Talk:Greco-Italian War

CE

Hello everyone, It's been a while, I've got a copy of Cervi so used it for a bit of editing. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 16:46, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi Keith, hope the pains that were ailing you have cleared up. 'Greco-Italian War' is very well done, just needs a little work here and there. Tomseattle (talk) 06:09, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Results

A user seems to conveniently forget how much drama there was before stablishing the current consensus, so I will refresh him, so look here [1], here [2], here [3], here [4] and here [5] (read the results discussion).

Of course anyone is free to start it all over again, but at least pretend you're discussing it at least. Uspzor (talk) 09:52, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Was it the usual suspect? Keith-264 (talk) 10:13, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't see anything in the linked discussions above about lack of consensus regarding the result. In fact only in the first linked discussion is there even any discussion of the result (the other 4 have nothing to with the result), and even there, the only objections are from a sock of a long-banned user, which can be ignored. As far as I see it, "Greek military victory; German intervention" is fairly uncontroversial as a result. Certainly preferable to the current bizarre "See Aftermath" (do any other milhist article have a "Result" like that?). Athenean (talk) 16:46, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Only the ones with paradoxical results and which follow Template:Infobox military conflict regards Keith-264 (talk) 17:42, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Except that's not the case here. I think "Greek military victory; German intervention" is a no brainer. 18:22, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

result – optional – this parameter may use one of several standard terms: "X victory", "Decisive X victory" or "Inconclusive". The choice of term should reflect what the sources say. In cases where the standard terms do not accurately describe the outcome, a link to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail (such as "See the 'Aftermath' section") should be used instead of introducing non-standard terms like "marginal" or "tactical" or contradictory statements like "decisive tactical victory but strategic defeat". It is better to omit this parameter altogether than to engage in speculation about which side won or by how much.

how many more times? Keith-264 (talk) 19:26, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Read again: The choice of term should reflect what the sources say. The sources are fairly clear here. Unless you can come up with some sources that show otherwise. But I doubt it. Athenean (talk) 04:41, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

The terms that reflect what the sources say are either inconclusive or See Aftermath section. The Greeks defeated the invasion but only to the extent of a stalemate that precipitated the German invasion. There was no Italian surrender, only an escalation of the war effort and more attacks; this isn't a victory. Keith-264 (talk) 06:34, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Your own conclusions about the war are fascinating, but as you are not a reliable source, they are of very little interest to me. Athenean (talk) 07:08, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

And by the way, could you please properly indent your comments? Otherwise it makes it hard for others to follow the discussion. Athenean (talk) 04:42, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

I suggest you speak for yourself.Keith-264 (talk) 06:34, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

You may wish to familiarize yourself with WP:INDENT. Athenean (talk) 07:09, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Result field in infobox

It's really weird for a reader who's interested about this war to simply see a link to aftermath section, instead of a result on the correspondent infobox field. I assume there should be a good reason why the infobox should avoid to mention the fact that the Italian invasion was a defeat and "then" came the German intervention. What's also weird is that the aftermath section isn't focused about the results of this war, because the result is mentioned in the previous sections.

Thus, according to the former version, a reader who's interested to find out what's the result of this war needs to click the aftermath link (since ib sayd nothing) and then he needs to read 10k of analysis/quotes by various historians. Not to mention that this analysis takes for granded the historical stages of the battle: Italian defeat & German intervention.Alexikoua (talk) 16:23, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Click? Hardly 16 tons is it?

result – optional – this parameter may use one of several standard terms: "X victory", "Decisive X victory" or "Inconclusive". The choice of term should reflect what the sources say. In cases where the standard terms do not accurately describe the outcome, a link to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail (such as "See the 'Aftermath' section") should be used instead of introducing non-standard terms like "marginal" or "tactical" or contradictory statements like "decisive tactical victory but strategic defeat". It is better to omit this parameter altogether than to engage in speculation about which side won or by how much.

how many more times? Keith-264 (talk) 17:40, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Keith. The result of the war is much more complicated, and per guidelines (and, yes, such an approach is used in other articles) omit it from the infobox and let the reader read the aftermath section to gain a clear and full understanding.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 23:31, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Impostor

rv ‎Jimmy200518, possibly our resident impostor. Keith-264 (talk) 18:32, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Keith-264, you have reverted my edits without an explanation and you have called me an Impostor. Am I missing something here!? I have reverted your edits, hoping that this is just an unintended misunderstanding of your part. But I will warn you to refrain from such behaviors in the future. Calling others as impostors is a serious offense and removing other people's edits without an explanation, go against Wikipedia's rules. Thank you and have a good day. -- SILENTRESIDENT (talk) 22:10, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

You jumped the gun, we were edit conflicted, see below.Keith-264 (talk) 22:13, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

There is a banned editor who fabricates IDs then pursues various hobby horses in articles where the Italian army of 1940-1945 is involved. I thought your edit was characteristic of this editor's modus operandi which was one reason why I reverted it. The other reason is that this has been exhaustively discussed here because of

result – optional – this parameter may use one of several standard terms: "X victory", "Decisive X victory" or "Inconclusive". The choice of term should reflect what the sources say. In cases where the standard terms do not accurately describe the outcome, a link to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail (such as "See the 'Aftermath' section") should be used instead of introducing non-standard terms like "marginal" or "tactical" or contradictory statements like "decisive tactical victory but strategic defeat". It is better to omit this parameter altogether than to engage in speculation about which side won or by how much.

in Template:Infobox military conflict which makes it clear what criteria for result can be used. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 22:13, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

My apologies, Keith-264, my mistake I didn't see it sooner, I am now aware there was an ongoing dispute on Talk Page. No need to copy-paste it here, saw it already on the previous section. Nevermind, you can ignore my previous warning. But again please next time refrain from calling others as impostors and just redirect them here, ok? Thanks and have a good day. -- SILENTRESIDENT (talk) 22:15, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your forbearance but possibly our resident impostor isn't calling you an impostor, although I can understand that it might look like that in the heat of the moment. I checked your edit history earlier and realised that it didn't look like the impostor's trail but got distracted and forgot to amend the comment here, apols. Keith-264 (talk) 22:23, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

first success

Was this really the first allied success in the war? I can remember at least of Narvik and maybe of Dunkirk,maybe there are others. Yes, both ended ultimately in retreat, but it did it here too, soo. Uspzor (talk) 04:34, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Yep it is the first land Allied success, because an Axis army was totally crippled and defeated by an Allied army on land. The German intervention which happened next year, does not reduce the important symbolism of a such scale defeat of an entire Axis army by the army of another country. The Italian defeat forced Germany to intervene to save the prestige of the Axis, and due to this intervention, Hitler's plan to invade the Soviet Union, was eventually delayed. This delay gave the Soviets the needed time to prepare better and bolster their defenses which helped them repel the German invasion.

Hitler in fact, blamed the failure of his invasion of the Soviet Union to Mussolini's failure to conquer Greece and Greece's unexpected success against the Axis. So the defeat of Italy isn't only the first full defeat of an Axis power on land, but also what delayed Hitler's invasion of Soviet Union, giving the victory a double symbolism. The battles in Narvik and other areas were battles indeed, but not full-scaled invasions and war as is the case between Axis Italy and Allied Greece. -- SILENTRESIDENT (talk) 09:53, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

How big or significant was the defeat? An Italian invasion was repulsed, a Greek counter-invasion was contained and an Italian spring offensive was contained. In the wider war, the delay thesis is mostly discounted these days, in favour of a late spring determining the timing of Barbarossa (cf the start dates of the German offensives of 1942 and 1943). Hitler was there but I'd treat him as an unreliable narrator, for obvious reasons. What did the Italians do after the flop of the spring offensive, surrender or exploit the German invasion? If the Italians were in a condition of defeat, why were the Greeks still deployed in western Greece and Albania instead of in the east? All these questions lead inevitably to Inconclusive or See Aftermath because it can't be encapsulated without looking ludicrous. Keith-264 (talk) 12:59, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Are you saying it was not significant? Are you saying that the victory of the tiny Greek nation against 1 of the 3 major Axis powers in the world, was not significant? Are you saying that Nazi Germans didn't intervene to help the Fascist Italians? If the Fascist Italians were not defeated, or that the defeat was not significant, then why did Nazi Germany ever intervene? Hitler had much more important things to do - the Soviet Union was a much bigger threat to the Axis than Greece was - and striking against it without delay, was what he wanted to do to ensure that the the Axis powers have the upper hand against their opponents. But of course, he didn't expect Mussolini to get himself into big troubles against the tiny Greeks and he had to intervene. Apparently the "insignificant Greek victory" wasn't so insignificant, given how this bought the Soviets some time for preparations, which gave the Allies the upper hand in the war.

The Allies owe to Greece for its bravery and for the fact that it defeated the invaders and managed to move the Greco-Italian war front from Greece's territory, deep into the territory of the neighboring Albania, then a protectorate of Fascist Italy. None doubts that. But if you disagree with that, then fine. Everyone is free to to express his opinions, but Wikipedia is not based on the personal opinions. Wikipedia is based on facts. And Hitler himself acknowledged how the "insignificant" Greek "victory" contributed to his defeat by the Soviets. The Greek victory was pivotal to the tide of the opposition in the European front of the WWII, for the fact that it proved for the first time how the Axis powers are not unstoppable and unbeatable on land. Anyone, and especially the respectful war historians out there, are well aware of a such symbolism's impact to the psychology of the participants in the war. Greece was eventually crushed by the Germans, but nevertheless this played a role in the change of the war's course. Have a good day. -- SILENTRESIDENT (talk) 15:08, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

I asked X and you answered Y. The only question is if this was really the first victory, what I believe it's not, the rest is totally disconnected with the subject.Uspzor (talk) 15:32, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

This is the first war campaign victory. But a campaign victory should not be confused with a battle victory. Narvik and Dunkirk were not campaigns, were battles. The World War II had seen more than 100+ battles across the continent if my memory does not fail me. Some more significant than others. Some of these battles were victorious, some others not. But the campaign of the Greeks against the invaders, with the assistance of the British Empire, constitute the first campaign success against the Axis powers. -- SILENTRESIDENT (talk) 15:47, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Then you'll have to start discussing where a battle ends and a campaign begin, or what defines something as "major". Your people really like contentious words don't they? And yes, Narvik was a campaign, don't believe me, search "narvik campaign" on google books and see by yourself. Uspzor (talk) 17:25, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

I am sorry my friend, but if Narvik is not a Battle but a standalone Campaign as you are claiming, (which comes in contrast with the established fact that Narvik was a not a campaign but a battle and part of the Norwegian Campaign), then I am Barack Obama and I live in Planet Mars. Unless you have reliable sources backing your "Narvik was campaign" claim, I can not help you. Have a good day. -- SILENTRESIDENT (talk) 02:08, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Right or wrong, more than one source calls it such.

You refuse to get what I am telling you. The established fact is that Narvik is a battle and part of the Norwegian campaign. This is an established fact and you need more than just a mere source or two supporting otherwise to dispute this fact. Just that there are scholars calling it campaign, does not mean it is not a battle. Wikipedia works on consensus and reflects the opinion of the vast majority of the world's historians and the community. And so far, they say it is a set of battles, not a standalone campaign by itself. You will need solid proof that this was not a battle, and bring it to discussion at the relevant article's talk page and work there for a solid consensus with other users. Until then, don't bother trying to change other pages or bring the discussion to other Wikipedia articles, such as the Greek-Italian war, because they are not the place for it and your changes will be reverted. Have a good day. -- SILENTRESIDENT (talk) 09:05, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Woah there, you guys are the ones having a hissy fit about this and brought it up. You have taken one position and called thr other guy wrong; right or wrong, sources support both of you.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 12:28, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

The sources which you have provided to me: 1) do call Narvik as a campaign, indeed, but, unless my eyes missed something, they 2) do not provide details about which criteria are met to call a battle taking place in a limited area around Narvik a full and standalone campaign by itself, and last, 3) they do not claim that Narvik was unrelated the Norwegian Campaign. I am sorry but your sources are not providing enough information to back this claim. Wikipedia maintains that Narvik was a series of battles that took place around the region of same name, as part of the larger Norwegian Campaign. The rest of Wikipedia's articles, such as the Greek-Italian article, have no option but to maintain consistency in the encyclopedia and reflect upon what was maintained in the articles Norwegian Campaign and Battle of Narvik. If you are objecting to this established consensus, and you find enough documents/scholar information supporting your claims, you are always welcomed to open a discussion in the relevant talk pages. Until then, please do not continue this discussion here, as this talk page is about the Greek-Italian war and only, not about Narvik being a campaign or not. Since I cleared this out to you there is nothing more to discuss about Narvik here. Maintaining discussions irrelevant to the Greek-Italian war, such as this, goes against Wikipedia's rules. Thank you and have a good day. -- SILENTRESIDENT (talk) 13:35, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

WP:CIRC Wikipedia isn't a source.Keith-264 (talk) 14:43, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

I am sure you are very well aware that the one Wikipedia article cannot claim that Adolf Hitler is alive but the other article claim he is dead, right? This is not about mere sourcing, this is about consistency of sourced information already present in Wikipedia. I call the editors to not play with words to prove something that is not proven, and stick to the established facts when they lack the necessary sources for otherwise. The articles in Wikipedia should present these historical events of WWII by how it was agreed on how refer them to as (majority of sources and scholars and consensus among users, and Wikipedia policies if applicable to such matters, etc) Have a good day. -- SILENTRESIDENT (talk) 19:53, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

In addition, I have not made any claims about Narvik and do not have a horse in this race. All I have done is point out that sources support both positions. Regardless, wiki policy is to go with what sources say; not if they meet your personal criteria.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 15:10, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

[edit conflict] Read what I wrote; overstating Greek success with hyperbole clouds the facts of what the Greeks really achieved. This is myth-making not history, the truth is good enough, ask the people in the cemeteries. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 15:44, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't care what you believe about an war that happened 60+ years ago. Like it or not, the Greek campaign to repel the Fascist Italian invaders was a successful one and the first of its kind in WWII. -- SILENTRESIDENT (talk) 15:56, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

I didn't write what I believe about a 60-year-old war, I suggested that the subject is vulnerable to hyperbole and myth-making. This is why the nature of the Greek success/victory/whatever it was, is difficult to summarise according to the infobox criteria. The Italo-Greek war was unfinished when the Germans invaded so Greek battlefield victories can't have been decisive and how it ended can't easily be separated from the effect of the German invasion. By the way, what were Greek war aims? Keith-264 (talk) 16:33, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

SilentResident, these are just you personal opinions. You didn't provide a a definition for "campaign", "major" and even the greek victory piece is debatable as anyone didn't pretending amnesia can see. I showed you that narvik is considered a campaign and if take the trouble to search narvik victory you'll see that it's considered a victory much more unanimously than the greco-italian war. Any dubius and contentius claim as this should not be made into the article but at least qualify it. Uspzor (talk) 22:01, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

I am surprised now. Do I have to prove that the Greek Italian war is... war and not a battle? Do I have to prove that Narvik is a battle and not full scale campaign? What kind of logic is that? Why do, I have to defend and prove what is already an established consensus among world's historians and the wiki community? I didn't create or write the articles in the first place. The others did. And you can see that their edits were accompanied by reliable sources and solid citations accepted by everyone. It wasn't my work at all. The scholars and the community said the Battle of Narvik is a battle that covered a single town and the area around it. The scholars and the community are the ones who also said that the Greek Italian War is a war that covered several Greek and Albanian towns in a large zone that spanned more or less 100 kilometers (I can't remember exactly, but don't hold me for this). They wrote these articles based on indisputable facts, And these articles existed for long time before I ever come here and join the community and contribute. It wasn't me who created and named the Battle of Narvik article a "battle", or the Greek-Italian War article a "war". Was I? No. Do you believe the articles are named inappropriately? If you do, and you hold solid evidence backing your claims, then bring it to their relevant pages and request a rename procedure. The people, including me, are not going to bother turning this into an endless forum discussion just because you don't get the point, and instead of providing sources supporting your theories, you are calling upon me to provide a definition (!) for why the majority of the scholars and the Wiki community calls the events by the most-known and established terms for them. You are asking me to prove what was already backed with solid and indisputable sources, and you are citing questionable sources for this. I think our discussion has reached a point where any further discussions are not productive, do not get somewhere, and only waste space in an irrelevant Talk Page. Do not expect me to continue this discussion. I am sorry. Have a good day. -- SILENTRESIDENT (talk) 00:58, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Just for fun, considering your argument of inter-wiki consistency, from the Battles of Narvik article (please note the "s"): "The Battles of Narvik were fought from 9 April to 8 June 1940 as ... a land battle in the mountains ... the two-month land campaign". and "The total number of Allied troops in the campaign—in and around Narvik—reached 24,500 men.[45]" There are additional uses of the term. Of course, as Keith pointed out, wiki is not a RS. As Google Books have pointed out, the term "campaign" is in usage albeit a limited one it would seem.

So, we have discussed to death if wiki is a source, if sources say if Narvik was a battle or a campaign, but have we actually provided sources for the actual point initially raised? Dr K has attempted to resolve this on the actual article, but if we are going to call sources weak then the one he has used is for sure a weak source on the subject.

No judgement on the sources, but the following all makes claims for the "first": source 1 says the fighting in Greece, allied land victory second world war&f=false Source 2 says Op Compass, Source 3 says its was in 1942, source 4 says Op Compass, Source 5 says Greece.

Again, as with other discussions lately: sources and consensus is required.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 01:22, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, sources and consensus are required. That the Greek campaign was the first successful allied land campaign was there for a long time, so if you want to change it, the onus is on you to obtain consensus. And last time I checked the Narvik land battle ended with a German victory. Nice try though. Athenean (talk) 04:00, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

I suppose it is beyond you to look above, where a quick google search showed that it is a contentious issue. I wasn't arguing about Narvik, but since you end your point with it...the Italians and Germans won here too.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 08:46, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

And a source was provided [6]. There is nothing "weak" about it. It is published by Oxford University Press, and fully meets the requirements of WP:RS and WP:V. If you feel the source is "weak", you are welcome to ask an advisory opinion at WP:RSN. Athenean (talk) 06:32, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

A footnote in a book on terrorism that is only mildly relevant to the article is pushing the boundaries of the wiki guidelines. In fact, if you had bothered to look, some of the sources cited above are much stronger sources for the point (although, as also noted there are also contenders for the title). Consensus of sources is required, ones that cover the subject (not just in passing) and especially not consensus of pride.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 08:46, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Like I expected: Narvik was NOWHERE claimed as first Allied victory. So we have 3 sources about Greek victory (Source #1 and Source #5 + professor from Oxford Source, [which for some is dusputable]), 2 sources about Operation Compass (Source #2 and Source #4) but zero sources about Narvik victory, and the source #3 takes place much much later chronologically than the Greek War and the Operation Compass - at year 1942, which makes it unlikely to be the very first victory. So it is between the Greek war and an operation in Egypt and Cyrenaica codenamed Compass. Now lets compare the Greek War and Operation Compass: The Greeks completed the repulsion of the invading Axis forces from Allied territory successfully by middle December 1940 already (the Italians then retreated to the Axis territories to the northwest and didn't manage to make any advances against the Allies anymore), while the Operation Compass recorded successes between December 1940 to February 1941, when Axis were driven out from the Eastern Sahara region by the Allied forces. The one at Greece was successful around middle December while the other, at Sahara was successful between December and January. Am I missing something? -- SILENTRESIDENT (talk) 14:25, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Other than you appear to be angling towards declaring a victor on the grounds of date, nope. I think more sources should be consulted to establish what the consensus is among historians (since the above took like 30 seconds to compile), followed by careful wording in the article acknowledging (since I suspect the fighting in Greece will be the consensus) that some historians look to other battlefields (perhaps in a note).EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 15:14, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

All we've achieved is a demonstration that there is no consensus among historians so that rules out Indecisive and brings us inevitably back to See Aftermath section. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 15:25, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

First of all, the historians agree on these 4 facts about the Greek-Italian war: 1) Stopping Invasion, 2) Pushing Back Invaders, 3) Loss of Italian-controlled Albanian territory to the Greeks, 4) Stabilization of front line of the war far behind from where it begun.

More precisely the scholars agree that: 1) the war broke when Italy invaded Greece through Albania. 2) the Greeks managed to overturn the invasion and drive all the Italian troops out of the Greek soil and back into Albania. 3) The war front was moved from Greece to Albania, and the Greek troops, not only managed to keep the Axis out of Greek soil for the entire rest of this war, but also brought about 30% of the territory of Axis-controlled Albania, then an Italian protectorate, under Allied control. 4) Eventually, the Italians managed to stabilize their front on Albanian soil but this doesn't negate their defeats and losses, nor the success of the Greeks against their invaders, nor makes this as "indecisive" as you are insisting so effortlessly. The primary goal of the Greek efforts in this war was just to defend their homeland and not let anyone touch it. The goal of the Greeks wasn't to defeat the Axis powers or to invade Italy or even overthrow Mussolini from power. The Greeks were successful and you know that. The Italian side failed in its offensive goals which was to conquer Greece, and the Greek side accomplished its defensive goals which was to keep invaders out of Greek soil. -- SILENTRESIDENT (talk) 16:28, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

I think my formulation:

The defeat of the Italians and the ensuing Greek counter-offensive have been described as the first successful Allied land campaign against the Axis powers and helped raise morale in Allied Europe.

is a good compromise. Note that I changed the description from "was" to "has been described" as it clearly was in the reliable source by Oxford University Press. This passage and the reliable source supporting it should not be removed by edit-warring. If someone doubts the reliability of the source they can go to WP:RSN as suggested earlier. Further, if you want to add other interpretations please feel free to do so, but this description should not be removed as it is more complex than simply which was the first victory etc. but also talks about raising morale in occupied Europe, which is an important point and should be mentioned at the article. Dr. K. 16:10, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

This is a good compromise and I voice my support for it. I don't see any problem about this from my part. -- SILENTRESIDENT (talk) 16:32, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

The repulse [defeat (the Italians weren't defeated, their offensive was, the war went on)] of the Italian invasion and the [ensuing (counter-offensives have to ensue)] Greek counter-offensive have been called [by (add the surnames of the 2-3 most eminent historians that write this)] the first successful Allied land campaign against the Axis powers, which helped raise morale in Allied Europe. this version avoids WP:WEASEL Keith-264 (talk) 16:45, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

I bolded Dr.K.'s proposal and I de-bolded the notes from Keith-264's proposal. This could improve readability of the final text proposed by Dr.K. and Keith-264 for the other users. I hope this helps. -- SILENTRESIDENT (talk) 16:56, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Looks good. Athenean (talk) 17:27, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Silent. By naming 2-3 historians, I think report rather than assert and don't go over the top for an entry in the lead, which should be brief. Those who disagree on fact are accommodated by the wording and can put some detail why in the Analysis section if necessary. I didn't reject the principle Dr K, I questioned some of the wording. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 17:35, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for the clarification. Your wording is very good. Dr. K. 17:58, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Good work SR. I agree with Keith's formulation. Dr. K. 17:32, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks very much, you're not so bad yourself. Keith-264 (talk) 17:45, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Thank you also Keith. Best regards. Dr. K. 17:56, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

I checked the WP:WEASEL which was not very familiar to me. I think Keith-264 got a point here, and thus, I am supporting Keith's formula too. -- SILENTRESIDENT (talk) 17:48, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Which source will support the morale boast? Uspzor (talk) 21:31, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

The morale "boast"?? Athenean (talk) 22:01, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Dont be obtuse, it is quite clear what he means. Not to mention, I had this concern too although I was going to voice it later after looking through the article again.

In regards to the proposed edit to the less, it should be obvious that it should be reflected in the main body of the text. I argue that a note should be included to highlight that there is a difference of opinion per the sources.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:25, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, or did you forget what it means too? Pls, don't make me write another topic just to remind you. Uspzor (talk) 22:36, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

The only ones being "obtuse" are those asking for the source, and pretending they haven't seen it, even though I gave a link in my previous post on this thread. Who do you think you are? Athenean (talk) 01:11, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Sources

The infobox should reflect what the sources say. And in this case the sources are unanimous. A small sample:

1. Bowman, Steven. The Agony of Greek Jews, 1940–1945. Stanford University Press. page 39. Greece fought for nearly seven months. In the first stages (November 1940 through February 1941), she defeated Italy; in turn the German invasion of April 1941 overran the mainland in three weeks.

2. Weinberg, Gerhard. A World at Arms: A Global History of World War II. Cambridge University Press. page 210. Certainly terrain and weather kept the Greeks from exploiting their victories... [7]

3. Lecoeur, Sheila. Mussolini's Greek Island: Fascism and the Italian Occupation of Syros in World War II. I.B. Tauris. page 25. Mussolini's disastrous invasion of Greece... [8].

4. J. Foot. Italy's Divided Memory. p. 97: ...as France surrendered two weeks after Italy's entry into war, defeat came rapidly, first in Greece and Albania "first"+defeat&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjqnuC6zorOAhXDNxQKHfLFC4M4ChDoAQg0MAM#v=onepage&q=%22%20as%20France%20surrendered%20two%20weeks%20after%20Italy's%20entry%20into%20war%2C%20defeat%20came%20rapidly%2C%20first%20in%20Greece%20and%20Albania%2C%22&f=false

5. Bernd Jürgen Fischer. Balkan Strongmen: Dictators and Authoritarian Rulers of South Eastern Europe. p. 194: ... As the only active ally of Britain fighting in Europe, Greece, overcoming its comparative disadvantages, provided the first victory against Axis forces "first+victory+"&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8xtf0zIrOAhUQsBQKHYbgDtI4ChDoAQgyMAQ#v=onepage&q=%22As%20the%20only%20active%20ally%20of%20Britain%20fighting%20in%20Europe%2C%20Greece%2C%20overcoming%20its%20comparative%20disadvantages%2C%20provided%20the%20first%20victory%20against%20Axis%20forces.%22&f=false

6. Elisabetta Brighi. Foreign Policy, Domestic Politics and International Relations: The Case of Italy. p. 74 "First, Greece represented the first real defeat for the Axis, and had an enormous psychological impact upon both Italy and Germany."first"+defeat&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7ktf9zYrOAhWBWBQKHQTsCE4Q6AEIOjAE#v=snippet&q=%22First%2C%20Greece%20represented%20the%20first%20real%20defeat%20for%20the%20Axis%2C%20and%20had%20an%20enormous%20psychological%20impact%20upon%20both%20Italy%20and%20Germany.%22&f=false

7. Ian Kershaw. Fateful Choices: Ten Decisions That Changed the World, 1940-1941. "The decision to invade Greece had been revealed as a calamitous folly. It was the first defeat for the seemingly invincible Axis forces."first"+defeat&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjqnuC6zorOAhXDNxQKHfLFC4M4ChDoAQhcMAg#v=snippet&q=%22The%20decision%20to%20invade%20Greece%20had%20been%20revealed%20as%20a%20calamitous%20folly.%20It%20was%20the%20first%20defeat%20for%20the%20seemingly%20invincible%20Axis%20forces.%22&f=false

8. A. Medvedev,Roy Aleksandrovich Medvedev. The Unknown Stalin. p. 211: ...the Greeks managed to seize a bridgehead in Albania. This was the first serious defeat for what was known as the 'Tripartite Pact' or 'Berlin-Rome-Tokyo Axis'. [9]

9. Philip Morgan. The Fall of Mussolini: Italy, the Italians, and the Second World War. "Yet, Italy's disastrous defeats in Greece and Albania, preceding and coinciding with those in Lybia, provoked in him 'an uncontainable anguish'. [[10]]

10. John Pollard. The Papacy in the Age of Totalitarianism, 1914-1958: Italy suffered a series of military defeats—largely thanks to Mussolini's overambitious war aims and his strategic incompetence—in Greece in the winter 1940–1, in East Africa in 1941..." [[11]]

11. Peter C Smith. Stukas Over The Mediterranean, 1940-45: The Birth of the Butcher Bird, 1939-43 p. 6: the Italians compounded their misery by launching an ill-advised invasion of Greece in October 1940, from bases in Albania. Again an initial advance acrosse the mountains in winter was turned into a defeat, then a retreat and a rout. As with the events at sea Hitler was forced to turn his eye from the east to the south and bail out his ineffective Axis partner. [[12]]

12. Peter Ewer. Forgotten ANZACS: the campaign in Greece, 1941. Royal United Services Institute of New South Wales. p. 2: Within weeks, the Italian army was in tatters, and the Greeks gave the Allied cause its first substantial victory on land in World War II, an achievement that has never received the recognition it deserves.[[13]]

I could go on and on. I mean, it's real easy to find sources to back this up. Athenean (talk) 05:14, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Three tertiary sources? If Italy was defeated, when did the surrender take place. It's the slippery nature of the words being used that's led to the use of the see aftermath criterion in default of a succinct result term that's an accurate description. Keith-264 (talk) 06:24, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Do you know what a tertiary source is? Because these aren't tertiary. Not to worry, I can find lots more. Athenean (talk) 06:29, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Tertiary source see for yourself. Keith-264 (talk) 12:50, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

I suggest you start an italian invasion of greece article and add it there.Uspzor (talk) 15:32, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

This article concerns the Greek-Italian conflicts: the military events from the Italian invasion until early April, before the German intervention. Needless to say that the Italian army didn't win a single battle in this war. On the other hand the German-Greek war (where Italian participation was of secondary importance) is part of another article.Alexikoua (talk) 18:26, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Did the Greeks win every battle? Keith-264 (talk) 19:10, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Alexikoua is absolutely right on this. -- SILENTRESIDENT (talk) 20:43, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

I strongly believe we should mention the result of the Greek-Italian conflict on the infobox regardless if there was a German intervention later. Each conflict's result should be present even if it was followed by other conflicts. -- SILENTRESIDENT (talk) 20:46, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

If you agree that the result was inconclusive. PS how did the Greek offensive to Valona end?Keith-264 (talk) 20:55, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Well this has been discussed to death for about the last two years.

First, Athenean and SILENTRESIDENT really need to establish consensus before further edits to the article; it is the cornerstone of the wiki when disagreements arise.

Secondly: you are both stating that the result of the whole war was an Italian defeat. To play Devil's Advocate: how was this possible when the war raged on, and Italy did not surrender? What do the sources say? From the four thus far produced (one on the article, and the three above), they do not support that the result of the war was that Italy was defeated. If we actually read the above three, they only state that the Italian invasion was repelled and that the Greeks were unable to complete their victory. So, we have a much more complicated picture than what is being proposed.

I note that despite the aftermath pointing to a more complicated picture, you have both ignored it. For example: "Jowett wrote that had Germany not intervened, "the stalemate would probably have continued".[185]" Stalemate is repeated a few times.

So we have sources that note that prior to the German intervention, the war was in a stalemate; how then do we come to the conclusion that the war was either a victory for the Greeks, or a defeat for the Italians?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:22, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

So a few minutes of searching found the following, with no consideration given to worth, bias, source type, etc:

Stockings, Swastika over the Acropolis, p. 2: "...the fall and subsequent occupation of most of Greece ended a costly and embarrassing statement in Albania...". On p. 45 he notes that the prolonged war was taxing Greece, and the military was running out of men and material to continue to prosecute the war. He commented "The early Greek victories ... made it difficult for the Greek leadership to negotiate an end to the war before the Germans could become involved."

Hall, War in the Balkan, p. 117: "By mid-December, both sides had reached a stalemate..."

Hall, The Modern Balkans, p. 109: "... on 29 January 1941 the Greek government agreed to accept British land forces in an effort to the break the stalemate in Albania."

Shores and Cull, Air War for Yugoslavia Greece and Crete 1940-41, p. 63: "The New Year of 1941 found a situation of stalemate fast developing along the front line. ... The Greeks were practically exhausted by the tremendous exertions of their autumn counter-attacks ..."

Swanston, The Atlas of Special Operations of World War II, p. ?: "The Greek Army had managed to hold off the Italian offensive into the country ... . A stalemate had been created along the Greek border ... and it remained as such until the German intervention..."

Latrides, Greece at the Crossroads, p. 319?: "Heavy winter and exhaustion produce a stalemate"

Ripley, The Wehrmacht, p. 108: "After modest initial Italian sucesses, however, the Greek Army forced the Italians back onto Albanian soil, until by December the fighting had degenerated into a stalemate."

McGrew, Educating across Cultires, p. 247: "There a stalemate ensued throughout the winter."

Marder, Stewards of the land, p. 188: "The invasion ... ended in the Italians' humiliating defeat ... the Greeks had pushed the Italian line back into Albania ... The Italians at this point were able to stablize their line ... reached a stalemate."

So a slew of sources (topic specific and general titles that touch on the subject) talk of a stalemate, which is a far cry from the sources being "unanimous" about a Greek victory or an Italian defeat as the result of the whole war. In fact, it is "real easy to find sources" that actually do not say either.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:57, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

It's quite obvious from the quotes you provided that the Italian initiative was a disaster: not only the invasion was pushed back, but they were also further pushed back inside Albanian territory. Even if this ended up in stalemate somewhere in early 1941 the Italian initiative was a defeat. In military terms when an attack is fully repulsed it can be declared that the attacker is defeated. Not to mention in our case the attacking side not only launched a failed attack but was also unable to hold its initial positions.Alexikoua (talk) 08:56, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

"The long fight against the Italians had exhausted the Greek armies and drained the national resources. The political framework had begun to crack." Playfair, Vol II, pp. 83–84.

The main point, this article is not the "Italian invasion of Greece". If it were, there would be no argument as every source on the subject states the Italian invasion was a disaster. However, this is the article about the whole war so the fact that the fighting ended in a stalemate is more relevant than the initial fighting, and more importantly it is what the sources say.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 12:25, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Stalemate??? You must be kidding me, my dear friend. What you say comes in contrast with what historians say. Let me quote here what I have wrote previously in the Talk page. Let me explain why your theory about Stalemate clearly has NOTHING to do with the Greek-Italian war:

The historians agree on these 4 facts about the Greek-Italian war: 1) Stopping Invasion, 2) Pushing Back Invaders, 3) Loss part of Italian-held Albania to the Greeks, 4) Stabilization of war's front line far behind from where it begun. More precisely the scholars agree that: 1) the war broke out when Italy invaded Greece through Albania. 2) the Greeks managed to overturn the invasion and drive all the Italian troops out of the Greek soil and back into Albania. 3) The war front was moved from Greece to Albania, and the Greek troops, not only managed to keep the Axis out of Greek soil for the remainder of this war, but also brought about 30% of the territory of the Axis-controlled Albania (then an Italian protectorate), under Allied and Greek control. 4) Eventually, the Italians managed to stabilize their front on Albanian soil but this doesn't negate their defeats and losses, nor the success of the Greeks against their invaders. The primary goal of the Greek efforts in this war was just to defend their homeland and not let anyone touch it. And no, the goal of the Greeks wasn't to defeat the Axis powers and save the planet, nor to invade Italy, nor to overthrow Mussolini from power. The Italian side failed in its offensive goals which was to conquer Greece, and the Greek side accomplished its defensive goals which was to keep invaders out of Greek soil.

This clearly is far from being a mere stalemate in the war, I am afraid. The Italians not only got defeated, but were UNABLE to recover back what territory they lost in Albania during this war. The Greeks not only defended their homeland, but crossed the border and took territory from a neighboring Axis-aligned country. -- SILENTRESIDENT 22:29, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for ignoring sources (weak and strong) and stating personal opinion is more valid.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:33, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Thing is the sources, the vast majority of, say the Italians failed in the war. what do you not understand here? -- SILENTRESIDENT 22:35, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

What do I not understand? Why you think your opinion means more, and why you are ignoring sources provided that contradict everything you are saying.

So far, to recap for you, the sources provided state: 1 - the Italian invasion was a failure; 2 - that by the end of the year the war had bogged down into a stalemate, a stalemate that was only broken by the escalation of the conflict.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:47, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

It's obvious that not a single source claims that "the campaign" was a "stalemate". Off course there were specific time periods (some weeks in December '40 and January '41, as provided above) where the battlefront remained unchanged due to bad weather/logistics conditions. Quite interesting is the fact that at the end of this war, Musolini stated that the results of his attacks were "zero". In our case the defender repulsed every single attack until the eve of the German intervention. This equals victory as stated by a mountain of bibliography.Alexikoua (talk) 22:52, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

The sources clearly do not state that this war was a mere stalemate. According to the sources, after the repulsion of the invasion, the Greeks had territorial gains in Albania and the Italians had territorial loses there in that war. The sources do not speak of stalemates at all. EnigmaMcmxc will have to explain himself. -- SILENTRESIDENT 23:05, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Am sorry, but are you guys just refusing to look at the multitude of sources that were presented with pages and quotes, all of which state the war was a stalemate and not just an Italian defeat following the repulse of their invasion? In good faith, assuming you are not ignoring the sources in purpose, ctrl f search stockings. If you continue to deny sources say the war was a stalemate I will copy and paste.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 23:20, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

These are opinions you are expressing here that don't belong in an encyclopedia. At this point you are REFUSING TO GET THE POINT and are engaging in constant denial of the sources and the facts, so it seems further discussion with you is a waste of time. -- SILENTRESIDENT 23:26, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

In military terms the attacker was defeated & the defender also managed to secure a bridgehead in enemy territory. The German bail out came after that. It's quite weird to call this a "stalemate".Alexikoua (talk) 00:01, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Alexikoua, thank you for your new sources, but I don't think adding more sources will change anything. There will always be people coming here to dispute this or that, engage in denial of facts and sources, and stick to their allegation or viewpoints, and CTRL+F the word Stalemate in a source in a desperate effort to dismiss any Greek advances in Albania instead of seeing the whole picture. Have a good day. -- SILENTRESIDENT 00:06, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Okay, I tried to assume good faith but you have declared yourself to be an ass (your allegation of distribution) who is apparently wilfully ignoring sources (already posted in this section that contradict your claim) and deliberately misreading posts to further avoid a rational discussion (I.e. ctrl f search this very page turned into a "desperate effort" to just argue). I can see why Annales got so frustrated!EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:38, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Lead

Lead: First Allied Victory

Proposed lead edit from Dr K

The defeat [repulse] of the Italians and the [ensuing] Greek counter-offensive have been called [by (add the surnames of the 2-3 most eminent historians that write this)] the first successful Allied land campaign against the Axis powers and that it helped raise morale in Allied Europe. I'm not sure about the source though, are there more eminent ones? The British OH describes the Greek war effort as being in decline. Keith-264 (talk) 15:56, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Endorse with one caveat. This is a WP:BLUESKY type situation. The repulsion of the Italian invasion and ensuing counter-offensive are the first successful Allied land campaign by virtue of the fact that there were no other successful Allied land campaigns prior to that (please don't mention Narvik, the Germans won on land in Narvik). Prestigious historian, as such scholars do not spend their time writing the obvious, so asking for surnames of eminent historians is a non-starter. It's like asking for the names of 2-3 eminent astronomers that the Earth is spherical or revolves around the sun.Athenean (talk) 01:08, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

A Keith's proposal that takes in account Athenean's notes, can be a very good ground for an everlasting solution to this issue. -- SILENTRESIDENT 16:27, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Last para of lead

On 12 April, the Greek army retreated from Albania to avoid being cut off by the rapid German advance and on 20 April, the Greek Epirus Army Section surrendered to the Germans. On 23 April, the armistice with Germany was repeated with the Italians, ending the Greco-Italian war. By the end of April, the Axis occupation of Greece had been completed by Italian, German and Bulgarian forces, with Italy occupying nearly two thirds of the country. The repulse of the Italian invasion and the Greek counter-offensive [in 1940] have been called [by (add the surnames of the 2-3 (or 1-2) most eminent historians that write this)] the first Allied land [victory] against the Axis powers and helped to raise morale in Allied Europe.

How about this? Does the article have this [the bold bit] and appropriate citations? Keith-264 (talk) 13:58, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

No but it can be added. Which 2-3 historians though? Athenean (talk) 05:52, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't know, If you could only mention one, who would you choose? Keith-264 (talk) 07:51, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

As far as I am aware off, it is not only 2-3 historians. it is more than 2 or 3 historians calling it the first allied victory. The problem for me is the following: under which criteria we choose the historians? Why the X historian's name is there but not the Y historian's one as well? Just, I can't help but have a bad feeling this is going to turn into a competition over which historian is more prominent or reliable than the others or whatever. A debate like that can be counter-productive to the article. We will have to find a better solution than this. How about: we cite the sources in which these historians describe the event? For example, sources instead of names, allows us to cite more than 2-3 historians at a time, without cluttering the lead with lists of names. What do you think? Isn't that a better solution for the lead? I mean, this way, the phrase retains its meaning, and at same time it is cited with all the necessary sources from the historians, and all this is accomplished without cluttering the lead with names, without distracting the readers more than needed, and this solution helps keeping the lead compact. -- SILENTRESIDENT 01:09, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Of the sources that you know, which closest fits the criterion of a Secondary source? If we lead it bald, we'll get added to it under WP:Weasel. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 08:45, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

References

By the way, among the authors/historians that claimed this first victory, the first one appears to be Cyril Falls, (7 December 1940):

Whatever this war may set on our country we must never forget the new debt which we owe to Greece. She is the first nation to inflict a defeat upon the ground forces of an Axis Power, and the very fact of her resistance to an attack has afforded us new opportunities at sea and in the air.[[14]]Alexikoua (talk) 22:16, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

I also noticed that some British politicians made similar statements during December 1940, such as H. Morisson.Alexikoua (talk) 22:16, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

In regards to the earlier comment in regards to adding a note to the main text, I believe the source Athenean recently added to the article should help to explain to readers why there are additional competitors. A small note that paraphrases or quotes the below, followed by a short comment that some look to Compass or el Alamein would help to ensure complete coverage (i.e. B2 on the review list). Comments? Objections?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 20:25, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Peter Ewer. Forgotten ANZACS: the campaign in Greece, 1941. Royal United Services Institute of New South Wales. p. 2: "Within weeks, the Italian army was in tatters, and the Greeks gave the Allied cause its first substantial victory on land in World War II, an achievement that has never received the recognition it deserves."

Mentioning Compass or El Alamein in the lede is too much detail. We can include that in the Aftermath section. For the lede how about we mention Cyril Falls and Peter Ewer? 06:45, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

I would like the wider Italian strategy given a cursory mention for context.

On 12 April, the Greek army retreated from Albania to avoid being cut off by the rapid German advance and on 20 April, the Greek Epirus Army Section surrendered to the Germans. On 23 April, an armistice [does this have a name?] with Germany was duplicated with the Italians, ending the Greco-Italian war. By the end of the month, all of Greece had been occupied by Italian, German and Bulgarian forces, with Italy taking over nearly two thirds of the country. The repulse of the Italian invasion and the Greek counter-offensive in 1940 helped to raise morale in Allied Europe and have been called by historians like Cyril Falls and Peter Ewer, the first Allied land victory against the Axis powers of World War II.

OK? Keith-264 (talk) 08:13, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

To clarify, I am not suggesting it should go in the lede, father this note would in the main body were this info would be duplicated and referenced.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 08:40, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

I would, to avoid Weasel.Keith-264 (talk) 08:48, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Two considerations: 1st I would drop the "like" cause it's too much of a generalization. 2nd that source speaked of "occupied" europe, not "allied". Uspzor (talk) 17:03, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

OK, regards Keith-264 (talk) 17:05, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't think it's due to mention the tripartite Italian-German-Bulgarian in this article, let alone the lead. That is clearly beyond the scope of the article. In fact the whole "Triple occupation" paragraph in the "Aftermath" section" should go (it was added by AnnalesSchool in the first place). Athenean (talk) 05:22, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

I think there's room for it as part of the aftermath; didn't we prune it extensively a while back when Annales's interpolations were being removed from lots of articles? That the Italians took over most of the country as an occupation army seems valid to me. I've nicked the section from Greece as it's more descriptive, see what you think. Keith-264 (talk) 08:47, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

On second thoughts, something of these lines could go in the analysis plus the map, once it's been revised to put the Greeks back in, it's far too parochial about Italy as it stands. Keith-264 (talk) 08:59, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

In the "Aftermath" perhaps, but not the lede. Athenean (talk) 05:12, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

OK Keith-264 (talk) 09:03, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

The last paragraph of the current lede can be removed entirely. Athenean (talk) 20:01, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

I made an integrated proposal for the lede at the bottom of the talkpage. I removed the last paragraph since there is next to nothing in the article about that, and added the sentence we seem to have agreed on regarding the "first Allied victory". Athenean (talk) 03:27, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Bibliography

[15] Stone & Stone bibliography, in case it hasn't already been pasted.Keith-264 (talk) 08:41, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Greek war aims

What were they? Keith-264 (talk) 09:34, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

As far as I know, the Greeks just wanted the repulsion of the Axis invaders from Greek soil. Why? -- SILENTRESIDENT (talk) 14:29, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

It's one way of measuring success. Obviously both sides had them so it's more of an indication but it can help when conventional definitions of terms aren't good fits.Keith-264 (talk) 18:52, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

I understand. If you want to measure the tide of the war (under the scope of the sources always), then, I propose the measurement of both sides's situations and gains before and during the war - the success can be hinted by comparing these informations. The gains for each side during the war - more precisely, the situation of Italy before the war and the Italian gains during the war, and the situation of Greece before the war and its gains during the war, and how these gains are in accordance with the expectations and goals for each side about this war.

So, according to the historians and scholars (the sources are provided in the article itself in case you want to check them out, so no need to re-post them here - I am just summarizing the key events here): When the war started, the Italians had 100% of Italy and 100% of Albania under their control. Their aim in this war was to conquer Greece. However, according to the sources, by April, it turned out that Italy not only failed to capture Greece, which was the Italian goal in this war, but also lost 20%-30% of the territory of its protectorate (Albania) to the Greeks. For the Greek side, this translates to success in their goal in defending their homeland (the Greeks still had 100% control of Greece), and also, taking over Italian-held territories in neighboring countries. With simple words, according to the records, the one side gained more than it had when the war broke out, and the other side lost more than it had when the war broke out. But if that now was not helpful for you, or it was not what you were asking for, then I apologize and you can ignore my comment and I wish you find the answers you are looking for. Have a good day. -- SILENTRESIDENT 23:00, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Recent Analysis edits

Weinberg is a tertiary source (a textual consolidation of primary and secondary sources) and a lousy one at that. If anyone wants to contradict Enigma's edits they need to discuss it here, [not make peremptory edits]. The article is quite eloquent on the structural problems of the Italian army in the late 30s and Weinberg wrote piffle.Keith-264 (talk) 08:25, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

"The long fight against the Italians had exhausted the Greek armies and drained the national resources. The political framework had begun to crack." Playfair, Vol II, pp. 83–84. Keith-264 (talk) 08:48, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Stockings, Swastika over the Acropolis, p. 45 further reinforces this point. Should be available on GoogleBooks for the editors.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 15:17, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

The analysis section in general is clearly one-sided: why the Italians were defeated? (or why they were unsuccessful, since "defeat" is a taboo word here), which the consequences of this Italian failure/disaster? etc. Needless to say that this section ignores the other side. A reader may also imagine that Italians were the only participants of this conflict, based on this section exclusively, because the entire analysis is based on them. I also wonder why a correct heading was removed about this part.Alexikoua (talk) 22:26, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

It's the significance of the defeats that did occur that is disputed. The Italian invasion ended in defeat since they got kicked out of Greece, the spring offensive was defeated and the Greek counter-offensive succeeded in liberating Greek territory and occupying 1/3 of Albania but didn't succeed in forcing the Italians to end the war. By the time of the German invasion, the Greeks had stripped the national defences to reinforce the Albanian front and compromised the national independence by relying on the British to fill the gap in the east. The Greek success can't be called decisive because it didn't have political consequences. This isn't to denigrate the Greek achievement but to describe it; tactically the Greeks won, operationally they won but strategically they hadn't won, when the Italo-Greek war was overtaken by events. Keith-264 (talk) 07:49, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

My concern about the Analysis section is that the current version deals with the Italian side only: Why they were defeated, who is to blame, army leadership? the impact on Italian Fascism, on Italian foreign policy, on Italian war ambitions etc, etc. I suggest the addition of similar information for the other side too: how the Italian invasion was received by the Greek leadership/people, impact on Greek morale, British reaction for the Italian disaster.Alexikoua (talk) 20:36, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

I didn't notice that the Greek side was unrepresented on this section. But now that you mention it... I don't see why this shouldn't be mentioned on the article. -- SILENTRESIDENT 02:06, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

An imbalance like this is usually due to the writer lacking sources; if we can remedy that, then sticking a name or two in the last para of the lead will be easy. Cyril Falls was one of the British official historians (he wrote the Macedonia volumes among others), a noted writer on military affairs and became the "Chichele Professor of Military History at All Souls, Oxford University from 1946 to 1953". Keith-264 (talk) 06:47, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Please don't mention users in talkpage headings, per WP:TALKNEW

Please don't make things worse by restoring a contentious edit, when the accuracy of the edit has been questioned and the source has been questioned on grounds of validity and reliability. Keith-264 (talk) 17:06, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

I have been observing the discussion for the moment. Please to all editors involved to do things and edits in good faith. If consensus cannot be reached there are also other forums and noticeboards on Wikipedia that can remedy the situation from third party input. Best.Resnjari (talk) 17:10, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

On a broader note, what bothers me is that having not looked at the article for some months while going back to the Somme, it seems further away from a B grade now than it did last year.

• Q. How many graduates does it take to bugger up a Wikipedia article?

• A. About five by the look of it. Keith-264 (talk) 17:13, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

LOL ! Keith, there are articles out there in much worse shape on the Balkans. This one one is child's play! As long as everyone sticks to good wp:reliable and wp:secondary references things can be worked out. Best.Resnjari (talk) 17:16, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Outcome of the war

I attempted assuming good faith, but as @SilentResident: has accused of me of pretty much lying and disruptive editing here on the talkpage, allow me to spell it out for him:

• Stalemate

Source and page number	Quote	Comment by Enigma.	Comment by Alexikoua
Stockings, Swastika over the Acropolis, p. 2	"...the fall and subsequent occupation of most of Greece ended a costly and embarrassing statement in Albania...".	P.45 reinforces the point of a stalemate ensuing between both sides, politically, militarily, and economically	This statement was obviously the result of the Italian defeat both in Greece and Albania
Hall, War in the Balkan, p. 117	"By mid-December, both sides had reached a stalemate..."		There was a stalemate mid-December but this doesn't concern the entire war, only a couple of weeks in December (in the middle of heavy winter by the way)
Hall, The Modern Balkans, p. 109	"... on 29 January 1941 the Greek government agreed to accept British land forces in an effort to the break the stalemate in Albania."		It would be immature to assume that the war resulted in a stalemate because there was a short term stalemate in late January (wasn't the Spring Offensive yet another humiliation for Mussolini? At least Mussolini accepted his defeat)
Shores and Cull, Air War for Yugoslavia Greece and Crete 1940-41, p. 63	"The New Year of 1941 found a situation of stalemate fast developing along the front line. ... The Greeks were practically exhausted by the tremendous exertions of their autumn counter-attacks ..."		wouldn't be weird to claim that the result was a stalemate because the Greek army was exhausted?
Swanston, The Atlas of Special Operations of World War II, p. ?	"The Greek Army had managed to hold off the Italian offensive into the country ... . A stalemate had been created along the Greek border ... and it remained as such until the German intervention..."		A stalemate was created along the Greek border? I don't think so, the Greek army captured nearly 1/3 of Albanian territory. By the way, what makes this "Atlas of ...." a non-tertiary source?
Latrides, Greece at the Crossroads, p. 319?	"Heavy winter and exhaustion produce a stalemate"		Didn't the war continue the following spring? Yes it did and it was followed by yet another humiliating defeat during "Operatione Primavera".
Ripley, The Wehrmacht, p. 108	"After modest initial Italian successes, however, the Greek Army forced the Italians back onto Albanian soil, until by December the fighting had degenerated into a stalemate."		Again, the post-December events are missing. The war ended in early April. In simple words it would be again weird to claim that the author claims that this war ended with a "stalemate".
McGrew, Educating across Cultures, p. 247	"There a stalemate ensued throughout the winter."	Weak source on the subject	Agree. Moreover the war didn't end during winter.
Marder, Stewards of the land, p. 188	"The invasion ... ended in the Italians' humiliating defeat ... the Greeks had pushed the Italian line back into Albania ... The Italians at this point were able to stablize their line ... reached a stalemate."	Weak source on the subject
Playfair, Vol II, pp. 83–84.	"The long fight against the Italians had exhausted the Greek armies and drained the national resources. The political framework had begun to crack."		This doesn't say a word about the supposed Italian "non-defeat"
James J. Sadkovich, The Italo-Greek War in Context, p. 455	"The Greeks thus did no more than stalemate Italy and efforts to claim victory in an 'Italo-Greek' conflict that was distinct from an 'Italo-German' war are not convincing."	Somewhat problematic author with claims of bias. His essay is an interesting read, however, that details a much more complicated war than a limited infobox would allow and would be further support to a link to the aftermath section.	Agree with Enigma.

• Some form of Greek victory

Source and page number	Quote	Comment
Bowman, Steven. The Agony of Greek Jews, 1940–1945. Stanford University Press. page 39	"Greece fought for nearly seven months. In the first stages (November 1940 through February 1941), she defeated Italy; in turn the German invasion of April 1941 overran the mainland in three weeks."
Philip Morgan. The Fall of Mussolini: Italy, the Italians, and the Second World War. p.?	"Yet, Italy's disastrous defeats in Greece and Albania, preceding and coinciding with those in Lybia, provoked in him 'an uncontainable anguish'."	More context is needed, although seems more in line with talking about the initial invasion
John Pollard. The Papacy in the Age of Totalitarianism, 1914-1958, p.?	"Italy suffered a series of military defeats—largely thanks to Mussolini's overambitious war aims and his strategic incompetence—in Greece in the winter 1940–1, in East Africa in 1941..."	Likewise
Peter C Smith. Stukas Over The Mediterranean, 1940-45: The Birth of the Butcher Bird, 1939-43 p. 6	"the Italians compounded their misery by launching an ill-advised invasion of Greece in October 1940, from bases in Albania. Again an initial advance acrosse the mountains in winter was turned into a defeat, then a retreat and a rout. As with the events at sea Hitler was forced to turn his eye from the east to the south and bail out his ineffective Axis partner."	Likewise

• Strictly talking about the Italian invasion, the Greek counterattacks, but not the overall war so not relevant in sourcing the outcome of the war

Source and page number	Quote	Comment
Weinberg, Gerhard. A World at Arms: p. 210.	"Certainly terrain and weather kept the Greeks from exploiting their victories..."	Only talks about the Greek counterattack, the quote does not reflect an opinion on the entire course of the war.
Lecoeur, Sheila. Mussolini's Greek Island: p. 25	"Mussolini's disastrous invasion of Greece..."	The war lasted longer than the invasion, so irrelevant
J. Foot. Italy's Divided Memory. p. 97	"...as France surrendered two weeks after Italy's entry into war, defeat came rapidly, first in Greece and Albania"	This is an extremely weak source, and this is pretty much all it says. It provides no context or actual analysis.
Bernd Jürgen Fischer. Balkan Strongmen: Dictators and Authoritarian Rulers of South Eastern Europe. p. 194	"... As the only active ally of Britain fighting in Europe, Greece, overcoming its comparative disadvantages, provided the first victory against Axis forces"	First victory is irrelevant to the discussion. The source goes on to state the "Greek advances stalled in early January 1941 ..." The source teases at stalemate, but acknowledges that the situation was more complex than some editors here would admit noting that the situation was a "humiliation for Mussolini but also an unexpected gain force Greece ...". It goes on to talk about pre-war boundary decisions, and hints at further analysis, which Google Books does not show.
Elisabetta Brighi. Foreign Policy, Domestic Politics and International Relations: The Case of Italy. p. 74	"First, Greece represented the first real defeat for the Axis, and had an enormous psychological impact upon both Italy and Germany"	Irrelevant to the discussion on the outcome, and more in line with the separate discussion on reinforcing - with better sources than were used - the point that the land campaign was the first Allied victory. Offers little in the way of actually providing information on the outcome of the whole war, and ventures into the more complex situation of Italy losing its freedom as a result of its actions.
Ian Kershaw. Fateful Choices: Ten Decisions That Changed the World, 1940-1941. p?	"The decision to invade Greece had been revealed as a calamitous folly. It was the first defeat for the seemingly invincible Axis forces."	Likewise
A. Medvedev,Roy Aleksandrovich Medvedev. The Unknown Stalin. p. 211	"...the Greeks managed to seize a bridgehead in Albania. This was the first serious defeat for what was known as the 'Tripartite Pact' or 'Berlin-Rome-Tokyo Axis'."	Likewise

Unless someone has a better way of displaying this info in a table, this will have to do for now. I will also add additional sources, brought up here and found elsewhere, as they crop up.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 01:16, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Lets pick up your quotes, one by one:

• '"...the fall and subsequent occupation of most of Greece ended a costly and embarrassing statement in Albania...".

This does not mention of the Greek advances that occurred in Albania BEFORE a statement has been reached.

• "By mid-December, both sides had reached a stalemate..."

Again this was after the Greek advances in Albania.

• "... on 29 January 1941 the Greek government agreed to accept British land forces in an effort to the break the stalemate in Albania."

Same as above.

• "The New Year of 1941 found a situation of stalemate fast developing along the front line. ... The Greeks were practically exhausted by the tremendous exertions of their autumn counter-attacks ..."

Same as above.

• "The Greek Army had managed to hold off the Italian offensive into the country ... . A stalemate had been created along the Greek border ... and it remained as such until the German intervention..."

This source conflicts with the other sources which confirmed the Greeks taking over 25% of Ablania's territory before frontline of the war was stabilized. So, the source claiming the front line to be on the Greek-Albanian border when the Greeks have gained territories inside Albania, makes no sense.

• "Heavy winter and exhaustion produce a stalemate"

This does not say that the Greeks didn't make advances in Albania.

• "After modest initial Italian successes, however, the Greek Army forced the Italians back onto Albanian soil, until by December the fighting had degenerated into a stalemate."

This again does not say that the Greeks didn't had any advances on Albanian soil.

• "There a stalemate ensued throughout the winter."

Same as above.

• "The invasion ... ended in the Italians' humiliating defeat ... the Greeks had pushed the Italian line back into Albania ... The Italians at this point were able to stablize their line ... reached a stalemate."

Note how this sources confirm that the Italian line is NOT on Greek-Albanian borders, but into Albania, due to the Greek advances.

Like how I have explained but you are refusing to see, the Greeks have made advances in the war (note: these advances were achieved after the repulsion of the invasion - the stalemate did not happen outright at the Greek-Albanian border as you got the impression here) Turning a deaf ear to the facts, does not help your arguments, no matter how many sources you cite with the word stalemate. The Greeks took over 30% of the italian protectorate and that that was before the Italian line was stabilized. So with simple words, according to the sources:

• 1) The stalemate didn't happen outright after the repulsion the invasion. Otherwise it could be a true stalemate (No Greek gains or losses, and no Italian gains or losses).
• 2) The stalemate was reached the moment the Italian line was stabilized, but AFTER the Italians endured one defeat after another and the Greeks taking over 30% of Albania's total territory under their control, but couldn't get more than this.
• 3) The stalemate was not due the Italians regaining what the lost in the war. The Greek gains in the war were not recovered by the Italians at no point during the war. The Italians were unable to restore their control over the entirety of Albania since then.
• 4) The stalemate is about the frontline not moving towards or backwards each side. The stalemate is not about the gains and losses each side endured/achieved during the war.

Again you are seeing a word but you are losing the full picture of the war. You are googling or CTRL+F the word stalemate, but you are turning a blind eye on what occurred BEFORE this stalemate was reached. This is not the way to go. Be careful, because you are WP:Cherrypicking the sources to misrepresent what happened in the war, using a certain word as excuse.

My conclusion: 1) You do not have concrete and solid proof that the Greeks didn't make any advances against the Italians on Albanian soil during the war. 2) You do not have any concrete and solid proof that the stalemate occured outright on the Greek-Albanian border to be declared a true stalemate for both sides. If you think you can pass this for a consensus, or change the established facts using these sources, then you are wrong. -- SILENTRESIDENT 01:38, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

No SilentResident, I am not cherrypicking (I wish I had not mentioned "Ctrl+F" now, as if you had read it in context it was to help you find the sources that had already been posted on this page prior to this table). I have been searching sources for what they describe the outcome of the fighting prior to the German intervention. The same accusation of cherrypicking can be said of you (and others), since you appear to only be accepting sources that define the fighting as a victory for the Greeks and drawing your own conclusions.

I note you have set up several straw man arguments: 1) the lack of mention of the Greek advances nullifying the information. This is kind of the point, overly focusing on the failed Italian invasion and the success of the Greek counterattack overlooks that the overall campaign had bogged down - per the sources - in a stalemate before the end. A stalemate that was only broken by the German intervention, resulting in the overall Greek defeat (the latter being outside the main scope of this article). 2) The repeated assertion that the front lines were not on the Greek-Albanian border, and therefore do not qualify as a stalemate. I would note, for example, that the term "stalemate" is used quite liberally in discussing the Western Front of the First World War, where the lines were deep inside French territory. A stalemate does not have to be on the border nor does the term have to meet the definition you subscribe to (which is irrelevant, as your definition is not a RS). It could have been on the gates of Rome, and have still been a stalemate as long as the sources say so.

Your conclusions, your summaries of events, etc, are meaningless. The majority of sources thus far, on the outcome of the war (not the invasion, nor the Greek counterattacks) prior to German intervention is that the fighting had reached a stalemate (with some sources expanding on this theme into economic, material, and political arenas). Thus far, the consensus of sources (and I will continue my search on a non-bias basis) is that stalemate had been reached. Just because you do not like it ("If you think you can pass this for a consensus, or change the established facts using these sources, then you are wrong"), does not change the simple fact that we have to follow wiki guidelines, and thus far, the historical consensus is against your entrenched position. I would like to note that , tomorrow if I manage to find a treasure trove of sources that state the Greeks won a decisive victory, or the Italians conducted a skillful strategic withdrawal to lure in the Greeks to sneakily wipe them out, or that aliens won the whole thing; they you will see my position shift with what the sources say - per wiki policy not my personal opinion.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:22, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

With simple words, you are insisting that the events that preceded a stalemate, are insignificant and do not count for the war's aftermath because of a stalemate? Are you saying that even if the Greeks took over the entire Italian peninsula except capital Rome, somehow negates this success in the war? And baptises their successful campaign a stalemate despite anything else in that war? Seriously, how do you expect this to make any sense? It worries me how, under this logic, a big chunk of world's war history, from ancient times to modern times, will possibly have to be re-considered. -- SILENTRESIDENT 02:40, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

What is worrying is that you further employ misrepresentation and straw man arguments as a counter, rather than follow wiki guidelines.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 09:53, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

There is no consensus among the sources that it was a stalemate. Sadkovich is extremely POV, and two of the stalemate sources are very weak (McGrew and Marder). Ditto Swanston. The mere fact that he says the stalemate was along the Greek border disqualifies him, as that is way off the mark. So dismissing weak and dubious sources, we're at 6-12 in favor of a Greek victory (you forgot to include Kassimeris, and your distinction between the conclusion of the war in totality and the Greek counterattack is meaningless - the war consisted of an Italian attack and a Greek counterattack, and nothing more). Athenean (talk) 02:59, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

If there was nothing other than the Greek counter, I suggest you issue a request to delete the whole section of the article that states otherwise.

Focusing on sources that detail just components of the whole, and presenting them as the gospel is not history; it is deliberate misrepresentation of the truth. The consensus, thus far, of sources is that the greater context of the war was a stalemate. If you think differently, you should be able to find sources that state so; not sources, as you have provided thus far, which fo us on the failed Italian invasion or just the counterattack. A source that does not fall in general terms, but provides context and analysis on how the war was won (since that was the jist of your editing to the article).

To note, I will add missed sources (and more sources) to the table when I have access to a laptop again. As for ignoring sour es you don't like (sadkovich) also flies against policy. His work is focused on the conflict, and as long as it is treated with care and no undue weight if is a perfectly RS.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 09:53, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Most of my sources are Anglocentric so tend to describe events in Greece and Albania as peripheral matters but Playfair I has some detail on the effect of the war in Albania dragging on, that both sides made sacrifices elsewhere and both were finding that the strain was undermining their armies and economies. The Greeks had stripped the defences in the east to send 13 divisions to the Albanian front and the Italians had given the front priority over North Africa. I don't think that anyone disputes the achievement of the Greek army in occupying 1/3 of Albania, only what was going to come next. The British and German interventions made the Italo-Greek war part of a bigger conflict so it's obviously difficult to come to a conclusion. Playfair writes that the Italian invasion was based on the assumption that there would be little resistance and that the speed by which the Greeks turned to the counter-offensive was another nasty surprise.pp.228-235 The counter-offensive failed to capture Tepelene and by January 1941, the possibility of a German invasion increased and this would make the Greek position "desperate", the weather caused great hardship and there were many frostbite casualties, clothes and boots were short as were vehicles and pack animals and there was only two months' artillery ammunition left. (Playfair stresses that the Greek army was equipped with French and German arms, for which the British had little ammunition and such French ammunition available in the US had already been sent or was en route. All the British could do was pass on captured Italian stocks from Libya.) pp.333-335 To release troops for the eastern front, the Greeks tried to capture Valona in mid-February but the weather deteriorated again and Tepelene was not captured and signs of an Italian attack in the centre, ended the prospect of a return to the offensive. p.337 Keith-264 (talk) 09:24, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

I have the translation of Cervi but he's such a discursive writer that it's difficult to find statements but on p.258 he wrote "It had been clear both to the Greeks and to the British in February that only minor movements were going to take place on the Albanian front.... To the Greeks it was a matter of understandable pride to have fought unaided in Albania but they had denuded their other frontiers. The German threat was faced by a void."Keith-264 (talk) 09:33, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

[16] Stalemate 1. A situation in which further action is blocked; a deadlock.

• [17] a contest, dispute, competition, etc., in which neither side can gain an advantage or win.
• [18] 1.1 A situation in which further action or progress by opposing or competing parties seems impossible: the war had again reached stalemate.

How about a brief description of the success of the Greek counter-offensive/counter-invasion, that a strategic stalemate followed and was then overtaken by the British-German interventions? This formulation can accommodate a desire to emphasis Greek success and the effect it had on world opinion without implying that the war with Italy had been won? Regards Keith-264 (talk) 10:36, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Keith, your proposal is a very balanced one. It takes in account the vast majority of the sources and gives a brief mention of the success and the stalemate that has followed it. This is a fair and nice compromise between the "victory" or "link to aftermath" proposals. You have my support on this. -- SILENTRESIDENT 16:22, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

I believe this is a reasonable summary of the situation. I appreciate Alexikoua comments, he is quite right that the fighting did not end with the winter, although I feel that some (clearly not all) of the sources support the notion in your position Keith.

Not to mention, i feel that this heavy debate clearly reinforces the point that the infobox should just link to the aftermath/Anyalsis section.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 15:11, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Keith's proposal is a very good idea here. I Agree with it since it takes in account all the sources, regardless, both the victory ones and the stalemate ones, and I believe a consensus can be reached on this. A brief mention of the success and the stalemate that has followed it, is a nice proposal and I don't have any problem with this from my part. -- SILENTRESIDENT 16:22, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

I also Agree with Keith's proposal. Athenean (talk) 05:54, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

So are we good with something along these lines for the infobox then: "Defeat of Italian invasion; Greek counterattack; Stalemate; German invasion of Greece"? Athenean (talk) 05:12, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

No, that is a description of events, not a result. The only things I think will go are 'inconclusive' or 'see Aftermath section'.Keith-264 (talk) 09:01, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Keith, I am sorry but I looked extensively these days on other WWII articles and guess what? NONE of them ever had the "See Aftermath" in their infoboxes. None! I have not seen even a single World War II article avoiding to mention the result of an ongoing conflict. If you look at any other WWII articles, you won't see any of them using the phrase "See Aftermath".

In WWII, we had many battles and war fronts in Europe that resulted in very complicated results that were not followed by treaties, but by more wars and more battles. We have all kinds of results - from defeats and failures to retreats and occupations, and yet, NONE of them uses a "See Aftermath" instead of key results, no matter how complicated they were...

Keith, it is true that the Greek-Italian war had some complications. None ever disputes this. Indeed, the particular war was followed by another war. But still, this does not negate by itself the results this war has brought to the rivaling parties and the rest of the region. The results of the wars have to be mentioned, regardless if you see them as simple or complicated, as ongoing or end with treaties. The infoboxes in every other article about WWII's battles, campaigns, operations and wars, always includes a brief summary of key results, regardless of how simple or complicated the war aftermaths were, and the Greek-Italian war can not be exception to this. If an war is complicated, as is the case of the Greek-Italian war, then. still, we pick up the most important of the results (Stalemate and German invasion) and have them mentioned on the infobox. If you are disputing this, then open up a new section and discuss about this. But until then, the Infobox's Results will have to be restored to the previous stable version or to an improved mention of the results. -- SILENTRESIDENT 19:45, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

It's all ready stable and consistent with the infobox result criteria.

• Siege of Lille (1940), Operation Retribution (1941), Operation Epsom, Battle of Villers-Bocage, Operation Pedestal, Battle of Bir Hakeim, Operation Goodwood, Italian invasion of France. That other articles are not written according to wikicriteria is no reason to copy their mistakes. RegardsKeith-264 (talk) 20:01, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

I see. A question. Could someone please point me to the Wikipedia article dedicated to Infobox Result rules? I checked the Manual of Style Infobox but it has no clear answer to this. I could really need to check this, as it is now troubling how some articles have results mentioned while some other articles do not. -- SILENTRESIDENT 20:09, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

What's wrong with "Defeat of Italian invasion; Greek counterattack; Stalemate; German invasion of Greece"? It informs the reader of the result in succinct fashion which is the point of the infobox in the first place. What's the point of having an infobox if all you're going to have is "see aftermath"? Athenean (talk) 20:10, 2 August 2016

It isn't a result, its a description of events; Template:Infobox military conflict see here.

• result – optional – this parameter may use one of several standard terms: "X victory", "Decisive X victory" or "Inconclusive". The choice of term should reflect what the sources say. In cases where the standard terms do not accurately describe the outcome, a link to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail (such as "See the 'Aftermath' section") should be used instead of introducing non-standard terms like "marginal" or "tactical" or contradictory statements like "decisive tactical victory but strategic defeat". It is better to omit this parameter altogether than to engage in speculation about which side won or by how much. Keith-264 (talk) 20:48, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

No, not every infobox has to have "X Victory", Decisive X Victory", or "inconclusive" as a result. Many infoboxes have Results fields exactly as I am proposing. Russo-Turkish War (1686–1700), [Caucasus Campaign], [Roman–Parthian War of 58–63], [Byzantine–Sasanian War of 572–591], and many others. The purpose of infoboxes is to inform. Athenean (talk) 02:52, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Then they aren't coherent with WP criteria. In all fairness I didn't know that the criterion existed until a couple of years ago and I'm still finding articles where I made this mistake.Keith-264 (talk) 14:53, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

The current proposal does not provide the "outcome" of the war, it details the outcome of each section. Big difference, which has been discussed to death.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 12:23, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

The outcome was the tripartite occupation of Greece, but I don't think you are willing to added it, are you? Uspzor (talk) 13:05, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

That came after the German invasion. The Italo-Greek war became a prelude to this.Keith-264 (talk) 14:53, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Analysis

Had a look to see if it shed any light on the "first Allied victory" question but found only references to the Italian failures. The first four lines of the section are a copy from the lead (complete with bold words too) which seems a bit odd. I would have deleted it but we're blocked for the moment. Perhaps we should revise the Analysis to add the Greek and global perspective first?Keith-264 (talk) 09:18, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, it largely needs to be rewritten. The repetition of the first four lines of the lede must have been an unintended consequence of the recent events. Athenean (talk) 07:00, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, I've just been poring over Porch but he's another discursive writer and doesn't sum up the Greek war effort against Italy in the way we need. Are there enough writers who are RS to call the Greek victory view a school of thought? Keith-264 (talk) 07:41, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Biased lead: 2nd paragraph

It's obvious that the 2nd lead paragraph should not be part of this article. In fact the background information about the war should provide a very brief summary about "both" Italian and Greek preparations and not about the strategic moves of Italy during World War II... in the Balkans, Mediterrennean, Italian-German policy and Italian-British conflicts. It would be a good addition for the lead in "Italy during World War II" though. On the other hand the 3rd lead paragraph should be expanded since it concerns the core events of this article.Alexikoua (talk) 18:34, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's obvious, since it puts Mussolini's strategy qua Greece into the context of his war strategy per se.

[A sentence or two here about Italian imperial aspirations and Mussolini's intentions towards Greece, Greek policy of maintaining its independence] The Italian invasion of Albania had been ordered by Benito Mussolini in the spring of 1939. Mussolini declared war on the Allies on 10 June 1940 and attacked France, British Somaliland and invaded Egypt, then invaded Greece. [A sentence or two here about the importance of conquering Greece and the military effect it would have on the wider war, importance of speed, British involvement]

how about something like this? Regards Keith-264 (talk) 08:51, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, that would be fine. Athenean (talk) 01:09, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Based on the above example, I believe a balanced 2nd lead paragraph will be:

The Italian invasion of Albania had been ordered by Benito Mussolini in the spring of 1939. Mussolini declared war on the Allies on 10 June 1940 and attacked France, British Somaliland and invaded Egypt. Then, as part of his imperial ambitions, turned his attention to Greece. The latter began making defensive preparations for an Italian attack. Moreover, Greek leader Ioannis Metaxas wisely rejected a premature dispatch of token British forces, which would precipitate a German intervention. Meanwhile, Greek-Italian tensions mounted as a result of a continued anti-Greek campaign in the Italian press, combined with provocative Italian actions which culminated with the sinking of the Greek light cruiser Elli.

Alexikoua (talk) 20:19, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

¨ Agree with the proposal. Looks good to me. Cuts down on the current bloat. Athenean (talk) 06:21, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

The Italian invasion of Albania had been ordered by Benito Mussolini in the spring of 1939. Mussolini then declared war on the Allies on 10 June 1940 and invaded France, British Somaliland and Egypt by September. Greece had begun defensive preparations against an Italian attack but the Prime Minister Ioannis Metaxas rejected the offer of British forces, because were insufficient to defeat a German invasion but enough to provoke one. Greek-Italian relations continued to deteriorate, with an anti-Greek campaign in the Italian press and other Italian provocations, which culminated in the sinking of the Greek light cruiser Elli on 15 August 1940.

a slimmer version. Keith-264 (talk) 06:39, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Agree . I feel ashamed for not seeing the problem sooner, given how frequently I was visiting this article in the past. Your proposals look good. -- SILENTRESIDENT 10:56, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

;o) I bet you aren't blushing as much as me....Regards Keith-264 (talk) 11:43, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Well... maybe, a bit... :-) . -- SILENTRESIDENT 18:37, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

We have an agreement then.Alexikoua (talk) 20:54, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Analysis copyedit

The Italian campaign was poorly prepared and Mussolini's "quick and relatively easy victory" turned to defeat and stalemate, which exposed the incompetence of Fascist government and its war machine. Italian soldiers suffered great hardship in the Albanian mountains, "due to the incompetence and unforgivably bad planning of their leaders". The Italian army fought in difficult terrain, short of clothing and equipment, with units being split up as they arrived. Paoletti criticised Mussolini for "criminal improvidence", in causing the great number casualties of the Italian army. [clearly the Greeks had something to do with this too] The German invasion "went smoothly, because the Greek army was concentrated against the Italians".

Sadkovich wrote in 1993 that the effect of the Italo-Greek war had been exaggerated by other authors, because Axis victories in the spring of 1941 cancelled the Italian defeats of the previous winter. During the war against Greece, the quantity of soldiers, merchant ships, escort vessels and weapons which Italy allocated to the Greek front was much greater than those for the invasion of Egypt. In 1995, Gann and Duignan wrote that the fighting in France, Yugoslavia and Greece reduced Italy to the status of a [German] satellite. According to Kershaw in 2007, Italian aspirations to great power status were ended by the Greek failure, the Battle of Taranto (11–12 November 1940) and the loss of Cyrenaica (9 December 1940 – 9 February 1941).

References

Did this to prune the existing text, clearly the Greek side is missing and needs to be represented. Thoughts? Keith-264 (talk) 09:21, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

That's a good pruning, and yes, the current analysis section is exclusively focused on the Italians, with almost nothing on the Greek side. Also missing are evaluations of the impact of the Greco-Italian war on WW 2 as a whole. For example I distinctly remember reading in Keegan that the German intervention delayed the start of Operation Barbarossa (and I believe there are others that dispute this). Athenean (talk) 05:09, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, the first para contains tactical detail and strategic consequences are in the second but they are only half what's needed because the Greeks are missing. It used to be a commonplace in Anglo-centric writing but these days, I think there is consensus that it was the late spring in Poland that determined the start of Barbarossa. I don't think it would be wrong to mention that in the past the delay was considered to be caused by Greek-British resistance and I have seen recent writing which doesn't discount entirely the delay thesis, particularly on the preparations of Army Group South. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 08:59, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Headers

Why is there

• 4.3 End of the Greek offensive and the Italian Spring Offensive (6 January – 6 April 1941) and
• 4.3.2 Italian Spring Offensive?

wouldn't it be better to separate them to

• 4.3 End of the Greek offensive
• 4.3.2 Italian Spring Offensive? Keith-264 (talk) 11:05, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Yeah it is strange it is repeated. This needs to be corrected. -- SILENTRESIDENT 03:58, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Lede proposal

The Greco-Italian War (Greek: Ελληνοϊταλικός πόλεμος Ellino-italikόs pόlemos), also known as the Italo-Greek War and the Italian Campaign in Greece (Italian: Campagna italiana di Grecia), was a conflict between Fascist Italy and Greece which lasted from 28 October 1940 to 23 April 1941. The conflict marked the beginning of the Balkans campaign of World War II. The conflict morphed into the Battle of Greece with the intervention of Nazi Germany on 6 April 1941. In Greece, the war against Italy is known as the "War of '40", or the "Epic of '40".

The Italian invasion of Albania had been ordered by Benito Mussolini in the spring of 1939. Mussolini then declared war on the Allies on 10 June 1940 and invaded France, British Somaliland and Egypt by September. Greece had begun defensive preparations against an Italian attack but the Prime Minister[,] Ioannis Metaxas[,] rejected the offer of British forces, because were insufficient to defeat a German invasion but enough to provoke one. Greek-Italian relations continued to deteriorate, with an anti-Greek campaign in the Italian press and other Italian provocations, which culminated in the sinking of the Greek light cruiser Elli on 15 August 1940.

On 28 October 1940, after Metaxas rejected an Italian ultimatum demanding the occupation of Greek territory, Italian forces invaded Greece from Albania. The Greek army counter-attacked and forced the Italians to retreat. By mid-December, the Greeks occupied nearly a quarter of Albania, tying down 530,000 Italian troops. In March 1941, Operation Spring (Operazione Primavera), an Italian counter-offensive failed and on 6 April, Nazi Germany intervened, invading Greece through Bulgaria and Yugoslavia, beginning the Battle of Greece.

The repulse of the Italian invasion and the Greek counter-offensive in 1940 been called the first Allied land victory of World War II by historians such as Cyril Falls and Peter Ewer, and helped to raise morale in Allied Europe.

Proposed Athenean (talk) 03:23, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

It is a good start, but it needs to clarify one or two things. 1) The mention of Greece joining the Allies on the onset of the Italian invasion is not mentioned on the 3rd paragraph as it should. 2) The word Axis needs to be mentioned once in the entire lead as this war was part of the broader Axis VS Allies clash. And 3) the "tying down 530,000 Italian troops" is not accompanied with figures of the Greek side's loses in Albanian mountains. Perhaps either mentioning a figure of the Greek troop losses could present both sides equally... -- SILENTRESIDENT 03:57, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

1st&2nd paragraph are fine. The 3rd paragraph describes the core of this article (it's all about this Greco-Italian conflict). Thus, some minor additions may be appropriate, for example that Greece was Britain's only ally that time, or that the Greek army retreated only after the Germans were at its back.Alexikoua (talk) 05:24, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Agree, I would put two commas in (shown by the []) and alter "tying down" to "against" and might add that the aggression against Greece was at the expense of other fronts in the "strategic" paragraph. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 07:08, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

I see a major problem with this: it is the lovely dovey version of history. There is no mention that the war bogged down into a stalemate or if the drain it had on both sides. No mention of the geopolitical nature of the conflict, no explanation as to why Germany intervened. For the Italians, the war not end with the German intervention and conveniently the Greek defeat and occupation is removed.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 12:29, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

It's missing the most direct consequence of the war that it was three and a half years of occupation, and no, it didn't raise morale in allied Europe.Uspzor (talk) 13:05, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

EnigmaMcmxc and Uspzor, please, this lead is about the Greek-Italian War, not about the Battle of Greece. The lead must summarize what events this article is about, not with the outcome of the Battle of Greece which is covered on a separate article. The editor Athenean has included already a link to the Battle of Greece in the proposal and this is all what we can do as per WP:Lead. -- SILENTRESIDENT 13:35, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Silent, this is the Italo-Greek war, in which both sides were beginning to wilt under the strain and then became the victims of Great Power rivalry before this impasse was resolved. How can we go further if there aren't the sources in the main text? There is very little detail on the economic consequences of the war like the balance of payments, inflation, economic dislocation of the farming sector and the risk of famine. We need this to justify more detail in the lead of the ramifications of the failure of the Primavera Offensive and for how long the stalemate could have continued. Does anyone have a copy of Mazower handy? Regards Keith-264 (talk) 15:00, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

I partially agree with you Keith, that the proposed less is missing the geopolitical and economic impact. However, it feels like blatant historical revisionism to end a summary of the war with the Greeks won the first victory of the war for the Allies. The conflict may have morphed into the German-British Battle of Greece, but the Italians and Greeks did not stop fighting each other the culmination of the Italians starting the war was that Greece was occupied. More than lip service should be given to this.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 15:07, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

EnigmaMcmxc, thing is, Greece was not occupied as result of the Greek-Italian war, and all the scholars in the world - I literally am emphasizing the word ALL here - agree that the Occupation of Greece was the result of the Battle of Greece, not of the Greek-Italian War by itself. After all, it is reasonable why the Scholars call it an Axis Occupation and not Italian Occupation. Because the combined Axis forces of Germany, Italy and Bulgaria attacked the Ally power simultaneously from multiple fronts; Italy from the northwest, Germany from the north, and Germany with Bulgaria from the northeast. And therefore, like how I said previously: in this article's lede summary, we can't include things that happened much later, at a different phase of the World War II and are out of the context of Greek-Italian War. The Battle of Greece should not be confused with the Greek-Italian War, as these are two distinct events, even if the one was triggered by the other. To make it simple for you, the outcome of the Greek-Italian War was the triggering of the Battle of Greece, not the eventual Axis occupation of Greece. -- SILENTRESIDENT 15:31, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

The outcome of the Italio-Greek war was neither the first Allied victory of the war, but that is what the spin here is. Completely ignoring context is appalling. As repeatedly stated, yet your long replies are ignoring, was that there was a larger geopolitical game at play that resulted in the expansion of the conflict and ultimate defeat and occupation of Greece; paying lip service to that and literally ignoring (claiming a victory and stating any defeat should be in another article) is revisionism.

Your hyperbolic comments on literally all the scholars in the world ignoring context is false, and we both know it.

What are your comments (since you have not addressed neither mine or Keith's) on the lack of commentary on the economic and political consequences inside Greece and Italy as a result of the conflict?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 17:12, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Seems to me that leaving out the result of the Battle of Greece and treating the Greco-Italian War basically as an unqualified success would be akin to discussing the Second Sino-Japanese War as a great success for Japan and quietly ignoring what happened after December 1941. The German intervention and subsequent occupation was a direct result of the war, and it should be presented in the introduction. Parsecboy (talk) 18:28, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

There was two rfcs about this and the consensus was to keep it as it is now, the war ended with the greek armistice and the infobox, lead and sections of the article alike demonstrates that. It isn't because the battle of greece is a separated topic that one must end after the other begin, there is plenty of things that can run simultaneous. Uspzor (talk) 18:51, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

The repulse of the Italian invasion and the Greek counter-offensive in 1940 been called the first Allied land victory of World War II by historians such as Cyril Falls and Peter Ewer and helped to raise morale in Allied Europe.

I don't think that this is a swaggering claim of victory but a careful and nuanced summary of the article. Repulse, counter-offensive, land and 1940 seem pretty specific, not a claim about the Italo-Greek war per se. Certainly enough to justify Inconclusive or See Aftermath Section in the infobox. Keith-264 (talk) 18:59, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

The statement is moreover sourced, and carefully worded. I don't see any issue here. @ Uspzor: There were never any Rfcs or consensus regarding anything, so let's not pretend otherwise. Unless you can provide links to those purported Rfcs. If people feel we should add stuff about economic effects, geostrategic considerations, that's fine I see no problem there. Can someone draft something up? But I draw the line at stuff that occurred after the German intervention because after that it's the Battle of Greece, a separate article. Besides there is nothing in the article about the armistice, purported continuing fighting with the Italians, etc...It pretty much ends with the battle of Greece. The lede should be a summary of the article, and not include stuff not present anywhere in the article. Athenean (talk) 20:23, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

If you had read the first section of this series, the one I made to remind you about what was accorded but you had conveniently forgotten, you would have seen it; or maybe you're just pretending there isn't anything again, who knows. That's why I think all this is a big waste of time, why enter in a consensus about something if in three months all will be forgotten and started anew? Uspzor (talk) 05:17, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

It was until the radical reorganization and sourcing of the article a few months (a year?) ago. Just because there is nothing expansive in the article does not provide a rational for excluding it from the lede. Your right, the lede should be a reflection of the article; and in this case, the article (while rightly focusing on the Italo-Greek fighting rather than the whole conflict including the expansion and German invasion) is lacking some information. You are all right that it should not go into massive detail, but the current comments here appear to be pretending that the Italian-Greek fighting was in a vacuum. The geopolitical surrounds of the conflict resulted in escalation, and resulted in the defeat of the Greeks: lip service should not be paid.

In addition, just to clarify, the comment about the Greek counterattack lifting the morale within occupied Europe; that is sourced to something other than Terrorism in Greece right? We were previously able to find better sources to support the notion of the first allied victory, surely (if this is the case) we can find a better source for the morale comment. Note: Only if the previous assumption is correct.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:20, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Further clarification for previous comment on final sentence of proposed lede: The issue is more of where it is placed. At the end, it is making a statement. Personally, I would argue it should be placed in its chronological place with the final word being the German intervention and ultimate fate of the conflict. I would also seek clarification on the 530,000 Italian troops tied down. The figure only appears in the current lede, and not the article. Where exactly where they tied down from being deployed too? Sources on Italian logistical capability note Italian plans and actual deployments of less than 200,000 men to Libya during the whole war (presumably after Compass took out the majority of those forces already based there).EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:29, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Dear EnigmaMcmxc, you are calling my comments as hyperbolic, but it is not my sticking to the facts the hyperbole here. Is your event revisionism that is striking. You want to re-write the article to suit your tastes(?), you want to include content in there that is already covered by other articles, you are profoundly underrating the one side in the war and expressed bias toward the other, and you are constantly raising objections to Keith's and Athenean's efforts and proposals, (or at least, partially agreeing with them but never really giving your full consent for once). Furthermore you are diminishing what some scholars have described as the first Allied land victory for some unknown reason that escapes me and you are insisting on selective picking of certain sources about the stalemate to prove and illustrate your point, and you are avoiding to acknowledge that at least two-third of the sources also stated otherwise from the "stalemate" thing. If that wasn't enough, you are trying to confuse the Greek-Italian war with the Battle of Greece even if the Greek people and the historians marked them and treat them separately (but not unrelated...). And like how I noticed - you are diminishing the facts about this war and you are constantly insisting on your personal perceptions that are very different from the way the Wikipedia community has treated these historical events so far. A God knows what more can be expected from you. I am really sad and disappointed, because a constructive attitude from us the users is required to achieve a consensus and move on with other articles. So be it. Call me hyperbolic, keep reducing what I have said as "being false and wrong", insist with your personal opinions about this war, and keep raising objections and even dispute the other people's suggestions and proposals. But at least, I can hope, that, while you keep with this attitude, you are acknowledging that you are not harming just only yourself or me. You are, above all, undermining the article and any attempts to improve its quality. I am really sad. Well, in my case, I believe that Keith, Athenean, Dr. K, and Alexikoua have made some very reasonable proposals or statements that avoided WP:Cherrypicking and are in line with WP:Lead and cover the entire field of sources about that time period, which I will not ignore but fully support and endorse them from my part. -_- -- SILENTRESIDENT 21:52, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Yet another long winded rant that takes out of context what I stated. I also note, yet again, you completely avoid relevant questions and focus on your out of context attacks. I am also fed up of the continual accusations of cherry picking (highly ironic considering your own attitude towards sources). Not to mention, it is not only me with an issue with the current proposal.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:09, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Well the reason I added it at the end is because this kind of material belongs in the "Aftermath" and Analysis section, which is at the end of the article, and I figured the last paragraph of the lede should be an "aftermath and analysis" type paragraph. We can add more to it if you like (like the effect the war had on the Italian war effort). But I think the lede should end with an ""aftermath and analysis" type paragraph. Athenean (talk) 21:49, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

I concur with such an attitude towards the lede. However, the current proposal only provides a limited summary of the current article. As you note yourself, additional information is needed to provide not only a balanced summary of the article but also a complete one. Regards, EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:09, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, dear Athenean, I could have done the same. -- SILENTRESIDENT 22:01, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

@Enigma: Well, do you have any concrete suggestions? what else would you like in there? Please be specific. I'm all ears. This would be a whole lot easier if you actually made suggestions and proposals of your own instead of just objecting. Athenean (talk) 02:12, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Actually there's a paragraph about it in the current lead, that would be a good start. Uspzor (talk)_ —Preceding undated comment added 05:35, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

I will take you up on your challenge, although you will have to wait until later today. I also note that the raising of morale in Europe is covered (and sourced) in the below section regarding the revamp of the anyalsis section, so that alleviates that concern. The only other point (other than the current discussion on wording) is the issue of number of Italian soldiers "tied down". Looking over the article, that appears unsourced.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 12:29, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

@ everyone; I don't think any of us are happy with the compromises being negotiated but that we are all moving to a version we can live with (more or less) until new sources turn up that support one view or another. Clearly for us anglophones, the literature available is not comprehensive or easily available; I made an approach to the Greek general staff history section but I fear that they are busy with the ECB occupation. I'd like more detail on how both sides organised their war in Albania - signalling, engineering, roads, vehicles or pack animals, medical services, ammunition states, flows of reinforcements and replacements etc. Keith-264 (talk) 08:40, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

@Keith-264: Exactly. That is the spirit. -- SILENTRESIDENT 09:40, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

@everyone: Every person here may have his own perceptions of past events and personal opinions and this is very natural and democratic. But thing here is, Wikipedia is not democracy as some people may think. Compromises are needed to be made - the proposals do not satisfy me 100%, but I have already given my consent because this is how consensus can be reached - we are not supposed to be 100% satisfied, and we can not be 100% satisfied with anything, anyways. After all, Wikipedia is based on facts and the editors will have to stick on them and not allow for the article's quality to be derailed because of different opinions. If changes to the article's perception of historical events have to be made, (like how certain events are told or portrayed), these changes will have to be accompanied with strong, reliable and indisputable sources in the first place. Unless such sources are provided, the lead of the article will have to be written in compliance with WP:Lead and the current sources. Nothing more, nothing less. And Athenean's Lede proposal is exactly that: it does not make everyone 100% happy, but gets the job done. -- SILENTRESIDENT 09:38, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm posting in response to the request made at WT:MILHIST. The lead proposed above generally looks good to me, but I'm not a fan of the final paragraph. I'm not familiar with Cyril Falls, but I am aware of Peter Ewer and he's a fairly little known author with no formal academic qualifications as a historian whose only work on this topic is a popular history focused on the experiences of Australian and New Zealand troops. As such, while he does qualify as a reliable source, I question why so much weight is being placed on his view? - what do the leading historians on this topic say? More generally, the claim that the campaign represented the "first Allied land victory of World War II" seems somewhat dubious - the British and French achieved tactical victories in Norway, the French did a good job of defending the Maginot Line, the delaying action around Dunkirk was an very important success and by 1940 the Chinese had won a number of significant victories over the Japanese. Nick-D (talk) 06:06, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Ewer can go for me, Cyril Falls and Mark Mazower (I found my copy yesterday) were put in because the claim was vigorously challenged on the grounds you had laid out above. I'd suggest that the Italian repulse was a bigger defeat than the tactical successes of the Anglo-French in Norway and France. I wouldn't include the war between Japan and China as it was local, not part of the Second World War until December 1941; you might as well add the Changkufeng Incident and Battles of Khalkhin Gol. I rather hope that the wording and the inclusion of names makes it clear that it is included as a claim made by historians in the field, because this is a compromise between editors who are sceptical and those who want the point mentioned for context. Because that war was overtaken by the interference of the British and Germans, there is a rather ragged "end of the Italo-Greek war–beginning of the Battle of Greece"; the Italo-Greek war limped on until the end of hostilities. That said, I'm glad that you've taken an interest because I feel the need for fresh eyes. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 08:49, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Revision proposal

In regards to Athenians' request, I have provided a rough suggestion largely based off the information in the article unless otherwise stated. In an effort to make discussion/argument/fighting easy, and to the point, I have broken each section up; so let the fun begin.

Opening para, brief overview

The Greco-Italian War (Italo-Greek War, Italian Campaign in Greece; Greek: War of '40 and Epic of '40), took place between the Kingdoms of Italy and Greece from 28 October 1940 to 23 April 1941. The war began the Balkans Campaign of World War II and turned into the Battle of Greece when British and German ground forces intervened in early 1941.

Comments

• I felt the initial proposal above was okay, although in light of being asked to provide my own suggestion here is largely a reorganization of what has already been suggested in direct proposals and discussion.
• Per the RFCs on Nazi Germany, consensus and precedent has been established that inserting political prefixes should be avoided; long story short, there has not been a country called "Nazi Germany" or "Fascist Italy".
• In addition, the various names of the war have been placed together rather than spread out. There appears to be no need for the Greek name of the war to be tagged on the end.
• I have the following questions:

1. Do we need the Italian and Greek translations of the respective English terms (thus, for the moment removed)? I note other articles avoid translations.

• • The ones I work on (WWI tend to have the British name with the French and German names in brackets

1. What is the preferred term in Italy and Greece: World War II or the Second World War?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 23:12, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

For the Greek side, the term used is just Second World War (Β' Παγκόσμιος Πόλεμος; B' World War) but I doubt it does matter really since the translation/transliteration in this article has to be about the Greek-Italian war rather than the 2nd WW. -- SILENTRESIDENT 23:47, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Looks good except two minor things: It should be made clear that "war of '40" and "epic of '40" are the names of the war in Greece. As far as I know it is not referred to that way anywhere else. Also, it should be "morphed/turned into/evolved into the Battle of Greece". Athenean (talk) 06:23, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

True that. -- SILENTRESIDENT 07:27, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

 Done

Question: Is the British involvement significant enough to be mentioned in the first paragraph of the lede? Athenean (talk) 03:20, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes if the Germans are going to be mentioned. Became and turned into aren't quite right but I want to avoid flabby terms like overtaken, subsumed or escalated.Keith-264 (talk) 08:42, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

2nd Para, background

In the mid-1930s, the Italian Prime Minister Benito Mussolini began an aggressive foreign policy and occupied Albania in the spring of 1939. World War II began on 3 September and on 10 June 1940, Italy declared war on the Allies, invaded France, British Somaliland and Egypt by September and prepared to occupy Greece. In the late 1930s the Greeks had begun the Metaxas Line and from 1939 had accelerated defensive preparations against an Italian attack. In 1940, there was a hostile press campaign in Italy and other provocations, culminating in the sinking of the Greek light cruiser Elli by the Italians on 15 August, (a Greek religious festival). On 28 October, Mussolini issued an ultimatum to Greece, which the Prime Minister, Ioannis Metaxas, rejected with the word 'Οχι ("No!").

Comments

• I have opted for an expanded background to provide context to Italy's actions, as well as to bring the reader up to the point of war.
• I have removed mention of Metaxas rejecting the offer of British. As far as I can tell, this happened in December and thus is out of place here.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 23:12, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Looks good, just a few suggestions: It should be made clear that the Elli was sunk by an Italian submarine, and that the 15th of August is a major religious holiday in Greece, which is why the Italians chose that date. Also, it should be mentioned that Metaxas rejected the Italian ultimatum with a single word "No" ("Oxi" in Greek), and for this reason the 28th of October is a major national holiday in Greece with the name "Oxi day". I also feel this paragraph should end with Metaxas' "No", and mention of the fighting begin in the next para. Athenean (talk) 06:23, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

 Done put the feast day in but you might want to modify the form.

I don't think the submarine is necessary but agree that Italian culpability needs to be explicit.Keith-264 (talk) 08:42, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

15 August is the Dormition of the Mother of God, a feast which has its own article. The feast commemorates the date of death of the Theotokos (Mother of God), the title used for Mary, mother of Jesus. It is a Great Feast of the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches, not just Greece. The Catholic equivalent feast is the Assumption of Mary which is celebrated on the same day. Some Anglican Communion churches also celebrate the feast. Lutherans consider this to be a minor feast, but do include it in their Calendar of Saints. This is one on the major days of the Christian calendar. Dimadick (talk) 17:16, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Now that I think of it,I don't see why we need to mention Ethiopia and the Spanish civil war. It makes no sense. We say Mussolini wanted to build a mediterranean empire and then we mention ethiopia. Also the Spanish civil war had nothing to do with building a mediterranean empire. It is sufficient to mention that Mussolini wanted a mediterranean Empire and annexed Albania to that end. Athenean (talk) 03:56, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Also, "sinking of the light cruiser Elli by an Italian submarine" is grammatically far better than "the Italian sinking of the cruiser Elli". "Italian sinking" just sounds weird. Athenean (talk) 04:01, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Any better?Keith-264 (talk) 12:41, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Is the religious day really necessary? It would only be important as part of the Italian decision to strike, which author does this correlation? Uspzor (talk) 21:03, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

I fear so if you want consensus.Keith-264 (talk) 06:56, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

3rd para, the meat and potatoes

The Italian army invaded Greece but the 140,000 troops of the Italian Army in Albania were poorly equipped, hampered by the mountainous Albanian-Greek border and tenacious resistance by the Greek Army, which stopped the invasion just over the border. The Greeks counter-attacked, pushed the Italians back over the Albanian frontier and occupied southern Albania. The Italian repulse and the Greek counter-offensive of 1940 have been called the first "first Axis setback of the entire war" by Mark Mazower, the Greeks "surprised everyone with the tenacity of their resistance". The war continued and in December, to avoid provoking German intervention, Metaxas rejected a British offer of troops to go with the Royal Air force (RAF) squadrons already in Greece. After reinforcing the Albanian front to 28 divisions, the Italians conducted a spring offensive in 1941, which also failed. By February, the 14 Greek divisions in Albania were under great strain and had run short of artillery ammunition in repulsing the Italian offensive; the loss of imports and food shortages also undermined the Greek economy. The failings of the Italian Fascist regime were exposed by the débâcle against Greece and defeats against the British in Africa.

Comments

• Per the various discussions, I have opted to mix the chronological and analytical sections into a single narrative
• Removed the the comment about "tying down 530,000 Italian troops", since it is not sourced in the article and no context is provided.
• "Allied Europe": I note the source for the increase in morale, although based off the source used are we talking just about the British? If so, I would suggest further rewording.
• Commentary on the taxing of both sides comes from Stockings and Playfair. It is something that can be refined and built upon (and more importantly added into the main part of the article)
• Keith has noted additional issues for the Greeks including inflation. I only have access to some of Stockings' comments at the moment, so I have avoided adding this in at the moment to avoid potential mis-wording.
• Likewise, without access to more varied sources - at the moment - I have not expanded upon the logistical suggestions. Although I note several sources complaining of the Italian divisions being shipped to Albania with next to no motorized vehicles nor pack animals.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 23:12, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
• Please see my above comment about the second sentence. Nick-D (talk) 06:06, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Para should begin with the day of the Italian invasion ("e.g. "On XX XX 1940, the Italians invaded....). I don't see why we shouldn't mention Cyril Falls as well as Mazower, thus I think the second sentence should be "The repulse of the Italian invasion and the Greek counter-offensive in 1940 been called the first Allied land victory of World War II by historians such as Cyril Falls and Peter Ewer and helped to raise morale in Allied Europe." or something like that. There should also be mention of the high Greek morale and belief in a just cause. In general the issue here is that everything is framed in terms of Italy ("the first axis setback" instead of the first "allied victory", that the Italians faced difficult conditions (so did the Greeks though), that they were surprised by the Greek resistance, etc...). Athenean (talk) 06:31, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

I took out Falls for brevity and Ewer because he was questioned as a source, then edited the details to Mazower specifically so I could use quote marks. My edit is suggestive and the other bits could go back if preferred but I think it's enough as long as the article section is comprehensive and cites at least two of the three. I'd go for Falls and Mazower since they have written books (possibily Ewer in a footnote?).

Ewer can go per Nick-D. However, what happened to the sentence on the effect of the war in Italy? Athenean (talk) 03:29, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Is that better?Keith-264 (talk) 08:42, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

"The defeats against the British". In Egypt and Libya I assume? The way it's written now it makes it seem that the defeats against the British took place in Greece. Athenean (talk) 17:49, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

The Greeks counter-attacked, pushed the Italians back over the Albanian frontier, then occupied southern Albania.. I wonder if there is a good reason for 3and1/2 months of war operations, i.e. the article's core, to be represented in 1 line. For obvious reasons the battle of Elaia Kalamas and Pindus should be part of this paragraph. Same with the fall of the Morava Ivan heights as well as the end of the offensive with the capture of the Klisura pass.Alexikoua (talk) 14:59, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Since the lead is a summary, the less detail the better but that always leaves the feeling that something important has been omitted. If anything can be summarised in one line rather than two, all the better, it means that the right words have been chosen. Since it's a synoptic article, I suggest that the big detail needs to go in the sub-articles and this one needs more detail on context, strategy, diplomacy, economics and consequences, touched upon in the lead. How does it look now? Regards Keith-264 (talk) 17:56, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Alexikoua is on to something. We have all this stuff about Ethiopia, the Spanish civil war, and Romanian oil fields, and only one sentence about the war itself. I agree there is too much detail (Ethiopia, Spanish civil war, Romanian oil fields, British RAf squadrons that never came), but the one area there isn't sufficient detail is the actual war. We can easily make room for some more detail on the war by removing the other excess detail. Athenean (talk) 03:56, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

I've stripped some of the detail but if we add too many facts about the Greek side, we risk unbalancing the article the other way by losing context. What would you put in?Keith-264 (talk) 12:41, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

'The Italian attack was repulsed in the Pindus and Elaia-Kalamas sectors. The following Greek counter offensive launched at November 14, secured a strong bridgehead in southern Albania and culminated with the capture of the strategically important Klisura pass at January 10, 1941.' I believe that's the shortest version posibble for almost 3 months of core events.Alexikoua (talk) 15:15, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

That takes us back to description rather than a simple win-lose comment; if we put that in we can't oppose more context and more Italians, British and Germans. It also leaves out the fact that the Greek success wasn't decisive and that the war effort began a deterioration in the Greek economy which could have been decisive if the outsiders hadn't intervened. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 15:31, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

I wont object some rewording but the conflicts that concern 3 months of core events should be part of a 4 para lead: 'this war started with battles X and Y, then the other side counterattacked and this offensive ended with battle Z.' I admit it will be too weird to mention a lot of background events that occurred in Ethiopia, Lybia, Romania etc., but not a single line about the core battles of this war.Alexikoua (talk) 06:53, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

4th para, how it all ended

From 4 March – 2 April 1941, British ground forces were sent to Greece and the Italian disaster led the Germans to invade Greece on 6 April. During the Battle of Greece, Greek–British forces on the Bulgarian border were defeated and in Albania, the Greek army made a belated withdrawal, followed up slowly by the Italians, was cut off and surrendered to German troops (then to Italy for propaganda, days later). The Italian army suffered 154,172 casualties from all causes and the Greek army about 90,000 losses in the Greco-Italian War and after the Battle of Greece, the Axis partitioned Greece, which was occupied by Bulgarian, German and Italian troops. The failure of the Italian "Parallel War" against Greece (and the British in Africa), reduced Italy and the fascist regime to dependence on Germany.

Comments

• This is a mixture of information on this article, and the Battle of Greece article (i.e. disclaimer, I have probably just overly simplified why the Germans attacked). It is short and sweet, and provides an actual conclusion to the Italo-Greek conflict while noting the long term ramifications: occupation and the political consequence for Italy. An additional disclaimer, I note that this article provides the end date of the conflict not as the date the fighting merged with the German invasion, but with the date the Greeks surrendered.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 23:17, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

I thought it was a fairly good compromise but a little wordy so I have put it through the laconic-iser. I added 140,000 because it's in Mazower, a pretty good source but as you point out, we lack some basic information about both armies and the economic effects of the inconclusive nature of the war. Mentioning the Germans and British as interveners is good but also adds to the amount of detail to explain why (oil and Barbarossa). Keith-264 (talk) 08:04, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

When did the British send in their contingent? It should be mentioned. I also think there is way too much detail about oil and Barbarossa and such. Also as far as I know, the Greek surrender to the Italians was solely due to the sheer insistence of Mussolini. The Germans were initially reluctant to allow this so as to not embarass the Greeks, but eventually relented so as to not alienate Mussolini. I also think it should be "greatly diminished Italy's status and reduced it to...". Otherwise looks good. Athenean (talk) 06:37, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Something like this?Keith-264 (talk) 09:40, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Still think there is way too much detail here. Also please see my point here [19]. Athenean (talk) 03:31, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

I fear we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. Either we ignore the Second World War that came to Greece in 1941 or have to put something in for context - why the British and Germans were interested in the Balkans. Are my amendments any better?Keith-264 (talk) 08:42, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Context is fine, but we are talking about the lede here. Operation Lustre and the stuff about the Romanian oil fields is fine for the body of the article, but it's too much detail for the lede. I think this paragraph should just begin with "On 6 April 1941, the Germans launched Operation Marita...". Athenean (talk) 17:46, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

If we're going to mention the British and Germans at all, we have to add the reason for them interfering. If we start with the date, the B of G will look like it came out of nowhere, like an exploding cigar.Keith-264 (talk) 17:50, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Operation Marita can be very easily introduced in a number of ways: "To avoid a total debacle in the Balkans, the Germans...", "As a result of the Italian failure, the Germans...". The Romanian oilfields are really overkill for the lede. Athenean (talk) 03:56, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

How now?Keith-264 (talk) 12:41, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

There is sn issue with the 'British forces on the Bulgarian front'. In fact there was not a single British unit located there, even in the entire region of eastern - central Macedonia and Thrace. The closest British units were located some hundreds kms southwest and they didnt take part in the border conflicts of the Metaxas line. I assume some rewording is needed.Alexikoua (talk) 07:55, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Declaration of war

Mussolini joined the Axis by declaring war on France and the British Empire on 10 June 1940. To use the term "the Allies" is misleading as there were no other countries in the war at that stage. (165.120.184.91 (talk) 15:18, 3 August 2016 (UTC))

Thank you for taking your concern to the talkpage.

The Anglo-French alliance was known as "the Allies". Not to mention, the British Commonwealth independently joined the war, so New Zealand, Australia, and Canada were all independent partners. Furthermore, exiled Governments and forces (I.e. the Poles, Belgians, Dutch, Danes, and Norwegians) were all part of the alliance.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 15:25, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Italy only declared war on France and the British Empire, not the governments in exile. You can see the video of Mussolini declaring war on youtube. (165.120.184.91 (talk) 15:32, 3 August 2016 (UTC))

Edit conflict: Allies of World War II There was never any peace treaty with Poland so it never ended its war with Germany. All the others had governments in exile as well and continued their belligerency. This is a matter of fact not opinion.Keith-264 (talk) 15:40, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Poland, Czechoslovakia, Norway, Denmark etc were all defeated and overrun. Only the British Empire was still in the war by 10 June 1940. (165.120.184.91 (talk) 15:46, 3 August 2016 (UTC))

I am afraid Keith is right on this. Please stick to the facts. Wikipedia is not a personal blogspot, the people need to stick to the facts and not try change how the events are portrayed in Wikipedia based on their personal points of view. It is striking how there is, lately, a growing tendency to have historical facts overshadowed by personal perceptions on past events. -- SILENTRESIDENT 15:54, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

The only countries that actually mattered in June 1940 were the UK and Canada. (165.120.184.91 (talk) 15:56, 3 August 2016 (UTC))

Your opinon. Which is completely irrelevant. Parsecboy (talk) 18:28, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

This is true. All the other countries including France had been overrun. Mussolini only entered the war because France was already defeated. If the UK had been invaded the Royal Navy was to continue the war from Canada. (165.120.184.252 (talk) 12:11, 4 August 2016 (UTC))

Analysis additions

Taking into account some of the above discussions about how the analysis section should be presented, a couple of paragraphs which deal with the Greek morale and the importance of the Greek resistance will be fine additions:

Anti-Italian feeling among the Greek public was reinforced after the sinking of "Elli", on August 15, 1940, while Greek optimism that the Italian attack will fail was evident from the first moments of the war. Thus, from the very first hours the war became known a strong national feeling was quite evident "to teach a lesson to the macaroni-boys", as the Italians were pejoratively called.

Various factors have contributed to the high morale of the Greek side and the subsequent repulsion of the Italian attacks: the strong feeling of justice, the specialized and well trained military personnel of the Greek army and its leadership, as well as the devotion of the civilian population who lived next to the battlefields, including women and children, to the Greek cause. Public opinion in Greece still accepts that the failure of the numerical superior Italian army came as a result of its unjustified action against Greece.

After the Italian troops were successfully driven from Greek soil Greek morale was further strengthened. The bravery and the high moral of the Greek units was also acknowledged by the Italian leadership. The Greek successes against Italy helped raise morale in Allied Europe and showed that the Axis was not invincible. Inspired by these military developments, British Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, declared that "today we say that Greeks fight like heroes, from now on we will say that heroes fight like Greeks".

Although the advance of the Greek army stalled at January 1941, due to harsh winter conditions and the Italian reinforcements, Greece had managed to secure a strong bridgehead in southern Albania. Thus, it didn't only provide a humiliation to Musolini but also occupied an area inhabited by a substantial ethnic Greek population.

• Tsirpanlis, Zacharias N. (1992). "The Morale of the Greek and the Italian Soldier in the 1940-41 War". Balkan Studies. 33 (1): 111–141. Retrieved 3 August 2016.

Dear Alexikoua, this looks good for me. No problem from my part. -- SILENTRESIDENT 22:07, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

I think something about the importance of high Greek morale will help with balance but I'd like more on the quality of Greek training and due caution on Soddu's writing, since it's a primary source. Comments about biological superiority are ones that I wouldn't mention for obvious reasons. Churchill is a primary source too but a speech at the time reported as a speech seems more reliable. Keith-264 (talk) 08:30, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by comments about "biological superiority". Where do you see that? Athenean (talk) 02:34, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Tsirpanlis by saying that "the biological superiority of mountain or rural population (especially people from Epirus, Roumeli, Macedonia, Thessaly" was one of the factors that raised Greek morale, obviously means that the Greek soldiers coming from the mountain&rural regions of north-central Greece were accustomed to the mountainous environment of the battlefront and its correspondent weather conditions.Alexikoua (talk) 08:49, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes but it's unfortunately-worded given the history of European racism. Keith-264 (talk) 12:22, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, this needs to be re-worded. -- SILENTRESIDENT 23:41, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Ok I see now. The source uses "biological superiority", but "biological superiority" does not appear in the proposed additions. There is of course no question that "biological superiority" should NOT be included in the additions to the article. That said, I think most of these proposed additions should be in the "Home Front" section rather than the Analysis section. In the analysis section we should also mention that 28 October, the day Metaxas rejected the Italian ultimatum is a national holiday in Greece known as "The day of 'No'" ("Oxi day"). Athenean (talk) 06:44, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Right then, all in favor or adding the above material? Athenean (talk) 03:09, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Mazower

(for the analysis section) In 2009, Mazower wrote that the Italian invasion of Greece was a disaster and the "first Axis setback" of the war. Mussolini sent 140,000 poorly-equipped troops to attack, over some of the worst mountain country in Europe, at the beginning of winter. The Greeks repulsed the invasion, to the surprise of enemies and Allies alike, an event made worse by the Italian disasters in Libya, Eritrea and Ethiopia. After the German invasion of Greece, Italy gained a small empire in the Balkans, mainly to relieve Germany of the need to find garrisons and had to tolerate a collaborationist government in Athens.Keith-264 (talk) 13:57, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

References

Put the cut version with Mazower into the Analysis as it appears acceptable to all but it's still missing an adequate treatment of the the Greek side. Happy to change it if needed.Keith-264 (talk) 21:09, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Think you guys are doing an excellent job at sorting out the bottom of the article. One observation: everything may have went to shit for the Italians, but at least the rank and file apparently kept a brave face about it: the reference to heroism via Jowett. I only mention this as last year if was one of the major complaints by our old friend last year. Can we work something back in?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 01:01, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Had a look in British Foreign Policy in the Second World War Volume I, Sir Llewellyn Woodward (1970) but it didn't add much detail.Keith-264 (talk) 08:31, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Well we should also mention that the defeat in Greece greatly reduced Italian standing and made them a satellite of Germany. Otherwise looks good. Athenean (talk) 06:45, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

 DoneKeith-264 (talk) 09:43, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Pardon me, I am not a native english speaker, but I think there is a small typo issue as well - I got the impression the word "numerical superior" needs to be changed into "numerically superior". Otherwise it looks good and balanced. -- SILENTRESIDENT 02:50, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Missing material

It has just come to my realization that a lot of well-sourced material that used to be in the article is now missing. See here for example [20]. All the material in the diff has been removed, even though it is well sourced and relevant. I move it be reintroduced in some form. Athenean (talk) 03:09, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Is that my recent copy-edit? Since there is an article on the Primavera Offensive, we don't need to duplicate it here, just have a 1–2 paragraph summary and a link to

Main article: Italian Spring Offensive

where the detail can go. Keith-264 (talk) 08:13, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

No I'm talking about the whole Greek surrender to the Italians affair, long after the Primavera Offensive. I think that's highly relevant to the article. Athenean (talk) 17:42, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Revised lead redux

Opening para

The Greco-Italian War (Italo-Greek War, Italian Campaign in Greece; in Greece: War of '40 and Epic of '40), took place between the Kingdoms of Italy and Greece from 28 October 1940 to 23 April 1941. This local war began the Balkans Campaign of World War II between the Axis powers and the Allies. It turned into the Battle of Greece when British and German ground forces intervened early in 1941.

Everything looks good here, except I would change "Greek" to "in Greece". Athenean (talk) 04:28, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Tried escalated to for turned into. RegardsKeith-264 (talk) 11:46, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Everything looks good here, we are good to go on this one. Athenean (talk) 05:31, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Nope, I stronly object to the total absence of the keywords Axis and Allies from the first and/or the second paragraphs of the lede. These keywords are very important to be present in at least one of the two paragraphs, (besides the keyword World War II which is already present but not enough by itself), and therefore, this needs to be fixed. Because the Greek-Italian war was not unimportant to the rest of the Axis powers and Allied powers, but one of their battle fronts. @Keith-264: and @Athenean:, please can we have the keyword Axis and the keyword Allies (or Allied) added at least once in this paragraph (or in the second one below) otherwise it will give the false impression that this war is not part of the fights between Axis and Allies, or imply that Greece was not an Allied power? Thank you -- SILENTRESIDENT 05:03, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Ah yes, good point, I hadn't realized that. I'm sure it will be possible to accommodate that. Athenean (talk) 05:09, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Me neither, how now?Keith-264 (talk) 06:36, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Second sentence is run-on, I split it in two. Athenean (talk) 06:40, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Agree @Keith-264: and @Athenean:, now that the Allies and Axis are added, it is perfect and covers anything. Thank you very much. -- SILENTRESIDENT 09:18, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

2nd Para, background

In the mid-1930s, the Italian Prime Minister Benito Mussolini began an aggressive foreign policy and annexed Albania in the spring of 1939. World War II began on 3 September 1939 and on 10 June 1940, Italy declared war on the Allies, invaded France, British Somaliland and Egypt by September and prepared to occupy Greece. In the late 1930s the Greeks had begun the Metaxas Line opposite Bulgaria and from 1939 had accelerated defensive preparations against an Italian attack from Albania. In 1940, there was a hostile press campaign in Italy and other provocations culminating in the sinking of the Greek light cruiser Elli by the Italians on 15 August, (the Christian Dormition of the Mother of God festival). On 28 October, Mussolini issued an ultimatum to Greece demanding the cession of Greek territory, which the Prime Minister of Greece, Ioannis Metaxas, rejected.

I believe Mussolini asked for the surrender of Greek territory, that should be mentioned. The 15th August is a major (the most significant after Easter) religious holiday. Also, it's an Orthodox holiday, not just a Greek one. Otherwise looks good. Athenean (talk) 04:29, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Sorry for nitpicking, but I have the following observations on second thought: 1) Mussolini not only occupied but also annexed Albania. 2) "World War II began on 3 September 1939", 3) Metaxas line was the Greek-Bulgarian border, not the Greek-Albanian border, I don't think it's that relevant here, 4) "In 1940, a hostile press campaign in Italy and a series of provocations culminated in the sinking..", 5) the "Greek Prime Minister", instead of just Prime Minister, and 6) Metaxas did not actually use the word "Ohi", he actually replied, "then, it's war". So I propose: On 28 October, Mussolini issued an ultimatum to Greece demanding the cession of Greek territory, which the Greek Prime Minister, Ioannis Metaxas, rejected. Athenean (talk) 05:41, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

3rd para, the meat and potatoes

The Italian army invaded Greece on 28 October before the Italian ultimatum expired. The 140,000 troops of the Italian Army in Albania were poorly equipped, had to cope with the mountainous terrain on the Albanian–Greek border and tenacious resistance by the Greek Army, which stopped the invasion just inside Greece. The Greek army counter-attacked, pushed the Italians back into Albania and occupied the south of the country. The Italian defeat and the Greek counter-offensive of 1940 have been called the first "first Axis setback of the entire war" by Mark Mazower, the Greeks "surprising everyone with the tenacity of their resistance". The war continued and in December, to avoid provoking Germany, Metaxas rejected British troops to join the Royal Air force (RAF) squadrons already in Greece. After reinforcing the Albanian front to 28 divisions, the Italians conducted a spring offensive in 1941, which also failed. By February, despite the second Italian failure, the 14 Greek divisions in Albania were under great strain and had run short of artillery ammunition. The Greek economy began to falter due to reduced imports of imports and food shortages. The economic and military failings of the Italian Fascist regime were exposed by the Greek débâcle and defeats against the British in Africa.

I believe the Italians invaded right on 28 October, within hours of Metaxas rejecting the ultimatum . That should be mentioned. Athenean (talk) 04:29, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

I wont object some rewording but the conflicts that concern 3 months of core events should be part of a 4 para lead: 'this war started with battles X and Y, then the other side counterattacked and this offensive ended with battle Z.' I admit it will be too weird to mention a lot of background events that occurred in Ethiopia, Lybia, Romania etc., but not a single line about the core battles of this war.Alexikoua (talk) 06:53, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

If you want to put detail like this in the lead, I will want to put the German and British strategic concerns back in too. Do the RS agree on what the significant battles were? Keith-264 (talk) 06:59, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Actually here's a version of the 3rd paragraph that I propose:

3rd para, the meat and potatoes - Athenean's version

The Italian army invaded Greece on 28 October before the Italian ultimatum expired. The invasion began disastrously, the 140,000 troops of the Italian Army in Albania being poorly led and equipped, and having to cope with the mountainous terrain on the Albanian–Greek border and tenacious resistance by the Greek Army. By mid-November the Greek army had stopped the Italian invasion just inside Greek territory, and counter-attacked, pushing the Italians back into Albania, culminating with the Capture of Klisura Pass in January 1941. The Italian defeat and the Greek counter-offensive of 1940 have been called the first "first Axis setback of the entire war" by Mark Mazower, the Greeks "surprising everyone with the tenacity of their resistance". After reinforcing the Albanian front to 28 divisions, the Italians conducted a spring offensive in 1941, which also failed and by February there was a stalemate.

I've added some military details, and I think Metaxas' refusal of the RAF squadrons is not lede-worthy (although it is certainly article-worthy). Also, the stuff about the debacle exposing the failings of the fascist regime does not belong in this paragraph and is somewhat redundant with what is in the 4th paragraph. This paragraph should end with the stalemate in the Albanian front. Athenean (talk) 05:30, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

4th para, ending

In the spring of 1941, the failure of the Italian counter-offensive and the arrival of British ground forces in Greece led the Germans to invade Greece on 6 April. During the Battle of Greece, Greek–British forces on the Bulgarian border were defeated. In Albania, the Greek army made a belated withdrawal and was followed up slowly by the Italians. After being cut off, the Greeks surrendered to German troops (and then to Italy for propaganda reasons several days later). The Italian army suffered 154,172 casualties from all causes and the Greek army about 90,000 losses before the Battle of Greece, after which Greece was occupied by Bulgarian, German and Italian troops. The failure of the "Parallel War" against Greece and Britain reduced the Italian fascist regime to dependence on Germany.

What's "casualties" and "losses"? Dead and wounded? If so let's use that instead. Athenean (talk) 04:34, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Used synonyms to avoid repetition; in the infobox they are called total losses because they include hospital cases for frostbite etc. I used the global figure for brevity. Any better? Regards Keith-264 (talk) 11:43, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Redid lead proposal as the thread was getting a bit long. Keith-264 (talk) 12:48, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Another try. Keith-264 (talk) 12:53, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

See below for my proposal for the 4th para:

4th para, ending

In the spring of 1941, the failure of the Italian counter-offensive and the arrival of British ground forces in Greece led the Germans to invade on 6 April. During the Battle of Greece, Greek and British forces on the Bulgarian border were overwhelmed and the Germans advanced rapidly into Greece. In Albania, the Greek army made a belated withdrawal to avoid being cut off by the Germans, was followed up slowly by the Italians and surrendered to German troops on 20 April 1941 (then to Italy for propaganda reasons several days later). Greece was occupied by Bulgarian, German and Italian troops. The Italian army suffered 154,172 casualties from all causes and the Greek army about 90,000 losses. The economic and military failings of the Italian Fascist regime were exposed by the Greek débâcle and defeats against the British in Africa, which reduced the Italian fascist regime to dependence on Germany.

Owzat? Keith-264 (talk) 08:47, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Looks great. We are very close now. Only one thing: Why did you remove the sentence explaining the reasons for the stalemate? It's not a must for me, but am curious. Athenean (talk) 05:01, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

I thought about the difference between general and particular. Stalemate is a general term so adding the details seems to only echo what it means. How about we add the three battles you mentioned to something like the battles of A, B and C led to a stalemate until an Italian spring offensive....? Keith-264 (talk) 06:36, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

I think it's fine the way it is actually. I was just curious. Athenean (talk) 06:39, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Excellent!Keith-264 (talk) 08:00, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

There is sn issue with the 'British forces on the Bulgarian front'. In fact there was not a single British unit located there, even in the entire region of eastern - central Macedonia and Thrace. The closest British unit was located several kms southwest and it didnt took part in the border conflicts of the Metaxas line. I assume some rewording is needed.Alexikoua (talk) 07:55, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

I took it that a difference between frontier and front was enough. Would Thrace &/or Macedonia be better? Keith-264 (talk) 08:07, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Good question that, Keith-264. Although I am unsure what is best. -- SILENTRESIDENT 18:04, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Macedoniaor Northern Greece is both fine.Alexikoua (talk) 05:15, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Just popping in real fast to say the ongoing discussion to iron out the remaining details looks good. Looks like we are nearly there. Well done everyone! :) EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 23:16, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Draft lead

The Greco-Italian War (Italo-Greek War, Italian Campaign in Greece; in Greece: War of '40 and Epic of '40), took place between the Kingdoms of Italy and Greece from 28 October 1940 to 23 April 1941. This local war began the Balkans Campaign of World War II between the Axis powers and the Allies. It turned into the Battle of Greece when British and German ground forces intervened early in 1941.

In the mid-1930s, the Italian Prime Minister Benito Mussolini began an aggressive foreign policy and annexed Albania in the spring of 1939. World War II began on 3 September 1939 and on 10 June 1940, Italy declared war on the Allies, invaded France, British Somaliland and Egypt by September and prepared to occupy Greece. In the late 1930s the Greeks had begun the Metaxas Line opposite Bulgaria and from 1939 had accelerated defensive preparations against an Italian attack from Albania. In 1940, there was a hostile press campaign in Italy and other provocations culminating in the sinking of the Greek light cruiser Elli by the Italians on 15 August, (the Christian Dormition of the Mother of God festival). On 28 October, Mussolini issued an ultimatum to Greece demanding the cession of Greek territory, which the Prime Minister of Greece, Ioannis Metaxas, rejected.

The Italian army invaded Greece on 28 October before the Italian ultimatum expired. The 140,000 troops of the Italian Army in Albania were poorly equipped, had to cope with the mountainous terrain on the Albanian–Greek border and tenacious resistance by the Greek Army, which stopped the invasion just inside Greece. The Greek army counter-attacked, pushed the Italians back into Albania and occupied the south of the country. The Italian defeat and the Greek counter-offensive of 1940 have been called the first "first Axis setback of the entire war" by Mark Mazower, the Greeks "surprising everyone with the tenacity of their resistance". The war continued and in December, to avoid provoking Germany, Metaxas rejected a British offer of troops to join the Royal Air force (RAF) already in Greece. After reinforcing the Albanian front to 28 divisions, the Italians conducted a spring offensive in 1941, which also failed. By February, despite the second Italian failure, the 14 Greek divisions in Albania were under great strain and had run short of artillery ammunition. The Greek economy began to falter due to reduced imports of imports and food shortages and the economic and military failings of the Italian Fascist regime were exposed by the Greek débâcle and defeats against the British in Africa.

In the spring of 1941, the failure of the Italian counter-offensive and the arrival of British ground forces in Greece led the Germans to invade on 6 April. During the Battle of Greece, Greek troops on the Bulgarian border and British troops in Macedonia were overwhelmed and the Germans advanced rapidly into Greece. In Albania, the Greek army made a belated withdrawal to avoid being cut off by the Germans, was followed up slowly by the Italians and surrendered to German troops on 20 April 1941 (then to Italy for propaganda reasons several days later). Greece was occupied by Bulgarian, German and Italian troops. The Italian army suffered 154,172 casualties from all causes and the Greek army about 90,000 losses. The economic and military failings of the Italian Fascist regime were exposed by the Greek débâcle and defeats against the British in Africa, which reduced the Italian fascist regime to dependence on Germany.

OK?Keith-264 (talk) 10:48, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Just one thing, from where the surrender for propaganda came, because I was unable to find it. Actually, all the surrender of the greeks seems to be removed from the article. Uspzor (talk) 15:51, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

@Keith: That looks like an older version of the proposed lede with respect to the 3rd paragraph. See below for what I believe we had agreed on.
@Uspzor: There used to be a large section [21] on "surrender for propaganda" stuff that was removed under unclear circumstances. Don't worry though, I will work to reinstate it after we are done with the lede. Athenean (talk) 16:14, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

The Greco-Italian War (Italo-Greek War, Italian Campaign in Greece; in Greece: War of '40 and Epic of '40), took place between the Kingdoms of Italy and Greece from 28 October 1940 to 23 April 1941. This local war began the Balkans Campaign of World War II between the Axis powers and the Allies. It turned into the Battle of Greece when British and German ground forces intervened early in 1941.

In the mid-1930s, the Italian Prime Minister Benito Mussolini began an aggressive foreign policy and annexed Albania in the spring of 1939. World War II began on 3 September 1939 and on 10 June 1940, Italy declared war on the Allies, invaded France, British Somaliland and Egypt by September and prepared to occupy Greece. In the late 1930s the Greeks had begun the Metaxas Line opposite Bulgaria and from 1939 had accelerated defensive preparations against an Italian attack from Albania. In 1940, there was a hostile press campaign in Italy and other provocations culminating in the sinking of the Greek light cruiser Elli by the Italians on 15 August, (the Christian Dormition of the Mother of God festival). On 28 October, Mussolini issued an ultimatum to Greece demanding the cession of Greek territory, which the Prime Minister of Greece, Ioannis Metaxas, rejected.

The Italian army invaded Greece on 28 October before the Italian ultimatum expired. The invasion began disastrously, the 140,000 troops of the Italian Army in Albania being poorly led and equipped, and having to cope with the mountainous terrain on the Albanian–Greek border and tenacious resistance by the Greek Army. By mid-November the Greek army had stopped the Italian invasion just inside Greek territory, and counter-attacked, pushing the Italians back into Albania, culminating with the Capture of Klisura Pass in January 1941. The Italian defeat and the Greek counter-offensive of 1940 have been called the first "first Axis setback of the entire war" by Mark Mazower, the Greeks "surprising everyone with the tenacity of their resistance". After reinforcing the Albanian front to 28 divisions, the Italians conducted a spring offensive in 1941, which also failed and by February there was a stalemate.

In the spring of 1941, the failure of the Italian counter-offensive and the arrival of British ground forces in Greece led the Germans to invade on 6 April. During the Battle of Greece, Greek and British forces in northern Greece were overwhelmed and the Germans advanced rapidly into Greece. In Albania, the Greek army made a belated withdrawal to avoid being cut off by the Germans, was followed up slowly by the Italians and surrendered to German troops on 20 April 1941 (then to Italy for propaganda reasons several days later). Greece was occupied by Bulgarian, German and Italian troops. The Italian army suffered 154,172 casualties from all causes and the Greek army about 90,000 losses. The economic and military failings of the Italian Fascist regime were exposed by the Greek débâcle and defeats against the British in Africa, which reduced the Italian fascist regime to dependence on Germany.

Oh, it also looks the "raised morale in Allied Europe" bit is missing, too. Athenean (talk) 16:20, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

I couldn't remember which was the current paragraph so I guessed...oops. Keith-264 (talk) 16:44, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Right then, if there are no further objections, I will replace the current lede with the proposal above. Athenean (talk) 04:20, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes please.Keith-264 (talk) 07:51, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Pasted in the consensus lead without prejudice to more editing, due to not wanting this task to be affected by the sockistry below. RegardsKeith-264 (talk) 15:58, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Please tone down the rhetoric and let's get back to real history!

Sock comments and replies collapsed. Dr. K. 17:05, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Really, this article is going from bad to worse. Something drastic needs to be done an done soon I'm afraid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.52.104.189 (talk) 11:58, 16 August 2016 (UTC) Comment made by suspected block-evading IP sock of indeffed master AnnalesSchool How about provide actual examples, so you can be taken seriously and so a productive discussion can be add? You have removed a lot of material and claimed you would discus it, yet all you have offered up is an opinion with no substance.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 15:16, 17 August 2016 (UTC) It's our old friend AnnalesSchool I'm afraid. Athenean (talk) 16:31, 17 August 2016 (UTC) I tagged the sock. As a general rule, the sock comments should be reverted instead of replied to. Dr. K. 17:01, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Too much partisanship in this article.

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 14:32, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

"from the very first hours of the war a strong national feeling was quite evident "to teach a lesson to the macaroni-boys" (Greek: Μακαρονάδες, "Makaronades"), as the Italians were pejoratively called" SHOULD BE deleted or at the very least, the term, "macaroni boys" deleted.

Reference should be made in the Analysis section in one statement that the Greek Army surrendered to the Italians at a certain place and a certain time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.52.87.226 (talk) 14:38, 19 August 2016 (UTC) Comment made by suspected block-evading IP sock of indeffed master AnnalesSchool

In regards to the "macaroni" reference, and the comment earlier that it is against policy: the wiki is not censored in regards to language. Furthermore, it is in a quote. We (students of history) do not edit quotes (unless noted and to increase clarity).

However, that area does need improving. It is clearly an attempt to reinforce the previous sentence in regards to Greek morale. Yet the quote is not attributed in the text to any particular author or paper, and it is not as clear as it could be. The other two mentions are much clearer on this issue although they are buried in the footnotes.

So, in an effort to clear this issue up, does anyone with access to those sources? Can you rework the information so it does not appear as a random slur, and it is more clear in its intention? RegardsEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 15:20, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Is this passage in the article? I thought it was only in the talk page. Keith-264 (talk) 15:55, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

This is an obvious sock of AnnalesSchool (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). I don't think it helps to engage this WP:LTA sockmaster and his IP socks. Dr. K. 15:29, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

While that may be, it is still an area of the article that needs to be improved at some point otherwise it will be held up at review until done so.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:44, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

I naturally agree on this obvious point but we should also realise that we should not need to periodically consult the LTA socks to guide us to improve the article or start a conversation with them to help us fix it. Dr. K. 22:27, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

I left a message for Cannoli.Keith-264 (talk) 15:55, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Removal of objectionable material

I would really urge Wiki editors to please remove the derogatory quotation describing the gallant Italians who fought well and hard in the campaign as "macaroni boys" in the Analysis Section. It is both unnecessary and defamatory whether or not it is a quote from a "respectable author". "Respectful authors" are a dime a dozen these days anyway. The remark does nothing to add to the Analysis at all.

Furthermore, while it is good to see that the article does not endorse the erroneous view that the campaign was a Greek victory when in fact, the Italian Army ended up occupying two thirds of the country, it is important to add a reference concerning the Greek surrender and surrender terms of the Italians. I think this is important so that the reader is left in no uncertain terms about the Campaign's final outcome.

And why am I being accused of being a sock when I am not? Who was this AnnalesSchool anyway?