Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force

TalkMembersMediaGender gap
mailing listWikiWomen's
User GroupRelated
WikiProjects

Useful links

Wikipedia's gender gap on Twitter

• WikiWomen's Collab @WikiWomen
• GenderGapOnWikipedia @SaidOnWP
• Also see the Ada Initiative @adainitiative

Wikimedia Foundation gender gap mailing list

• How to subscribe
• Archives

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Lightbreather

The Arbitration Committee has opened a case against GGTF member Lightbreather, in case anyone here wants to take part. Evidence can be supplied on the evidence page and opinions/proposals at the workshop, where comments have already begun. Sarah (SV) ^(talk) 05:56, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

I am restoring the above notice, which was deleted by User:Karanacs, who filed the above case. I have not stated any opinion about the case itself, but deletion of the notice does not seem appropriate. (1) Karanacs is not listed as a GGTF member. Sarah (SV) is the GGTF founder. That Karanacs knows better than Sarah what topics are and are not suitable for the GGTF to discuss seems questionable. (2) Deleting talk page comments by another user is in general frowned upon. (3) Deleting notices about an Arbitration case that one oneself opened also seems less than unbiased. (4) The GGTF is mentioned no less than 13 times on the opening page of that case, including one arb clerk who was involved with the GGTF case withdrawing because of it. In short, I do think there are ample grounds for Sarah's notice to stay. --GRuban (talk) 14:43, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

The canvassing - and restoration of the canvassing - has been noted on the case evidence page (not by me) and its talk page. This case was accepted to look at the behavior of one user, across multiple areas of Wikipedia, NOT to retry the GGTF case. I'm disappointed that these tactics have been used. Karanacs (talk) 14:58, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Seeing that LB is a part of this project though it wouldn't be canvassing to get the opinions of editors she has worked with. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:01, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that is canvassing. Just as it would be inappropriate for someone to post a notice of a (hypothetical) case about me at WP:FAC or Wikipedia:WikiProject Texas A&M, since I've been highly active there. Karanacs (talk) 15:08, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

If Wikipedia:WikiProject Texas A&M were mentioned 13 times in an Arbcom case, it would be a disservice not to notify them. And, frankly, Karen, though I respect you highly, and you have said some wonderful things on these pages, the fact that the person bringing the case was also the one removing the notice about it did not look good. Thanks for stopping. --GRuban (talk) 15:26, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

The notice seems a bit odd, but I don't see what part of the policy it violates; it's not spammy and is neutrally worded. It's arguable either way, I think. ekips39❦talk 02:47, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Gendergap related discussion on Karanacs talk page

A discussion on Karanacs talk page - Tip of the iceberg? - refers to this task force, the gendergap mailing list, and Karanacs' ArbCom against me. Further, Karanacs added that she believes that the private (Systers-hosted) mailing list that I started for women Wikipedia editors may also be involved in discussing the ArbCom.[1] (For the record: It is not.)

I believe these concerns should be discussed here, or on one of the ArbCom case pages. Feedback, anyone? Lightbreather (talk) 18:46, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

As I discussed on another page, editors can choose with whom they wish to have conversations, and they can choose the venue. Anyone can of course start a similar conversation at a more public location, and request that others redirect their comments to that thread, but if I am seeking advice on a matter, I have the freedom to choose with whom I wish to consult. For example, editors can choose to use the discussion page you set up in your userspace; they can't be forced not to request advice or help on that page. isaacl (talk) 19:04, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Why is it that when I don't see the same editors obsess with everything Jimbo it is about you and the GGTF? I know editors here aren't going to get along with everyone but the going out of the way just to target the person just has to stop. Im not saying this to you LB im saying this in general. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:57, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

What happens on the Systers list is obviously only the business of the people who are members of the list, with the caveat that, as with all off-wiki discussion, collusion is bad. There has been no allegation of wrongdoing on the Systers list, so I don't see why this needs to be addressed here at all. Karanacs (talk) 19:24, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Then would you please explain what you meant by this?

I would be quite surprised if this is not being discussed on the private list. One of the justifications for the KaffeeKlatsch was that women needed a place to go when they felt attacked, and pretty much everyone would see an Arbcom proceeding against oneself as an attack. ... Instead, I'll trust that those who appear after being canvassed will make that incredibly obvious (as is the case of the person who is posting on the workshop page).

I'd also appreciate it if you'd close down those (now) ArbCom related discussions on your talk page. They encourage those who ought to know better to, as others sometimes put it, stir up sh*t. Lightbreather (talk) 19:52, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Karanacs, would you please respond to above? Thank you. Lightbreather (talk) 00:30, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

This is an inappropriate venue for these types of discussions. 00:35, 6 May 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karanacs (talk • contribs)

More appropriate than your talk page, but I won't insist here. Still, will you please shut-down those discussions on your talk page? Lightbreather (talk) 02:05, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

How is this page more appropriate than her talk page for discussing something that's happening on her talk page? ekips39❦talk 02:47, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

If Karen wants to discuss something on her talk page, she can discuss it there. It's her talk page. Let her talk. Sheesh. --GRuban (talk) 14:12, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Audio .mp3 on impact of public shaming

According to Jon Ronson, the author of So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed,

“In all shamings, women have it way worse than men. It’s no coincidence that my book is filled with women."

There is much material for reflection in Mr. Ronson's interview, which describes how sad, vicious episodes of public shaming are facilitated by the use of the Internet.

Far too many people, men and women, old and young, people about whom we know nothing but an IP address, have experienced trauma, shame, and in some cases, negative real life consequences as a result of their voluntary or involuntary participation on the Internet, or as a direct result of their attempts to contribute to the Wikipedia encyclopedia projects.

I would urge those who are having a hard time on this website, anyone who is or who wants to become an administrator here, and all of us who get frustrated with the other editors on this site, to consider listening to this .mp3, and to reflect on what it would take to help us remember that there is a real, living person reading the words we type on our computer, someone who may actually be a good-faith volunteer attempting to make a positive contribution, and some real person, who no matter how difficult or obnoxious they may be, deserves a kinder fate than an avalanche of public social rejection and verbal abuse. --Djembayz (talk) 02:19, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I've read some of his earlier articles about this, and they're very good, as he always is. Thanks for posting it. Sarah (SV) ^(talk) 19:04, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I've used a quote from this as my latest talk-page "Quote of the day" All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:53, 23 May 2015 (UTC).

Discussion notice

There is a discussion at meta, Grants:IdeaLab/Community discussion on harassment reporting, that may be of interest to members of the group. Lightbreather (talk) 14:15, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Main page metrics

In the study " It's a Man's Wikipedia? Assessing Gender Inequality in an Online Encyclopedia", the researchers made an effort to assess gender bias in Wikipedia. Their model for determining "visibility bias" compared the proportions of men and women on the main page. I think it would benefit this task force to have access to up-to-date data for gender representation on the main page.

As Today's featured article, Did you know, In the news, On this day, and featured pictures all are products of different workflows, I think it would make sense to consider each separately. Trends like the bump in DYKs during Women's History Month could be visualized through a graphical representation of the data. What would be the easiest way to retrieve and present this data? Are there other metrics from the main page that would be useful to this task force? gobonobo ^{+ c} 02:28, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

• @Gobonobo: thanks for bringing up this subject as I am also interested in it. I've mentioned it in passing previously, but only regarding the DYK section. I agree that the data needs to be stovepiped by section as well as time (month/year). I'm very curious as to how the data will look across the years, but I don't know how to gather it, analyze it, or graphically present it. (It's been a long time since I was in graduate school.) Maybe the Wikidata folks would have some ideas? --Rosiestep (talk) 06:08, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

• I would suggest simply culling the wiki-links in each section and determining the gender of each that is about a specific human being. "On this day" should be controlled for year. Other sections should be controlled for the biography gender balance. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 20:53, 23 May 2015 (UTC).
  

"Girl bands"

I was touching up Eurovision Song Contest 2015 and found completely unmotivated references to The Peppermints as a "girl group",[2] as well as in article about the band.[3] I made a similar fix to the lead of 5, 6, 7, 8s a while ago.[4] The gender of the band members clearly had no contextual relevance in these cases.

Might be worth keeping tabs on Category:All-female bands in this regard. In some instances, like AC/DShe, specifying gender in the lead seems more relevant.

Peter ^Isotalo 11:29, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

And you've been swiftly reverted, with a link to girl group added. I hope you are keeping an eye on boy bands also. Johnbod (talk) 12:22, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Rather trying to make this about the fairly well-defined "boy band" genre, I suggest taking a long, hard look at girl group and tell us what the definition is. It's not all that clear beyond the 1960s once you start looking up the sources cited.

In Category:American rock girl groups you've got The Bangles, The Go-Go's and Vixen (band) which seem equivalent to regular mixed or all-male rock and pop bands. It strikes me as a bit arbitrary, except that they happen to be all-female. Other examples that appear to be fairly haphazardly categorized as girl groups are Australian rock band Lash (band), Canadian Lillix, German Milk & Honey (group), Bananarama and temporary Swedish trio Afro-dite.

Peter ^Isotalo 13:25, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

I have some sympathy with this, though I will certainly not be taking any sort of look at it. But anyone who thinks that being a girl group/band is not defining for Bananarama has gone bananas. Johnbod (talk) 14:29, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

No, taking a look at stuff would be droll. Clever puns, though, that's the way to make a difference.

Peter ^Isotalo 21:49, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

The Peppermints? You mean the ones whose official page, http://www.thepeppermints.eu/, has a site description of "Sito ufficiale della girl band The Peppermints"? --GRuban (talk) 14:59, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

And the Spice Girls made their point (and money) out of being a girl group. It didn't stop in the 1960s, that's for sure. - Sitush (talk) 23:48, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

It's a strange feeling not being allowed to call absolute bollocks what it is, absolute bollocks. Eric Corbett 00:50, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Thorg

The new Statesman has an article on "The Wikipedia wars: does it matter if our biggest source of knowledge is written by men?" which might be worth a read. My feeling though is that it's time to do rather than to read. One thing that might be worthwhile is to organize a "thematic organization" aka a thorg - which is an organized group similar to a Wikimedia chapter, which can get funding from the WMF through the Funds Dissemination Committee in fairly large amount via an annual grant (i.e. not one little project at a time). Please do consider this. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 22:33, 26 May 2015 (UTC)