Talk:Reinhard Heydrich

Red Army purges and Wilhelm Canaris?

Under the subsection "Red Army purges" the author writes: "Sensing an opportunity to strike a blow at both the Soviet Army and Admiral Canaris of Germany's Abwehr, Heydrich decided that the Russian officers should be "unmasked", citing Max Williams' book. However, the Heinz Höhne's bio on Canaris and Peter Padfield's bio on Himmler both detail Heydrich's very close relationship with Canaris. If Williams has evidence to the contrary, it should be stated here, or else mention of Canaris and the Abwehr should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:252:D02:110:4DFB:37B1:69B:159D (talk) 02:57, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

If you have access to these books perhaps you could provide citations and if possible quotations from the source books that support your suggested edit? Your citations should at minimum contain the book title, author, publication date, and the page number(s) where the material is found. Thanks, — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 17:07, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

NSDAP number, SS number

The NSDAP membership number in particular is an important piece of information, because the lower the number, the earlier the person joined the party. Having a low membership number was a status symbol within the party. The Alter Kämpfer were considered as the hard-core supporters who were members during the initial period of struggle and before the party became popular or won any seats in the Reichstag. Having party number 544,916 meant Heydrich joined relatively late. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 14:54, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

As I said in my edit summary, it gives information to the reader as to when he joined the organizations and the timeline of events. In addition, the numbers carry significance within the Nazi Party as mentioned by Diannaa above. They should be included. Kierzek (talk) 15:12, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

While I have no doubt that's all true, normal readers have no way of knowing (a) that numbers were assigned sequentially, (b) what magnitude of number signaled early joining, or (c) that somehow others knew these numbers and were thereby awed – because the article doesn't say any of this. So I guess we could extend the article to explain, but still, what more would that tell the reader than would simply giving the dates themselves, perhaps explaining where they fit in the overall Nazi timeline. The fact that people can infer the date from the numbers, and be thereby subtly impressed, might be an interesting fact about daily life in the Nazi Party and German military, but it really tells us nothing about Heydrich.

On top of this, it now obtains that he had high numbers which did not confer status. Geesh! Drop the numbers, give the dates (there's only one right now, and for some reason it's in a footnote), and explain that these dates suggest he was not an early adherent but a later one, or whatever sources say. The numbers themselves are about as helpful as his home address – which might have been in a high-status area, but readers won't know that unless you tell them, in which case you may as well just name the area and explain the status, but drop the address itself. EEng 17:56, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

I did recently look in the source books for the date he joined the party, and found nothing. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 18:10, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Fine, but we can't leave the reader puzzling over these bare numbers. I understood they signaled something about time of his joining, but assumed the opposite of what turns out to be the truth -- I figured they signaled early joining. So you see how inappropriate they are as currently presented. EEng 18:14, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

First, I will check my RS books as to when he joined the Party, later when I am done with real world commitments of this day. Second, EEng, you are speculating and surmising, which I don't agree with. With that said, we could add a sentence as to the fact he was considered "not an early adherent", to use your words. Kierzek (talk) 19:20, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Peter Padfield's biography of Himmler states that Edouard Calic in his biography of Heydrich gives 31 May 1931 -- "the day after his discharge from the Navy became legally binding" -- as the date that Heydrich joined the Nazi Party. (p.110) The cite to Calic gives pp.58-59 as the source. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:54, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

I've adjusted the text accordingly. Since I don't have Calic, I've had to cite Padfield, but if anyone does have Calic, they should replace the cite to Padfield with a cite to Calic and remove Padfield from the bibliography. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:15, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, BMK for checking and tweaking, accordingly. I will still look when I get home, but right now I am chained to my desk at the office, so to speak. Kierzek (talk) 20:45, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

And thanks to you for cleaning up my typos. Fat fingers today. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:47, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

EEng, you are speculating and surmising – what are you talking about? EEng 22:47, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

EEng, if you really don't know, I am not wasting my time to comment further on it. As to the main queries, I checked Gerwarth first: on page 48 it states that Heydrich joined the Nazi Party on 1 June 1931, "...as a precondition for his new job". "His membership number, 544,916 did not exactly make him an 'Old Fighter' of the Nazi movement, but he joined early enough to avoid the suspicion of careerism with which post-1933 members" faced. On page 53, he states Heydrich joined the SS in "mid-July, 1931". Mario R. Dederichs's book "Heydrich: The Face of Evil" (2006) [2005], I checked second. He also states the same as Gerwarth, that Heydrich had to join the Nazi Party as a precondition for his new job. He joined on 1 June 1931; number 544916. p. 45. He go on to state that Heydrich then joined the SS in Hamburg on 14 July, as a Untersturmführer, number 10120. p. 48 (note: p. 12 also has this info as part of a short bio summary of ranks, dates and positions). So there you have it. Now, I am going to bed. Kierzek (talk) 04:08, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

I've again updated the text to present this information, which I think is useful to the non-specialist reader. Please look it over and make any changes necessary. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:43, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

• EEng, if you really don't know, I am not wasting my time to comment further on it{[snd}}that is, you'll only answer my question if I already know the answer. That's good logic, that is. I'm afraid I really must insist that you explain what speculating and surmising you're talking about.
• Thanks to BMK's fine editing, the article now reads

  On 30 May 1931, Heydrich's discharge from the navy became legally binding, and either the following day or on 1 June he joined the Nazi Party in Hamburg. Six weeks later, on 14 July, he joined the SS with the rank of Untersturmführer. His Party number was 544,916 and his SS number was 10,120. Those who joined the Party after Hitler's "seizure of power" in January 1933 faced suspicions from the "Old Fighters" of the Party that they had joined for reasons of career advancement, and not from a true commitment to the National Socialist program. Heydrich's date of enlistment in 1931 was early enough to avoid the charge of careerism, but was not early enough for him to be considered an Old Fighter himself.

We were told that the reason the "numbers" were needed was that they give information to the reader as to when he joined the organizations and the timeline of events. [1]. Well, we've got a fine presentation of that now. So I ask again: what purpose do these two numbers serve?

EEng 08:00, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

In popular culture?

Maybe we could include portrayals of Heydrich in popular culture. An example is that he appears in “The Man in The High Castle” (show) Hossman42!! (talk) 07:54, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Sorry but listing trivial pop culture mentions is not appropriate for military history articles. See WP:MILPOP for further information. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 13:23, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Already been done. See Dramatic portrayals of Reinhard Heydrich. -O.R.^Comms 03:42, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

"Heydrichiada"

In Czech and sometimes in English [2] [3] [4] [5] and even in Spanish [6], the reign of terror after Heydrich's assassination is referred to as the "Heydrichiáda." (Sometimes the first martial law is called the first Heydrichiáda, the reprisals are the second Heydrichiáda.) I think this is worth mentioning in the article. The terror was so bad that the Czechs coined a new word to describe it. Catrìona (talk) 05:34, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

As long as it is WP:RS cited, it could be very briefly mentioned that the reprisals are referred to by Czechs as "Heydrichiáda". Kierzek (talk) 13:36, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

I have added the suggested material, using yet another source. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 14:21, 11 July 2018 (UTC)