Talk:Cold fusion

This article was the subject of mediation during 2009 at User_talk:Cryptic C62/Cold fusion.

To the IP editor from Kursk

Edits appear above from IP addresses 109.127.181.110 and 109.127.155.170 both with the same ADSL provider in Kursk. If they are for one person, would you please consider registering an account? Registration is free and actually improves your privacy. It is quite difficult to hold a real discussion with someone whose name and address keeps changing. Details are at wp:WHYREGISTER. If you prefer, you can register on the Russian-language Wikipedia, as accounts carry across between languages. Thank you. LeadSongDog come howl! 16:01, 27 March 2014 (UTC) Nehotela you Zalata fee izibretatelyu grief, and then here in Russia small fees or none at all, you can publish material after talks addressed alexras.82 @ mail.ru Rasulov A.V. Posmotrimte movie about cold fusion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGrTWCcsYk8 In this article, you can take anything you publish yourself, http://www.physical-congress.spb.ru/download/cong10% 2803% 29.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexras82 (talk • contribs) 22:55, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Is any of the preceding contribution by Alexras82, or the content of the previous section, anything to do with 'improving the cold fusion article', the purpose of the talk page? Just wondering. And did the editor's cat type a few extra characters while the editor wasn't looking? --Brian Josephson (talk) 08:59, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

It's likely that Alexras is the IP. Alexras also seems to think that Wikipedia can promote the existence of a fringe journal by reference to a link to the fringe journal, which is of course not correct. Guy (Help!) 09:33, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

You seem to think this page is for profiling other editors in the negative sense. This is combative behavior that can not be confused for trying to work with other editors. 84.107.128.52 (talk) 08:06, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Publications

JCMNS

JzG - - I assume that you will be here in person rather than in 'bot', since you have been forewarned on the Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard ‎ (→‎Cold Fusion: new section)

   "There's some talk page activity suggesting a resumption of the long term POV-push, and 
   our favourite Nobelist is there too. Guy (Help!) 09:41, 27 April 2014 (UTC)"

You (JzG) eliminated a sentence "In 2007 they established their own peer-reviewed journal, the Journal of Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. " based on its link to a "not reliable secondary source" (your claim). If there were a link to a commercial advertisement in the NYT about the JCMNS, instead of the ISCMNS link, would that be acceptable to you?

You are wrong on several counts that betray both your POV or carelessness. Assuming that cold fusion is "fringe" today (with over 4,000,000 hits on Google) and stating that a peer-reviewed journal (JCMNS) is "not reliable" is purely POV (yours or that of those you are supporting). Stating that the link is to the journal rather than to an organization's website (ISCMNS, a reliable secondary source for this purpose) is carelessness. Deleting important material, which had been discussed previously, with only a cryptic and invalid comment is not appropriate: 4 April 2014‎ JzG ... (they created a journal, source: link to the journal. Which is not a reliable secondary source.)

I went through the anti-fringe argument 1.5 years ago in this talk area and no one could come up with a valid reason for maintaining CF as a fringe topic. The topic could be considered "WP:controversial"; but, despite the major effort of the anti-CF group to keep documentation of mainstream research and publication out of the article, considering it to be fringe is untenable. It is only the unwillingness of that group to allow sufficient post-2000 publications to remain in the article that they can convince themselves (and certain administrators) to maintain the charade of their fringe argument. Aqm2241 (talk) 17:54, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Cold fusion is considered fringe "today" for reasons that should be obvious once one reads over WP:RS, WP:NPOV, and, of course, WP:FRINGE. As such, the Journal of Condensed Matter Nuclear Science is as reliable as any "journal" published from within the walled garden of astrology, homeopathy, etc. I.e., Regardless of the number of Google hits produced by the endless number of blogs and websites devoted to the topic, or the number of self-published papers its devotees can produce, without mainstream support, fringe is still fringe. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 18:31, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

ArtifexMayhem - do you consider the CF article to be anti-CF (and therefore mainstream) or neutral, but specific to the topic? If the former, then it should be clearly identified as such. In that case, only a few exceptional articles could be allowed to support the minority view. Since there are mainstream anti-CF views, this would be a legitimate position. However, there are few mainstream descriptions of, or experiments on, the topic (perhaps none since 1991). If this article is a specific article on CF, not 'views on CF', then the balance shifts the other way. The anti-CF references are then the minority and must be held to the higher standard.

If the anti-CF crowd is treating the CF article as a minority and fringe position relative to a mainstream "view," then it needs to be retitled. Are you, or is anyone, authorized to speak for the anti-CF club, to decide what the article is. I would be happy to retitle it, if the decision is that it is a view of, rather than an article on, CF. Too much time and energy has been expended on trying to create an article that must meet different standards from the editors' viewpoints. Aqm2241 (talk) 16:29, 28 April 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aqm2241 (talk • contribs)

Aqm2241 your instance on labeling other editors must stop. You have absolutely no idea what my personal views on the topic are. If you believe I or any other editor is acting in bad faith, as your use of "anti-CF" implies, the take it to the proper venue. Personal attacks, thinly veiled or otherwise, do not improve the article. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 13:35, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

ArtifexMayhem Forgive me if I have misjudged you. You consider yourself an 'honest' skeptic and I can respect that. However, your apparent turning a blind eye to the overt removal of pro-CF mainstream references and external links from the WP:CF article certainly pointed to acceptance of the anti-CF position and actions. Everyone has a POV and I believe few men would object to being labled (women don't seem to like it). There is nothing wrong with being pro- or anti-CF, as long as it does not detract from the article. I see no evidence of bad action in your case (but, to be honest, I haven't looked very hard). I had asked you a question that I thought would clarify some of the problems. If people see the article from different viewpoints, then they will have different expectations.

An earlier discussion had asked whether the article was a 'history' of the Fleischmann Pons effect or more. Was it resolved? If not, we could be having the same problem now. My question was whether CF was considered to be a mainline topic or a fringe topic. The header on the CF talk page says that it is controversial. 'Controversial' requires an attempt at equality. It also requires the controversy to be described. There should be a section in the article devoted to the controversy. If editors perceive the article as fringe, then they should treat it differently than if it is fringe in a mainline article (e.g., a nuclear physics topic) or controversial. What is proper or acceptable editing on one case is vandalism in another. Thus, actions and perceptions unnecessarily polarize the editors. I still have not heard anyone address what they consider the article to be in those terms. The anti-CF group appears to consider CF to be fringe, but the article to be a mainstream subject. I have a problem with that. Maybe it can be resolved.

From WP:PARITY - "Fringe views are properly excluded from articles on mainstream subjects to the extent that they are rarely if ever included by reliable sources on those subjects." I do not believe CF to be a mainstream subject (yet). This article is specific to a non-mainstream topic. Therefore, I consider blocking and deleting of pro-CF views and references (particularly high quality ones) to be vandalism. If you still consider CF claims of excess heat and nuclear reactions to be extraordinary and the CF article to be a mainstream article, then you might even consider arbitrary deletion of pro-CF mainline journal articles to be justified as fighting WP:Undue, because the referenced journals are not 'extraordinary'. While I doubt that I could convince you about the claims, particularly if the appropriate references are 'not allowed', we might come to some agreement about the nature of the article. If all editors came to such agreement, the article could be made 'whole' and perhaps a second one, or second part, could also be agreed upon. Aqm2241 (talk) 12:58, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Still considered fringe in 2013.

I recall that the journal is published by the organizer of the annual CF conference? It should be given preferential treatment among proponent sources. I find it natural to mention the most influential journal in a fringe field, when speaking about publications. --Enric Naval (talk) 21:28, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

How about: no. We know they publish journals for each other, but unless you can find reliable independent sources that establish the significance of these journals, then citing the existence of the journals to the journals themselves is WP:OR and discussing them at all is WP:UNDUE. Guy (Help!) 22:05, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Dear Guy - You clearly seem to think that Cold Fusion is a mainstream article on the subject and therefore pro-CF views and papers are a minority position and fall under the WP:undue ruling. Would you care to defend the title of the article if it considers the cold fusion research to be a majority activity? If CF is a majority activity, could you quote some majority-position research in this area in the last decade? Two decades? If the title were "Cold Fusion in the 20th Century", I would give you a bit more slack. "Cold Fusion in the 21st Century" is a whole new ball game. You say that you have learned about CF from a friend who worked in Fleischmann's lab. If he was not the janitor who cleaned up after one experiment burned its way thru the lab bench and part of the floor, then I would be interested in what he had to say. Perhaps, you could write a letter on what he had to say to the editor of Nature and have it, as a tertiary source, become an acceptable reference for the CF article?

You suggest that I am advocating pathological science and that the scientific community considers that is what CF is. I publish and communicate with physicists and engineers in 3 different fields. Most are surprised that CF is still active and are generally interested in the positive results. A few do have the closed mind and POV that you seem to enjoy. For the most part, they are not the ones doing active research. On the other hand, perhaps you have data and many physicist friends that are both knowledgeable on the subject and agree with your POV. Since you are so set against CF and want to eliminate any positive references, why don't you just leave the title and eliminate all but one line, "bullshit", and save us all a lot of grief. I'm sure that you can find a reference for that. It expresses your POV, your OR, and all of the other excuses that the anti-CF club has been using over the years to deny evidence and to convince themselves of their rightness and righteousness. Aqm2241 (talk) 17:45, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

See the arbitration case linked at the head of this page. The world views cold fusion as pathological science, it is not Wikipedia's job to fix that for you. Guy (Help!) 09:45, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Of course it's still considered fringe science. See for example page 176 of the recent book "Philosophy of Pseudoscience: Reconsidering the Demarcation Problem", where cold fusion is cited as an "example of institutionalized fringe science" and where the Journal of Condensed Matter Nuclear Science is specifically mentioned as part of this institutionalization. --Noren (talk) 03:03, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Who are the authors of this recent mentioned book? This labeling "example of institutionalized fringe science" is just rant.--188.27.144.144 (talk) 11:11, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Dear Noren, your reference is very interesting. Note that the author described CF as "institutionalized fringe science." The book is a collection of 24 essays by various experts seeking to identify the distinctions between science and pseudoscience. The essay you referenced is titled "Belief buddies versus critical communities." I find it very interesting that her description of "belief buddies" (p 169, many with "little relevant scholarly training," p. 177, and as a marker for pseudo science, p 179) seems to fit the anti-CF crowd very well. Her description of CF as institutionalized and composed of self-critical, communicating, credentialed, individuals (characteristics of science) gave it "borderline legitimacy" (p 176). Since the anti-CF crowd often takes quotes from pro-CF author's introductions to identify problems with CF research or data, you may as well also. Please put it into the article text, so that we can add a legitimate CF reference (see my comments below). Aqm2241 (talk) 14:09, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I am not a Wikilawyer and sometimes am somewhat slow (naive?). I just realized that the reason that the anti-CF club must remove legitimate sources that are pro-CF is that they have to maintain the fiction that CF is fringe. Then, to show that they are 'neutral', they can allow as many pro-CF as anti-CF references. Thus, they play the game.

We can help them play their game, and still improve the article, by finding as many anti-CF comments as possible. Since the anti-CF crowd would allow (and claim) even blogs as strong tertiary sources (if they fit the proper POV), the pro-CF group could play along just to permit additional legitimate CF-documentation to be referenced in the article. Of course, the discerning reader would see the difference in quality of the references, but the anti-CF crowd is not trying to convince a discerning reader. Since it cannot 'kill' CF, it only wants to preserve the fiction that CF is fringe-science. Furthermore, some of the anti-CF group are less than honest and know that periodically, they can bring in a 'big gun' and just arbitrarily 'erase' many of the pro-CF references to maintain the appearance that CF is still only "fringe" and no real work or progress is happening. For example, I note that all of the Forbes references are now gone. Some sources that are 'legitimate' when publishing anti-CF articles would be labeled as fringe and/or worthless and not be allowed, if publishing non-anti-CF articles (e.g., http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/magazine/physicstoday/news/10.1063/PT.4.2409). However, the anti-CF articles from these same journals must still be retained to keep the WP:NPOV and WP:Fringe charade intact.

Speaking of WP:Fringe, within their own definition, they violate the Wiki tenets: "Fringe theory in a nutshell: To maintain a neutral point of view, an idea that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea. More extensive treatment should be reserved for an article about the idea, which must meet the test of notability. Additionally, when the subject of an article is the minority viewpoint itself, the proper contextual relationship between minority and majority viewpoints must be clear." Clearly the anti-CF group will not allow "more extensive treatment" under any circumstances. (They may even deny the notability of CF, since they apparently believe it is fringe. Apparently, they consider the article to be about the failure of CF - a majority viewpoint? - thus they can claim that they are only suppressing "undue weight.")

I also note that there is no section in the CF article on why people should be interested in the success of CF (cheap energy, little or no radioactive waste, reduction in green-house gases, no concern about strip-mining or fracking, off-grid living) and no figures indicating demonstrated levels of power and energy generation (e.g., last figure in http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2013/05/20/finally-independent-testing-of-rossis-e-cat-cold-fusion-device-maybe-the-world-will-change-after-all/). Aqm2241 (talk) 11:21, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

That's covered in commentaries, but you can't say there would be little or no nuclear waste because it's pure conjecture, there's no actual evidence of a nuclear process at all so conjecture about the level of waste is not going to fly. Guy (Help!) 22:03, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

A major argument against CF (based on the assumption that CF must follow known high-energy D+D fusion patterns) is that there is no proton or neutron radiation commensurate with the heat produced in the claimed D+D => 4He fusion reaction (see note 4 in the article). The fact that nuclear ash (protons, neutrons, tritium, 3He and 4He at very low levels) has been observed & reported repeatedly in numerous laboratories proves the nuclear process(es). Aqm2241 (talk) 12:25, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Problem was, they didn't detect all at the same time. One lab detected ash A but not B, the other lab detected ash B but not A, etc. I read this in a source, but I don't remember which one......

Even when detecting the same ash, the ash/power ratio was different. I am not sure if I read this in a source. --Enric Naval (talk) 15:49, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

This fluctuational behaviour seems to be a defining feature of chaotic systems where the same initial condition does not produce the same effects.--82.137.14.162 (talk) 10:50, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

It's also consistent with random experimental error. Don't forget old William and his useful cutlery. Guy (Help!) 21:03, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

In such case, the same group would detect different ashes on each one of their cells, right? And the same ash would be detected at different ratios on each cell.

Instead, each group is detecting the same ash in all their cells, which have the same initial conditions. That's suggestive of problems in procedures: group A uses a method that overcounts background-levels of ash A, group B doesn't realize there is contamination from ash B in one step, group C measures ash C with an uncalibrated or inadequate measurers, etc. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:30, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Once the finding can be replicated independently without the need for True Believers taking part, I am sure it will be published in the peer reviewed journals. Until then... Guy (Help!) 09:42, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Replication has not have to be 100%, it can have a frequency distribution like other stochastic and processes such as earthquakes occurrence, wind intensity, composition of fission products. A statistical replicability seems to be an experimental fact that needs to be considered as intrinsic feature of the phenomena.--82.137.14.162 (talk) 10:50, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

It has to be consistently reproducible, or a compelling argument has to be made as to why it usually fails. Guy (Help!) 21:09, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

100% reproducibility seems an excessive demand. There are stochastic phenomena like wind intensity distribution and earthquakes frequency which have an intrinsic random occurrence. To give an additional example of a more similar nature to cold fusion namely nuclear, the composition of nuclear fission products at a given momemnt is not reproducible for two nuclear fission reactors operating simultaneously at the same time or for the same reactor successively. The composition of nuclear fission products is the statistical averaging of individual fission events of single nuclei. No one is insisting that the composition of fission products should be reproducible.--82.137.9.236 (talk) 19:20, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

See my comment above....... Each cell is an independent reactor. If your theory was correct then each cell would be giving different products. We wouldn't have each group reporting that all their active cells give the same products. Products would be different for each ell, not for each group. (This has derived into unsourced comparisons of personal theories, and talk pages are to discuss changes to the article, not for discussion of the topic, etc., etc.. It has been good, I can't encourage this behaviour by continuing the discussion. These discussions belong to the vortex-l mailing list and other such forums, not to wikipedia's article pages. Please go there to find people interested in discussing this, and forums that welcome this type of discussion). --Enric Naval (talk) 22:32, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Nobody needs to do anything to maintain the impression that CF is fringe: it is fringe. A very good friend of mine worked in Fleischmann's lab back in the day, I am quite well informed on this. You are advocating pathological science, and Wikipediua is not the place to fix the fact that the scientific community in general considers you to be doing this. Guy (Help!) 21:51, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

It would be interesting to know the name of your friend and whether he has published some articles on some (negative) results.--82.137.14.162 (talk) 12:14, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

He has never published anything on this, as far as I know. I know he did some work for Fleischmann (I remember the jokes about the "thermonuclear shield", a ceramic basin covering the apparatus in case of boiling water ejection) but his publications are primarily on biosensors. Oh, and the current standard undergraduate text on analytical chemistry. You can Google him: Professor Séamus Higson. I bet him a fiver he'd be a full professor before the age of 40 and I collected it at his inaugural lecture :-) I also showed him our FA version of this article; he said it was a fair and accurate. A lot of special pleading has been added since. I haven't asked him recently, but he shakes his head ruefully when the topic is mentioned: he liked Martin Fleischmann and largely blamed Pons for the science-by-press-release fiasco and the race with Jones, which trashed a formerly very sound career. Guy (Help!) 21:09, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I see that there is a Séamus mentioned in Archive 5 of this talk page, but not his full name.--82.137.8.198 (talk) 15:58, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Specialised journals

This should be mentioned and detailed. The article mentions them as a cluster of specialized journals like International Journal of Hydrogen Energy, Journal of Physical Chemistry, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.53.199.249 (talk) 23:18, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Template Housekeeping

The template at the top of this talk page referring to sanctions linked to the wrong ArbCom case, which had to do with climate change. I have changed it to link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience, because cold fusion is considered by the mainstream scientific community to be fringe science or pseudoscience as usually defined. There was also an ArbCom case entitled Cold Fusion, but it was decided after Pseudoscience and resulted in a few editors being topic-banned. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:19, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

How do you parse the enforcement provision in the link you deleted "1) The cold fusion article, and parts of any other articles that are substantially about cold fusion, are subject to discretionary sanctions." (the original ruling includes that wikilink to this article) as the wrong ruling having 'to do with climate change?' The Abd-WMC case was resolved years after the Pseudoscience case, and the arbitration committee found it necessary at that time to make it utterly clear that sanctions apply to this article whether or not someone chooses to argue whether or not this topic is pseudoscience. (In fact, you'll see from the current talk page that some still actively dispute this categorization.) It is therefore useful to link to the decision which specifically nails down that this particular article is subject to sanctions whether or not one considers it to be pseudoscience. Things get muddy because the committee decided to retroactively merge logging of enforcement with the earlier pseudoscience case for purposes of simplifying recordkeeping ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment&oldid=484342294#Request_to_amend_prior_case:_Discretionary_sanctions_in_cases_named_after_individual_editors ). However, I think there is value in maintaining the link to the Cold Fusion-specific ruling to avoid misunderstandings... after all, this article was problematic enough that the arbitration committee found it necessary to single this page out for sanctions years after the pseudoscience ruling had been in effect. Perhaps all three should be linked in the template? --Noren (talk) 23:29, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I had been looking at a different William M. Connolley case. My mistake. The case does indeed involve cold fusion, and explicitly states that cold fusion is subject to discretionary sanctions. The pseudoscience discretionary sanctions are also applicable. I agree that both cases should be cited, and possibly the Cold Fusion case, although it did not restate the sanctions. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:28, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Pretending something is pseudoscience while it is not is a great example of unacceptable behavior. 84.107.128.52 (talk) 07:56, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Pretending that something is science while it is pseudoscience is also problematical, and is subject to discretionary sanctions. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:21, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Content handling

I also notice a suggestion by Enric Naval that is not complying with all guidelines, that technical content should be managed without understanding of topics edited. Insistance of editing certain topics with undestanding them is becoming disruptive and vandalism.--193.254.231.34 (talk) 10:28, 28 May 2014 (UTC) |}

Second DOE report

The analysis of the second DOE report should be more detailed in the article.--188.27.144.144 (talk) 16:24, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Ok, what specific change to the article are you proposing.--McSly (talk) 17:45, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps the best proposal in this case is adding some details from the mentioned available sources like the report proper and Choi and Feder. Especially the paragraph 4 from Feder is interesting to cite.--94.53.199.249 (talk) 21:12, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Edit Warring and Disruption on Talk Page

The editing of this talk page is disruptive and involves talk page edit warring. There have been too many allegations of disruptive editing of this talk page, which are themselves disruptive. There has been a silly edit war as to whether to insert or remove a list of publications. There is no reason given for removing the material. Personal attacks, trolling, or disruptive material may be removed, but there is no need to remove a list of questionable publications. Stop edit warring. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:33, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

There are statements being made by unregistered editors that cold fusion is no longer considered fringe science. Those statements are simply contrary to scientific consensus. If the unregistered editors are here to make the case that cold fusion is no longer considered fringe science, they are wasting electrons. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:33, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

It seems that some users (registered or not is not important) are just wondering if the statement of cold fusion being considered fringe can be take for granted as if it were an axiom. One cannot dogmatically accept this assertion and want to see what is its base by analyzing sources that seem to be doing this labeling. This is a reasonable way to proceed.--94.53.199.249 (talk) 07:07, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi, I was asked to comment here. I'm not sure what is happening, but I see in this diff there was a re-posting of old archived material that was unlikely to be helpful. 94.53.199.249, if you have a suggestion, it's best to post a fresh request under a new section title, but try to avoid repeating requests that you know have been made before, unless you have new sources or a new argument. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:47, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Policy on Non Peer Reviewed Journal Articles

I would first like to point out a flaw in the coverage of this article, which I'm sure has been pointed out in full before now, however I will bring it up again and expect a reasoned and reasonable response from level headed wikipedia seniors and not a reactionary response involving name calling and abuse as has occurred on this talk page previously. I also fully admit that I am not a regular wikipedia contributor, but am a scientist (an academic Engineering Geologist and Biologist).

Regarding the current war on this article because of a POV issue regarding a sliding scale with 'believers' on one side and 'blind rejecters' on the other separated by a healthy amount of middle ground people as well, I respect those that have the viewpoint that Wikipedia should only support reliable sources and enforce that policy.

However it should be noted that there is a group of researchers actively researching cold fusion claims. As most users who frequent this talk page well know. These scientists, despite a wish to do so, and a strict adherence to scientific method, regardless of whether their paper supports or does not support the subject cannot be accepted by peer reviewed mainstream journals or by the patent process. This results in an unfair situation in which those wishing to investigate the field within the realm of scientific endeavour will be unable to publish regardless of the outcome of their experiment, this is unscientific (the previous sentence is original research, but is included for context). This has resulted in this entire field writing articles and publishing them in journals that are reviewed only by other CF scientists or by self publishing without peer review, this is a damn shame but unavoidable given the wider scientific consensus.

QUESTION: Does this mean that we are categorically not allowed to post information form these articles?

From what I have read regarding fringe policy on wikipedia... it appears not, see the following comment:

Journals that are not peer reviewed by the wider academic community should not be considered reliable, except to show the views of the groups represented by those journals.

-from Wikipedia:Fringe under the heading 'Peer-reviewed sources help establish the level of acceptance'

This indicates that these sources may be included, so long as it is noted that the views are those of the group of researchers from that journal and not of the wider scientific community.

1. The above sentence seems to indicate that a lot of information that has been gathered by researchers in non peer reviewed journals that has perviously been denied access to the article by that (unavoidable) status should be included in this article, under a heading of 'non peer reviewed material' of course.

2. While I realise that the Scientific Community is of the consensus that CF is not real, I also note that this article is NOT a science article, its is a FRINGE article. Therefore under different rules regarding the inclusion of non peer reviewed journal articles. It appears to me that this policy has not been followed, given the apparent removal of nearly all information in the article not directly opposing cold fusion or else related to the original 1989 experiments and immediate aftermath (as opposed to what I remember about the article state 1 year ago, widom-larsden theory info comes to mind, and I would be curious to know why it was removed.)

3. Within the article, few references to the ongoing work in this community is mentioned, and where mentioned the comments seem to be always cited from a highly derisive point of view from some mainstream source, rather than any citation from a primary source (which of course would be non peer reviewed due to peer reviewed journal policy).

possible solution: I suggest that following the guideline above from Wikipedia:Fringe more primary sources from non-peer reviewed JOURNAL articles be included in a new section entitled 'Ongoing Fringe Research' or something similar. Always of course form the point of view or noting that this research is the views of the group represented by that journal and not of the wider scientific community.

NOTE: caution must be taken, as 'believers' may attempt to use any change in policy to insert quite a lot of unreliable stuff, HOWEVER, this should be balanced against the outright rejection of all sources by 'blind rejecters' which is also unacceptable. (note that the two terms used in the previous sentence are my own personal opinion and should not be construed as derision of a wikipedia user's personal character, rather they are labels based on my own scientific belief in impartiality and the weighing of all information regardless of source based on its own merits and credibility)

as stated above I would like some responses from moderators regarding these interpretations and consider any comments mocking my personal character to by highly unacceptable.Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 06:57, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

I guess my point is that it is the purpose of an encyclopaedia to inform. This article is not informing readers about any ongoing research, and mentions that research in one sentence in the summary which is written from a viewpoint that implies that these scientists are completely unreliable. Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 07:08, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

The way to think about this is to consider the hundreds of other contentious topics at Wikipedia. Suppose a reader who knows little about Shakespeare beyond standard high school education developed an interest in whether Shakespeare's plays were really written by Shakespeare. Would they want to spend time studying Shakespeare authorship question knowing it was based on the work of proponents of extreme minority viewpoints? Or, would the reader be better served if the article were based on reliable sources published by acknowledged experts in the field? To put it another way, no, this article will not have a section written by editors who select primary sources in order to advance a position. In the future, please restrict commentary to article content because the amount of soapboxing and irrelevant chatter on this page is tedious. Johnuniq (talk) 07:22, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

your analogy is not really relevant, but that aside, you didn't answer my question regarding the policy that I cited. This IS commentary on article content... I'm saying that theres content missing. The only reliable experts in the field of cold fusion today have no way to publish in a reliable source. (note i am not saying all CF researchers are reliable, i am merely noting that if there was such a thing, they would not be able to publish in a reliable source)Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 07:32, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Seeing this discussion I have to underline in this context that the article mentions some (cluster of) peer reviewed journals. Articles from the mentioned journals could be used to add further content details. These are reputable journals.--94.53.199.249 (talk) 07:45, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

is it this quote 'Cold fusion reports continued to be published in a small cluster of specialized journals like Journal of Electroanalytical Chemistry and Il Nuovo Cimento. Some papers also appeared in Journal of Physical Chemistry, Physics Letters A, International Journal of Hydrogen Energy, and a number of Japanese and Russian journals of physics, chemistry, and engineering.[105] Since 2005, Naturwissenschaften has published cold fusion papers; in 2009, the journal named a cold fusion researcher to its editorial board.' that you refer to? if so I agree.Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 07:50, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Doing some research it seems that a review article was conducted by Edmund Storms in Naturwissenschaften.

Storms, Edmund, "Status of Cold Fusion (2010)," Naturwissenschaften, 97:861–881, (2010)

with several followup replies

Krivit, Steven. B., "Nuclear Phenomena in Low-Energy Nuclear Reaction Research," Naturwissenschaften. DOI 10.1007/s00114-013-1080-z, (Aug. 15, 2013)

Storms, Edmund, "Efforts to Explain Low-Energy Nuclear Reactions," Naturwissenschaften, DOI 10.1007/s00114-013-1101-y (Oct. 30, 2013)

these are reputable sources are they not? and can be used to create a new section about the current state of research summed up by this article and its followup comments.Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 08:08, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

moreover he repeatedly cites his own book as a source of additional information (as an even more comprehensive review) http://www.amazon.com/Science-Energy-Nuclear-Reaction-Comprehensive/dp/9812706208 would this be considered a reliable source, as it seems to be being considered by Naturwissenschaften? Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 08:27, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Huizenga quotes

I see that there are a quite large number of quotes in the article from Huizenga's book. I think those quotes are insufficient to establish the context and validity of Huizenga's statements. The quotes should be more detailed. Those w'editors that have access to the book are asked to provide more details.--188.27.144.144 (talk) 10:20, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Since you apparently don't have access to Huizenga's book, could you please explain specifically why it is that you believe his work has been misrepresented? Or if you don't believe that there is any misrepresentation, why it is that you would like to send the other editors of this page on an extensive scavenger – or snipe – hunt? Beyond the bare fact that you don't like what he has to say, I mean? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:09, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

I have already explain what is the misrepresentation in a section that has been hastily archived. I'll explain shortly. The main misrepresentation is that related to Nernst equation.--188.27.144.144 (talk) 13:25, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Or...not. You've been bringing out the same stuff from the archives on a semi-monthly basis since at least August 2013. Most of the time, you copy-paste it out, maybe add a comment, then it gets archived again after a month or so of failing to gain any traction. Seriously, there are four copies of the section "Huizenga's reasoning to Nernst equation missinterpretation" in Talk:Cold fusion/Archive 45, and one more in Talk:Cold fusion/Archive 46. Please stop cluttering this talk page and wasting the time of other editors. You obviously don't have anything new to add this time around, either; stop beating the dead horse. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:10, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Taubes quotes

I also notice that there are many quotes from Gary Taubes's book? More details should be added to establish the context and validity of his statements.--188.27.144.144 (talk) 10:35, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Since you apparently don't have access to Taubes' book, could you please explain specifically why it is that you believe his work has been misrepresented? Or if you don't believe that there is any misrepresentation, why it is that you would like to send the other editors of this page on an extensive scavenger – or snipe – hunt? Beyond the bare fact that you don't like what he has to say, I mean? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:09, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

There are here also several mispresentations that now I have not enough time to explain in detail.--188.27.144.144 (talk) 13:27, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

So you're expecting other editors to go through every reference on the page, since you won't say which ones you have an issue with (or explain why), and guess at the type and amount of additional detail will satisfy you? Not cool. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:58, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

My time schedule does not allow for the moment further explanations.--188.27.144.144 (talk) 14:03, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Well then get around to it when you can, don't expect others to do it for you. Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 20:04, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

New reference - CF is rejected by mainstream

FYI - those who want to, you might consider including:

Y. Liu, R. Rousseau, "Towards a representation...", Information Processing and Management, 48, (2012), 791

as a ref to the mainstream rejection of CF. Quotes:

"These are clear indications that the theory of cold fusion is not accepted." - Section 9. "The Fleischmann-Pons article provides a case of an immediate explosion of attention, soon followed by the rejection of the ideas proposed in it." - Conclusions Kirk shanahan (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 16:16, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

for the full title "Towards a representation of diffusion and interaction of scientific ideas: The case of fiber optics communication" i don't see how this is a relevant source, from what i can tell this guy is neither a Chemist, Physicist, nor a Cold Fusion Researcher and the subject matter is not about CF. The article already has plenty of sources to the mainstream rejection of CF in the Fleischmann-Pons aftermath, however, you might note that not all mainstream journals reject CF. In Storms (2010) review of cold fusion in Naturwissenschaften, in his conclusion he states:

"Where does the field of study stand at present? First of all, a large number of studies (Storms 2007) reporting production of large amounts of power and energy are now available for evaluation." and "Therefore, the claimed occurrence of unusual nuclear reactions under conditions thought not to cause such reactions is supported."

see [[1]] if you'd like to read it yourself. Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 19:12, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

I would like to know if someone can find a recent comprehensive review that is published in a mainstream peer-reviewed-journal that can be used as a source offering the counterpoints to those offered in Storms (2010) as I am considering writing a new section based on the current status of CF offered in this journal article. any help is appreciated. Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 19:33, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

That would be nice. Unfortunately, the marginalization of this subject means that there is only supportive literature of it. Normal skepticism, devil's advocacy, and careful review simply do not exist for the field. This is unfortunate, but that's simply the way things will remain until, for example, SPAWAR, ENEA, McCubre, etc. get their work published in Nature or Science or somesuch. jps (talk) 21:08, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Disruptive Editing of Talk Page - Further Reminder

I have been told that disruptive editing of talk pages for articles that are subject to discretionary sanctions is subject to discretionary sanctions. The posting of walls of text to this talk page is disruptive editing. If the reason that the unregistered editors are here is to get this article rewritten to state that cold fusion is considered science rather than fringe science, then they are wasting electrons. Any further disruptive posts will be reported to arbitration enforcement, and possibly to sockpuppet investigations. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:25, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

if you are referring to me, noted regarding the amount of text in my previous section. Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 20:20, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

I was referring to the IPs, and I did not consider your comments to be disruptive. However, you have been notified. As the template notes, it does not imply any misconduct on your part. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:16, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Adding a paragraph on Reproducibility

I would like to add this:

A review of the subject by Storms in 2010 suggests that the reactions do not occur uniformly throughout the electrode but rather in small sites referred to as ‘Nuclear Active Sites’, the exact nature of which is not well understood. “Because the number of these sites is variable, many failures are experienced when no active sites are present… Often, failed replication results when important nano-structures are not present, conditions that are very difficult to reproduce reliably.”

to the bottom of the section on 'Reproducibility', anyone have a problem with this? source is: Storms, Edmund, "Status of Cold Fusion (2010)," Naturwissenschaften, 97:861–881, (2010) [[2]] Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 20:14, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

This text and source are not okay. The source is not an independent source as would be required for such a claim. Naturwissenschaften's editorial review of cold fusion is controlled by Storms himself which means that there hasn't been adequate peer review of this statement. jps (talk) 21:05, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

(ec) I would be reluctant to give much weight to this publication. It appears in a journal with a relatively modest impact factor (2.278), but more troubling is that the paper appears to be well outside the journal's usual scope and competence; Naturwissenschaften is specifically dedicated to papers in the general biological sciences. If you look at other papers published by this journal, this one is pretty emphatically an outlier.

Moreover, Storms is certainly not offering an unbiased take on the field; he's a true believer who is using a review article to push his personal point of view. (And he's pretty far out on the fringe, even for a cold fusion proponent. About the only 'biology' aspect of his Naturwissenschaften paper – and presumably the wedge by which he managed to get the paper kinda-sorta in-scope for publication – is his enthusiastic embrace of the notion that living creatures have harnessed low-energy nuclear transmutation to produce required minerals—despite an utter lack of convincing evidence.)

Finally, experienced Wikipedia editors will also cringe to note that Storms specifically acknowledges the contributions of User:Abd and User:JedRothwell to his manuscript. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:24, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Another issue is that an article at Wikipedia is not the place to debate why some experiments may have failed to reproduce results. The take-home message in an encyclopedic article like this is that there are no reproducible results, and there is no mainstream support for the reported phenomenon. The article may benefit from the addition of findings from an independent source, known for its reliability in the field, if that source were to assert that various reproducibility experiments were flawed for certain reasons. However, an article at Wikipedia is not available for the promotion of fringe ideas by diluting the fact that results have not been reproduced with suggestions for why such failures occur. Johnuniq (talk) 00:12, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

First, I am 100% certain that nowhere in the world does the scientific review process does not allow one to peer review ones own work, despite Storms being on the editorial review board of Naturwissenschaften, due to ethics he personally would not have had anything to do with the peer review process for this paper, and to suggest so is at best original research on your part. I admit that him being on the review board would certainly have had an impact on the paper being accepted for review, HOWEVER, remember that Storms was put on the review board knowingly by the rest of the scientists at Naturwissenschaften and they personally OKed this paper. it is Original research to suggest that the article in question, from a reliable journal, is not a reliable paper. unless you can find a source that says so of course. Saying that he 'wedged' the paper in is literally accusing of academic misconduct, of which there is (to my knowledge) no evidence.

User Johnuniq has a point however and I will not add this section, however Storms 2010 meets all criteria for a reliable source. to say otherwise undermines the whole idea of a reliable source in wikipedia standards. it is not YOUR job to decide whether an article from a reliable peer reviewed journal is a reliable source. It just is. If you are calling it a 'biased source', may I remind you that wikipedia policy recommends the inclusion of opinionated sources (Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#Biased_or_opinionated_sources). I am not convinced that it is a biased source but that is the only guideline that even marginally applies from Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources that you might be using to call this source unreliable. Furthermore, avoiding 'undue weight' recommends the use of review articles, which this is, please read Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#Scholarship and don't waste my time pushing your POV.Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 04:34, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

A discussion on whether this source is biased or unbiased would be useful as it bears importance on how information from it is written about in the article. However, this does not have any bearing on whether the source is reliable or not. please discuss to reach consensus. Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 04:37, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

The question of whether a source is "reliable" always needs to be considered in context—what is the topic of the article? what text would be verified by the source? There is also the question of WP:DUE—even if a source is reliable in a certain context, how does the text/source fit in the article? Those lofty considerations are not required for the source in question because it is clear that the journal and the author are not independent from those who promote cold fusion, and the article already has sufficient coverage of that side. If this article concerned a scientific topic where 40% of those in the field support a particular explanation, 30% support something else, and the remaining 30% think various other things, a source like the one in question might be acceptable as showing the opinion of its author. However, this article has none of those properties. Johnuniq (talk) 06:33, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree entirely with you about the issue of Due and Undue weight, I 'am not' suggesting that this article be rewritten from the point of view of this review paper. this represents 90% of your last post. However, the question of whether the content in this paper is reliable is not affected by due or undue weight. That merely affects how much content in the article is written from the POV of CF supporters. I reiterate, Storm (2010) is a reliable source, and may be cited when weight is due. I think there are a few things in this article that could be a nice addition to the wiki, particularly elements of the conclusion, I'm talking 2-3 sentences, this is not undue weight. Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 07:09, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

My comment, in hindsight, comes off a bit critical and reactionary. Thanks for your input on this matter. Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 07:20, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

The Storms review is only a reliable source for what cold fusion proponents believe and does not qualify as the highest quality source we would use for an evaluation of a subject by WP:FRIND. Note that the text you are advocating is basically a rehash of Storms particular idea that the lack of reproducibility is due to a phenomenon he, as far as I can tell, invented out of whole cloth and is advocated by no one but himself. That there has been no critical review of his claims is simply a side effect of the research into cold fusion being marginalized, but 1) as there was obviously no critical review in place for that article, 2) Naturwissenchaften certainly did not choose a critical reviewer for the article, and 3) the whole point of putting storms on the board was so that he could handle submissions of cold fusion papers and similar subjects to the journal, it's obvious to me that we have a situation where the journal was basically allowing cold fusion promotion to be published unencumbered by critical review. That's not uncommon for medium to low impact journals. I can point to a number of journals which have done the same thing over the years from time to time in a lot of different areas. The idea is that if you relax your review standards you can get more papers published and perhaps increase the standing of the journal. This technique, however, tends to backfire after others notice the pattern. I see that Storms is no longer listed on the editorial board of Naturwissenchaften, for example. I wonder if they decided that this experiment was not in their own best interest. Well, this is speculation, but it is important to go through when evaluating whether sources are reliable for the approaches desired. In this case, I am pretty convinced that this is not a reliable source for anything but Storms' opinions, and you haven't made a convincing case that Storms' opinions should be included in this article. jps (talk) 12:15, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

OBVIOUSLY Storms review is only a reliable source insofar as it represents what CF proponents believe, i have already said this. First 1) what evidence do you have for this? or is this your own opinion? 2) again what evidence do you have for this? I would like to know. 3) accusing someone of putting his own paper through without review is tantamount to accusing of academic misconduct, you had better have some evidence of this you your opinion means exactly nothing. Your wild speculations on whether the source is reliable based on your own POV makes no relevance on the subject at hand, see WIKI:POV and WIKI:Reliable source. I repeat: Storms (2010) is a reliable source insofar as it represents the views of cold fusion proponents. Stop pushing your POV, your opinion has no relevance on reliable source status, its a published paper in a reliable journal. So unless you have EVEIDENCE of professional misconduct and a lack of proper peer review stop waiting my time. Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 15:22, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I have already shown the evidence. That Storms sat on the very editorial board of the medium-impact journal in which he was published is a classic WP:REDFLAG especially when WP:FRIND is concerned. That's all we really need to do. What I'm asking for is for you to find a better source. This one isn't good enough and it is clear that you are the only one who thinks otherwise. jps (talk) 17:03, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

In Wikipedia's medical articles, where I often edit, this type of issue is common enough that it's actually addressed in the guideline for identifying reliable (medical) sources, WP:MEDRS.

"Other indications that a biomedical journal article may not be reliable are [some medicine-specific points] or its content being outside the journal's normal scope."

While not explicitly spelled out in the general WP:RS guideline, this type of publication certainly should raise a flag in any journal. When a biological-sciences journal publishes a fringe physics paper, it's definitely getting out of scope. It is reasonable for us to question whether or not the journal's editors have sufficient relevant expertise to select appropriate, independent peer reviewers and to properly evaluate such reviews as they received. (Remember, even in 'peer reviewed' literature the final decision to publish – or not – rests with the journal editor(s), not with the peer reviewers.)

I remember an instance a couple of years ago where intelligent design (anti-evolution) advocates were pushing for heavy coverage of a paper on irreducible complexity that appeared in the Baylor University Medical Center Proceedings, a small medical journal. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 116#Baylor paper for one of the discussions. Two key concerns raised during that discussion were that the paper fell outside the journal's scope (why would a medical journal with a strong emphasis on clinical results publish a paper on evolutionary theory, and why would we trust it when it does?) and the fact that the paper's author sat on the editorial board, and would therefore have enjoyed more than the usual amount of influence over the decision to publish. (As I noted in that discussion, this type of problem isn't restricted to low- or even medium-profile journals; PNAS managed to publish this silly thing in 2009, for instance.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:16, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Well reasoned but the similarities from that intelligent design paper and Storms (2010) are not analogous, the difference being that the ID paper was an opinion piece that was neither a research paper or review article, meaning that there was nothing to peer review. It bears many similarities to the case however, like you say he is on the editorial board, and an ID paper in a Biomed journal is (somewhat) similar to a CF article in a natural sciences journal. However, the paper in question was seriously derided in two replies to the ID article, the CF review article was criticised only on the grounds that it was TOO critical of several areas of research by not including enough of an in depth discussion. Dr. Joseph Allen Kuhn also was previously the HEAD of the editorial board, meaning that he had a very large influence, Storms was promoted to the board knowingly by the other editors that he was a CF proponent (given that he already had a book written on the subject, meaning that the other editors must at least in majority support his views). I still support that Storms (2010) is a Reliable, Biased source that represents a reliable source of Storm's opinions and (as he is in good standing in the CF community) the larger CF community in general. Therefore the issue of weight due or undue should be heavily considered (at a later time given suggested content inclusion) and note that undue weight should not be given. However, his conclusions in the article could well be given weight of 1-2 sentences as this is the only review article on the subject that has been written in recent years, positively or negatively. Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 00:56, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the situations aren't identical, but they're sufficiently similar to be instructive. On the other hand, since you did spend so much time closely inspecting that old discussion, I'm sure that you also noted another key issue that was raised. To wit, that intelligent design paper had been published only a few months before the discussion, so it was difficult to determine how important or relevant it was perceived to be by the 'experts' in the field.

In dealing with Storms (2010), we don't suffer from that handicap; we can actually look at how often his 2010 paper was cited, and in what ways, to get an idea of whether his perspective is considered useful. Doing a quick search in Google Scholar, we find 16 citations in the four years since publication: [3]. Most of those are not in peer-reviewed journal articles. 7 cites are just Storms referring back to himself in various documents. One cite is a direct response from Steven Krivit (a prominent cold fusion believer), criticizing the original paper; interestingly, Krivit didn't even notice the Storms paper to comment on it until 2013. Another one is Liu and Rousseau's paper on, ironically, citation trends over time ([4]), which had nothing whatsoever to do with cold fusion. Even among the in-universe characters of the cold fusion world, Storms' paper seems to have attracted little attention or respect.

In other (fewer) words, then, we don't have to rely solely on our own evaluation of the quality of Storms' review article. The field of cold fusion researchers have done so for us—and despite being about as sympathetic an audience as Storms might ever hope to find, they have seen fit to ignore it. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 02:44, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

It seems clear to everyone that YES the only reason he could get this review published was because he was put on the review board which in my mind is sad. That the scientific community won't allow any discussion on a topic that has changed quite a lot in the past 20 years. I will note that the citation count is probably pretty irrelevant, as most CF papers aren't actually listed in google scholar. I'm going to give up now as I'm sick of arguing and its making me feel frustrated and i feel this has gone on long enough. Anyone who 'supports' CF even tentatively or sceptically has abandoned these wikipedia articles because of the difficulty of citing anything and don't blame them. I don't blame you guys either you are just following the rules.

I want to ask a question though. What if this wikipedia article is affecting the 'consensus' or overall viewpoint of CF? Wikipedia has grown beyond being a simple encyclopaedia, due in no small part to great contributors such as yourselves. When people want an answer to a question, such as "is there anything to this cold fusion thing that I've heard about?" where is the first place they look? My guess, 90% of the time it is this article. (I wonder if there is a way to check via google records). With that sort of thing happening there isn't much chance of a change without some massive irrefutable event. I am not saying that anything can be done, it is just something to think about. Does wikipedia's stance on Fringe articles affect the entire evolution of that fringe environment given wikipedia's high status? Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 06:40, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia is often a first stop for promoters of fringe ideas of all stripes. Being completely ill-equipped to decide which idea is continental drift and which idea is N-rays, we are stuck being equally cruel to all novel ideas. There are a bunch of Wikipedia policy arguments and essays with respect to this: WP:NOR, WP:RGW, WP:CBALL, WP:MAINSTREAM. The alternative is a free-for-all. That approach may be a good one too (e.g. [5]), but it is not the approach Wikipedia adopted for better or worse. My advice to cold fusion supporters has always been: go effect the change you want to see and come back. Submit your work to high quality journals. Address the reviewers comments if they come back rejected and keep pressing. If it is true and you convinced Robert Duncan on the basis of scientific work alone and not (as cynics have suggested) with the promise of bringing in a huge investment from Sidney Kimmel to Mizzou, you can probably convince some independent high-impact journal somewhere. jps (talk) 13:14, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

On citation counts, I'm not asking you to take my word for it, or insisting that Google Scholar's index is the final word. (Though Scopus isn't kind to Storms' paper either; I haven't checked Web of Science because I'm out of the office and there's only so much time in my day.) If there are a lot of reputable papers that cite and endorse Storms' summary of the field, but which aren't captured by the usual publication indices, then by all means call attention to them. The problem is that Storms seems to be occupying something of an outlying position even within the world of cold fusion proponents – the fringe of the fringe, as it were – and we should be very reluctant to present such an individual's views as representative of the state of the field. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:56, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, I've learned a lot about citing reliable sources. I think that this section can be closed now. Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 22:25, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Remove E-cat

E-cat, like many other cold fusion claims before it, seems like a flash in the pan publicity stunt. I suggest removing mention of it from this article per WP:ONEWAY. jps (talk) 12:15, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Until such time as the E-cat is either proven as a scam, or releases a commercial device for sale, I don't recommend removing it as there are still ongoing developments in the story. Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 06:48, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Ongoing developments is not a rationale for keeping it in an article about cold fusion. It may be a rationale for having a separate article, but we have such a thing. jps (talk) 13:05, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Rossi and friends still supply press releases and non-peer-reviewed 'reports', but from a scientific standpoint it is hard to see any tangible 'ongoing developments'. The scale of the promises grows, but the actual deliveries.... TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:31, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Copied from User talk: Robert McClenon

I am copying the following here to allow other cold fusion skeptics to reply below closed copy:

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hi! I've noticed your comments from here and your invitation to ask questions regarding the aspects presented there. Could you please explain what is the essence of DS (Discretionary sanctions)? Also is there any potential interference with improvement of content of articles by DS?

Another question refers to your notification of some disruption. What is exactly is the nature of the disruption? I haven't understood very well. Is somehow the use of word disruptive disruptive and should it have been replaced with word less insinuating? An objection to a objectionable (dubious) archiving can't reasonably be considered disruptive/obstructive (or some other strong word).--82.137.15.45 (talk) 14:50, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

I will reply here, since your IP address keeps changing. First, since your IP address keeps changing, it would be useful to create a registered account. Second, for a description of discretionary sanctions, see discretionary sanctions. Second, you ask whether there is any potential interference with improvement of content of articles due to discretionary sanctions? That depends on what you mean by improvement of content. Discretionary sanctions provide special remedies for POV-pushing, incivility, etc., in contentious areas. This facilitates the NPOV improvement of content. It is meant to prevent the imposition of non-neutral POV on articles. In the case in point, it will slow down efforts by believers in cold fusion to demand changes that present cold fusion as mainstream science, when it is Wikipedia consensus and scientific consensus that cold fusion is fringe science. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:27, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

In order to prevent the imposition a non NPOV, firstly the NPOV must be determined, not assumed from start in order to prevent possible error of stating inaccurately NNPOV as NPOV. You seems to have the impression that the scientific consensus is that CF is fringe and some users are POV-pushing the contrary. One can certainly say that CF is controversial, the fringe status is to be verified based on sources.

This assertion as CF being fringe cannot reasonably accepted as an axiom, it has to be based on sources whose accuracy must be verified to prevent misrepresentation from insinuating. The requests from CF talk are intended to clarify some problematic aspects from some sources. These requests surely are for the improvement of the article and are reasonable and labeling them disruptive is objectionable (not to say obstructive because I understand using this word is not considered appropriate).

If you want to provide us with reliably sourced information indicating that cold fusion is not considered fringe by a large majority of the scientific community, you are welcome to do that, as long as demands are not made to edit the article, and as long as there is no edit-warring about what is included on this talk page. That doesn't change the fact that the scientific consensus is that cold fusion is pathological science. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:01, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

If [cold fusion]] does happen under nearly normal conditions, why hasn't it been observed in non-laboratory conditions? What is the theoretical explanation of when it does and does not happen? Robert McClenon (talk) 21:01, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Have you considered the possibility of a misrepresentation of consensus? Any reasonable editor should consider this and should not impose a certain POV by default.--82.137.15.108 (talk) 19:08, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Therefore I ask you politely to stop labeling as disruptive reasonable requests for clarification of content of sources and what these sources really support.--82.137.15.108 (talk) 19:14, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Robert McClenon (talk) 19:17, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Cold fusion is considered fringe by the large majority of the scientific community, and so is considered fringe by the Wikipedia community. As to the feasibility of using cold fusion as a source of energy, I will note that hot fusion is universally accepted (just step outside during the daytime), but that fifty years of research and development have not brought us much closer to using it practically. Fusion is difficult to achieve even under extreme laboratory conditions, and there is no good theoretical explanation of why cold fusion should be achievable under "relatively normal" laboratory conditions. The difficulty of achieving practical hot fusion under extreme conditions is another reason why cold fusion is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:24, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

I continue here a discussion which I see has been moved from user talk.

Large majority of scientific community is a vague attribution that should be objectively determined. Secondly, it should not be assumed that hot fusion and cold fusion must necessarily share the same mechanism or other entailments like this.--82.137.12.140 (talk) 19:38, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

If you want to provide us with reliably sourced information indicating that a significant minority of scientists accept cold fusion as sound science, then you are welcome to do so, provided that you do not provide demands to edit the article and do not edit-war over the contents of this talk page. The demands were disruptive, and the edit-warring was disruptive. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:06, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

If cold fusion under nearly normal laboratory conditions exists, why has it not been observed outside of laboratories? Robert McClenon (talk) 21:06, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

This is not a place to debate whether cold fusion is real, it is not a forum. (that goes for you too Robert as per your last comment) Find reliable sources and come back. The scientific community must change its mind before this article can. Sadly % wise weight must be given due to CF proponents and opponents, based on the amount of consensus in the scientific community. In this article it pretty much is. Whether the article is well written and wether the CF sources are the best ones available is another matter of discussion. I'lI reiterate, this is not a forum to discuss whether CF is real, I know it is, you know it is, but the scientific community has its head up its ass so wikipedia must report on what the majority believes. nothing you can write here will change that fact. Insertcleverphrasehere (talk) 22:32, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

The main aspect involved here I was trying to underline before the intervention of Insertcleverphrasehere is the wikicolaborative courtesy of providing quotes from sources for clarification by users who can access the sources containing the required quotes. I think there is some wikirule in this regard.--82.137.11.148 (talk) 23:09, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand the comment about a rule of providing sources for clarification. You acknowledge that providing quotes from sources is a courtesy and not a requirement. So what rule do you think you are referring to? Some of us have tried to collaborate and cooperate, but have tried to explain to you that the fringe status of cold fusion is an established scientific consensus, and that if you disagree with that, the burden of proof is on you to provide contrary evidence from reliable sources. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:15, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

The rule seems to be mentioned in WP:V WP:SOURCEACCESS supplemented by WP:REREQ and WP:REFCHECK.--82.137.11.2 (talk) 12:59, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Also I think we should keep two aspects which should not be interfered separate. These aspects are the request for sources clarification and the status of CF. Trying to imply equivalence between them is not reasonable.--82.137.11.2 (talk) 13:20, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Question

Is there a compelling reason why the supporter(s) of cold fusion have to post from (shifting) IP addresses? Why not create an account or accounts? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:17, 23 June 2014 (UTC)