Talk:Sega Genesis

Sega Mega-CD?

For what it's worth, I'd like to voice my disagreement with the US-centric title of the article. As has been mentioned before:

• To say the console is "also known as Sega Mega Drive" is simply backwards when regarding the history of the console

• So because the US is the single largest English-speaking country, they take precedent over the many other countries where English is spoken, regardless of appropriateness? Two small examples: Suede are a well-known British band who had to be renamed as The London Suede in the US, and Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone had to be amended to "Sorcerer's Stone" in the US. Following the above line of logic, those articles should be renamed for the US' benefit. Ridiculous.

I know the (obviously untrue) stereotype is that Americans don't have a world view, but this is impressively unilateral.

Which brings up another point: since the Mega-CD was renamed Sega CD for the sole benefit of the US, should that article be renamed too?

46.65.72.132 (talk) 23:57, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

It's not only that the US is larger, but that the userbase in the US (and Canada) is much larger than other English territories, on TOP of the fact that its origin is from a non-English speaking country. Note that Suede and Harry Potter are British in origin, so the comparison doesn't apply, even beyond the fact that in both cases the original title is likely better known. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 02:51, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

"the userbase in the US (and Canada) is much larger than other English territories" – are there any numbers to back this up? Sorry for the pedantry, but I'd be genuinely interested to see how significant the difference is to weigh more importance to primarily one country over several others. Edit: Numbers found in original article – I'll concede this point.

"its origin is from a non-English speaking country" – but the origin name is with English words. Where it comes from shouldn't matter in this case. If the original name was in kanji characters, then it'd be different.

"Note that Suede and Harry Potter are British in origin, so the comparison doesn't apply" – please explain why? In all cases, a title has been renamed for the US market. Final Fantasy VI was renamed in the US as "Final Fantasy III", so why not retitle the article for VI as "Final Fantasy III", with a section nothing that it's "also known as Final Fantasy VI" for the vastly smaller non-US userbase? I'm being slightly facetious, but I hope you can see the point that's being made. 46.65.72.132 (talk) 04:11, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

FFVI is an even worse example as it HAS been released in the US as FFVI, multiple times even. On the other hand, we have articles under both the Dragon Quest and Dragon Warrior names depending on if the game got released in the US under the DQ name or only under the DW name. As for 'English speaking words', that's pretty irrelevant given the large number of Japanese games that use them. We don't have an article at, for instance, Phantom Kingdom, it's at Makai Kingdom: Chronicles of the Sacred Tome. Stunt Race FX, not Wild Trax. Etc. etc. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 05:16, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

/facepalm ... OK, OK, if we need to be pedantic about it ... FFIV? That was released as FFII in the states, not sure if it got rereleased under its proper name since. Talking theoretically, what happens to the ones which never got a release at all, until much more recently? If we rename things retroactively, then a/ what would they then be called in a putative wikipedia where said retconning releases never happened (or had yet to happen), b/ if for some reason another version of the Genesis gets released in the US and is then itself called a Mega Drive, can this article be renamed and have the lede switched around? Cuz, yknow, there's a need for consistency... 193.63.174.211 (talk) 11:08, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes of course Final Fantasy IV has gotten US releases under that name. As for later renames, I think my post above shows what would happen -- the example I gave of Dragon Warrior VII is perfect, as it recently got a 3DS remake, and if that comes out in English the article should be changed to reflect the new name. If your theoretical example happened, then I imagine this article would also change, but it's not as if Sega just released the console and gave up on it -- to this day Sega uses the names (they sell collections called "Sega Genesis & Megadrive Classics", for example -- note which name is first). ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 13:34, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

You still haven't explained why Suede and Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone shouldn't be retitled, following the above logic. (I'll gladly accept any corrections to the following since your knowledge on the subject is obviously greater than mine) Even though Makai Kingdom: Chronicles of the Sacred Tome and Stunt Race FX weren't the original titles, only one country had the original title; so it makes sense for those articles not to use the Japanese title for the English-language Wikipedia, even if they're not the original titles. But for the Mega Drive article, it's the other way around: only in two countries was it known as Genesis – all other English-speaking countries kept the original name. If population is the overriding factor, why not rename this the North American Wikipedia?

The original point I was making was: if we're titling articles for the US' benefit (despite the rest of the world having a different name), shouldn't Sega Mega-CD and Sega_Multi-Mega be renamed Sega CD and Sega CDX?46.65.72.132 (talk) 11:27, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I already mentioned the fact that Harry Potter, for instance, not only originated in an English speaking country, but more people likely know it by its original name. This is simply not true with the Genesis. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 14:37, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

"not only originated in an English speaking country" – once again, what's the specific point you're trying to make with this statement? The country's origin language doesn't affect the Mega Drive's product name in this case.

"more people likely know it by its original name" – Yes, only in two countries are the names "Genesis" and "Sorcerer's Stone" used. In every other country on the planet, they're known as "Mega Drive" and "Philosopher's Stone". So following your line of logic, more people likely know "Genesis" by its original name of "Mega Drive".

"This is simply not true with the Genesis" – How can fewer people be aware of "Mega Drive" than "Philosopher's Stone", considering the above? 46.65.72.132 (talk) 14:55, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

This is not a matter of two countries v. rest of world. The Genesis/MegaDrive wasn't sold in many countries. In many countries where it was sold, very few people bought it. More consoles were sold as Genesis than MegaDrive, so that hurts your argument as well. Furthermore, in many countries in most countries where it was sold as Mega Drive, English isn't their first language. So basically, there is no argument for this to be Mega Drive based on the number of reliable sources, the number of consumers that bought the consoles, or on usage in the English speaking world. Add to that the WP rules clearly state that this article should be Genesis as that was the original name and it meets naming criteria otherwise, this is a slam dunk.LedRush (talk) 19:33, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

"This is not a matter of two countries v. rest of world" – yes and no. This isn't an anti-US and Canada argument, but the change to Genesis is solely for the benefit of those two countries.

"More consoles were sold as Genesis than MegaDrive" – indisputable, yes. But this brings me back to my repeated point which anyone has yet to counter: if population/ exposure is a deciding factor in titling articles, why isn't Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone retitled "Sorcerer's Stone", since more people (America) know the film by that name? This also applies to Mega-CD and Sega 32X.

"Furthermore, in many countries in most countries where it was sold as Mega Drive, English isn't their first language" – once again, the (original) name of the actual product itself is in English. The product name isn't and wasn't changed to match the local language to each country. In this case, the country of origin doesn't and shouldn't matter if the product name itself is in English.

"this article should be Genesis as that was the original name" – Wrong. Genesis was the first name given to the product in an English-speaking country, after it was changed from Mega Drive before release due to legal problems. There's a distinction between the two.

"this is a slam dunk" – that this discussion is taking place clearly shows it's not a 'slam dunk'. 46.65.72.132 (talk) 00:03, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I think your "repeated point which anyone has yet to counter" is addressed by the FAQ itself, and one of the reasons that the article's name is Genesis: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone was the name of the work when it was first used in an English-speaking country. So, in other words, the very reason that the article is at "Philosopher's Stone" instead of "Sorcerer's Stone" backs up one of the reasons why this article is at Genesis. Thanks for agreeing on that rationale for the name. Now, as to the name in Japanese being rendered into English, Japanese is loaded with "loan words" from other languages, just as English is, so just because the loan words originally came from English does not mean the name is English. Since we're rehashing the same arguments over and over, I think it is time for you to put down the stick. --McDoobAU93 01:01, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Even with an unnecessarily sarcastic comment and your incorrect claim that the name was "Japanese rendered into English" (the Japanese console and game boxes, and the article itself confirm it's actually the other way around and the product name is actually English), I take your point. 46.65.72.132 (talk) 02:27, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

And, in case I didn't state it before, Mega-CD is where it is because all the sister articles of the Mega Drive were changed over automatically, the first time Sega Genesis became Mega Drive. I believe all their original names are at Sega CD, Sega CDX, etc. (If I recall. It has been a little while since I read through all the archives.)--SexyKick 04:34, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, they should. As Sega 32X is also named in conjunction with that naming scheme. In fact, the only reason the Sega Mega-CD article is at the name it's currently at (according to what I can find in archives) is because of this article having its name changed in the past.--SexyKick 13:22, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

How does Sega 32X follow the naming convention? In the US, it was called the "Genesis 32X". As far as I'm aware it was never simply titled "32X" – the article itself explains there was always a prefix to "32X" in the product name; whether it was "Genesis", "Mega Drive", "Super" etc. With no single overriding product name, it's understandable for the article title to be simplified to Sega 32X (as it's known informally). 46.65.72.132 (talk) 14:19, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

46.65 said :"The country's origin language doesn't affect the Mega Drive's product name in this case."

That's correct. According to Wikipedia policy subjects that are inherently "British" or inherently "American" should be described with that language. That is why Harry Potter must use the British language variant. That policy does not apply to this article, because the console is from Japan, where English is not the major language.

Any argument that involves a comparison to Harry Potter (or Suede) is invalid here, because that policy does not apply to this article. APL (talk) 18:50, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm worried that this precedent - using the name that "most people" or "the biggest userbase" will find recognisable - enforces an institutional North American bias by default; the US and Canada have much larger populations than other English-speaking countries. Unless it bombs in North America, the original name of a globally-released product can almost never win this argument. CNash (talk) 22:10, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

The primary argument for "Genesis" is that the Genesis name was used first on Wikipedia. (There was an article split then a merger, so the history is a little difficult to track.) This is the proper way to settle these issues according to policy.

The reason that counting the "units sold" keeps coming up is that many editors who want "megadrive" keep trying the argument "Two countries verses lots of countries!". Counting total units sold illustrates that the counting nations argument is illogical.

Either way, Wikipedia policy doesn't support either counting countries, or counting users, so those two points are really a side argument. (Unless it could be shown that one name was virtually unused, which is clearly not the case.) APL (talk) 23:27, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Good point. The inspiration for #15 (and #14) in the FAQ. Thanks. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:39, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

You're incorrect, that is not the primary reason. That reason is ONLY designed as a tie breaker, if no consensus can be reached. What most people seem to want to know is WHY a consensus couldn't be reached. What reason is there to support Genesis? As you said the counting sales reason is invalid, so what is left? The original name is the only thing with a reason behind it, that's what the people who made it called it! <Karlww _{(contribs|talk)} 11:21, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

The reliable resources, number of users using the name, the original name in English, the primary naming criteria, etc...basically what the FAQ says.LedRush (talk) 13:35, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Point 15 in the FAQ

I don't want to rile anyone up, I've done that enough in the past, but why does the fact that 'Sega Genesis' was the original title of the article have any bearing on what the title should be now? Point 15 is saying this is the main reason the article is titled thus, but this makes no logical sense as the original title can easily be wrong. If you're going by the 'originality' logic, surely that means that Mega Drive, as the 'original' title of the console (as invented by the Japanese and then released in that region) should be the title of this article? Like I said, I'm not trying to start an argument, it just seems illogical to me. Andre666 (talk) 19:35, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Oh, perhaps that should be made clearer.

Basically, if we treat this purely as an issue with English variations, then the three ways to resolve the issue are (in this order) Commonality, nationality, "Retain"

-There's no hope of commonality without going to absurd names like "Fourth generation game console from Sega".

-The item's nationality is Japan, which is not an English speaking nation.

-WP:RETAIN says "When no English variety has been established and discussion cannot resolve the issue, the variety used in the first non-stub revision is considered the default"

Basically, this rule is an (only partially successful) attempt to stop people from wasting time arguing the matter in situations like this one, where neither option is better than the other. APL (talk) 20:12, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Incidentally, the manual of style also makes it clear that once a variation is decided upon, it's to be used through the whole article, so our friend User:82.41.107.134 is committing a confusing-to-readers error when he tries to change certain mentions to "Mega-Drive". APL (talk) 20:12, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I understand his frustration though, but thanks for explaining it all above, makes sense I suppose as we'll never reach a truly accepted conclusion! Thanks for replying :) Andre666 (talk) 20:21, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

WP:ENGVAR/WP:RETAIN only applies to the variety of English language used, not to differentiate between two English language names of something. This and so many others appear to attempts by people to deliberately misinterpret WP policies to bolster the case for Genesis. <Karlww _{(contribs|talk)} 07:39, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Basically, the point of issue of the original title is that it's just one extra point in Genesis's favor -- in fact were Mega Drive the original title on WP it probably would have been enough to put it in MD's favor. Because both titles are equally valid, it's kind of used as a 'tiebreaker' (see, for instance, color vs. orange (colour). ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 22:10, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times; instead or arguing this tired, boring and completely resolved point over and over again why don't users like Andre666 (talk) use their time and energy to improve the quality of this article? Mike _talk 01:28, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Hello, "Mike". I don't care too much for this point. This is a talk page, for people to discuss things they'd like changed to the article. If YOU don't like it, then YOU don't have to join in. I'm trying to be nice, I'm following the rules, so back off and let me discuss things I want to discuss. We are told off for reverting, fair enough, but now we're being told off for doing exactly what we're told to do?! Can't win. Andre666 (talk) 13:51, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Mike, if this were someone piping up with an argument that's already covered both in the faq and a million times in the talk archive, I'd totally agree with you.

However, it seems rude to criticize someone who was just asking for clarification of one of the points the FAQ makes.

After all, a clear understanding of what has been said before is important for preventing the time-wasting discussions you mention. APL (talk) 14:45, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you APL, except that Andre's argument IS already address in the FAQ. See 3rd paragraph of #1. See also the new #16. I suppose we can expand on the point made in that 3rd paragraph of #1. --B2C 16:55, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Proposed tweak to the memory map info

OK, I woulda already done this myself if it wasn't locked ... need someone with sufficient access to give it a go.

The current description of it is a bit confusing because of potential confusion over megabits vs megabytes and the like, and how it looks like the memory map size may be getting confused with the cartridge one (at first I thought that might actually be what was stated, until I realised that 16Mbit =/= 4Mbyte). At least, that was the case for me. Maybe I'm just being thick.

Basically all I was going to do was make it more explicit what was what. So, e.g:

"The console's memory map spans the 68000's entire 16 Megabyte address space, from the 4MB reserved for ROM cartridges at the "bottom" of the map (#0000.0000 - #0040.0000, or 0MB - 4MB), to the 64KB of main program RAM at the "top" (#00FF.0000 - #00FF.FFFF, or 15.94 ~ 16.00MB), with other areas reserved for VRAM, boot ROM, etc."

Plus maybe something about space not reserved in the default map being usable by add-ons that use the system bus edge connector, such as the Sega CD? I presume that's the case anyway. Not written it in there as it's not something I know for definite, and particularly if it's the case I don't know what the ranges are, but it would be a fairly normal way of doing things. There's enough space, indeed, that all the memory in the 32X and Sega CD could be mapped in as directly accessible RAM and ROM (between, say, 4MByte and 5MByte, maybe 4.5 - 6.0MB if my maths proves to be a bit off...), and still leave plenty of room for memory-mapped IO to interface with the additional chips and the CD drive... 193.63.174.211 (talk) 11:03, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Title does not meet policy

WP:CRITERIA states an article title should have consistency. No other gaming console article I can find includes the name of the manufacturer unless it is part of the console's name, therefore a change seems to be in order. The only alternatives I can think of are 'Genesis' and 'Mega Drive'. You only have to look again at WP:CRITERIA and the Genesis disambig page to see that 'Genesis' is not suitable. 'Mega Drive' has no issues that I can see, as it meets all policy requirements. Any objections? <Karlww _{(contribs|talk)} 11:52, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Genesis is already taken. Genesis (video game console) isn't an improvement over Sega Genesis. And people do call it the Sega Genesis. Same reason we have Sega Saturn instead of calling it Saturn or Saturn (video game system). Dream Focus 15:00, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

I believe Sega Saturn actually has Sega as part of the official name. We don't however title the articles Sega Dreamcast, Sony Playstation etc even though people also call them by those names. Why the exception here? <Karlww _{(contribs|talk)} 16:54, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME rears its head here, which states "When there is no single obvious term that is obviously the most frequently used for the topic, as used by a significant majority of reliable English language sources, editors should reach a consensus as to which title is best by considering the criteria listed above." One thing (and about the only thing) that all the battling editors here do agree on is that the console title should be "Sega xxxxx" Chaheel Riens (talk) 17:09, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Not sure why you bring up WP:COMMONNAME, it can't possibly apply to titles which don't meet the basic criteria for a page title. "Sega xxx" fails the consistency test. If you are saying console manufacturers should always be included in the title then we have a lot of articles to rename. I note that in essence this decision has already been made. <Karlww _{(contribs|talk)} 18:45, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

I bring it up because - as has been discussed many, many many times over the last few years - the one thing that everybody here is happy with is including "Sega" in the title, regardless of what else it may contain. Even the bastardised "Sega Mega Drive/Sega Genesis" contained the term - twice no less.

I don't see anywhere that I'm "saying console manufacturers should always be included in the title" - I'm quite obviously referring only to this article in my discussion and saying that there is nothing wrong with the title "Sega Genesis" Or "Sega Megadrive" - but that's an argument I'm not going to poke (again). Chaheel Riens (talk) 19:37, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

I believe this is covered in the backlogs somewhere. It is mostly referred to in sources as "Sega Genesis" where Mega Drive was mostly referred to as "Mega Drive". Since it's not the only Sega system to do this, it's not a big deviation--SexyKick 21:12, 18 May 2013 (UTC).

And today i stopped believing in the AMERICAN WIKIPEDIA. Congratulations, you lost a non-english reader with your US-centrism. 177.177.207.58 (talk) 00:28, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

There's no such thing as the American Wikipedia, so your loss of faith should be a good thing. Try adding in "Sorcerer" to any Harry Potter article, or changing "tyre" to "tire" in the Mclaren F1, or Bugatti Veyron article. See how quickly you get shot down as a Decadent Yankee Overlord™. Chaheel Riens (talk) 08:24, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Choosing which rules apply and which don't simply so you can title an article using a name only known in North America is pretty much the definition of an American Wikipedia. <Karlww _{(contribs|talk)} 11:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Let's get some things clear. Is your argument to remove the term "Sega" from the article "Sega Genesis" and leave it as "Genesis" - with a necessary suffix, such as "Genesis (video game console)", or are you saying that once we remove "Sega" from "Sega Genesis" the article name "Genesis" would be no longer appropriate, so you wish it to be renamed to "Mega Drive"?

Please also clarify why you think the article name "Genesis (video game console)" or similar is "not suitable"? I can see no reason why this would be the case. If you manage to convince me that the term "Sega" should be removed, (which you have not yet - but I am willing to listen to your arguments,) I will support you in your effort to rename to "Genesis (video game console)", much in the same way I was convinced to change my preference from "Mega Drive" to "Sega Genesis".

So far I have seen no argument (convincing or not) that we should follow the renaming logic of "Sega Genesis" -> "Genesis" (unsuitable, ergo an alternative must be sought) -> "Mega Drive"

I have no preference based on geographical location. My decisions are based on the intelligence and how the arguments are presented - so please - convince me as I'm listening. Chaheel Riens (talk) 12:05, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

It's not about following a chain from Sega Genesis to Genesis to Mega Drive, it's about choosing the most suitable from the myriad options. Sega should not be in the title because I see no evidence that it is part of the official name, sure it is often referred to as Sega Genesis, but many other systems such as the Playstation often have the manufacturer included when referred to in media.

It is true that the same has happened to the Saturn with Sega added to the front, but that is a concession, there is no 'good' alternative (other than "Saturn (gaming system)" or similar, which is equally unpleasant imo).

The same is not true here, there are several potential titles: "Genesis" fails on precision, "Sega Genesis" fails on consistency, "Genesis (blah blah)" fails on conciseness. Sure many (most?) articles on WP have to make some kind of concession, giving up one of the ideals, but we don't have to here because the only failure of "Mega Drive" is that the majority of editors are from North America. <Karlww _{(contribs|talk)} 13:28, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I think that based on your arguments, "Genesis (video game console)" is the best of the lot. It may not be the most consise, but it is the most descriptive and accurate. Fortunately, WP:CRITERIA takes this into account with:

• Recognizability – The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject will recognize.
• Naturalness – The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles. Such titles usually convey what the subject is actually called in English.
• Precision – The title is sufficiently precise to unambiguously identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects.
• Conciseness – The title is no longer than necessary to identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects.

Ok, so it falls down somewhat on the last point of consistency, but luckily for us criteria takes this into account as well:

• It may be necessary to favor one or more of these goals over the others. This is done by consensus.

And really, whether you like it or not, the Yankee American Decadent Capitalist Western Pig Dogs still have the consensus - and with this latest challenge a welcome exception, they are far more polite, restrained, and intelligent in their arguments. (Which is one of the reasons I personally favo(u)r "Genesis", as I refuse to be associated with the "Genesis suks man, rename to Meggadrive coz i dont know genesus and you yanks think you own the wurld" mentality.) Chaheel Riens (talk) 15:46, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I still feel Mega Drive has no pitfalls/therefore no reason to favour one goal over the others, but I agree the consensus will never agree. I don't mind so much if it stays with Genesis, what I can't stand is when people pretend the reason is anything other than the 'Murican majority. <Karlww _{(contribs|talk)} 17:02, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I have a few comments regarding some of the statements above.

First, the "official" name of the topic is unimportant. What matters most in terms of deciding WP titles is what is used most commonly to refer to the topic in reliable sources - this is the essence of WP:COMMONNAME (and also the recognizability and naturalness WP:CRITERIA). A proposal to move to Genesis (video game console) needs to be supported with evidence that this topic is referred to as "Genesis" more often than as "Sega Genesis" in reliable sources. I have not seen such evidence.

Second, "Genesis (blah blah)" does not fail on conciseness. WP:CRITERIA such as conciseness mostly applies to the part of the title that does not include parenthetic disambiguation. If the most common name is "Genesis", then that's the concise name we use, then we disambiguate that per WP:D.

Third, the primary reason this title was restored to Sega Genesis has little if anything to do with "'Murican majority", and everything to do with that being the original title of this article. Restoring the original title is a common way to settle disputes about which of two reasonable titles to use, and that was a significant factor in this case. See FAQ #1. --B2C 17:29, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

This was in fact brought up by KieferSkunk during one of the previous move discussion.

"Comment: As it turns out, I can't find anything that definitively backs up my earlier comment that the North American name is just "Genesis" and not "Sega Genesis" - most of our official sources use the latter name and only shorten it to "Genesis" afterwards, just like they tend to shorten the full name of NES to the acronym after its first use. Even Nintendo's Virtual Console service, which offers Genesis games in North America, uses the title "Sega Genesis"."

It would have been crazy for all the amount of information we covered in those naming to discussions for this to have not been addressed before, and it has, and was concluded on. So Sega Mega-CD, Sega 32X, Sega Saturn, and Sega Genesis.--SexyKick 11:18, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Factual Error in opening sentence "Japan and PAL"

The sentence:

"The Sega Genesis, known as the Mega Drive (メガドライブ Mega Doraibu?) in Japan and PAL territories"

should really read something more like:

"The Sega Genesis, known as the Mega Drive (メガドライブ Mega Doraibu?) outside of North America"

Which sounds kind of backwards to me given the original and most widely used name is Mega Drive, it seems to me it would make more sense for it to be worded:

"The Sega Mega Drive (メガドライブ Mega Doraibu?), known as the Genesis in North America"

I should stress this isn't intended as a debate regarding the article title, it's simply the fact that the information as it is misleading and awkwardly worded. Parts of Europe use SECAM, not PAL; the Brazil version was PAL-M, which is a distinctly different system; and both PAL and NTSC versions were sold in Asia.

--85.211.134.202 (talk) 18:15, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

The goal is usually to phrase the sentence as describing the article name. Otherwise it's a confusing intro.

"most widely used" is open to tedious debate anyway, unless you mean it in a strictly geographic sense. 75.69.10.209 (talk) 04:53, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I understand that, but unfortunately the sentence as it is right now is simply factually incorrect for the reasons I mentioned and needs re-worded one way or another. This is an encyclopaedia, and facts can't be glossed over just to make the wording roll off the tongue better. I'll admit I do think this is a consequence of the bizarre decision to name the article after a region-specific name for the console rather than the most widely used name (and yes, I do mean "most widely" as in geographical and in the sense it covers the majority of different iterations of the console, whilst "Genesis" only refers to one specific variant). But that's neither here nor there, I'm not arguing that the title be changed (I imagine I'd be wasting my time) but I am suggesting that the opening sentence needs to be edited to reflect actual fact. --85.211.134.202 (talk) 18:16, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

It's not "factually incorrect" - the sentence doesn't necessarily claim that one name originally came first or anything like that. You're reading into it too much. Either wording works in theory, I'm pretty sure the main reason it is the way it is because it uses the article's name first. It would be awkward to use "Mega Drive" first if the article title is "Sega Genesis". (In almost every article, the opening word(s) are the article title... Sergecross73 msg me 19:46, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Please read what I said before commenting, Sergecross. As I said, and I quote: "Parts of Europe use SECAM, not PAL; the Brazil version was PAL-M, which is a distinctly different system; and both PAL and NTSC versions were sold in Asia." whilst the article merely states "The Sega Genesis, known as the Mega Drive (メガドライブ Mega Doraibu?) in Japan and PAL territories". Therefore the article is currently factually incorrect as the implication is it's only known as the Mega Drive in Japan and PAL territories, when it's known as the Mega Drive in SECAM, PAL-M and as as the Asian NTSC model in addition. If you actually read what I was saying, my suggestion was therefore to change "in Japan and PAL territories" to "outside of North America" (the only problem with that is it then sounds awkward and backwards, but that was a side issue). What part of that do you not grasp? --85.211.134.202 (talk) 19:54, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, I don't understand how your proposed change addresses this though? Your proposal only changes the order of the systems. It seems like the more logical solution to your issue would to merely add more regions that use Mega Drive or something. (On the assumption that something needs to be done. I don't see any need for action personally, it's merely covering the major regions as it is typically done on VG related articles.) And again, like I, and the IP who first responded to you said, it would be rather confusing to have the very first item mentioned in the article not match the article's name. That's a project-wide consistency thing. Sergecross73 msg me 20:10, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Again, please try reading what I said more carefully before jumping the gun. I quite clearly stated in my original comment in this section that my suggestion was

The sentence:

"The Sega Genesis, known as the Mega Drive (メガドライブ Mega Doraibu?) in Japan and PAL territories"

should really read something more like:

"The Sega Genesis, known as the Mega Drive (メガドライブ Mega Doraibu?) outside of North America"

I'm really struggling to make it any more clear and concise to you, so that you'll actually understand. It's also quite shocking that you don't have an issue with the way it's written at present when it's literally incorrect and misleading. I can't believe your preference for the name "Genesis" over "Mega Drive" apparently trumps all other issues, including accuracy and factual correctness. --85.211.134.202 (talk) 20:16, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, you haven't so much explained three times as you've just copy and pasted the same thing over and over again. Additionally, your point is confusing, because as soon you propose what you said above, you add in your bit about "Which sounds kind of backwards to me given the original and most widely used name is Mega Drive, it seems to me it would make more sense for it to be worded: "The Sega Mega Drive (メガドライブ Mega Doraibu?), known as the Genesis in North America". That makes it look like the one where you say "Mega Drive" first is your proposal. Then you fill the rest of your posts with all these "OMG this guy don't get it!" type garbage and before you know it, your whole point is lost. Sergecross73 msg me 20:35, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I've had to copy it three times because there really is no way to put it more clearly. I really don't think it's my failing here that's the reason for your lack of understanding. It's quite obvious that my suggestion is to change "Japan and PAL" to "outside North America", and the awkward wording that results is a further side issue that may or may not also need addressing by putting "Mega Drive" first. Am I safe to assume you get it now, and are satisfied with the suggestion we change "Japan and PAL" to "outside North America" (as that's clearly more accurate and straightforward)? --85.211.134.202 (talk) 20:40, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it was pretty clear and acceptable to me. I didn't quite understand what the confusion was. ^^--SexyKick 23:40, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

We shouldn't ignore the point just because the IP editor is being a bit hostile.

I've changed it to "outside of North America", which, if nothing else, is an easier read that has less jargon in it. APL (talk) 20:45, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Thankyou, APL. My only remaining concern is that the syntax now seems bizarre - to place a single variant as the primary subject of the sentence then all other versions secondary - but I realise that it may have to remain that way as an unfortunate consequence of using "Sega Genesis" as the article's title, rather than the international name "Sega Mega Drive. At least the article is now factually correct, which is the main issue, and what was bothering me most. --85.211.134.202 (talk) 20:49, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

I just removed the "of" as it seems to break the flow of the sentence. Chaheel Riens (talk) 21:47, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Another minor niggle but the article now reads "The Sega Genesis, known as the Mega Drive (メガドライブ Mega Doraibu?) outside North America, is a home video game console released by Sega on October 29, 1988." That makes it sound as though it was released on that date under the name "Genesis" because the sentence is essentially saying "The Genesis was released on [this date]" with the "known as" forming a sidenote within the wording, if you follow me. There wasn't actually any console released by the name of Genesis until August 14, 1989. The best rewording I can come up with would be along the lines of replacing:

The Sega Genesis, known as the Mega Drive (メガドライブ Mega Doraibu?) outside North America, is a home video game console released by Sega on October 29, 1988. The reason for the two names is that Sega was unable to secure legal rights to the Mega Drive name in North America.

with:

The Sega Genesis, known as the Mega Drive (メガドライブ Mega Doraibu?) outside North America, is a home video game console released by Sega. Initially on October 29, 1988 in Japan as the Mega Drive, and then later in North America as the Genesis (as Sega was unable to secure legal rights to the Mega Drive name in North America), and finally in Europe and Brazil as the Mega Drive.

--85.211.134.202 (talk) 20:13, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

That information is all available elsewhere in the article. We shouldn't try to cram too many details into the opening paragraph.

The paragraph as written, is factually correct. The system (Known as different things in different territories) was first released on October 29, 1988. The details of the roll-out are just that, details. APL (talk) 22:20, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

True, but if we can address this without making it worse, it would be an improvement. I tried[4]. --B2C 00:16, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I realise that, but I still think the edit I've suggested is sufficiently succinct whilst being a lot more precise and less misleading than what's currently there. It's not ideal though, I know. I still think it's a bordering on being incorrect to state "The Genesis was released on October 29. 1988" when no console by that name existed until later. It's also not quite "known as different things in different territories" really, that implies a larger deal of variation when it's known as the Sega Mega Drive everywhere except one territory, that's an important distinction, I feel. Obviously the most precise and straightforward way to word it would be something like:

The Sega Mega Drive (known as the Genesis in North America, where Sega was unable to secure legal rights to the Mega Drive name) is a home video game console released on October 29, 1988.

Of course, the problem with that is it puts the Mega Drive name before the Genesis one, which given the article's current title isn't really tenable. The obvious solution would be to just change the article's heading to the console's original and international name - "Sega Mega Drive"; but there's a lot of hostility towards that for various reason. --85.211.134.202 (talk) 18:13, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

The first sentence, to me, is still awkwardly long. We're trying to get too much information into the lead sentence, where short and simple may make better sense. I think a potential solution that eliminates the order discussion would be as follows:

The Sega Genesis is a home video game console designed by Sega. First released in 1988 in Japan as the Mega Drive (メガドライブ, Mega Doraibu), the console was exported to North America in 1989 where it was renamed Genesis as Sega was unable to secure legal rights to the Mega Drive name there. When the console entered new markets in 1990, Sega began using the Mega Drive name again.

The sentences are factual and in chronological order, while keeping the key information in place (that it was first released in Japan as Mega Drive, first exported to North America as Genesis and later released again as MD). I agree that the lead should be a summary, hitting high spots but not covering every detail.

--McDoobAU93 18:40, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi, McDoobAU93. Would I be right in assuming you're talking about my proposed edit? It sounds like you're talking about the existing article, but what you're describing is what my edit would do (state the basic key information, and clear up the ambiguity of the existing sentence). --85.211.134.202 (talk) 18:50, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

It's a bit of both ... it addresses the current format of the lead sentence and your point as well about keeping the information factually accurate, yet not setting up the article for yet another name change discussion. --McDoobAU93 19:41, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm confused. Per my edit from yesterday, this is the latest revision of the lead sentence:

The Sega Genesis is a home video game console released on October 29, 1988 by Sega as the Mega Drive (メガドライブ, Mega Doraibu), the name it is known as outside North America.

Is anyone seeking to change this? If so, why? --B2C 19:49, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Nah, I'm fine with that. --85.211.134.202 (talk) 21:25, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Rename Suggestion

I propose we rename the article to "Sega Mega Drive/Genesis" this should suit all parties and is an accurate title, what do you all think? 94.172.127.37 (talk) 07:19, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

This discussion was already had. Check the archives. A large number of people already participated in the discussion, consensus was established. Dream Focus 10:32, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Well reading over the archives we have had years of people disagreeing with the current name, so a small minority reaching a consensus at one point of time is outweighed by the amount of people who have disagreed with such a decision94.172.127.37 (talk) 22:16, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

That's how ENGVAR issues go. If the American version is used, the Americans don't even notice that there's a debate, and the Brits all come and complain. If the British version is used, the brits don't notice there's a debate and the Americans show up to complain.

That's why the policy is to use the first variant used. Because if you open if for debate it'll keep going back and forth for no good reason.

(Hybrid names like "Gas/Petrol" are also not used.)

You have to remember, that there are lots of articles with name disputes. There's nothing unusual about this article's naming issues. APL (talk) 05:46, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

This isn't an ENGVAR issue though, nor an issue of Americans and "Brits", or anything comparable to gas versus petrol. It's about a product's actual name. Not just a preference over a common term. --85.211.203.66 (talk) 06:01, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't think there was a consensus actually, which is why the reasoning for changing it to Genesis relied on the revert back to what the article was originally called argument. All the other arguments in favour of using Genesis(no. 7 in the FAQ) are bunk. I'll address them:

1) It's claimed that "Sega Genesis" is better than "Mega Drive", as it follows the pattern of Sega consoles being named "Sega [something]". However the Mega Drive was always commonly known as the "Sega Mega Drive" just as much as the Genesis was known as the "Sega Genesis". So that argument falls flat, and if the article were to be named using the Mega Drive name, then the obvious think to do would be the name the article "Sega Mega Drive".

2) "The compound title was untenable". I fail to see why. I don't have a problem with a compound title if people feel the North American name is significant enough to be worthy of inclusion in the heading, but if people are really against a compound title, then "Sega Mega Drive" (the original and international name of the product) gets priority over "Genesis".

3) No evidence for Genesis having higher amount of usage in English language sources. Most Sega websites/wikis/etc. use the "Sega Mega Drive" term over the Genesis one.

It should also be noted that although this is the English Wikipedia, that doesn't mean it only applies to English-speaking nations - it applies to English-speaking people regardless of country. And the English Wikipedia still gets far more visitors than the localised versions do, even in the country of the language the localised version is catering for. In short, the English Wikipedia is the international Wikipedia, not just a localised version of English speaking countries, and with that in mind this article is catering not just to people in the UK, Australia, New Zealand and North America, but also to people in continental Europe, Japan, Asia, Brazil - all of whom will know the console as the "Sega Mega Drive". --85.211.203.66 (talk) 05:59, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm kind of busy this morning, but one thing jumps out at me straight away:

3) Stop looking through rose-tinted glasses. Where are your sources to back up such a claim? You are aware that Wikipedia relies on sources aren't you? For example, Gamefaqs - one of the oldest and largest gamers resources around, refers to the console as "Genesis" The exact opposite of your claim was one of the over-riding factors in the naming convention staying with Genesis. Chaheel Riens (talk) 08:30, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Gamefaqs - a US-based website calls it the Genesis - whilst CVG and sega.wikia, for instance, call it the Mega Drive. We could both go back and forth quoting sources all day, but that isn't going to be conclusive proof either way of what the most common name is. I still highly suspect it's Mega Drive, and in my experience most websites call it such. If this was one of the over-riding factors in calling it Genesis then it just supports my point that the arguments in favour of Genesis are bunk, since trying to prove which term is more commonly used either way is nigh-on impossible. --85.211.203.66 (talk) 08:52, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, I'm sure we're all glad that you don't have a problem with the compound name. However a large number of previously uninvolved editors felt it was against policy and a bad precedent.

85.211 said : "We could both go back and forth quoting sources all day, but that isn't going to be conclusive proof either way of what the most common name is."

Exactly. What waste of time that would be. APL (talk) 09:12, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Right so if we can't conclude which name is more commonly used, then we have to discount that as an argument in favour or either "Mega Drive" or "Genesis", agreed? So my point about the arguments in favour of Genesis not standing up are valid. I'm also quite happy not to use a compound name, but only in favour of "Mega Drive", not "Genesis". I'm willing to be reasonable and compromise either way on this as long as the console's original and international name is included in the title. It's the hardheaded proponents of calling the article "Genesis" and nothing else that are being unreasonable and illogical here. --85.211.203.66 (talk) 09:23, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

According to policy, if a "common name" can't be determined, you just leave it where it is, or change it to the article's oldest name.

The policy is not designed to find the "Best" name, it's designed to find a name that works, and then discourage people from wasting time changing it. APL (talk) 09:38, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

But as I said in another section, the oldest non-stub name was "Sega Megadrive" not "Sega Genesis". In any case you keep switching the subject; my point was merely that the arguments in favour of Genesis in the FAQ are invalid and should be discounted. So the sole reason in favour of "Genesis" is the fact it's the oldest used title, although again that was as a stub. --85.211.203.66 (talk) 09:50, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

WP:TITLECHANGES states:

"Changing one controversial title to another is strongly discouraged. If an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed. If it has never been stable, or it has been unstable for a long time, and no consensus can be reached on what the title should be, default to the title used by the first major contributor after the article ceased to be a stub."

The last revision of Sega Genesis, prior to being moved to Sega Megadrive certainly looks like a stub to me [5], and was very early in Wikipedia's lifetime, having only had a handful of edits made since its creation. After that, the article remained at "Sega Megadrive", "Sega Mega Drive", or simply "Mega Drive" for several years, during which time it ceased to be a stub. Since those three names are simply minor variations of one another I would suggest that WP:TITLECHANGES actually specifies that one of those names should be chosen for the article, as that was the first name used when the article ceased to be a stub. --85.211.203.66 (talk) 09:06, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

You're really stretching.

It's long enough to be non-stub, especially back in 2003 when lots of articles were that short.

It contains technical information, and background material.

Only one source, true, but back in 2003 that wasn't uncommon.

The reason everyone doesn't want to reopen this issue is because it would be a giant pointless debate with no easy way to settle it except by voting (USA would win that, of course.), so how does this help? Trying to declare that the 2003 article is a stub would not be uncontroversial, so you haven't simplified the debate at all, you've just made it more complex, which makes us even less eager to reopen the naming issue!

APL (talk) 09:21, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Well it seems unequivocally to be a stub to me, especially when compared to later revisions under "Sega Megadrive" only a few months later. --85.211.203.66 (talk) 09:26, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, looking like a stub "to you" doesn't count for much, just as if I were to say it looks like a Start-class article doesn't count for much. In the reach for some reason to get the article renamed, editors keep forgetting that the console's first name is not Mega Drive, but メガドライブ. In romanized form, it is more accurately presented as Mega Doraibu, but it is just as accurately romanized into Mega Drive. Even if the name is derived from two English words, the name is still Japanese. Thus the COMMONNAME criteria, the name of the object the first time it was released in an English-speaking region, would hold, and that's Genesis. --McDoobAU93 18:22, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Hah. Too bad we can't leave the article at its original name of メガドライブ, thereby frustrating Americans and British equally. APL (talk) 21:42, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

85.211, Think about what would happen if we agreed with you. We wouldn't just change the article on your say-so. We would re-open the debate. Gamers from all over Wikipedia would be invited to participate. Unless one 'side' or the other had a really convincing argument, and I don't just mean a correct argument, I mean an argument that's so correct that everyone agrees instantly, it would just come down to a popularity contest and a thinly veiled vote. How do you think that vote would go?

Now think about the consequences of having a "wrong" title. Searches still work. Everyone finds the article they're looking for. The only negative consequence would be that some people would be confused for the length of time it takes them to read the first sentence of the article.

What you're proposing is that we spend a lot of time and energy on a debate that probably won't change anything to fix a problem that has almost no negative consequences anyway. APL (talk) 21:53, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

If you were as nonchalent about the article's name as you pretend, then you wouldn't be objecting to it on that principle, because you simply wouldn't have to participate if you had no interest in the outcome. The fact is you have a personal interest in seeing the article remain at "Sega Genesis" why is why you're so hostile to a debate on the topic, even when there's a very good argument to be made for changing it, and the fact most of the arguments in favour of Genesis are flawed (as I pointed out). --85.211.203.66 (talk) 16:43, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

If you check the contributions of the two IP addresses in this discussion [6] [7] you'll find their few edits involve this issue. Most likely someone didn't get their way last time, so are trying to distort things and start this argument all over again, as often happens on Wikipedia. Probably the same guy with both IP addresses. Dream Focus 01:20, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Not sure about that - certainly not to a quack quack level. The ip's locate to Bradford and Mauchline - and are operated by Virgin & Tiscali. I suppose it's possible it's a tag team effort, but even so I think it's just more likely to be coincidental Stiff Upper Lip Imperialism vs Decadent Yankee Pigs. As usual. Chaheel Riens (talk) 08:08, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I've never been involved in the Mega Drive versus Genesis debate before, not do I have any affiliation with the other IP. --85.211.203.66 (talk) 16:43, 3 June 2013 (UTC)