his life (Frankish King, Italian King, and Emperor). This pattern of addressing each office individually is consistent with other royal and political figures (Queen Victoria and Barack Obama as examples).

The infoxbox addressing his information as Christian Saint I moved to the section of the article addressing his canonization in order to cut down on the clutter associated with the introduction.

I hope these changes help the article's overall flow. - Rougher07 (talk) 19:40, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Why do you want to call him "founder of the Carolingian Empire" in the lede? I think it is wrong to call him the founder of the Carolingian empire. What were Charles Martel, Pepin the Short and a couple of Carlomans doing if not forming the same empire? It would be better to specify his actual titles: King of the Franks from 768, King of the Lombards from 774 and Emperor of the Romans from 800. Srnec (talk) 00:45, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Of the three individuals you identified (Charles Martel, Pepin the Short, and Charlemagne), only Charlemagne would appear to be the "founder" of the Carolingian Empire. It is important to note that my references to the "Carolingian Empire" is merely a modern construct. The Carolingian dynasty would have known their realm simply as "Francia". I use "Carolingian Empire" to distinguish this period of the Frankish realm from its pre-Carolingian period.

Charles Martel, while the founder of the Carolingian dynasty of Western European rulers, never ruled the Frankish Kingdom outright: he was the most powerful figure in Francia but was still (at least nominally) subservient to the Merovingian dynasty of Frankish kings. Given that he never obtained a "royal" status, he fails to meet the basic threshold for consideration as the "founder" of the Empire.

Pepin the Short was the first Carolingian to actually rule Francia in him own name. His overthrow of Childeric III, the last Merovingian king, in 952. While Pepin did campaign in Lombard-controlled Italy, he never annexed it officially. He did campaign in Septimania along the kingdom's southern border, but its annexation was only completed by Charlemagee. Similarly, Pepin spent a considerable period of his reign focused on the Duchy of Aquitaine. During his reign, however, the Duchy was never annexed into direct Frankish rule. This was only accomplished (under Charlemagne) in 769. While Pepin laid the groundwork for the Carolingian Empire, his claim as "founder" is better than his father Charles but this claim is still weak in my mind.

Charlemagne is the best candidate to be the "founder" of the Empire. Charlemagne expanded the Frankish realm's borders further than any other of the Carolingians, and this is especially significant for Lombard Italy. When he deposed the Lombard King Desiderius in 774, Charlemagne ruled both Italy and Francia as a personal union. This is evidenced by him holding the title "King of the Franks AND of the Lombards" (emphasis added). These were two otherwise separate polities. Charlemagne's coronation as Emperor in 800, however, officially unified all the territories under his control into a single political entity: the entity modern historians know as the Carolingian Empire.

I am leaving out the two Carolmans. Caroloman the Elder, son of Charles Martel and brother of Pepin the Short, was, like his father, a "royal" figure as he never ruled Francia outright but as a court official. Also, in 747, he with drew from public life (five year before Pepin would begin his reign). Carloman the Younger, the son of Pepin and brother of Charlemagne, was co-king with his brother but only ruled for three years, and spent most of that reign in competition with Charlemagne.

Perhaps the best analogy I can give it this: Julius Caesar played a critical part in the formation of the Roman Empire but never ruled over that entity as modern historians understand it. Caesar, instead, ruled over the Roman Republic. Instead, Augustus was the one who founded the Roman state we know as the Empire. If you will, Charles Martel, Pepin the Short, Carloman the Elder, and Carloman the Younger all play a similar role for Charlemagne as Caesar did for Augustus. I hope this helps. - Rougher07 (talk) 22:27, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I am aware, but this is all original research. You'll need sources. But would it not be better just to say that he ruled Francia from 768 and was crowned emperor in 800, like the longstanding version? Srnec (talk) 05:24, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

If you view the article for the Carolingian Empire itself, the article has made reference to the Empire's founding in 800 under Charlemange since "July 18, 2002". While I concede this could be a mistake, the Wikipeida community's has apparently accepted the idea of the Empire's founding in 800 for over a decade. This would appear to me to be sufficient evidence for naming Charlemagne as the "founder" of the Empire on the article dedicated to him. - Rougher07 (talk) 07:21, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Which Carloman?

Could someone please clarify: "In 753 Pope Stephen II fled from Italy to Francia appealing for assistance pro iustitiis sancti Petri ("for the rights of St. Peter") to Pepin. He was supported in this appeal by Carloman, Charles' brother." If this is Charlemagne's brother, they are very young in 753. The article for Charles Martel gives his brother as Childebrand. Thank you. Mannanan51 (talk) 23:57, 25 August 2012 (UTC)Mannanan51

Karl der Große

It really seems to hurt you damn lot to include his German name (Karl der Große) included in the introduction! This would not matter if you'd keep his name(s) and titles in English, because this is the English language Wikipedia, but as soon as you start mentioning versions of the name(s) in other languages you must mention all of them since all of them are relevant!

Karl der Große has NEVER been "King of France", as this article implies, nor has he been King of Francia or Franconia! He became FIRST King of Austrasia (Austrien/Austrasien) then, after the abdication and death of Karlmann, he became the King of Neustrien too, and has therefore been King of the Francs, a GERMANNIC tribe! He didn't even speak Old French! He spoke Old High German, like it or not! This article is biased and just another proof of the English Wikipedia being highly anit-German! All Wikipedia articles, even in English, must have a neutral point of view (NPOV policy), if you've ever heard of this, that is!? --82.113.122.166 (talk) 19:48, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Frankly, :-) I don't see your point. AFAIK Karl is known as Charlemagne in English, maybe as a consequence of the influence the Norman conquest had on the English language. I guess the same applies to Louis the German (Ludwig der Deutsche). However, one could probably dispense with the French pronunciation in the introduction.Drow69 (talk) 10:42, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

This is from german wiki: "Karl der Große, auch Karl der Erste genannt, lateinisch Carolus Magnus bzw. Karolus Magnus, französisch und englisch Charlemagne". They mention his common names in german, latin, english and french. And of course, his original name was´nt Charlemagne... Why is it not accepted to mention his german name, which is the one he probably used himself: Karl? What is your problem guys?

I totally agree with you. The fact that he was German means that his name should be listed here. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 14:06, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

He wasn't German. Srnec (talk) 07:12, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

He was.--Kürbis (✔) 09:38, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

There were neither Germany nor France (as nations) at that time. Karl was Frankish. The Franks were a germanic tribe (or people). They and other tribes, mixed with Slaves, Celts and others, became Germans. Between 850 - 1000 Frankish Kingdoms became France and Germany.(and other states). Karl spoke Frankish, which was a germanic language. The Franks were a kind of "proto germans", but it doesn´t make any sense to claim he is "german" or not. And of course, this kind of chauvinist thinking ignores Karl´s importance for both France and Germany and Europe at all.ManfredV (talk) 12:09, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

That's correct because Germany and France are STATES, not NATIONS. Nations are peoples - the nations are the French and the Germans. The Germans were established as a nation during the Roman Empire. The Franks were a German tribe that moved into Gaul and fused with the Gallic peoples there [Romano Gauls (Celts)]. When referring to Charlemagne, it's best just to refer to him as a Frank.HammerFilmFan (talk) 17:50, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree, but there is another consideration. That Charlemagne’s name in German was Karl de Große is not the issue. But by omitting it as an a.k.a. we are introducing bias into the article. It’s taking a side in the longstanding question of were the Franks German or French. The question itself is not important to the article. And he was and is also known as Karl de Große as well as Charlemagne. So by removing that name in German would create an issue with NPOV. 95.211.27.99 (talk) 21:42, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Fifty Years?

If he was crowned emperor in 800, and died in 814, why does it say in the lede that he "ruled as Emperor for almost fifty years"? Rojomoke (talk) 12:35, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Quote in "Aquitanian rebellion" section.

There's a quote there which reads:

"In those times, to build a kingdom from an aggregation of small states was itself no great difficulty .... But to keep the state intact after it had been formed was a colossal task .... Each of the minor states ... had its little sovereign ... who ... gave himself chiefly to ... plotting, pillaging and fighting."

I find all those ellipses very confounding. particularly the way that 'who' is stuck out there like that. May I suggest a fuller quote with less edited out? --bodnotbod (talk) 13:59, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Borders are lines not points.

"The border with Aquitania was Toulouse." Toulouse was and is a city. It was I believe the capital of Aquitania, as it was of the Gothic Kingdom of Toulouse. I don't know the Southern borders during Charlemagne's time; they may have been along the Garonne. Nitpyck (talk) 22:41, 12 January 2013 (UTC)