Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies

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Language in an article that discussed someone who identifies as non-binary

I'll admit I made a bit of a mess of this because I hadn't realised she identified as non-binary, but the article on the Columbia University rape controversy is continually having problems. See me jumping in ignorantly at Talk:Columbia University rape controversy#What's this nonsense about " (Their pronouns. They go by they/them instead of she/her) ". Almost every day someone's changing the terminology, so if anyone has a solution to keep it stable I'm sure it would be welcome. Doug Weller talk 15:28, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

• In my opinion, we should state that the person is non-binary. With regards to pronouns, he and she don't work as the person is not male and not female. They doesn't work because it is used when the gender is unknown. In my opinion, we should restrict ourselves only to use the person's last name. wumbolo ^^^ 17:57, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Is there a style guide somewhere stating that they/their is only used when gender is unknown? Lots of nonbinary or genderqueer folks have adopted they/them pronouns. Newimpartial (talk) 18:15, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

It's definitely not the case that "they/their" is only used when the gender is simply unknown — singular-they is quite commonly used by non-binary people, and has already been used in a considerable number of BLPs of notable non-binary people on Wikipedia. Bearcat (talk) 16:02, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

It would benefit the encyclopaedia if there were some examples of genderqueer BLPs where the correct pronoun use was established outside of the above norms. I have yet to read an article for someone where their expressed preference excluded binary pronouns or the use of singular they. I would very much like to talk to a specific case, then help to propose extensions to MOS or TRANS rather than attempt to set guidelines based on hypotheticals.

That "lots" of nonbinary and genderqueer people are okay with the use of singular they, does not make it okay for us to presume that nobody else would find themselves being described with these pronouns as misgendering. --Fæ (talk) 09:44, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Katharine Coman article nominated for GA status

I have been working on the Katharine Coman article for a couple of weeks, and today nominated it for GA status. If you are interested, please drop by to check it out.AnaSoc (talk) 03:20, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Hubert Lenoir

I'm of two minds about a source, and wanted to solicit some outside input. My question pertains to this source regarding Canadian musician Hubert Lenoir, specifically the part about two-thirds of the way down the page, where the subject of his sexual identity comes up: "This is a touchy subject, 'cause I don't want to put out the queer flag; I don't know if I define myself as bisexual or queer, because I don't like labels." I'm torn, however, between whether this supports identifying him as LGBTQ and just avoiding pinning him down to a more specific label, or whether it's still too ambiguous to support LGBTQ-related categorization at all — is he saying he's in the LGBTQ family and just doesn't identify with a specific identity label within that, or is he saying he still doesn't know if he's in the LGBTQ family at all? So I wanted to ask for some other opinions either way. Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 15:59, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

If there is a need to include coverage of their sexuality, then at most we should quote what they said, rather than try to interpret their discomfort with certain categories as meaning that they belong in some category. However, if we're not having other sources discussing their sexuality, I'm not sure the sexuality datum rises to the level that it need be covered. --Nat Gertler (talk) 18:31, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

LGBTQ+ Scientists

Hello! I would love to make a WikiProject to upload more LGBTQ+ scientists and engineers to Wikipedia. There are similar projects for other underrepresented groups (women in science, African-Americans in science...) and I often use them as inspiration for wikithons. If anyone is interested in joining me, that would be great! It is my first project. Jesswade88 (talk) 19:39, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Inclusion of birth/dead names

I'm not too versed in writing many things within the scope of LGBT Studies, or rather trans people within the scope of LGBT studies. I'm just wondering about the inclusion of a trans persons birth name if it's been widely included in articles and a book about the subject. For Nicole Maines, her birth name is known as its included in a number of articles about her as well as the book written about her and her family. Just wondering since people have been adding it and I just want to know whether to revert or not or if it's okay. QueerFilmNerd^talk 20:46, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

There's not a lot of guidance on this issue. We have MOS:DEADNAME which says to only use the deadname in the first sentence if the person was notable under that name but doesn't address mentioning it anywhere later in the text. I think the general practice if it's well-sourced is to include it in the "Early life" section. Since the Nicole Maines article is nothing but a lead, it might be best to leave it out for the moment. -- irn (talk) 21:43, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Alright, I'm just wondering since I want to fix the article up. Should I leave it out of the infobox? Because it's mentioned in there right now? And if we keep it in do I move it to "born as..."? QueerFilmNerd^talk 21:53, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Since there are no policies or guidelines on the matter, I can't really tell you what you should do. I can only give you my advice as a fellow editor. (I personally tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to BLPs, but I also tend to defer to the subject.) This is a very contentious issue that comes up a lot. If you're interested, you can take a look at Talk:Danica_Roem#RFC for some discussion of a fairly reliably sourced deadname and how it was ultimately dealt with. Maybe it would be worthwhile for us to come up with some sort of an essay or something as a WikiProject? -- irn (talk) 22:35, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

I think it possibly would be? Even though its discussed within the project MOS, I felt it a tad vague. Maybe elaborating more would help? As I'm sure it would help other editors who wish to not offend anyone write the wrong thing in. QueerFilmNerd^talk 22:48, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Having run into issues with MOS:DEADNAME, my impression is that it fails to be sufficiently respectful for the preferences of the subject. There is no clear reason why a dead name needs to be highlighted in the first few words of the lead paragraph in bold text, especially if the subject is better known in terms of notability, under their current identity. For trans, genderqueer and others, I would much rather see the guidelines refined to put respect first and without compromising the encyclopaedic value of the article, have dead names not highlighted in bold, or deemphasised by being placed later in the lead.

It should be noted that when people are Googled, the "thumbnail" version of Wikipedia that is used, actually drops all deadnames as they are in brackets. This seems more respectful than Wikipedia itself. Try it out with Chelsea Manning. --Fæ (talk) 09:40, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Angela Bowen

Hello. I've just created Angela Bowen. You may or may not want to expand it. Thanks!Zigzig20s (talk) 16:21, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Straightwashing

For those interested, Straightwashing (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) now exists. I think it might be nominated for deletion by someone in the future, though. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:11, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

User:Flyer22 Reborn: References 1 to 5 should be merged as they are the same.Zigzig20s (talk) 04:14, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Yep. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:17, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm confused about the categories... it's not slang, per se, as one can find it in academic discourse. Is there a ref specifically calling it "slang"? Also have any sources directly tied it into appropriation? Does that need to be spelled out directly in the article before the category is applied. I did some general fixes, though. Umimmak (talk) 04:55, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

ContraPoints AfD

An article about the trans YouTuber ContraPoints has been nominated for deletion here. I thought this would be of interest to this WikiProject. I did create the article, and I believe her channel is notable, but I am looking for your honest opinions. Please consider making your voice heard over there. Thanks.--MattMauler (talk) 01:31, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

RfC at Oscar Wilde Memorial Sculpture started

Hi there, an RfC has been started at Talk:Oscar Wilde Memorial Sculpture #RfC on including sentence with offensive nicknames that may be of interest to those in this project. Thank you. Amsgearing (talk) 11:09, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Tom Gallagher (diplomat)

I have created Tom Gallagher (diplomat). You may or may not want to expand it.Zigzig20s (talk) 22:04, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Lost Gay Novels

I started the article Lost Gay Novels on Saturday. It's almost eligible for DYK, and I think very interesting. I'm out of town and can only edit on my phone, but if someone wants to give the article a look-over, expand by at least one sentence, and nominate it, I would be grateful and would be happy to return the favor. = paul2520 (talk) 14:03, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

While on this note, I wasn't sure if the list of 50 could be included in the article. That would be a quick way to expand it to be eligible for DYK (not the list itself, but prose explaining the list). = paul2520 (talk) 14:05, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

I think our readers would want to know. I certainly would.Zigzig20s (talk) 15:05, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Having said that, the list may be copyrighted?Zigzig20s (talk) 15:32, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

User:Paul2520: What you could (should?) do is create a referenced stub about each novel... Please ping me if you need help with this. Thanks.Zigzig20s (talk) 16:03, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

@Zigzig20s: Totally. Some already exist. Then we could link and/or make a category. = paul2520 (talk) 20:52, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Pronouns

So, I just have a question about what pronoun to use for a non-binary person who has no preferred pronoun. Actor Bex Taylor-Klaus came out recently as NB, but has stated that she has no preferred pronoun (as long as its said with respect). There's no agreement on the pronoun that should be used, do we stick with she/her, or, as some people are doing, use they/them. Just wondering! QueerFilmNerd^talk 18:22, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

As the statement is that they identify as enby, and they have no firm preference, it would be consistent to use singular they as a pronoun. This may be something to open for discussion on the talk page before making changes across the article. Others may be aware of further statements about their latest preferences. --Fæ (talk) 19:00, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Alright, I'll definitely open a discussion up so we can get a consensus and maybe a page notice to use they/them on the page in the future (as not everyone might know). I'll leave it as it is right now, but will open a discussion. QueerFilmNerd^talk 21:17, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Sally Oey

I need a second opinion about this. Thanks.Zigzig20s (talk) 00:21, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

@Zigzig20s: the other link I could find on this group is this. To me, it's interesting, and we could mention that Sally self-identifies as LGBTQ, but it's difficult since it seems this list can be updated by anyone. = paul2520 (talk) 14:33, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I have trouble with that list as a reliable source, because it looks like anyone can submit a form. And I would want more sign that shows there is some import or notability to the list to say that being on that list is important. (Which is a different question from whether being LGBTQ is an important factor... but the fact that we cannot state which of those letters she is claimed to be by being on the list makes it a weak claim anyway.) --Nat Gertler (talk) 14:58, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Lige Clarke

Lige Clarke is in need of a major clean-up. I will try to retrieve sources on Newspapers.com, but feel free to help if you can. Thanks!Zigzig20s (talk) 16:01, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

I've trimmed a lot and referenced most of it. Let me know if you can find more sources.Zigzig20s (talk) 18:03, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

GayToday.com

GayToday.com is not an RS, is it?Zigzig20s (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Jason Greene (Freckle)

The newly-created article Jason Greene (Freckle) is about a person who almost certainly meets the notability guidelines, but basically everything else about the article is problematic. The disambiguation isn't standard, the article is promotional, and there's a lot of focus on trivial details. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:17, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Collaboration Nominations

I am nominating Nicole Maines and Doe v. Regional School Unit 26 These are two start/stub class articles on very important trans topics. The articles need serious help to improve them. 91.110.126.179 (talk) 09:35, 4 August 2018 (UTC)