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AFC sidebar link

Hello, everyone:

I made a small script that adds a link to a random AFC submission in the sidebar navigation pane. If you want to add it, it's at User:ProgrammingGeek/afc-sidebar.js.

ProgrammingGeek ^talktome 17:17, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

@ProgrammingGeek: Thank you so much for posting this! I always have issues finding the 'find a random AFC submission' button (I was actually looking for it when I came across this). Thanks again! Made my day and saved me a lot of time :D --TheSandDoctor (talk) 23:01, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

EDIT: @ProgrammingGeek: Umm....how do I install it? LOL --TheSandDoctor (talk) 23:16, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

@TheSandDoctor: good point.

I've also made some scripts for easy access to Template:AFC statistics and other links. More at User:KGirlTrucker81/AFCStatisticsLink and User:KGirlTrucker81/AFCCATULink. KGirlTrucker81 ^{huh? what I've been doing} 17:36, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Installation Instructions

1. Navigate to your common.js page, found here

1. Click 'Edit source' (or create the page if it doesn't exist) and copy-paste the following line into the bottom:
   importScript('User:ProgrammingGeek/afc-sidebar.js');

1. Reload the page. Script installed!

A new project needs you

Please read Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship#Poll candidate search needs your participation.

Please join and participate.

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:01, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Non-free image use in AfC submission

I was wondering if AfC reviewers check, among other things, the images being used in drafts and userspace drafts they review. I've come across quite a number of declined AfC submissions which contain non-free images, which is something not allowed per WP:NFCC#9. Pretty much any non-free image being used in the draft namespace or the user namespace can be assumed to be in violation of WP:NFCCP, and is subject to removal. Of course, this can be done by those checking on non-free image use, but an AfC reviewer can also do it. Some editors upload images files for their drafts when it would actually be better for them to wait unitl after the draft has been moved to the aritcle mainspace because of WP:F5. Maybe information about this could be added to WP:AFCR so that reviewers are aware of the issue? -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:53, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

@Marchjuly: that's a really good point you raised. I personally don't check much for non free images here. Actually, tbh, i never thought about it much especially since it's not mentioned at the reviewing instructions. I agree that this should be a mandatory check and should be added to the rules. Yashovardhan (talk) 11:02, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Some do, some don't. A lot of the reviewers who are also on IRC mention it when users come into ask for help on their drafts. It's a good thing to keep an eye out for (as well as text copyright violations), so the notice here is appreciated! Primefac (talk) 11:57, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

"Check for non-free images" could easily be added to the reviewing instructions/workflow as part of the copyvio check stage. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 19:27, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Agreed with Roger. Now only if we could actually get some AFC reviewers to do a text copyvio search.... Primefac (talk) 19:55, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

All hands on deck! Opportunity to clear out the oldest pending reviews

As I write this the 18, 19 and 20 days categories are empty. This gives us a "buffer" of at least 48 hours that we can concentrate on clearing out the 3 weeks, 4 weeks and very old categories. Doing so will put the AFC project back onto a "normal" timeline. Please help get this done. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 17:16, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Y sounds good! ProgrammingGeek ^talktome 17:27, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

As a number-crunching thing, if each semi-active reviewer reviews one page in the 3/4 week category per day, we'll clear out both cats by the time 17 turns into 3wk. Primefac (talk) 17:33, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

3 weeks ago submissions 4 weeks ago submissions Very old submissions (clear!)

ProgrammingGeek ^talktome 18:24, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks ProgrammingGeek those go to my bookmarks. Already working on those... Yashovardhan (talk) 18:26, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I can see why these build up. I've spent a fair amount of time on two: 1) moving a logo from commons to here and labeling it fair use, and 2) time spent understanding the topic, removing original research, finding sources, and rewriting to make it survivable. StarryGrandma (talk) 01:32, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Stop posting discussion on AFC draft pages, use the discussion page instead

I propose that the posting of discussion comments, including review comments and results, on the actual draft page, shall stop, in favour of using the corresponding discussion page.

Looking at: Draft:Fig_Tree_Hall,_University_of_New_South_Wales, there is an actual discussion, but contrary to all Wikipedia norms, it is being held in reverse order, going upwards, on top of the article. It is unintuitive, and needlessly dissimilar to normal content discussion. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:48, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• Support if changes could be made to the AFCH to post comments, decline/approve messages etc. On the talk page. The problem starts when the author tries to reply back to the reviewer right there. It'll slightly increase the work as one would need to check the talk page as well (I prefer to check the previous comments). It also causes a nuisance when accepting heavily commented drafts as some discussion cannot be cleaned by the AFCH and one needs to remove it personally. It'll also encourage dialogue and eliminate the need of authors contacting reviewers at their talk page. Yashovardhan (talk) 14:24, 30 April 2017 (UTC) Changed to oppose below. Yashovardhan (talk) 18:44, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose This has been suggested and shot down many times in the past. While it's true that the comment threads can get a little convoluted, not all new editors know about the talk page. This sort of thing really doesn't happen that often, and it's not the end of the world to spend an extra three minutes (as I did with Fig Tree) cleaning it up. In hindsight, I probably should have threaded the actual conversation inside the {{AFC comment}}, which I might actually go do... Primefac (talk) 15:57, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) Oppose. With respect to discussions that take place on the draft, my opposition is based on the notion of "it ain't broke, don't fix it". As things stand, it is very easy to simply move a discussion to the draft's Talk page and then leave a comment/message on the draft alerting other reviewers to the existence/location of that discussion (it also helps to ping the draft's creator who often, believe it or not, will have trouble finding the Talk page). I do these moves rather frequently, so much so that I use a standard name for the Talk-page section header -- "Discussion during review at Articles for Creation". As for moving all reviewer comments, here too I don't see a problem that needs to be fixed. But the proposed change would also have negative consequences. When I see that a reviewer left a comment suggesting a need to do something, I routinely go to the page history and start walking through the revisions that took place after that comment was left. Doing so tells me precisely what the draft's creator did to address that comment. This is an easy thing to do when the comments are part of the draft's page history, but not so easy to do when the comments are being left on another page. NewYorkActuary (talk) 16:06, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Comments should remain where they currently are. If it gets to a point on any given draft that a lengthier discussion needs to be had, notify the creator and move it to the talk page. It makes it easier to see what past reviewers have said in one window rather than having to flip between two. I think for most drafts the comments don't generally extend past one sentence and maybe 4-5 reviewers at max. This proposal would make it more difficult 98% of the time and focuses too much on that minute percentage where comments can overtake the draft. CHRISSYMAD ❯❯❯¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 16:10, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose per arguments made above. Though I'd suggest letting the creator know how to add a comment as well. Maybe, the waiting for review box should display instructions of using the afc comment template but warning them gently to use it only sparingly. I'd rather have them fill my talk page than having to check two pages while reviewing. Yashovardhan (talk) 18:44, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose per all the above. Review comments (with very few exceptions) do not need to be part of the "permanent record" of the article talk page. Advising the originating author about the mechanics of referencing, for example, is not relevant discussion about the article as such, which is the express purpose of article talk pages. Most review commentary is meant to be ephemeral, it has no value or relevance after the article has been accepted into mainspace. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 19:23, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

You guys appear oblivious to being very much stuck in your rut.

• • User:Primefac. All useful threads become convoluted, and useless threads are not the measure of success. "Not all new editors know about the talk page"!? Arghhh. Ever heard of WP:ACTRIAL? The root of the problem with newcomers and junk creations drowning out the rare good things is their zero effort to learn something before creating the article. An editor who doesn't know about Wikipedia talk pages? Is there any realistic chance that such an editor will contribute usefully in any way? They desperately need to learn about talk pages, as soon as possible. It is not hard to learn about talk pages, every page has a talk page and the link is in the same place. Sure, reduce newcomer barriers, but knowledge of talk pages is both rudimentary and essential to being an editor.

> "threaded the actual conversation inside the {{AFC comment}}"
That template-enclosed conversation can be on the talk page, and transcluded to the top of the draft. The template can include an edit link, but it would be better to have instructions to go to the talk page to continue conversations.

• • User:NewYorkActuary, "it ain't broke, don't fix it" !?!? AfC is seriously broke, how can you not know. The newcomers don't get what is going on. AfC processes are not human-friendly, it is obvious and the consequences are obvious. It is why newcomers usually don't talk, and either keep butting their head against the wall or just leave never to return. The AfC stuff at the top of the page is not the place or way that any normal human would communicate two-way. It is the way a teacher marks and gives feedback to a student, but it is not the forum for discourse.
    The fact that you frequently move the discussions demonstrates that you understand that the natural place for the discussions is the talk page. Given that you notion is false, does this mean you agree? Not move old comments, but moving forward: make the comments, invite the correspondence about improving the page, on the talk page.

• • User:Dodger67, all useful comments on successful drafts need to be recorded. They form part of the attribution history. They can be archived if no longer relevant, which is a natural function of talk pages. Advising on the mechanics of referencing, if it is advising on improving the page, belongs on the talk page. Talk pages are for discussions about improving the page. If it is about improving the skills or knowledge of the editor, the comments go on the editors user_talk page. Discussions do not belong on article pages.

• • Editors here suggesting the checking of the talk page is too much work reflects the laziness of drive-by editors making junk creations. No wonder the broken system perpetuates. New editors should be {{welcome}}d. They should read the links in the welcome. They should discover how this place works, talk pages, project space policy pages, etc, and they should encounter people who represent Wikipedia. AfC reviewers working in a peculiar top-of-article, teacher-marking-style, should learn the more adult way to encourage learning. I have learned these things both from reviewing successful AfC works (the review comments deserve no credit the the success, failed AfC pages (endlessly repeated), and real life interactions with newcomers who encountered the broken AfC system, and just went away. Newcomers need to encounter humans, not web forms. The AfC templates make human reviewers appear to be webforms. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:54, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

SmokeyJoe, for someone who has never been an AFC reviewer and hasn't even edited ten drafts, you certainly seem to have a lot of complaints about the "broken" process. I see every day users with a draft come into IRC and have no idea what a talk page is - not how to get to the reviewer's talk, not to the draft talk, nowhere. Hell some of them don't even know the URL of their draft. For your information, I have heard of ACTRIAL, and I would love it if it were implemented. I would also like it if some pig-headed AFC reviewers decided to actually follow best practices and make less work for me and other diligent reviewers to clean up all the time. But if wishes were horses...

Sure, putting comments at the top of the draft isn't the most ideal way of doing it. Sure, I'd love to have fewer conversations on my talk page that are identical to the comments that I've already left on the draft. However, your last paragraph explains all of the issues, both with AFC and with Wikipedia as a whole. New editors don't read the links in welcome messages, nor do they attempt to find out how it works, nor do anything except create a promotional page for their business or their best friend who makes music or any of a hundred other one-shot topics.

Don't get me wrong, there are users who do good work via the draft process, and I can guarantee that if you checked any one of our "lazy AFC reviewer" talk pages you'd see users who asked good questions, who started meaningful discussion, and eventually kicked out great articles. Unfortunately, they are few and far between, but if we can't stop vandals from adding "poop" to random articles, we sure as hell can't stop drive-by paid editors from trying to add their crappy little mom-and-pop stores.

I'm sure you see the same thing as an NPR (and I certainly do as an admin), with the endless stream of A7's being recreated and eventually salted. How is that any different from a draft being worked on and resubmitted a half-dozen times until it's MFD'd? At worst they're the same situation, and at best AFC is better because it keeps that crappy page out of the mainspace.

Is AFC "broken"? No. Could it use some improvements? Sure, like any aspect of Wikipedia. Should we replace it with ACTRIAL? Abso-freaking-lutely. But I have major issues when someone on a high horse tries to tell us that what we're doing is fundamentally flawed (or in your words AfC is seriously broke, how can you not know?), and wave around promises of how much better it will be if we do things differently. At that point that person isn't much better than a politician on the campaign trail. I am more than happy to start a dialogue regarding AFC, but not when someone comes barging in telling us we have to change or else we're wrong. In fairness, this actually started off as a reasonable question which could have opened the door for that dialogue; I'm a little disappointed it didn't happen that way. Primefac (talk) 12:35, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

One little aspect of AfC that is a failure is its ability to engage newcomers in conversation. Templated reverse-order pedagogy at the top of the draft is the main problem there. Not expecting newcomers to learn about talk pages is associated with that. So easily fixed. Is this a fix-all? No. On everything else we are on the same page. I know that AfC failure (bigger picture) drives newcomers away, and I thing the flawed communications see us lose even the good ones. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:25, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Pedantism would be to use the talk page for no benefit. It will not engage newcomers, since newcomers will never see the talk page. If you want to engage the newcomers in discussions about the drafts they are writing, the comments should be going under the rejection notices, where they will see it, and not hidden away on the talk page, where they will never go to. Draft articles do not automatically become articles, and plenty of non-articlespace pages have discussions on the subject pages, most notably all the Village Pump pages, all the XfD pages. If the rationale for the rejection of an AfC submission is on the subject page, then the discussion would naturally occur there as well. All this commentary would be moved to the talk page when the draft is accepted as an article. If the draft is not accepted, there's one less page to delete when it stales-out. Drafts are not articles, we don't treat them as articles, so why treat it as an article in relation to discussion of rejections and non-acceptance concerns? It's not like it's indexed for all the world to see and read, since all DRAFT space pages are supposed to non-indexed and non-categorized. -- 70.51.200.162 (talk) 06:04, 10 May 2017 (UTC)