Talk:Fox News

Lead

The last paragraph in the lead is not significant enough to be mentioned, as it gives undue weight in relation to the page as a whole. Plus the criticism seems to be from sources of a biased opinion (Rachel Maddow). It either needs greatly shrunk and reworked for neutrality or removed entirely. As it is it cannot stand, and so I'm removing it. Naapple (Talk) 01:42, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

The lede of an article is intended to summarise the body text - the paragraph does this. It isn't solely sourced to Maddow, and in any case, we'd need better grounds to label her opinions 'biased' than the assertions of a single contributor. Or perhaps you'd like to explain why your assertions of 'bias' are legitimate, and Maddow's aren't? The lede has been discussed repeatedly, as the archives indicate - and note that it is only stating that critics have accused Fox News of bias, which is demonstrably true: such accusations have been made. I am going to revert your removal of sourced material from the lede, and suggest that you read the archived discussions, and come up with better grounds for removal than 'I don't like it' before discussing the matter further. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:14, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

That Maddow is biased is pretty much not debatable, but I like her being used as an example as it shows that most of the criticism is coming from the very far left. Arzel (talk) 23:46, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Most of that two sentence paragraph is about how news reporting and political commentary operate independently of each other. It can't be shrunk much further, and if it leans any way, it's to the right. But it doesn't lean any way. Both sides say their piece. If you trust FOX's story, great. If you trust the critics, great. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:40, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Forgive my absence, exams week. So: Two of the citations in the first group are from a left wing commentator, another was about OJ Simpson (removed), and the last 2 are from the current democrat administration. That plus the Rachel Maddow cite leaves all sources as biased. This has now been clarified.

I'm sorry, but a "it's in the archives" argument doesn't cut it. I'm bringing up the issue now. Also, neutrality isn't a bias on both sides. Neutrality is a lack of bias either way. If some part of the article is right-wing biased, then fix it. I'll take this as an admission that the lead's previous wording is a left wing bias to counteract the right wing bias. Thanks for that. It's now been clarified.

Naapple (Talk) 07:58, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

• The "it's in the archives" answer isn't as flippant as it sounds. Just like WP:BEFORE suggests you should do some research on your own before nominating an article for deletion, it seems logical and courteous to want an editor new to the article to see if the issue has already been addressed, how it was addressed and if their line of reasoning has already been presented. Niteshift36 (talk) 12:55, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
• As for your "I'll take this as an admission.....". I've reverted your premature conclusion. this discussion has hardly resulted in a conclusion that your change is warranted. It may at some point, but we're not at that point yet. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:30, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Your edit goes against what you said about shrinking the section. The whole gist of it feels rather pointy, and an average reader could probably guess the political leaning of the person who wrote it, without looking at the talk page. Not neutral. "Critics" works well. If a reader wants to know details about each source listed here, they can look themselves. Undue weight. Should we briefly describe every other source used in the article, too? These sources are used as examples to back up a general claim made by many critics, not just these three particular ones. Your wording implies these are the only critics claiming this. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:53, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

You're right. I do think it's still too large in weight to the article as a whole. There's 7 or 8 sections of this page, one of which is controversy/criticism. My changing of the lead is a compromise, since apparently everyone here thinks it's appropriately weighted. And yes, looking at all the citations, I do think that the only criticism is from the Left. Why are you guys so afraid of complete information? I'm not suggesting that every single citation have it's author mentioned, but all those citations have one thing in common: they're from the Left. This absolutely needs reflected. Don't like it? Find a neutral source. As it is now, no one's given a good reason for the revert. Naapple (Talk) 22:13, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Do you have a neutral source calling these sources "left wing"? If not, it can be removed on simple verifiability grounds. If you find a source which I (or others) perceive as "right wing", would it be OK to point out that that source is right wing? And where would it end? InedibleHulk (talk) 00:52, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

You clearly haven't reviewed the sources one by one like I did. Please rejoin the discussion once you've done that. Of course you're gonna claim you have anyway, so please enlighten me on the citation that isn't from an openly left wing source. Thanks. Naapple (Talk) 04:37, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

A simple question. Why do you think we should consider your 'review' to be remotely relevant? Given that you seem to be asserting that (a) Fox is neutral, and (b) anyone who says it isn't must be from the left, you seem to be lacking in logic. If it was neutral, wouldn't there also be critics on the right? AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:45, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like WP:OR. So because you can't find a criticism from the right, then the criticism from the left must be true, and that it's only from the left must be left out to support your own conclusions. I'll tell ya what: why don't we just drop the pretense and skip straight to the edit war so this can go to the DRN and get solved. Clearly neither of you is willing to seek a compromise and you're only pushing your agenda. This would be ok, except that you're not playing by the rules: back your shit up with citations. Find a neutral citation or accept that your citations will be labeled left wing. I know complete and open information can be scary, but this is an encyclopedia, not HuffPost. Naapple (Talk) 01:21, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

You are engaging in WP:OR - you chose to do your own 'review', and then tell us the supposed 'result'. As for 'complete and open information', you were trying to get the section removed from the lede entirely earlier - so cut out the BS. If you want to take this to DRN, fine, go ahead - I'm sure you will be told why your attempt to spin the article isn't acceptable. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:16, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Yea, that's about what I expected. You're right (and I'll say it again), it's too large for the section, completing it was my compromise, as I did want to remove it. Lets shine a big spotlight on this. I don't get why you're so afraid of some complete information. All of those citations are openly opinions and stating them as fact is POV pushing. Naapple (Talk) 02:20, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Are you actually trying to be obtuse? "Critics have stated that Fox News Channel promotes conservative political positions[5] and biased reporting" is a fact, by any rational understanding of what the word 'fact' means. They are critics, and they have stated it. We aren't suggesting that their statements are right, or wrong, we are pointing out that they've made such statements - and the sources verify that they have. Anyway, take it to DRN, or anywhere else where others can see your repeated BS about wanting 'complete information' to include your spin/original research, but not any suggestion that Fox might actually be seen as biased by people you can't pin an easy label on. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:06, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Your personal attacks (I see your talk edit descriptions) and inability to discuss any specifics have shown you're either incapable or unwilling to find a compromise, or consider any viewpoint other than your own. As such, I'll be ignoring you until this behavior changes. Naapple (Talk) 05:04, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

• Naapplel, entertaining as this is, your curcular argument isn't gaining any traction. You are far from having a consensus here. That fact hasn't stopped you from trying to force your changes in. Perhaps you should consider this a lost cause before your edit warring backfires. Niteshift36 (talk) 05:06, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia should have neutrality in politics so the phrase "_Critics have stated that Fox News Channel promotes conservative political positions and biased reporting. Commentators, news anchors, and reporters at Fox News Channel have responded that news reporting and political commentary operate independently of each other, and have denied any bias in news reporting_" should be in the controversy section not in the opening discription, otherwise it makes Wikipedia look like it wants to take sides against FOX news.

(also this is my first time posting a comment like this so if it belongs somewhere else please move it, thanks)Chinablue888 (talk) 19:28, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

The lead is for summarizing notable aspects of the topic. The subject of conservative bias in news has been widely discussed in many sources, and Wikipedia is just mirroring that, not making its own judgement. We have a sentence for each side, stating their view in about equal size and depth. So we're not picking one side over the other. Regardless of news content, the paragraph makes clear that FOX News leans to the right in commentary. Nobody denies that, and it is helpful to readers in understanding the channel. Not a political statement by Wikipedia, just a statement of fact that happens to be about politics. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:54, April 17, 2013 (UTC)

This article doesn't come close to meeting Wikipedia's neutrality standards. Is Fox's reporting biased? Absolutely! However, look at two other obviously biased news channels; Russia Today and MSNBC. The lead section of Russia Today doesn't mention anything about bias since this is relagated to the "objectivity and bias" section (As it should be). MSNBC's lead section is sort of romantically lables MSNBC "increasingly progressive", but this description is glowingly positive and the words 'criticism' or 'bias' are never mentioned in the header (again, they are correctly discussed in the "criticism and controvercy" section). For those who wish to keep three cited comments concerning the bias of Fox News in the lead section, please satisfactorally answer one question: Why should Wikipedia's article on Fox News mention something in the header that no other articles on news channels address in the header? The obvious answer is that it shouldn't, or if it should, we should also reflect this in these other two articles as well as others. It should be taken out of the lead and moved to the proper section. (Please compare) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_Today http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Msnbc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.95.57.187 (talk) 16:06, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me that you are saying that it is the Russia Today and MSNBC articles that are at fault - in which case you should raise the matter on the appropriate talk pages, not here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:19, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree this is the wrong talk page. WP:OTHERSTUFF applies to deleting content as well as articles. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:41, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

As for "increasingly progressive" being a romantic or glowing term, consider which side of the fence you're on. A progressive may see the word as a positive, while someone who'd like the status quo to remain (or reappear) would find it negative. Same as "conservative" or any other ideology, religion, race or custom. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:41, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, no, I am not saying that it is the Russia Today and MSNBC articles that need to be changed. You should reread my comment and pay attention this time; namely to where I repeatedly mention that in those articles claims of bias rightly appear in bias section rather than the lead. Secondly, this IS the correct talk page for deleting content from the lead. I am suggesting we delete the bit about bias from the lead since it is already adequately covered in the rather large "Controversies" section (and this section should be large). This would bring the article in conformity with other articles about other biased news channels. The bit about the term "increasingly progressive" being positive or neutral is really missing the point and only serves as distracting a red herring. The fact of the matter is the lead of the MSNBC article does not use words such as "bias" or "controversy", but rather just reflects MSNBC's own slogan. I don't have a problem with that, but I am saying that THIS article should save bias and controversy for the proper section. Please guys, I'm really trying not to go here, but it it getting increasingly obvious that some of you are determined to have your own biases reflected in this article. I don't like Fox either, but we really should adhere to Wikipedia's neutrality policy as well as making sure that our article conforms to the established norm for other such articles. Leave your vendettas against Fox at the login screen, please.

Using "some" in the lead

Belchfire keeps removing the word "some" from the lead, citing the weasel words guideline, but apparently hasn't read it too carefully. While the guideline does say to generally avoid them (note that it doesn't say prohibit), it also says: "The examples given above are not automatically weasel words, as they may also be used in the lead section of an article or in a topic sentence of a paragraph, where the article body or the rest of the paragraph supplies attribution." Now, the removal has been reverted by more than one editor, suggesting that the removal of "some" actually makes the sentence deceiving and/or inaccurate. Perhaps Belchfire will discuss this here. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:21, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, without "some", it reads like all critics and observers have pointed out the bias. Not true, and we've got sources backing up "some". A few minutes after I reverted him once, he placed an edit war warning on my Talk Page. I hope that doesn't indicate he's planning on starting something long-term. I responded by directing him to this Talk Page, like Niteshift suggested in his edit summary. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:51, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Impoverished article lead

It seems to me that the article lead does not adequately summarize the body of the article. It is a large article with a tiny lead. It seems like the sections in the article ought to be summarized. B^e——C_ritical 17:50, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

• Why? The lead should give you a thumbnail of what the topic is, then the sections explain everything else. Trying to jam more into the lead doesn't sound like an improvement, but if you have a specific suggestion, please present it. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:38, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Well relative to my recent edit, If we're going to say " In 2010, its programs took the top ten spots for most-watched cable news programs in the 25–54 age demographic, and the top twelve spots among total cable news program viewersl" I think that this needs to be balanced. It's promotional in respect to how viewers see Fox, in spite of the balance on other subjects in the last paragraph. B^e——C_ritical 00:04, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not so sure I like your recent edit, but that's a separate discussion. Regardless, FNC is still the top rated network. Whether they've slipped or not, the others aren't even close at this point. Maybe others will see your point, but right now, I don't. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:40, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure I don't like it. If there's one thing with less educational substance than a poll, it's a poll that attempts (I use that word loosely) to quantify an unquantifiable like trust. Hardly can be called info, certainly not lead-worthy info. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:07, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, yes of course but not liking something is irrelevant to Wikipedia. I'm hoping for responses which help us decide whether or not to put balance into the lead. We currently have:

In 2010, its programs took the top ten spots for most-watched cable news programs in the 25–54 age demographic, and the top twelve spots among total cable news program viewers.

I think noting how that has changed and the direction of that change is relevant. I would think so, for those who have already accused me of POV pushing, whether or not the change was negative. Also, why is it that we are quoting stats from only 2010? Maybe either get more stats from more years to show a trend, or get it out of the lead. B^e——C_ritical 03:00, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

• Maybe if you were a little less literal, you'd realize that "not liking" it is simply a way of expressing that there are some concerns about it. I mean if you want to act all confrontational, I can go that route. Or you can dial it back and actually discuss. Now, at this point, no consensus has been achieved, yet you've taken it upon yourself to ignore the instructioons on the lead and force your own changes in. I'm reverting your change until something gets achieved here. Niteshift36 (talk) 07:43, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it's a bit dated. Doesn't tell a reader about how things are today, or how they've typically been. I'd rather see that in the ratings section only. Hardly significant to FOX News, as a whole. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:26, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree there's no reason for the new poll as long as there isn't a discussion going on that needs to be filled out. As I edited it before Niteshift36's revert, it only gave the current and long-time status of Fox as the "dominant cable news network," without going into a discussion of viewership. If a discussion of viewership is included, it needs to be filled out, it shouldn't just be snapshot from 2010 without any update or context. Unless there is an argument that the 2010 stat is the most important overall fact and a summary. B^e——C_ritical 08:08, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Silence is consensus. I'll assume you guys agree and change it back pretty soon. B^e——C_ritical 19:14, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what we agree on, but I've removed the 2010 ratings stuff from the lead, as it was outdated and, like you say, just a snapshot. Not particularly significant in the bigger (or current) picture. Tried Googling for an updated number of households it reaches (2009 is older than it seems), but failed. Some better researcher might want to try. So the lead is pretty balanced now, just a bit dated. Both bits would be fine in the Ratings and Reception section, I think. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:37, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what we agree on (: B^e——C_ritical 20:51, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

• "Silence is consensus" is a dangerous presumption. That's primarily why I reverted your edit. It's not so much that it's a good/bad edit, but that you are misstating the "per talk page" routine. Just because you explain your point here doesn't make it a done deal. Secondly, not every interested editor will be on Wikipedia when you are. Just because you posted something and nobody immediately jumped in to object doesn't mean everyone agrees. If an article gets nominated for deletion and 2 weeks goes by with only one editor opining, it will probably get relisted because silence isn't always consensus. If you bother to look though the talk page archives, you'll see many who regularly edit this article and the lead has been a frequent point of contention, making the "silence is consensus" manner of thinking even more off-base. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:35, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

• Saying "silence is consensus" was used after the edit had been reverted, to spur people to post after waiting a day. Had things remained silent, then silence would indeed have been consensus. B^e——C_ritical 00:18, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

• I know when it was done. Try looking at what I'm saying instead of trying to get pedantic about pointless details. The notion that silence means approval, particularly when that "silence" is only a day or so on a very contentious article, is not sound decision making. It's also kind of disrespectful to those who did hash out an actual consensus before. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:28, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

• No offense intended. B^e——C_ritical 02:28, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

• About the size of the lead: it's quite appropriate per WP:LEAD as far as I can see. It's not really a "large" article, B-critical, it's just got a long list in it, section International transmission. That list is hard to summarize in the lead. I tried in fact to shape a sentence about it, something like "As of 20XX, Fox News is available in Y countries" but had to give up, because the list is surely not complete, nor is there any way of telling how up-to-date the text about each country is. (It says the poison word "currently" in the Canada subsection btw; please see WP:REALTIME. I just added a {{When}} template.) If some clever researcher out there can find more general information about international availability in a reliable and reasonably up-to-date source, I suggest you put a sentence about it into the lead. Bishonen | talk 21:11, 10 February 2013 (UTC).

Tried Googling. Either I'm not a clever researcher, or Google's a stupid tool. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:55, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

You're right, I regretted the heading and first post. Fortunately we were able to accomplish something through the discussion in this section anyway. B^e——C_ritical 21:27, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and the three two-line paragraphs even look balanced now. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:53, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Good source?

Just a question, is Tvnewser on mediabistro.com quoting Weekday Ranker a good source? What is that Weekday Ranker? I didn't find anything immediately, so just asking[www.themediaaudit.com/media/30535/ranker_report.pdf]. B^e——C_ritical 09:07, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Where is Bulls & Bears, Cavoto, Forbs on Fox? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.185.22.206 (talk) 16:17, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Please add to #Israel section

i dont know why i cant edit this paragraph, so please add it for me:

"FNC is broadcast on channel 71 of the cable operator pay-TV HOT. "

also, fix the type of the YES operator - should read "satellite operator" instead of "cable operator". --81.218.79.200 (talk) 11:36, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I've fixed your Wikilink, and found your source. Guess it only makes sense now to make your edit. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:53, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

The YES in the article was a completely different American cable channel. So it was technically correct and incorrect. Thanks for noticing! InedibleHulk (talk) 03:04, June 18, 2013 (UTC)