Talk:Samaria

Samaritans are not Jews

"It is commonly, though inaccurately, accepted that Samaritans are mainstream Jews.[9][dubious – discuss]"

The Samaritans are descended from the Northern tribes of Israel and are therefore not Judaean, or Jewish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.109.197 (talk) 12:45, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Samaria is not part of Israel

I was wondering how could you classify Samaria as part of Israel, when even Israel itself does not recognize it as part of it. according to international law, this is an occupied territory, and Israel is the military occupation authority there, and it has no rights to change the facts on the ground. By the way, what you call settlements are Jewish-only residential areas built for on Palestinian confiscated land for army soldiers and reservists (plus ultra-right extremist Jews for sure), and by this definition, these "communities" cannot be considered localities or villages, but they are either colonies or military camps or outposts. Atubeileh (talk) 19:07, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Surely you don't mean that the Kingdom of Israel and the State of Israel are the same? --ElComandanteChe (talk) 11:28, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

The State of Israel and the Kingdom of Israel are the same country but just with different governments, just like how China, France, and many other countries no longer have monarchs. However, Israel has lost much of its territory due to the Roman ethnic cleansing and subsequent Arab occupations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AbrahamIsaac (talk • contribs) 07:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

[TWIIWT comment By archaeology the city of Samaria is the only local ancient city which even remotely resembles a city-state or kingdom which might match the description of biblical Israel or Judea. Rather it appears it was later incorporated into the Septuagint stories, given a posthumous Bris, and credit taken for it. That said the modern occupied "Samaria" does not match the Samaria being discussed here either as a city or a geographic region. As to the settlements, the are all war crimes under the Nuremberg tribunal and the Geneva Conventions. There is no more dispute over the territories being occupied than there is a dispute over a tomato being a fruit. end TWIIWT] — Preceding unsigned comment added by TWIIWT (talk • contribs) 01:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Only an idiot like you would believe that the indigenous people of Israel returning to their homeland is somehow a war crime. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AbrahamIsaac (talk • contribs) 07:23, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Samaria is a geographic region, and the Green Line between Israel and the West Bank does not leave all of it on one side. Also, I commented out a boilerplate "illegal settlement" line. The mere mention of the (linked) term Israeli settlement does not justify a mini-discussion of legality. Aslbsl (talk) 12:38, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

"AbrahamIsaac" was very clearly a spammer.Historylover4 (talk) 14:40, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

History

There seems like a huge gap in the history which I hope my sub-section labels have pointed out. There is no discussion at all of the Ottoman administration of the area. The crusades must be relevant here as well. Bob Burkhardt (talk) 22:31, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Samaria (ancient city)

Why have those three paragraphs about the city called Samaria under the history section? This is not the Samaria (ancient city) article, this is the article about the geographic region called Samaria. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 14:54, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

In the absence of any reason offered as to why this article should have those three paragraphs I'm removing them. Clearly the city is not the geographic region and the geographic region is not the city. The geographic region was named after the city, but lost of Nazareth's was names after Nazareth, yet we don't cover any other Nazareth then the one in Israel on the Nazareth article. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 12:49, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Not clear why it has a section on Samaritans, either. Zero^talk 15:08, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Probably because the Samaritans were originally from Samaria. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 04:22, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Northern West Bank or Northern Palestine

The West Bank (pink)

The Northern Kingdom (blue)

This article says that Samaria is "roughly corresponding to the northern West Bank" yet Judea and Samaria Area#Terminology says that "Samaria [...] roughly corresponds to the territory of the ancient [Northern Kingdom] of Israel" (i.e. northern Palestine). Even with a roughly, the northern West Bank is clearly a far narrower area than northern Palestine. Both statements can't be correct, unless definitions of Samaria vary wildly. So is Samaria the northern West Bank or northern Palestine. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 23:27, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Definitions do vary widely, but the Kingdom of Israel as shown blue in your map is far larger than any definition I've seen, especially with regard to northern and eastern extents. "Roughly corresponding to the northern West Bank" is not like historic definitions either, and probably is a modern distortion. Often, but not always, it extended to the coast. Some examples of historic interpretations: an English map, a Hebrew map (the small green portion), a French map, another Hebrew map (green section). If you examine the Hebrew maps here, you will find that most don't mark Samaria at all. Zero^talk 10:09, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Your maps seem to show Samaria as being roughly the northern West Bank, but including the western coastal areas. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 08:49, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that would be a better approximation of the most common interpretation. Zero^talk 04:01, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Here is a more recent map in the pre the 1948 British mandate area, where the Samaria district was shaped as such [1](it was even larger in the beginning of the mandate when it included the Beisan sub district as well) I hope it helps.--Mor2 (talk) 16:43, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

post 48

The phrase Jordanian-held Samaria areas is, besides incredibly poor writing, anachronistic. So is Israeli settlements in the Samaria area. nableezy - 19:43, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

If you can phrase it better, give it a shot. However, I have to object to the switch from the term 'Samaria' which is the focus of this article to 'west bank' mid article. Even if both areas roughly correspond, they are not the same area and this change only server to confuse the reader due to lack of consistency. IMO the articles 'Samaria' and 'Judea' should fall under the same convention as the Israeli Judea and Samaria administrative area article.--Mor2 (talk) 16:28, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

There isnt a switch. And it doesnt confuse a reader, or shouldnt, as the lead defines Samaria as roughly corresponding to the northern West Bank and the sentence prior to the change says As a result of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, most of the territory was unilaterally incorporated as Jordanian-controlled territory and was administered as part of the West Bank. nableezy - 16:40, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

"Reliable sources": A new interpretation

OK, now we have a claim that any source published "a hundred years ago" e.g, before World War I, is unreliable. If so, then you will have to will go through all the articles on Israel/Palestine and delete everything based on such sources as the following - and many more like them - which are being used in dozens, if not hundreds of articles:

• Barron, J. B., ed. (1923). Palestine: Report and General Abstracts of the Census of 1922. Government of Palestine.
• Conder, Claude Reignier; Kitchener, H. H. (1883). The Survey of Western Palestine: Memoirs of the Topography, Orography, Hydrography, and Archaeology. Vol. 3. London: Committee of the Palestine Exploration Fund.
• Guérin, Victor (1868). Description Géographique Historique et Archéologique de la Palestine (in French). Vol. 1: Judee, pt. 1. Paris: L'Imprimerie Nationale.
• Guérin, Victor (1875). Description Géographique Historique et Archéologique de la Palestine (in French). Vol. 2: Samarie, pt. 2. Paris: L'Imprimerie Nationale.
• Palmer, E. H. (1881). The Survey of Western Palestine: Arabic and English Name Lists Collected During the Survey by Lieutenants Conder and Kitchener, R. E. Transliterated and Explained by E.H. Palmer. Committee of the Palestine Exploration Fund.
• Socin, A. (1879). "Alphabetisches Verzeichniss von Ortschaften des Paschalik Jerusalem". Zeitschrift des Deutschen Palästina-Vereins. 2: 135–163.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Gilabrand (talk • contribs) 24 January 2014

As the suitability of RS is dependent on the specific topic and content for which it is used I suggest we remain focussed on the point at hand and not other sources/topics. To wit, is it valid to use a hundred year old source for factual information about ancient Israel? In my view it basically boils down to whether the academic disciplines which focus on the ancient history/archaeology of Israel have changed significantly in the intervening 100 years or so that would make such a source unreliable for verification of this content. Dlv999 (talk) 13:09, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

I see no reason a 100 year old source should not be reliable, or even much older. If There are any changes in later academic literature, then those will surely mention the older source (and discuss and refute, if need be). Debresser (talk) 14:19, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree. It is a fine academic source. All Rows4 (talk) 19:52, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree completely. It is universally acceptable fact that Samaria was the capital of the ancient Kingdom of Israel. Remains of the royal palace built by Omri and Ahab during the Israelite period were found by archaeologists, as well as pottery fragments depicting Hebrew-character inscriptions.Marokwitz (talk) 15:17, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

"Therefore, Samaria served mainly as royal stronghold ( see Excursus ) only for the leader of mobile military kingship and its family and courtiers. The limited administrative personnel resided in the various royal functional cities rather than in Samaria where they had to do their jobs. For the Assyrians, Samaria is the residence of the ruling dynasty.45 But for Israel and its population, Samaria held no particular central position........Samaria was no traditional capital city.53 It was merely a mountain stronghold (hebr. ) for the court and family of a mobile warrior king. Other functions (military, trade, administration, and cult) were distributed among other specialized sites (Niemann 2006)." Niemann, Hermann Michael (2007). Ahab Agonistes: The Rise and Fall of the Omri Dynasty. T & T Clark. pp. 198–200. ISBN 0567045404. Dlv999 (talk) 17:06, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

All of the examples Gilbrand gave are used predominantly for contemporary information. The 1922 census report for 1922 population, etc.. When it comes to claims about ancient history, we have to always be alert to the possibility that scholarly opinion has changed on the matter. That's true, for example, with many of Guérin's identifications of villages in his time with ancient villages. We try to determine if his identifications are still accepted and cite newer views if we can. As always, it's a work in progress. The same holds here. There's nothing wrong per se with citing a 100-year old book on a matter of ancient etymology, but your job as editor is not finished if that's all you do. If you want the article to be as good as possible you should try to determine if scholars today still believe it. Zero^talk 00:39, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

State of Samaria archaeology site

This AP article, which is given as the source for the BA article, provides a much more detailed account of the politics and its effect on the state of the site. Since most of it is in Area C, attributing all the neglect to the Palestinian Authority is a bit silly. Zero^talk 12:11, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

It certainly is and doesn't reflect what AP says. --IRISZOOM (talk) 14:51, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Removal of "and almost universally"

Gilabrand removed "and almost universally". It doesn't make it "simpler" but it changes the meaning and doesn't represent what the source actually say. --IRISZOOM (talk) 14:57, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

No answer yet by Gilabrand. The removal doesn't make any sense at all. --IRISZOOM (talk) 07:59, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

In the header.

Can we please get rid of the "ancient" palestine. It's not subjective and it has no reference to the biblical or ancient history of the land in which this article concerns. At the time the land was known as judea&samaria. It's pretty simple. POV pushing needs to be remedied. Wiki is not subjective in concerns to the palestine/israel conflct. PLease stop editing out judea unless you have references referring to the land being called either palestine or palaestina before the roman renaming of 132 ad by any of the actual inhabitants of the region. 2601:D:9580:E47:5D2F:3438:15DF:C6B (talk) 17:36, 16 July 2014 (UTC)