Talk:Canada

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Culture section and strict gun control

Regarding Section 7 titled "Culture" I do not understand why "strict gun control" is listed and considered a Canadian cultural value? I was quite surprised to see it listed. There is no evidence I am aware that supports this as a fact. Canada has had a long history of being involved in Olympic Shooting Sports and a massive hunting culture that plays a significant part in the tourism industry. I would also add that recent history also shows the opposite with the repeal of the Federal Long Gun Registry. Regardless of anyone's feelings towards the gun control debate, these facts and do not support the statement that Canada has a 'gun control' value.

I strongly suggest this pseudo value be removed from Canada's culture as Wikipedia should not be used as a place to promote personal political views that have no factual evidence outside of personal political agendas.

JackCommons (talk) 02:09, 4 June 2013 (UTC)— JackCommons (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Canada has a gun control system that is much more strong and strict than the Americans and this is what the source is referring to. But that said the "reference" used in the article cant be seen by all... so will give some more below that explain this position. I personally have no problem with its removal...but others have argued it is a main social different between US and Canada - that results in Canada's low crime rate. Will let other chime in here...pls all read the sources below.Moxy (talk) 03:58, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

• Norman L. Lunger (2002). Big Bang: The Loud Debate Over Gun Control. Twenty-First Century Books. p. 119. ISBN 978-0-7613-2260-3. U.S. gun-rights activists found it hard to understand Canadians' acquiescence to such far-reaching gun controls. ... To many Canadians, the nation's strict gun controls are a prime reason why gun murders are rare in Canada
• Gary Kleck (1997). Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control. Transaction Publishers. p. 360. ISBN 978-0-202-36941-9. As in Great Britain, after Canada implemented its more stringent gun controls, its homicide rate advantage over the United ... therefore cannot conclude from such simple cross-national comparisons that stricter gun controls reduced violence
• Gregg Lee Carter Ph.D. (2012). Guns in American Society. ABC-CLIO. p. 250. ISBN 978-0-313-38671-8. Historically, Canada has had stricter gun control legislation than the United States, as well as lower rates of criminal violence and a higher suicide rate
• Jack Reynolds (2003). A People Armed and Free: The Truth About the Second Amendment. AuthorHouse. p. 233. ISBN 978-1-4107-4545-3. They point to other countries, such as Canada and Japan, that have strict gun control laws and much lower rates of shootings, asserting that gun control therefore must work to reduce violence
• Constance Emerson Crooker (2003). Gun Control and Gun Rights. Greenwood Publishing Group. p. 5. ISBN 978-0-313-32174-0. Gun control proponents often point out that countries such as Great Britain and Canada, which have strong gun control laws also have lower rates of violent crime.

I think Moxy is right here, and the cites to RS support him. In recent years I have lived just south of the border and have been struck by the difference in attitudes toward guns. In the US it's much more than hunting, it's a strong sense that gun ownership is long-term security against a runaway oppressive gov't -- an idea strong here in Montana that seems to be absent in BC, Alberta, Sask & Manitoba. Rjensen (talk) 04:08, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

And it is, in fact, one of the most citable things in any comparison of US and Canadian culture and attitudes.....one of the most marked differences, in fact, along with the attitudes towards universal health care. It figures prominently in history, as re the Americans in the BC and Klondike Gold Rushes not being able to sport handguns like they do on US soil, e.g. Sgt Steele's gatling gun at the summit of t he White Pass, where they were disarmed, and Gov Douglas' various edicts in colonial BC.....not just culture and intrinsic to identity, but so deeply ingrained in policy that any suggestion it's not Canadian culture is....well, I can't use an expletive; the user who posted that is a three-edit SPA.Skookum1 (talk) 04:38, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

This conversation appears to have shifted to the topic of how Canada compares to the United States. However, the section in question is describing Canadian culture, not comparing it. While one could claim there are currently gun control advocates in urban areas (Basically Montreal and Toronto), it would also be true to state that rural areas and the rest of Canada do not share the same view. As I previously stated Canada has a long history of being involved in hunting and shooting sports. Of course, in some ways even this is besides the point, as is Rjensen' mention of the American's fear of tyranny. 'Use' is not the topic of discussion anymore than 'comparisons' are. We are simply discussing a nation's view on 'control' of an item. It may or may not surprise some here, but Canada had very few restrictions before the Liberal government created the current Firearms Act. Canadians were able to freely use handguns and fully automatic rifles without restriction. Of course, history is easily forgotten. If we are to give an objective description of Canadian culture I strongly feel it should be representative of the whole country, not of political issues in certain areas. Therefore, I still maintain 'gun control' as a value should be removed as I do not see it as a value that can be proven to be shared by all Canadians. The other values listed: Publicly funded health care, higher taxation to redistribute wealth, the outlawing of capital punishment, and strong efforts to eliminate poverty have a long and consistent history in Canada. The legalization of same-sex marriage is new, but has shown widespread acceptance. 'Gun Control' in Canada only became an issue in the 70's and has been a controversial issue ever since. When one considers the continuous amnesties, modifications, and repeals it is clear gun control is not something Canadians have come close to agreeing on. Political issue? Most definitely. Cultural value? No. Unless you have an agenda.

JackCommons (talk) 21:24, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

This conversation, like Canadian culture itself, is necessarily about comparisons with our giant neighbour. In fact, it's how and why Canada was founded and united, that we do not embrace the Second Amendment, for starters. Your claim that this is not a political issue is hypocritical given this sentence "Canada had very few restrictions before the Liberal government created the current Firearms Act." The prohibition on sidearms and non-hunting rifles is as old as Canada itself and a part of our history and identity. Rural and wilderness people, yes, need their rifles; but they do not advocate, as you are implying by your equivocations, for unrestricted access to side arms and assault rifles, such as are common in the United States. Your agenda here is clearly political, as are your attempts and recommendations to change this article to the Tory/GOP/NRA mindset. Blaming the Liberals for whatever is also clearly a Tory talking point. And an NRA one....Skookum1 (talk) 03:13, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

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Skookum1, you're bleeding heart Liberal view of Canada is only one side of the story. Your idea of Canada as a reaction to the USA is laughable. Your claim that prohibition of firearms is as old as Canada itself is a load of bull too. Where do you come up with this stuff? Bringing up the Tories and NRA shows just how weak your viewpoint actually is. In Canada we have the NFA who fight for our firearm rights. Before you want to dismiss the Firearm Culture of Canada as non existent, maybe you should do a bit of research into it. Your one sided view of Canadian culture will not stand. "Wikipedia should seek to reflect reality, not influence it or control it." = where did I read this?? How about you reflect the reality that Canada is in truth deeply divided on the Firearms issue much like our friends to the south. Only the Canadian mainstream media would go out an a limb and say Canada has a history of strict gun control due to 30 years of Liberal failed experimentation. How about you reflect reality? and stop trying to influence it. - Max (a law abiding Canadian) 2:27AM June 9, 2013 EST— Jonjonesjjohnson (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

You were the one who brought up the Liberals, sir, and have just accused me of being one. I'm a widely-read historian and very familiar with the history of the border and the Canadian West and the Klondike and of British Columbia, in all cases involving stories and policies regarding the ban on handguns and the prevention of US-style gun culture. If you don't read history, or are dismissive of those who "harbour Liberal views", then you are not qualified to comment on it. You are also engaging in WP:Personal attacks and also treating this page as blog; both are not allowed. I'm not going to read your partisan rant, my stomach has had enough of you already today. Like many of your kind, your language skills fall short once again - "you're" - "your" is correct. Not you. And you are the one doing the bullying, sir.Skookum1 (talk) 06:32, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

There seems to be some confusion over the difference between gun control vs gun culture. Nowhere in the article does it mention no gun culture - all it say is the the country has a more stringent control on the guns people use. So yes there has been control on guns for a long time in Canada...

• R. Blake Brown (2012). Arming and Disarming: A History of Gun Control in Canada. University of Toronto Press. p. 90. ISBN 978-1-4426-6560-6.

In 1867 the Justices of the Peace had the authority to impose a six-month jail term on anyone carrying a handgun, if the person did not have reasonable cause to fear assault against life or property. The first Criminal Code (1892) required individuals to have a basic permit, known as a 'certificate of exemption,' to carry a pistol unless the owner had cause to fear assault or injury. It became an offence to sell a pistol to anyone under 16. Vendors who sold pistols or airguns had to keep a record of the purchaser's name, the date of the sale and information that could identify the gun."

But the term gun control when it comes to reinforcing or implementing regulations is a different point all together as seen at Jean L. Manore and Dale Miner (2011). The Culture of Hunting in Canada. UBC Press. p. 216. ISBN 978-0-7748-4006-4. - Could it be worded better? Moxy (talk) 07:37, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

• I just came across this interesting discussion. It's late, but I'll get a small start on it tonight. First: we should all keep political affiliations out of this one. It is natural for Canadians to compare Canada to the United States when it comes to guns, but one of the chief differences is the restriction on handguns in Canada. And none of the political parties have broached the subject of relaxing this restriction on handguns. So can we please leave politics behind?

In my opinion, the paragraph in question has several potential concerns, in addition to the inclusion of "strict gun control" as an indicator of cultural values. Perhaps it all starts with the reference, Bricker and Wright's book What Canadians think about almost everything. This is a book which has been produced to be an entertaining read as opposed to a scholarly work. And it is written by two Ipsos-Reid pollsters. We know how adept pollsters are at formulating questions and "interpreting" data to get the conclusions they want, right? This might bear some additional investigation (if editors are serious about making changes here) including dragging the book in question out of the nearest library. It may even turn out to be a source we would prefer to eschew. I certainly wouldn't want pollsters defining anything about me! -- Taroaldo ✉ 08:10, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

We could change the book that was written by the Director of Public Opinion Research in the Office of the Prime Minister who has a Ph.D. in political science from Carleton University. But this will not change the fact that the other refs above support the term.Moxy (talk) 14:00, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

---

My point, is that saying Canada has a history of strict gun control is wrong. 30 years of strict gun control due to ONE political party, and without the consent of MPs and the public, does NOT constitute a "history of strict gun control". I'm sorry, but your views are skewed towards a Liberal narrative of our history. Please open your mind, and realize that what CBC tells you isn't always true. CHECK out this article on what gun control in Canada has given us since 1977: <url>http://jiv.sagepub.com/content/27/12/2303.abstract<\url>

Canada has implemented legislation covering all firearms since 1977 and presents a model to examine incremental firearms control. The effect of legislation on homicide by firearm and the subcategory, spousal homicide, is controversial and has not been well studied to date. Legislative effects on homicide and spousal homicide were analyzed using data obtained from Statistics Canada from 1974 to 2008. Three statistical methods were applied to search for any associated effects of firearms legislation. Interrupted time series regression, ARIMA, and Joinpoint analysis were performed. Neither were any significant beneficial associations between firearms legislation and homicide or spousal homicide rates found after the passage of three Acts by the Canadian Parliament—Bill C-51 (1977), C-17 (1991), and C-68 (1995)—nor were effects found after the implementation of licensing in 2001 and the registration of rifles and shotguns in 2003. After the passage of C-68, a decrease in the rate of the decline of homicide by firearm was found by interrupted regression. Joinpoint analysis also found an increasing trend in homicide by firearm rate post the enactment of the licensing portion of C-68. Other factors found to be associated with homicide rates were median age, unemployment, immigration rates, percentage of population in low-income bracket, Gini index of income equality, population per police officer, and incarceration rate. This study failed to demonstrate a beneficial association between legislation and firearm homicide rates between 1974 and 2008.

By saying Canada has a history of strict gun control is true only of the last few decades, but you fail to mention that it hasn't actually helped Canadians in any way. To sum up: PLEASE, go ahead and keep your little part about Canada being a bastion of strict gun control, BUT at least provide the facts that prove that all forms of gun control legislation up to this point have been completely useless and a waste of money, because this is REALITY. - MAX (a non-biased Canadian) 13:34, June 9, 2013

Your reality maybe, but you should read WP:TRUTH and WP:BLOG and WP:NPOV and "keep your little part about how we're all CBC-listening capital-L Liberals" or whatever; you bore me and you have NO IDEA about Canadian history, that's clear to me; I even doubt you're Canadian at this point. Not because uyou don't think like us, supposedly, but because you go on the attack about history you haven't even read and know nothing about. Pffft you clearly have a highly partisan and very short-term knowledge of Canadian history; "strict gun control" may have been formulated in Canada in the wake of the Kennedy assassination and the near-civil war in US cities in the '60s, but our "gun culture" (non-gun culture) goes back beyond Conservative PMs like John Diefenbaker right back to Sir John A (also a Conservative and beyond). Your anti-capital-L "Liberal" propaganda here is clearly partisan and taken from a certain party's list of talking points. You are making no headway here whatsoever, and bear in mind that many WP:Canada contributors are, in fact, Tories or Tory aligned. And they have "liberal educations", meaning educations in the liberal arts, which doesn't mean "capital-L Liberal aligned" or "liberal values" but literature, languages, geography, and history. Not history as written by Manning School for Democracy graduates or the Pratt Institute, but actual history. Your premise that we are ignorant because we, supposedly, listen to the CBC is further proof of your partisan bias and role here as an ideologue and word-twister. From Fort Whoop-up, to Fort Steele, to the heights of the White Pass and Gov Douglas' stationing of a ship at the mouth of the Fraser to disarm ships entering that river for the gold rush for guns and also anyone disembarking in Victoria from San Francisco being disarmed or turned back, and more, Canadian history is full of stories that evidently you juust don't know, and even said to me "where do you get this stuff from?" WHERE? REal books, not NRA pamphlets.Skookum1 (talk) 16:50, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Pointless to keep the debate going if people are not reading the sources provided and trying to refute them. POV have no place here....rebut the sources or find ones that say other wise. The article does not say a "History of gun control" - just states the fact as of this point in time.Moxy (talk) 18:10, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

• Obviously my simple request to try to keep things a bit more civil went nowhere. All of the above editors need to look at their own conduct because, frankly, the long-winded diatribes sound ridiculous! I was hoping I could make a useful contribution here, but I see I would be wasting my time. See ya. Taroaldo ✉ 21:33, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Moxy that political ideologies have no place in this discussion. Skookum1's comments have an emotional quality that make me question whether he wishes to discuss or instigate.

Skookum1 has condemned me as a right wing sympathizer that is using 'taking points,' but his own posts can be construed similarly. Was it the Liberal Party of Canada that introduced the present Firearms Act or not? Skookum1 has purposefully introduced American politics into a Canadian discussion. He also seeks to slander through the implication of political affiliation. All of which are diversionary and irrelevant to the topic at hand. The differences between Canada and the US are not reliant on the second amendment. Canada's identity is not defined by being in reaction to US identity. These very notions are preposterous and do a disservice to our nation.

The prohibition of handguns, fully automatic rifles, and military styled rifles are not as “old as Canada itself.” While firearm registries existed in varying capacities, it was only in 1969 that the classification system came into existence. Up until then, Canadians freely used and owned all types of firearms. Due to the prohibited classification's grandfathering clause Canadians still own these types of firearms. Furthermore, the endless reclassifications of various firearms throughout the years proves the issue of what firearms Canadians should or should not have have remains undecided. Skookum1 your statements concerning firearms and Canadian identity are simply wrong.

I am not arguing that gun control does not exist in Canada. I am also not arguing the legitimacy of any of the politics surrounding the issue. I am however bothered by how an issue with such short but extremely controversial history can be considered a cultural value. It does not make sense. JackCommons (talk) 12:04, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

You accuse ME of spouting political ideologies, but that's all you've been doing, including your cant and accusations about "Liberal" and CBC-viewing and "Liberal education" and your clearly revisionist parrot-talk of the Harperite attempt to rebuild/rewrite Canadian history in the neoTory image. I have no more time for this foolishness; it's a terrible thing to have to de-watchlist my own country's mainpage, but I'm taking this off my watchlist as a pain in the a$$ and a waste of time. The "short but controversial history" is not short AT ALL and is typical of the narrow and short-range views of obvious ideologues adn the historically-ignorant such as yourself. You are out of line, mister, but I'm bored with ANIs and even moreso with axe-grinding, agenda-thumping SPAs such as yourself. De-watchlisting now, have fun with your inevitable ANI.Skookum1 (talk) 05:18, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Now that Skookum1 has removed himself and hopefully taken his hot headed tirades along, we can return to debating the topic at hand.

Moxy you stated that 'strict gun control' should be kept based on the the articles listed so far. However, as you also state, 'rebut the sources or find ones that say other wise.' Canada has been repealing law and moving away from gun control: - Long gun registration ended (Bill C-19) - The tabling of Motion M-439 to end the Provincial Chief Firearms Officers, plus various petitions demanding limitations on the powers of Provincial Chief Firearms Officers (http://responsiblefirearmsreform.ca/2013/04/16/cheryl-gallant-introduces-motion-m-439/) - The present Prime Minister's promise to repeal Bill C-68 (http://www.guelphmercury.com/opinion-story/2768771-harper-has-vowed-to-rid-canada-of-gun-law/) - The repeal of gun show regulations (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/12/19/can-gov-repeal-gun-show-regulations.html) - The Ian Thompson trail where the Crown recognized the justified use of firearms for self defense (http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/01/04/matt-gurney-after-two-years-judge-acquits-man-who-defended-himself-with-a-gun/)

As far as current research concerning gun control, the peer-reviewed article by Dr. Caillin Langmann called “Canadian Firearms Legislation and Effects on Homicide 1974 to 2008” in 'The Journal of Interpersonal Violence' cannot be ignored. He studied the effects of successive changes to firearms law in Canada. The article concluded, "This study failed to demonstrate a beneficial association between legislation and firearm homicide rates between 1974 and 2008." (http://online.sagepub.com/search?fulltext=DOI%3A+10.1177%2F0886260511433515&src=hw&andorexactfulltext=and&submit=yes&x=25&y=5) Also, John Lott's current publications proving the negative effects of gun control in North America have yet to be legitimately refuted, but my own research has found that people often have difficulty considering his research objectively due to opinions concerning his personal conduct.

However, and I apologize for repeating myself, I still do not agree that this discussion is about whether gun control works or does not work in Canada. This is a discussion about 'culture.' Merriam-Webster defines 'culture' as: 5.b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a place or time <popular culture> <southern culture> (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/culture)

Canada as a whole has a distinct culture and it is important we distinguish it honestly. Due to the size of the country and the variety among provinces, we must be careful to remain objective when discussing the nation as a whole. To use the current discussion as an example, it would be fair to state that Quebec has historically shown a culture of strict gun control. The same statement can not be made when discussing Alberta. When describing the culture of Canada we must be true to the beliefs, social norms, and traits that are shared and accepted throughout the nation. Topics that are found to be controversial throughout Canada should not be listed as valued by the whole. Not only is it misleading, it is misinformation. JackCommons (talk) 17:21, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

• Mounted Police Sam Steele episode of Canada's "Heritage Minutes" series. -- Heritage Minute -- Moxy (talk) 20:19, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure what your point in posting that article was? It states that a Mountie confiscated various items (including hand guns) from criminals crossing the border. That is not gun control, it is crime control. Also, it concludes with people celebrating the Mountie's departure, implying he and his 'law making / policies' were not supported by the populace. Please explain how this article has anything to do with gun control in Canada. JackCommons (talk) 17:30, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Now that some of the disruption appears to have ceased, perhaps some progress can be made. I need to do some more thinking on the whole section, but I do not see what "strict gun control" has to do with cultural values at all. Firearms regulations allow for the possession of many different types of weapons, including handguns. One cannot simply walk into the local sporting goods store and purchase a 9mm, but if you fill out the proper paperwork and clear the appropriate background checks, you will be able to purchase that weapon. There is no concealed carry in Canada, but that is simply a matter of law, not culture. To do the inevitable comparisons with the US, I can drive at a higher posted speed limit there, measurements are in miles and pounds instead of kilometres and kilograms, and they spell "cheque" as "check". None of this has anything to do with culture. Taroaldo ✉ 22:02, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Of course gun control is a cultural manifestation - like gay marriage or legalized pot or universal health care, In fact its a recent news topic Liberals use gun control to claim cultural superiority - "cultural signifier". All we can do here is regurgitate what the reliable sources say...we simply dont care about personal opinions if not backup up by some sort of verifiability process. The article does not say a history of,,, - it just say it is now - as does the sources above. Need all to read the book sources above - no guess work please. As for JackCommons sources above - he is correct the conservatives are moving in a different direction - but the current laws despite the ongoing changes are still strict compared to others - thus there is an ongoing "Cultural debate" on the topic. Moxy (talk) 00:28, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Gun control is a political manifestation. To say gun control is cultural would mean that opposition to firearms would be a part of Canadian identity. This just simply is not true. Firearms have been a part of Canadian culture since the first settlers set foot on this land. Just because one political party implemented the Firearms Act (against Canadians wishes I might add), does not mean that gun control is a part of Canadian culture. Moxy, you are claiming what left leaning media (aka reliable sources) say about the gun control issue. You can't help this, because news media is terribly biased in Canada. You have to look beyond Canadian mainstream media to realize that gun culture is strong in this country, and always has been. Canada has 2 million gun owners and growing. The truth is, there are plenty of scientific studies proving gun control doesn't work and that public opposition to gun regulation is rising.

Since the passage of the 1995 Canadian Firearms Act and the $1 billion spent on a national long gun registry, opposition to gun regulation has actually risen, especially in rural and small town Canada. - R. Blake Brown

How often to CTV, CBC and Global report the opinions of farmers and other rural folk? Toronto is not Canada. It is not a cultural debate, it is a political debate. There is NOTHING cultural about gun control in Canada. Gun control was a political creation in reaction to Mark Lepine and his stupid shooting spree. Many Canadians and politicians opposed it. To say the Liberal Party and a handful of feminist groups is equal to all of Canadian culture is terribly misleading. - Max Freddy ✉ 21:01, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

If the 'liberal mainstream media' report it that is how it works. You may not like it, but that is the way things work here. Oh and Moxy has sources up there we should look at. And 'the liberal party and a handful of feminist groups' I think pretty much gives away your POV. Dbrodbeck (talk) 01:41, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

My POV? I have my criticisms of feminism and the Liberals, much like everything, but your attempt at labeling me a misogynist redneck is laughable. You forget that it's them who have a problem with me owning a firearm, therefor it is them who are discriminating me. I support Womens Shelters, I protested the closing of the YWCA in Niagara Falls, ON. I am also pro-choice. I am also pro-gun rights. We obviously know your POV: believe the media, even if what they report is biased. BTW, Dbrodbeck, Let's look at what Sir. John A MacDonald had to say: (he's no David Suzuki, but a cultural figure none the less, remember who he is?)

In March, 1877, Dominick Blake, the Minister of Justice in the Liberal cabinet of Prime Minister Alexander Mackensie, reported to Parliament that the "...practive of carrying fire-arms [sic] was becoming too common" especially among "...the rowdy and reckless characters and boys and young men". He introduced legislation which specified a criminal penalty for persons "...whosoever should present a pistol, without reasonable cause, at anyone, might be bound over to keep the peace for six months" (Hansard, 1877, p. 850).Both Blake and Sir John A. Macdonald had concerns about the proposal. Both recognized that firearms, and handguns in particular, were routinely carried by law-abiding Canadians for self defense. Blake realized that criminals would probably ignore the law "...while the sober, law-abiding citizen would be unprotected". Sir John A. Macdonald stated that the law "...might have the effect of disarming the person who ought to be armed, and arming the rowdies" (Hansard, 1877, p. 851). The bill was passed by Parliament in April of 1877; however, the controversy it generated indicated that it established early in Canada's history that it was both reasonable and necessary for law-abiding Canadians to carry firearms, and handguns in particular, as a deterrent to criminal assault.

Max Freddy ✉ 21:01, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Where, precisely, did I call you any name like 'redneck' or 'misogynist'? Discuss the page, not the editor. I know you are a new, single purpose account, but you ought to read up on a few things before going off on me.Dbrodbeck (talk) 02:37, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Any mention of gun owners being victimized on Wikipedia? - Max Freddy ✉ 23:03, 15 June 2013 ({)

Please read WP:UNDUE and WP:NOTAFORUM. Dbrodbeck (talk) 03:09, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Please everyone, let us avoid turning this back into an emotional debate. This is about deciding whether gun control is a Canadian cultural value or not. Although, I must admit the consistent emotional interruptions in this conversation speaks to my point that this issue remains controversial. To use the example of healthcare, Canadians may have different opinions on it, but it is universally implemented across the nation and is being used by the majority of Canadians. There have been pushes to modify and improve it, but Canadians are not split on keeping or ridding the country of it. The same cannot be said about 'gun control' laws. Also, it was noted that the present political party is moving away from gun control, implying that this is simply their view and not that of Canada in general. However, the same can be said about the implementation of gun control in Canada. It was implemented by a single political party against the wishes of millions of Canadians. A large portion of Canadian society has been reacting against it ever since. JackCommons (talk) 10:54, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Patricia Cormack; James Cosgrave (2013). Desiring Canada - (CLICK HERE -read me). University of Toronto Press. p. 92. ISBN 978-1-4426-6330-5.

Gun control is clearly a political issue in Canada. It is an issue that only majority governments (of any party) tackle because the population as a whole does not share the same views on gun control as say universal health care. In 1995 the Liberal government of the day brought in bill C-68, the strictest gun control legislation to date. Once the Conservatives gained a majority government in 2011, they repealed a major portion of bill C-68 (the long gun registry) in February of 2012. This had been a part of their election platform the past 3 elections and was no surprise to those who voted for them. For their upcoming convention, the Conservative Part of Canada has on its agenda four different "Rules for Policy Discussions" that move to relax some of bill C-68 even further. Meanwhile, the NDP and Liberals opposed the scrapping of the LGR and are in favour of stricter gun control. This is pure politics. Mccomber (talk) 12:56, 19 June 2013 (UTC) — Mccomber (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

The reference used for "strict gun control" only mentions gun control in one sentence and does not state anything about it other than it is different than in the US. From the book:

"It is not an exaggeration to say that, with the possible exceptions of gun control and foreign policy, no issue differentiates the social philosophies of Canada and the United States the way health care does."

Mccomber (talk) 13:09, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Gun control is not clearly a political issue in Canada. It's a political reality in Canada. The long gun registry was not a gun control issue but rather it was presented as a financial issue. Everyone knew that long guns would not be under less control if the Conservatives gained power, only that we would stop spending money on double-tracking the owners. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:13, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Long guns most certainly are under less control without the registry. Individuals can freely buy and sell long guns to and from other licensed individuals without any paper trail whatsoever. It wasn't just presented as a financial issue. It was presented as a financial issue because it was deemed to be a gun control measure that the Conservatives said does not improve the public safety and therefore waste of money. Mccomber (talk) 16:40, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

• Norman L. Lunger (2002). Big Bang: The Loud Debate Over Gun Control. Twenty-First Century Books. p. 119. ISBN 978-0-7613-2260-3.
• Joseph Heath; Andrew Potter (2010). The Rebel Sell: Why The Culture Can't Be Jammed. HarperCollins Canada. p. 200. ISBN 978-1-55468-918-7.
• Jean Chretien (2010). My Years as Prime Minister. Knopf Canada. p. 209. ISBN 978-0-307-36872-0.
• --Moxy (talk) 21:04, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Ref. Norman Lunger's book, "strict" is a relative term. Here he is comparing Canada to the US and the term applies with many states (though other states and/or cities have much stricter gun control than Canada such as Chicago and California). However, if we are comparing then Canada has "loose" gun control when compared to Britain, Australia and Japan.

Ref. Heath/Potter's book is full of holes and the theories presented have been refuted by the likes of John Lott and others. "There are almost no handguns, no semi-automatics and absolutely no assault rifles" is also false. Check out the RCMP stats, particularly "Restricted and Prohibited Firearms per 100,000".

Ref. Jean Chretien's book, "We have one of the toughest gun control laws in the world, and Canadians want to keep it that way" is incorrect and opinion only.Mccomber (talk) 21:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Like to see a reply about the actual sources - I have to disagree with your opinion....

Norman Lunger's book - this is one of just 8 refs here that use that term - can they all be dismissed? As for Britain, Australia and Japan this is true - but Canada seems to have this term applied to it aswell (per all the sources above and this one)

Ref. Heath/Potter's - agree this is a debate - but most sources would agree less guns = less gun crime in general (again sourced above). As for the link to Canadian Firearms Program not sure what is being shown - I dont see any mention of handguns, semi-automatics or assault rifles there.

Ref. Jean Chretien's book - it is just an opinion - (hope the following does not sound mean) but unlike your anonymous opinion he is a person of Canadian historical significances.

SO needless to say we seem to have a huge number of sources to back up the claim in the article - not one that refutes this directly - just links to bills and stats that dont mention the topic directly. Moxy (talk) 22:25, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

If the 8 refs that use that term are all comparing Canada to the US and not any other Western or comparable nations then yes, they absolutely can be dismissed because this article is not title "How Canada is different from the US". Studies showing less guns = less crime tend to be flawed studies that were looking for that result from the outset and most have been refuted. For example they often tout Britain's reduction in homicide by firearm but fail to mention its continued increase in homicide and violent crime overall. Newer studies show that more guns either has no effect or = less crime. I will research and provide more references to this besides John Lott's book. As for Jean Chretien, while he certainly is of historical significance, he is still a Liberal politician expressing his political opinions on a political topic. If you can quote the majority of Canadian Prime Ministers saying something similar than it would be a cultural value and not a Liberal one. The link to the RCMP page does not have an anchor to the section I'm referring to. It is just past half-way down and is a table titled "Restricted and prohibited firearms per 100,000 Population". This table shows that on average there are thousands of restricted and prohibited firearms (read handguns, "military-style" semi-automatics and prohibited can mean assault rifles) per 100,000 for any given area of the country.Mccomber (talk) 22:52, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Actually, no they can't be dismissed. I know you are another new WP:SPA who registered today and immediately came to this talk page, but, we don't just dismiss sources we don't like. The statements are sourced. This discussion is, in fact, quite pointless. If three brand new single purpose accounts show up and demand something and are told by people who have been doing this for a very long time that they are wrong, they might actually be wrong. Dbrodbeck (talk) 23:03, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Being a new account to WP doesn't mean I am new to this topic. It just means I am interested enough to transition from a passive reader to an active one. As for the 1 weak source that does NOT mention gun control as a cultural value, yes I can dismiss it with the arguments above.Mccomber (talk) 12:16, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Moxy, here are references of the more guns = less crime variety: More Guns, Less Crime John Lott

Canadian Firearms Legislation and Effects on Homicide 1974 to 2008 Caillin Langmann, MD, PhD

Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International Evidence (Harvard Law Review) Professor Gary Mauser, Simon Fraser University Don B. Kates, retired

Gun Control: A Realistic Assessment Don B. Kates

Gun Control is not Crime Control Professor Gary Mauser, Simon Fraser University

I think these show that there is a counterpoint to proponents of strict gun control. More importantly, the following references support the notion that gun control in Canada is a political issue and not a cultural value:

Arming and Disarming: A History of Gun Control In Canada R. Blake Brown

Canadian Politics, Riding by Riding Tony L. Hill

The Real Worlds of Canadian Politics: Cases in Process and Policy Robert Malcolm Campbell

The Politics of Kim Campbell: From School Trustee to Prime Minister Murray Dobbin

This talking point is about whether Gun Control is a Canadian cultural value or a Canadian political issue. Not about whether gun control is good, bad or something else entirely. Just is it a commonly shared cultural value or not. If I try to think of Canadian cultural values (I'm Canadian) off the top of my head I come up with health care and human rights immediately. Gun control is not even on my list. That is not to say that it isn't on other Canadian's list, it certainly is. But to say that the majority of Canadians share that opinion is disingenuous at best.Mccomber (talk) 12:16, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Moxy, you state that, “Needless to say we seem to have a huge number of sources to back up the claim in the article - not one that refutes this directly - just links to bills and stats that dont mention the topic directly.” This is disconcerting because many of the 'sources' being used to back up 'gun control' as a Canadian value are opinion pieces or do not even have relevant context to the argument being made. I have mentioned this aspect specifically in previous comments and received no reply. I also find it disturbing that Mccomber has now responded with links challenging your statement and that some of those links have been previously posted. This implies you may be willfully ignoring contrary evidence. I would also note (again) the links posted by myself, and now Mccomber, are not opinion pieces or manipulated statistics. They are current peer reviewed research and government documentation. They are objective, not subjective.

Also, the topic of 'comparison' has come up again and, as has been mentioned, it is an injustice not to look at other countries that have influenced Canada’s growth and identity. After all, and it should be no surprise, the idea of ‘strict’ gun control is relative:

The United Kingdom has significantly stricter Gun Control laws: UK gun owners http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/9446474/UK-gun-owners.html

Indepth comparisons can be performed at GunPolicy.org: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-kingdom http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/canada

And while both countries are considered “Restrictive” by GunPolicy.org comparison of the listed facts shows Canada to be far more liberal.

France also has stricter gun control than Canada: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/canada http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/france

Australia as well has more strict regulations concerning firearms than Canada: Australia's Gun Laws: Little Effect http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1736501,00.html

Again a comparison can easily be made: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/australia http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/canada

All this to say that stating Canada has a culture of “strict gun control” because its application of law can be contrasted as more regulatory than the US is ignorant. A more balanced view is found when Canada is compared to other common wealth countries and countries of which it has cultural relations, not limited to the neighbor down south. When these comparisons are made Canada is shown to be a significantly less strict in this domain.

Further research will also show that the countries listed above, like Canada, are polarized on the issue. As has been mentioned by other posters in this conversation, gun control is strictly political. It is not and cannot be a cultural value in Canada. Its relevance is dependent on political parties and various lobby groups promotion and attention. In Canada, and many other commonwealth countries, specific governments have created legislation in reaction to specific events that have criminalized or marginalized massive segments of their population. A single government’s policy cannot be representative of a countries culture or value system.

JackCommons (talk) 17:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

One policy? This indicates to me no refs that have been provided have been read. Can we get all the new editors to read the statement in the article. To quote ".......strict gun control, and the legalization of same-sex marriage are further social indicators of Canada's political and cultural values". -- Moxy (talk) 02:33, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Moxy, you continue to ask that your references be re-read, but it does not appear that you are reading any of the references posted that oppose your opinion. Also, you list random references without providing explanations or any context of why they are relevant- even when explicitly asked to do so. This discussion appears to be at a standstill. I have requested for dispute resolution.JackCommons (talk) 20:57, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Jack Commons, you have presented a strong viewpoint both on gun control and the Liberal Party, and neither is helpful to discussing your request. The NFA by the way is not representative of how Canadians view gun control. I remember they were outspoken in the Montague case, which puts them outside the mainstream. The fact is that most Canadians across the political spectrum support gun control, even if they differ over the details.

The article does not say btw that strict gun control is considered a Canadian cultural value. It actually says, "Government policies such as publicly funded health care, higher taxation to redistribute wealth, the outlawing of capital punishment, strong efforts to eliminate poverty, strict gun control, and the legalization of same-sex marriage are further social indicators of Canada's political and cultural values." I do not see anything wrong with that statement.

TFD (talk) 02:07, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree with Four Deuces, I doubt the majority of Canadians even know the NFA exists, much less subscribe to any part of its agenda. The statement on cultural values is correct in its context, perhaps a little long winded, but not inaccurate. Mediatech492 (talk) 03:36, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

TFD, I am unclear how simply referencing a political parties policies and actions constitutes a 'strong viewpoint'?

Also, the popularity of the NFA is irrelevant. How popular is the Coalition for Gun Control outside of Montreal, Quebec? I would gamble they do not have any members in Alberta. The NFA has members across Canada and is also a registered government lobby group. The CGC is not. Alongside the NFA, there also exists the Canadian Shooting Sports Association (CSSA). Excuse my sarcasm, but for a country that has a 'culture of gun control' it seems strange it would have two active national pro firearms organizations. If we want to go back to comparing Canada to the USA, that's double!

The aim of Wikipedia is to provide objective information. Opinion must be avoided. TFD, you've stated an opinion that a majority of Canadians support gun control, but there is no proof. However, current history and legislation proves that Canadians no longer even support the controls they had (Repeal of LGR links already posted). If you were to read what has already been discussed, Canadians' views on gun control are constantly shifting and extremely varied throughout the nation. Lastly, the very label 'Gun Control' is subjective and only relative to what (province, country, etc.) it is compared to, as also previously discussed.

This is at the heart of what is wrong with including gun control as a Canadian cultural value. It simply isn't. As I have previously stated, "When describing the culture of Canada we must be true to the beliefs, social norms, and traits that are shared and accepted throughout the nation. Topics that are found to be controversial throughout Canada should not be listed as valued by the whole."JackCommons (talk) 21:06, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

JackCommons, the text does not say gun control is a cultural value but that it is an indicator of Canada's political and cultural values. Presumably the value it reflects is order. Here is a link to a 2003 Environics poll that says 58% of Canadians "strongly support" federal which gun control legislation. You are setting up strawmen btw. Strong support for gun control does not mean that one belongs to a gun control organization or support the LGR. Part of Canadian values is the expectation that government will make the correct decisions, hence no need for citizen activism. TFD (talk) 18:13, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I think it's sad that a handful of people with internet savvy can shape how a visitor to the Canadian page on Wikipedia views our country. Canada has more strict gun control than America, yes, as it has been shown in the many useless links above. However, if you actually looked into the system in place it is very easy to buy a non restricted firearm in Canada. You simply take a weekend course, don't have a criminal record, pass the test and you can buy as many non restricted guns and ammo you want. Restricted firearms have a couple paperwork hoops to jump through, but they are also fairly simply to attain if you are an honest citizen. That does not sound like a strict cultural value to me. It sounds like something written by an uninformed citizen with a narrow view of Canada. Robert from BC (talk) 15:04, 30 July 2013 (UTC) — Robert from BC (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

The article does not say that strict gun control is a "strict cultural value" or value of any kind. TFD (talk) 15:09, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I have stepped back and given this situation some thought. This debate has done nothing but prove how controversial and subjective the term "gun control" is. Would there be any agreement on replacing the phrase "gun control" with "responsible gun ownership"? I believe this is what truly separates Canada from many other countries. It is not that Canada has 'strict gun control,' but that Canadians' value responsibility and safety when it comes to firearms and promote this through reasonable legislation. I believe this phrase better explains the current situation and also serves to respect the broad views of Canadians on this issue. eg: "Canadian Government policies such as; publicly funded health care, higher and more progressive taxation, outlawing capital punishment, strong efforts to eliminate poverty, an emphasis on cultural diversity, responsible gun ownership, and most recently legalizing same-sex marriage – are social indicators of Canada's political and cultural values." ."JackCommons (talk) 21:23, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

"Responsible gun ownership" normally implies a right to keep and bear arms. Canadian courts have decided that that right was not incorporated into the Canadian constitution. TFD (talk) 15:07, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

What we tell Americans when they move here - Terese Loeb Kreuzer; Carol Bennett (2007). How to Move to Canada: A Primer for Americans. St. Martin's Press. p. 13. ISBN 978-1-4299-0625-8. Canada's Parliament passed a strict gun control bill in 1991..... and what the 19th Prime Minister of Canada a conservative had to say in relation to it being a cultural value - Beth Slaney (1996). The Darling Diaries: Memoirs of a Political Career. Dundurn. p. 1. ISBN 978-1-55488-321-9. Kim Campbell said yesterday that the gun control legislation expected to be passed today is a reflection of a unique Canadian culture.. The term "Responsible gun ownership" is simply not used in Canada except by the one lobbyist group - the term is simply not in the history books in relation to Canada. -- Moxy (talk) 19:38, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

That lobbyist group argues that Canadians have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms. ("That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law...." Bill of Rights 1689) TFD (talk) 02:57, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Wow.... Anyway, I suggest that our SPA back away from the dead horse. Dbrodbeck (talk) 03:35, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The Bill of Rights of 1689 has no legal application to Canadian law as the Charter of Rights and Freedoms overrides all previous legislation. Even if it were applicable that passage cited above would have to be declared unconstitutional as it discriminates on religious grounds. Mediatech492 (talk) 05:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually the Charter overrides all previous legislation except the Constitution. Hence the Supreme Court determined that separate schools and the succession act both violated the Charter but were lawful because they were part of the constitution. But some imperial laws, such as the Limitation Act 1623, remain valid until changed by federal or provincial legislatures. The 1623 act remains in force federally except where legislation provides different limitation periods but has been replaced in its entirety in Ontario, most recently by the Limitations Act 2002. The Bill of Rights 1689 is in the latter category. TFD (talk) 05:35, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

That is nonsense, the Charter is entrenched in the Constitution, so they are the same document. You cannot be in contravene of the Charter without contravening the Constitution and vice versa. What is overridden by the Charter is by definition unconstitutional. Mediatech492 (talk) 15:27, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

See O'Donohue v. Canada: "It is well settled that the Charter cannot be used to amend or trump another part of our constitution...."[1] TFD (talk) 16:19, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

That applies only to the Constitution of Canada Act 1982 itself, no other document. Especially one that is legally invalid. Mediatech492 (talk) 20:01, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The preceding sentence says, "In the present case all parties acknowledge that if the impugned portions of the Act of Settlement have constitutional status then the matter is not justiciable." The Act of Settlement 1701 is not part of the Constitution of Canada Act 1982 itself, but cannot be invalidated by the Charter because it is part of the Constitution. I do not know to which "legally invalid document" you refer. TFD (talk) 21:24, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Obviously the legally invalid document is the Bill of Rights of 1689, which quite obviously is a different document than the Act of Settlement 1701. Apples and oranges. Mediatech492 (talk) 01:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I did not say it was did I. In fact I said the 1689 act was an imperial act that was not part of the constitution but that the Canadian Firearms Association said it was. It was a valid law, but as I said has probably been entirely overwritten by subsequent federal and provincial laws. Don't really know what your point is. TFD (talk) 01:46, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Anthem sound file

Moved from "Talk:O Canada" [2] -- Moxy (talk) 14:59, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

The fact that this is even an issue is a bad joke. As a Canadian, I find the American version to be the best available version. Who cares if it was done by the US Navy? I am somewhat embarrassed that the article doesn't have an audio sample and embarrassed that this non-issue has warranted such a huge discussion. Get a grip Wikipedia. Barinade2151 (talk) 11:44 pm, Yesterday (UTC−4)

Pls see Talk:Canada/Archive 22#Add Audio For Oh Canada - with that seen - I do agree they have been jammed into every country article like this one and we are the odd balls now. However would need to use a proper version as the American one is off key ...and the words are what are important in this case. See what others have to say since its been a year and a bit.Moxy (talk) 15:11, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the US Navy file is substandard, they are simply playing the tune by the numbers and while they get most of the notes right there is no inspiration to it. The claim that it is the best available is simply ludicrous. Mediatech492 (talk) 15:30, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

It's not only an issue of patriotism, it's an issue of correctness. The US Navy seem to have made-up their own polyphony to the song. It is not a version that most Canadians would consider "authentic". Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:03, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Proposal: Canada's total land area should also be mentioned in the intro

The article's intro currently has this passage: "Canada is the world's second-largest country by total area, and its common border with the United States is the world's longest land border shared by the same two countries." I think it should be modified with the added info that Canada is the fourth-largest country by land area alone. While the term "total area" is technically accurate, it is also misleading because it is not qualified. Most readers would naturally assume that "total area" is more or less the same as Canada's "land area". But the fact is that %10 of Canada's area is water, and its land area is smaller than the land area of the US and China. The distinction between "total" and "land" area is extremely important, and yet the current intro doesn't express this. The term "total area" is so generic and it's position in the phrase so unobtrusive that many readers probably wouldn't even register it.theBOBbobato (talk) 18:48, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Most sources use total land and inland waters. See for example the CIA Fact-book.[3] Otherwise we have to change the land areas for spring run-off, flooding, damming of rivers and droughts. TFD (talk) 21:53, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

And we should continue to use the total area figure - but we should add the land area figure to avoid misunderstandings.theBOBbobato (talk) 17:36, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Can we change the anthem audio file to the one that's on the Spanish Wikipedia page?

It's far better than the midi that's currently being used. --70.74.165.48 (talk) 21:07, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

There is currently a discussion about removing them from all country articles at Template talk:Infobox country#RFC: Audio links to national anthems. So lets wait for the outcome.

The Spanish one is not "better". It's certainly more clear, but the harmonies are not what most Canadians would expect so that makes it worse. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:00, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

File:Coat of Arms of Canada.svg

After seeing File:Coat of Arms of Canada.svg added to this C article again i realized its all over the other language Wiki's. I dont think its a good idea that we have this at all. Misrepresenting /original research of an official symbol is simply not what we are here to do. -- Moxy (talk) 22:43, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't know that a deletion request on the commons on the grounds that it's inaccurate will work. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:52, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

That file is not inaccurate, it incorporates all of the essential heraldic elements properly. There are more elaborate versions of the Coat of Arms [4] available but the only differences are in the detailing, not the essentials. Furthermore I don't know if they are free for use or not. Mediatech492 (talk) 01:14, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Is it accurate when the one depicted here is that which was drawn by Fraser Herald of the Canadian Heraldic Authority and approved by the Queen? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 16:05, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

That one was made by Cathy Bursey-Sabourin (Fraser Herald is her title, not her name). But unfortunately it's a non-free image. Any rendering of the Canadian coat of arms is accurate if it accurately draws the elements described in the standard. There are many accurate renderings of the Canadian COA, and anyone could make one. There is only one rendering that is the official rendering, but it's non-free, so we can't use it here. – Quadell ^(talk) 17:45, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes. I'm aware the "official" version on Wikipedia is non-free. That one on Commons may be accurate in that it technically reflects the blazon; however, I question whether it's as accurate as we require in an encyclopaedia, given it doesn't reflect the official and royally approved version. I don't think it is and wonder why one that is can't be made. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 19:03, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia not a comic book. We should not mislead our readers with fake renderings of Official symbols. If we cant use it then we should not have one...we should not make one up and pass it of as a real symbol. This is common sense...just as we would not use an image of a Michael Jackson impersonator to show what Michel looks like. If people want to see it they can do so on the arilce where the rotation of the non fair use one can be used. -- Moxy (talk) 18:07, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

As an aside, I believe that we have truly reached the eschaton as Moxy and Miesianiacal agree on something. I'm sure that's a sign that the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are just around the corner as recorded in some pseudepigraphal book somewhere. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:19, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Coats of arms (like Canada's) are based on an official blazon. A blazon is a text description, and that is the official coat of arms. (It's also in the public domain.) Any artist's rendering, if based on that blazon, is an accurate coat of arms. This is a basic fact you have to understand if you want to understand Vexillology. Canada also has an official rendering of their Coat of Arms. And that's great! But it's not the only accurate rendering.

As an analogy, consider Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. It's a public domain book, and anyone can draw what they think the characters look like. There also exists a specific depiction of Alice, copyrighted by Disney, that Disney might consider "official". You might like this depiction better than one you could make yourself, and Disney might consider theirs "official"... but that doesn't make yours inaccurate. – Quadell ^(talk) 20:12, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Oi! There are a few problems with your example.

1. We italicize books on Wikipedia. We also shouldn't link directly to them in talk pages as we create backlinks and now suddenly editors there may think that there is material that needs to be updated here. This lack of care in formatting is simply another indication that you don't care about the proper display of Canada's coat of arms, or likely any other.
2. Did Mr. Carroll have an official, legally endorsed version of the characters? If he did, then any representation would be an approximation of the official version. If he didn't, then your analogy stands only for other non-official representation of said characters. As we have it here, there is an official representation of the coat of arms and I would suggest that the blazon is a description of it rather than the other way around. If there is a legal representation, all others are merely approximations. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:30, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Its very hard to move forward when commons is working for a different goal. Just wish we could rename the file so Wiki editors dont use it by mistake thinking its the real one. I added a tag waring of this but it was reverted. Simply not sure we can help the other Wikis with this problem if the file is there pretending to be real-- Moxy (talk) 01:11, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I hope that by leaving something here you will finally state what the perceived problem is with this depiction. That is why the tag is reverted, as you have so far been unable to do so. The problem in this case is thus not with Commons. Adelbrecht (talk) 19:31, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry. Could you please explain if you are unable to perceive images or not. It's obvious from a simple examination of the images that the image with royal assent is dramatically different than the hand-drawn SVG image, hence the question. No intention of rudeness. A simple reading of the previous comments will explain that as well. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:19, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I had requested a move but this was also reverted. I dont think much can happen over at commons as the people there are the ones that make theses fake arms thus will never admit to the fact they are misleading readers. update they have added a tag saying its fake. I do understand the point if I had spent hours and hours making theses I would also be upset and try to cock-block any attempts at discrediting the work or its vitality. We will simply have to keep an eye out for these fake images being placed all over again. After looking at other arms I see this has come up in the past with the same conclusion. We may have to look at many others arms for the same problem as I think we have fake versions of arms all over the place. -- Moxy (talk) 15:46, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, why is using the non-free image a problem? It's a low res version used to illustrate the object in question, and the free version isn't an equivalent since the version drawn by Cathy Bursey-Sabourin is the official rendering. I don't see how this is any different from having the non-free Starbucks logo at the top of the Starbucks page. Why are we working ourselves into a tizzy over a pretty clear cut case of fair use? Orange Tuesday (talk) 14:39, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

We should never ever mislead our readers with non official version of national symbols. -- Moxy (talk) 17:21, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

If the image meets all the basic heraldic criterion required then it is "officially" accurate, and in no way misleading. Mediatech492 (talk) 20:46, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Ok this is the last try for me.... will post images here so all can see the problem. -- Moxy (talk) 17:14, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Version being passed off as looking like the new one but actually looks like this 1957 version with just the the order of Canada ribbon added

This is the real one The new one has changed alot since 1957 like...- Supporters have no gold trim around flags - Helm stylized in the official version to look like maple leaves now and has much more green in it - The new Tudor crown does not have any white in it - the flags are not as tall as the top crown and should never be..noting as tall as the crown.... I can go on .......but I think all can see the problem when side by side

All those differences you mention are stylistic details, not essentials. Despite the difference both images have the essentials and are therefore correct. Mediatech492 (talk) 17:54, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

What??? I am showing you that it does not match the style disruption of the new one....it matches the old one.. If you want to see the new description go to Arms of Canada#Symbolism there you will see the changes to the description that were made in the new version. -- Moxy (talk) 18:07, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

The letters patent, issued in 2005, don't actully say that the mantle, for example, has to be red and white maple leaves, just "a Royal helmet mantled Argent doubled Gules is set upon the shield". --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 15:58, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Population

Population should be: 35,141,542 not 33 million something. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.243.192.184 (talk) 21:43, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Reference? Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:31, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

What is Canada's full name?

Simple Question not answered: what is the Canada's full name? 94.173.220.233 (talk) 18:22, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

The full formal name of Canada is simply "Canada". That is it, nothing else. Mediatech492 (talk) 23:16, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

It was formally known as the Dominion of Canada however. Krazytea(talk) 02:00, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually that is incorrect; "Dominion" was never part of the official title. The term "Dominion" referred to our past status within the British Empire. People often referred to "The Dominion of Canada", but officially it has always been just Canada. See past archive discussion for further details. Mediatech492 (talk) 05:33, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Until we got our own constitution. If you look up at the archive box you'll see two pages devoted to the debate. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:31, 3 October 2013 (UTC)