Talk:Nazi Germany

Powszechna PWN

It's Encyklopedia Powszechna PWN. Xx236 (talk) 06:54, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Fixed! Thank you, -- Diannaa (talk) 14:27, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Gun control RFC

There is an ongoing RFC that may be of interest to editors in this article. Talk:Gun_control#RFC Gaijin42 (talk) 16:02, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Oppression of Christians

It is a gross understatement -if not a travesty - to sum up the oppression of the Catholic Church and other Christians as merely some were "disciplined, arrested and put in jail." This is far from the truth, nor anywhere remotely correct. Thousands upon thousands were murdered, spent years in concentration camps -not "jail"- and suffered greatly under this nightmare simply for holding to their faith and/or defending the Jewish people. This current summary is woefully short of the reality.

And, the "handy work" of the Nazis to harass the Catholic Church began in the late winter early spring of 1933 - not 1935. Of the 20 odd books I have read on this topic from mainstream historians notes this. So . . . . what is the concern bringing this to light with RS citation? (talk • contribs) 19:31, 13 July 2013 (UTC) Integrityandhonesty (talk) 19:36, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

The source used for this section (Evans 2005) does not mention any Christian deaths at all, which I found kind of surprising. Shirer covers the same material on pages 234 to 240 and he does not mention any deaths of Christians either. If you have sources that talk about thousands upon thousands of Christians being killed, please present them here on the talk page for discussion. Thanks, -- Diannaa (talk) 21:01, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Diannaa- Good to hear from you. Well, in this very Article the Section, "The Outbreak of War", cites (Evans 2006) stating that by the end of 1939 - less than four full months after the invasion of Poland, 65,000 were targeted prior to the invasion, then killed within the intelligentsia - among them-clergy. Poland, then and now, is predominately - Catholic Christians.

In the wiki Article covering the concentration camp of Dachau it discusses the "priests barracks" where 1034 Catholic clergy and some 30 Protestant pastors met their deaths, citing Ian Kershaw "The Nazi Dictatorship, Problems and Perspectives . . . . " 4th edition and others. Further, in Robert P. Ericksen's, "Complicity in the Holocaust", p. 109, he writes, "perhaps as many as 1,000 Polish priests were murdered for fear they might be potential leaders of a future rebellion." Therefore, the 'testimony' of just these three sources alone places the number over 2034+ at a minimum. And, we can go on and on. It is in the aggregate - rather than a single source - that the picture comes into focus.

Last, in Robert A. Krieg's, "Catholic Theologians in Nazi Germany", states that the powers given to Hitler as Chancellor - due to the Reichstag Fire Decree of Feb. 28, 1933 - were used/abused to require civil servants to members of the Nazi Party in the states where they had control. Clearly, harassment to all. Then on p. 7 he states, "During June 1933, Nazis waged a strong anti-Catholic campaign ....", clearly long before 1935, or the signing and ratification of the Concordat. So, I ask again. Why is this not reflected in this summary? Integrityandhonesty (talk) 23:02, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Not convincing. The Nazis harassed the Catholic Church in Germany but did not suppress it or kill its leaders. Rjensen (talk) 23:20, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Deaths of the Polish priests is already covered in the section on Poland. There's figures for deaths of priests in Dachau concentration camp and Priest Barracks of Dachau Concentration Camp, but the numbers are totally without sources. Kershaw is used as a source in that article, but not for that particular point. Obviously, priests were placed in KZs as well as jails, and I can source that with materials on hand, so I will add that right now. If you can find a source for these deaths, of course we can add the information. Diannaa (talk) 02:00, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not well enough informed on what Hitler did to Christians to comment on the content, but what I do know is that Christianity is not a race. The content is in the wrong place. HiLo48 (talk) 00:34, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

That's a good point, Hi-Lo. I think i will move it to "Society" -- Diannaa (talk) 01:10, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree the placement is better for the section, now. The concordat with the Nazis was for international PR opinion, as well to protect the power of the church and the practice of Catholicism in Nazi Germany; which included Catholic youth groups and schools. Kierzek (talk) 01:36, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello fellow editors- thank you for your input. Whether this topic is under "Society", or otherwise, seems of modest concern. Our focus s/b historical accuracy. In reverse order? The Concordat was a goal of the Catholic Church since the start of the Weimar Republic in 1919 - not simply an ad hoc response to Nazism. Was it PR? Well, that may have been so for Hitler - but not the Catholic Church. Was it to protect its "power"? If by "power" you mean maintaining control over its institutions? Yes, that's on the mark. As for the youth groups and lay organizations? That was never fully resolved-it was a constant bone of contention between Berlin and Rome post the treaty being ratified and until the end of the war. It's unfortunate as well, Kierzek, that your link to "Catholicism" is a discussion of the concept/notion of the word catholic in Christianity - not the Catholic Church in Nazi Germany. Annoying -I know, but . . . . it is what it is. The Article that covers this topic in depth is the Catholic Church and Nazi Germany.

In response to Rjensen? You're entitled to your POV. All that was pointed out above is founded in RS citations of respected scholars. What are you offering other than a vague, "I'm not convinced" based on "leaders" not being murdered? If by leaders you mean: bishops, or the pope? Yes, that's correct. But, to have done so would have caused rebellion in the German military. The Nazis were ruthless-not stupid. Yet, many Christian leaders were murdered for resisting founded upon their faith, such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer, or the religious philosopher, Edith Stein And, many others like the priests mentioned. As well, being sent to a Nazi concentration camp goes a touch beyond mere "harassment".

Lastly, how do we define: confiscation of land, property, printing presses, publications, radio stations, the shuttering of seminaries, monasteries, convents and schools, which the Nazis had done, other than suppression? Thank you Integrityandhonesty (talk) 02:27, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

You are reading too much in my link Integrityandhonesty; I was linking (here only) the "practice" of that faith which is part of what the church in Germany wanted to protect at that time. BTW-Dianna has recently made some good tweaks along the lines of this discussion to which I appreciate her time and effort. Kierzek (talk) 03:34, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Understood- this subject is highly complex and full of subtle nuance, which require sorting through to "get it right". This much I've learned over the years. Until next time. All the best.Integrityandhonesty (talk) 03:49, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I think that a European perspective is useful. Nazi Germany played a major role in protecting the Catholic Church in Spain (1936-39), where priests were indeed murdered by the thousands (over 6000). How many German Catholics were killed because of their religion? "thousands and thousands" is not supported by the RS. Rjensen (talk) 03:56, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Rjensen- Once more, you're entitled. Do not wish to be appear to be "combative". The Nazis involved themselves in the Civil War in Spain for a host of reasons. Priming their military, and fighting their arch rival - the Communists among several. The Communists were a major force in Central Europe since the 1920's and were seeking further expansion via Spain. Not that complicated when you get to the fundamentals. Was Communism synonymous in the Nazi mind to the Jewish people? Yes. And,yes, many priests and religious were murdered in cold bold by the Communists there.

To say the Nazis were there to "protect the Catholic Church" as its primary motive, or even truly a viable point ? I'm sorry, but that's a 'straw-man' debate. A connecting of dots that do not stand up to the hard facts. Was the Catholic Church encouraging opposition of the Communists? Yes, without a doubt. But, for the same motivation as the Nazis? Categorically - no. The Catholic Church has been denouncing Communism sine 1891 with the publication of Rerum Novarum when Hitler was an infant and Franco was a one year old. This is like stating the Ocean is wet because the water is blue.

Robert Krieg, Robert Ericksen and Ian Kershaw are not RS's? Okay. Have any of you been to Dachau? If you have not. In the museum there? What I just put forward? Is in the displays and education kiosks. And, in the Article on Dachau? The numbers are sourced regarding the # priests who died there: 1034. Ericksen tells us around 1000 priests were murdered during invasion of Poland. So . . . . a touched confused on that point. Is not Dachau in Germany? Was not Poland a Nazi territory? Integrityandhonesty (talk) 04:27, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Integ seems to have a great "insight" into what the Nazis "really" intended to do when they seemed to be helping the Catholic Church, but he gives no sources and does not mention the Vatican role. Then again he can't tell the difference between Poland and Germany, or between harassment (which happened in Germany) and systematic destruction (which did not happen in Germany). He needs to look at German history (Bismarck was much rougher on German Catholics) as well as the Catholic response--see the articles on Pope Pius XI, Pope Pius XI and Germany and Pope Pius XIIfor leads to the major scholarship. Rjensen (talk) 13:49, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Good Morning - Just to wrap up this whole issue. Rjensen? It's okay. But, there is not a requirement for any of us to write a virtual treatise to make a point;willing to work with you - not do your homework for you. Read more.

Yes, the Vatican had a vested interest in Spain during the Civil War there. Just as they did when the Russian Empire fell - for the very same reason. An atheistic power was brutally enforcing its will. And, it is clear that the Nazis walked more cautiously in their own homeland for a litany of reasons. Yet, they showed their contempt when the risks were low i.e., Poland and Eastern Europe.

Just what part of Evans (this Articles' own reference) statement that 65,000 were killed/executed soon after the invasion of Poland in cold blood, pre-meditated murder - and among them clergy confuses you? And, there is no mystery that- overwhelmingly- Poland was - Roman Catholic. This apparent denial of history, or innocent ignorance, is no excuse to belittle the memory of the thousands of Christians that were targeted and murdered by the Nazis because of their faith based resistance. I'll leave it to your conscience to work that out.Integrityandhonesty (talk) 15:00, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

"Integrityandhonesty" is an unfortunate username for an editor who refuses to read the many monographs and scholarly studies on how Germany treated Catholics and Protestants. None of them say that thousands and thousands of Catholics were murdered by the Nazis because of their faith (that happened in Spain and Russia). The idea of suppressing the Catholic Church in Germany and arresting the bishops was Bismarck's (1870s). Rjensen (talk) 18:16, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Rjensen- If we're speaking of Germany "proper" (as in, pre-1936 borders) what you state is correct. We agree. Inside Germany "proper" the verifiable figures are less than 1100 +-. Outside the borders of Germany 'proper' (as in, the Nazi Empire )-particularly at its peak ? Then, the figures soar dramatically, leaving Spain aside altogether.

With that, it's an injustice - in my view- to summarize the fate of Christians inside Germany who resisted, and assisted the Jewish people based on their faith, as merely harassed, disciplined, arrested and jailed. This language places their fate no worse than a fraternity party gone bad. They were beaten, murdered, dispossessed and placed in concentration camps left to die. This was the fate of at least 1100 between 1934-1945 that can be reasonably verified inside Germany. Again, the Dachua priests barracks being the obvious example. This is what I'm stating. Hope you see the merit of this position. Integrityandhonesty (talk) 22:10, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

you're making assumptions not supported by any RS: a) occupied Poland should be treated as integral to Germany; b) the priests were often arrested for defending Jews. Rjensen (talk) 22:19, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Rjensen- These are verified historical facts. If you visit the, Catholic Church and Nazi Germany Article you will see the data on the Dachua priests barracks. Perhaps, I was seeing an illusion at the Dachua museum with the list of over 1000 priests that perished there. More broadly - if you visit the Article Holocaust victims and read the Section, religious persecution you'll read the following: 2,000 Jehovah Witnesses were placed in concentration camps in Germany; thousands of clergy were killed. 3000 of the Polish clergy murdered - 1992 in concentration camps. 2600 Catholic priests from 24 different countries killed in concentration camps in Germany, 1034 from Dachau alone.

Is this body count sufficient to count as an RS? Or, do we need more? Here is a sampling of German Christians in Germany who where murdered in Germany for their faith: Josef Wirmer - hung. Willi Graf-head of Catholic Youth Groups and member of the White Rose-beheaded. Maria Restituta - beheaded for placing a crucifix in a classroom and writing a poem denouncing Hitler. This is not to mention the other more infamous individual cases such as, Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Does this look anything like simply being "disciplined" - "arrested" and "jailed"? We can go on and on. And, these are the cases we know about. I'm not interested - just as are you- in empty debate. Again, I hope you see the merits of the position.Integrityandhonesty (talk) 22:53, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

no the body counts do not meet Wikipedia's criteria of a "reliable secondary source." The raw numbers do not provide the motives. You have found no evidence that the people were killed for religious reasons. Real persecution is what the Nazis did to the Jews (or racial grounds) and Jehovah Witnesses (on religious grounds), not what they did to people who happened to be Catholics. Rjensen (talk) 03:55, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Rjensen- This is, well, pointless. No matter what objective evidence is placed before you it's as if it does not exist. I offered respected RS's such as Krieg, and Ericksen and several links within Wikipedia that already provide further RS citations. Yet, you have provided not a single RS that denies or refutes any of what has been put forward. Can you produce a single citation that states no German Christians (including Catholics) were murdered by the Nazis in Germany for their faith based resistance, or placing themselves at great risk to assist the Jewish people motivated by that faith? If not? Then, what does that tell us? We need to move on now - if you can not produce this. Of the 11 or so concentration camps in Germany on any given day from 1936/7-45 you will have found thousands of Christians there because of their faith based resistance. I challenge you to produce one historian of credit that refutes this historical reality. And, I will let what has been put forward speak for itself. As for Catholics? An incredible statement on your part. So, if we're to take what you're implying, then Roman Catholics were - what-exactly? Not that I have put forward Catholics exclusively here. You have singled out Catholics. Please feel free to elaborate, however. Integrityandhonesty (talk) 04:27, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Rjensen- Not much coming forward. Or, can we look forward to more vague repeated circular language of denial of history void of a single quote of an RS? I think there is a phrase that is useful in circumstances such as this. It goes like this Rjensen. You say, "You're right - I'm wrong. Let's move on." Integrityandhonesty (talk) 11:23, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Yet, you have provided not a single RS that denies or refutes any of what has been put forward. No--that is not the way Wikipedia works. If an editor believes A,B,C are true, he has the burden of providing us with reliable secondary sources that state A,B,C Rjensen (talk) 16:21, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello fellow Editors- First, thank you Diannaa for adding "concentration camps" to the list of horrors that Christians in Germany who resisted based on faith to the Section under discussion. And, Kierzek for pointing to the edit. Yet, this is a start - not fully complete. They were dispossessed, families torn apart and thousands murdered in the most brutal inhumane/ unjust fashion conceivable. This is not to take away - at all- from the fate of others. But, what is the "message sent" to omit one concise sentence? Are not readers entitled to know? Are not future generations to hear the full truth?

Rjensen- I'm not at loss;your position lacks merit thus far. Your complaint that I have not provided RS's is just - well- not true. I provided several, one of them existing in the Article from Evans. And-once again- several Wikipedia links with numerous RS's that support what is being offered. While you have yet to produce a single RS quote to refute. Not a very solid argument. Not only this, I offered links to individual cases of those - yes, murdered by the Nazis in Germany for resisting based on their faith; each Article providing an abundance of RS citations in their own right.

This all started with the point about Christians - not only Catholics. Every historian of this period knows 2000+ Jevovah's Witnesses (from Germany in Germany) were murdered in cold blood for refusing to compromise their faith. Are they not Christians? Every historian knows that well over 1000 catholic priests died in the Dachua concentration camp - in Germany. They even have a memorial plaque on the grounds for Pete's sakes! With their names on it. Were they all there for resisting based on faith alone? No, but most were.

And, this notion of proving the motivation of the executioner is -again- off the mark that is, whether its political, or religious persecution. The real question is what motivated the victim to resist in the first instance. Yes? Politics, or their faith? The motivation of the executioner is secondary. In the eyes of the victim resisting based on faith? You can be sure they understood what was really happening. They literally staked their lives on it.

My motivation is not ideological, political, theological, or an agenda of some sort. My motivation is -justice and impartial objectivity. And, no more. To deny this fact based history is a grave injustice wether you have a bone to pick with any particular religion, or faith tradition, is not relevant to the objective reality of what actually- happened. With that, yet more victims of the Nazi nightmare who were killed, no, murdered or died in a concentration camp because of their faith based resistance to Nazism - in Germany- from Wikipedia with an overabundance of RS citations in each:

Paul Schneider (pastor) Protestant pastor, Maria Skobtsova Russian Orthodox nun, poet and French Resistance member, took the place of a Jewish woman about to taken to the gas chambers in a concentration camp- in Germany. Wladyslaw Goral - bishop murdered in a concentration camp - in Germany, Titus Brandsma catholic priest and renowned scholar of philosophy murdered in Dachua by lethal injection in a "medical experiment", and there is plenty more where this came from -sadly. Now, I place the rest on the conscience of the good editors of this Article. And, have said my piece. Thank you all.Integrityandhonesty (talk) 23:09, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

• Ethnic German Catholics were treated differently from non-German ones. Also some in German Catholic Church supported extermination of Poles and invasion of Poland.The Nazis who viewed Poles as subhumans planned to exterminate all Polish Catholics after their long planned war would come, and engaged in mass executions of clergy and destruction of churches.

How Catholic Church was being destroyed on Polish territories annexed by Germany during the war can be read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany#Religion --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:33, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

MyMoloboaccount - Thank you! Very much on the mark. There were some Christians (using that label loosely) -nor singling out Catholics, or the "Catholic Church"- who adapted: the Racial policy of Nazi Germany - the source of this hateful "subhuman" concept of the Slavic people and others. And, there was a movement called Positive Christianity among the Nazis who explicitly and formally incorporated this racism into their "faith tradition"; composed mostly of lax Protestants of northern Germany and some former Catholics. It is also true and correct that nationalism played a part.

As for the Catholic Church? The leadership (meaning the bishops as a body) formally denounced this racism. And, among the Protestants-most notably - the Confessing Church had done the same. The Orthodox Churches also published similar documents and positions. Like most history- we prefer simple answers to complex issues, but if we're seeking truth we have to contend with the complexity of the human experience. No escaping it.Integrityandhonesty (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Mistake in Territorial changes

In part Territorial changes is written: "The Saarland was made part of Czechoslovakia" Shouldn't be there France instead of Czechoslovakia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Helldix (talk • contribs) 17:57, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you are right. Thank you for spotting this mistake. -- Diannaa (talk) 19:01, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

The Saarland prior to being incorporated into the Federal Republic of Germany was a French Protectorate, but it was never annexed by France.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 21:04, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Motto

@Binksternet. Should we then remove "E pluribus unum" from the USA article? Or the "(popular)" and "(unofficial)" anthems from German Empire? etc. -- Director (talk) 19:07, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I do not want an unofficial motto in the infobox, but I have no problem with prose in the article body telling the reader about various mottoes, including "Volksgemeinschaft" (The People's Communiity), "Wach auf, du deutsches Land!" (Germany awake!), "Blut und Boden" (Blood and Soil), "Bread and work", "All wheels must roll for victory", "The common good before the individual good", "through death to a millennium", "He who possesses the youth, possesses the future", and of course, "The Fiihrer is always right". Trying to choose one of these for the infobox is too thorny a task. Binksternet (talk) 20:29, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

@DIREKTOR: There was extensive discussion about this point in May, and the decision was taken that this was more a party slogan than a national motto. We couldn't find any sources to back up the assertion that this (or any other) motto was the official national motto, and as far as I know all content in a GA-level article must have sources, so we took it out. There's more information at Talk:Nazi Germany/Archive 4#Motto. -- Diannaa (talk) 21:04, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, we already discussed this (per the link above) and the consensus was removal. Kierzek (talk) 02:16, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I think I read somewhere that was the most popular "motto", I'll see if I can find the publication. -- Director (talk) 04:12, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think anyone disagrees that "ein rich" was A motto, but putting it into the inforbox implies it was The motto, which I think is unsupported, even with the current ref. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:36, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

did nazi germany have a national motto?

Did nazi germany have a national motto and if so which one? 83.180.210.160 (talk) 19:59, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

we can resolve the issue here instead of edit warring 83.180.210.160 (talk) 19:11, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

they may have, but we need sourcing to determine if so and which one, which we do not have. For example, here are other phrases which are refereed to in reliable sources as "the nazi motto" (Used in the sense of "The phrase X" (none of which are the "official motto"

• "The jews are our Misfortune" [[1]]
• "Deuchland uber alles" (also the national anthem)
• Kraft durch Freude (Joy through Strength) [[2]]
• Arbeit macht frei [[3]]
• Blut und Boden [[4]] [[5]]
• Blut und Ehren [[6]]
• Gott mit uns
• Loyal and Firm behind the fuhrur [[7]]
• The german everyday shall be beautiful [[8]]
• Deutschland, erwache [[9]]

And I could find many more quite easily. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:30, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

ok can some one find the correct one, because it is very important to the infobox of the article 83.180.210.160 (talk) 19:33, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

The one that seems to be the "most official" is actually Gott mit uns, which was on the coat of arms of the empire, etc, but I don't think there is sufficient sourcing to declare it the winner by any means. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:40, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it is "important to the infobox". The infobox is there to serve the reader—period. If there is no particular slogan or motto that can be described as the official one then we leave that infobox parameter empty. The existence of an infobox parameter does not mean we require an entry in it. Binksternet (talk) 19:45, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

"Gott mit uns" is not nazi germany it is the german empire 83.180.210.160 (talk) 19:47, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Like many things, the 3rd reich attempted to provide continuity with the 1st and 2nd reichs. They used the motto extensively (Although I still would say none are sufficiently sourced to be "official", and there may in fact not have been an "official" motto, which would have required some sort of deceleration or law being passed saying it was the official motto. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:55, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Where is the laws about the the other historic german entities, on wikipedia they all have one motto 83.180.191.31 (talk) 20:04, 9 August 2013 (UTC)