Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Esperanza/Archive1

Wikipedia:Esperanza

• Also included in this nomination: all subpages, and associated talk pages. I suppose people might want to userfy some of the pages for archival reasons if this is deleted, and I can't imagine that would be a problem.
  

Esperanza is an idea that, in theory, sounds like it could do a lot of good, but in practice has proven itself quite harmful to our project culture. It, more than anything else, gives new users the idea that Wikipedia place for socializing rather than working on an encyclopedia. Before people comment on this nomination, I'd like to ask them to browse through the Coffee lounge, talk pages, and archives. Note that many of the people involved with Esperanza are relatively new users, and ask yourself if we are doing the project or these new users a service by presenting them with the notion that this is what Wikipedia is about--and I submit that people most certainly are getting that notion.

Esperanza's stated goal is to build a stronger sense of community amongst editors, but I believe it has failed in that goal, and has actually become detrimental to the construction of a stronger editing community. There is, of course, room for friendship and socialization in a project like Wikipedia, but it must be in a form constructive towards the purpose of the project. Userpage competitions, bimonthly popularity-contests-in-the-form-of-leadership-elections, and canned good cheer are not the building blocks of a healthy working community; collaboration and mutual respect are. By drawing some new users away from the business of building the encyclopedia, Esperanza is impeding their induction into a community based on those principles.

I mean no disrespect with this nomination to the members of and parcipants in Esperanza, and I hope that none is inferred; the organization's membership rolls include a great number of editors who have made superb contributions across the encyclopedia. I firmly believe, however, that Esperanza as an institution is harming the culture and progress of the project, and I therefore propose that we delete it. --Robth^Talk 17:17, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - I agree with Robth. When Esperanza got started, it had a cool idea and a good ideal base. But recently, I've seen some very disturbing trends from some Esperanza members. The feeling, based on multiple statements, that Esperanzan projects should be exempted from rules and policies. The almost arrogant way they claim that if we shut down certain Esperanza projects like the coffee lounge, that we might as well shut down Wikipedia. The sheer mass of the Esperanza projects that do not lead to improving Wikipedia. I'm aware this may make me pretty unpopular, but I don't care, Esperanza is not helping the community, and it is rapidly becoming a sinkhole. There are a LOT of good editors who are a member of the project, and this is not a slam against them. Sadly, there are a few Esperanzans who do live up to the ideals of the original project, and I regret this will make them feel hurt, but I cannot do otherwise. Policies I cite: WP:NOT a social network. --Shrieking Harpy......^Talk|Count 17:29, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong and Speedy Keep Here we go. Well, for starters, Esperanza does work. Talk to a number of editors, me, E@L, Spawn Man, I'm sure other, and they'll tell you that what Esperanza does, works. It has helped many good contributors to both calm down when in the past they have been, shall we say, rather loose cannons, and it has stopped people from leaving. Secondly, I have met with some great wikipedians in Esperanza, wikipedians who, in turn, have helped me develop into what I consider an alright wikipedia, who helps this project. So, I quite strongly disagree with that Esperanza's primary goal has failed. You may also want to look at our Collaboration of the Month. True, our main goal is to help wikipedia's editors, and to strengthen our community, we also work towards imporving the encyclopedia. Admittedly, this was created not even a week ago, so right now, it is still not in full swing, but I think, at the very least, this is more than a statement of intent. So when the nom says "...collaboration and mutual respect are." (the way to a healthy working community), I'd agree. But what the nom hasn't add is that is what Esperanza is doing. II'm not for a second say Esperanza is perfect. It isn't. I'd love to see more projects like COTM started, and we are working towards that. I have also never been too fond of the Coffee Lounge. It's helpful to see areas of wikipedia that need attention, or to hear about an incident on wikipedia that may need admin attention, but I often feel that it detarcts from both Wikipedia and Esperanza. Again, things are being done to combat how much time is spent on the coffee lounge. As I say, Esperanza isn't perfect. I'm not, you're not, Wikipedia is not. But at the sametime, It does a lot of good. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Thε Halo ^Θ 17:35, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater." Huh? Anyway, Esperanza's not just 'far from perfect', it's getting to be a waste of time. The Coffee Lounge is a waste of time. Going to people's talk pages and starting completely off-topic discussions is a waste of time. I'm sorry, but I just don't see how Esperanza's so good for the community. If someone really needs help cooling off in an edit war, they can talk with other users. That's just my take on things; and by the way, this can't be speedy kept. 1ne 17:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
    • How exactly is it a waste of time? If you don't want to participate, don't. I'm not a big fan of the Coffee Lounge either, but that is only one page of Esperanza. Do you have any actual experience with Esperanza? --Fang Aili ^talk 17:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
      • He does. He, and a whole host of others "left" Esperanza early this morning: [1]. Thε Halo ^Θ 17:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • The central idea may or may not be good, but the cruft and attitude that has grown around it is inimical to the encyclopedia and has not been reigned in by Esperanza "leaders". (Regarding the collaboartion of the month, I do wonder what would happen if the Esparanzans voted on a certain article organization and including certain information, and the American historian who happened to be peacefully editing the article was suddenly onslaughted by them.)—Centrx→talk • 17:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
    • I do not appreciate that comment. If an American historian came along, it would in fact be incredibly awesome, as we could use the help. Don't provoke me; I am at the end of my civility cord. DoomsDay349 21:12, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment While I favor this proposal, I'm refraining from labelling this comment as a delete because I fear that this nomination is going to cause a lot of ill will. I completely agree that Esperanza has good intentions, but that the ideal is separated from the reality at this point. Rather than deleting, however, I would favor making this a discussion (and this is probably not the place to do it) on how Esperanza can refocus their efforts in a way that puts the emphasis back on supporting the creation of an encyclopedia rather than what I see as the current over-emphasis on feel-good social engineering. Just my two cents. —Doug Bell ^{talk•contrib} 17:36, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • So you think it should be deleted, but you don't want to vote delete because you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings? – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 17:45, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

    Not exactly "not hurt their feelings", but because I don't know if a deletion discussion is the most constructive way to correct the problem. I actually considered making this proposal a couple days ago, so my comment reflects some of the consideration I had then. I think there is some good in there that is worth preserving amongst all the foolishness. —Doug Bell ^{talk•contrib} 17:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

    To Doug; there is in fact a lot going on to help reform Esperanza. I understand the concerns, and am not here solely to argue my point with no defense. The Collaboration of the Month is the first step to this; it's a reform that's come late, but it will come. I'm hoping to start a snowball effect with that project, and maybe we can one day get enough users for a weekly Collaboration. Remember, lot's of good things underwent reforms and turned out better; the Gregorian Reformation, the Protestant Reformation... so my only two examples are Church related. They sprang to mind. DoomsDay349 21:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, although with no malice. The welcoming committee is a good thing, but that existed before Esperanza. The Esperanza CotM is a marginally good thing, I suppose, but it's the only collaboration type that is defined by who edits the article, not by what article is about, and I don't see that as a good precedent. If the members did not have the Esperanza CotM, and could only work on one of the dozens of other weekly/monthly collaborations, I don't see a problem. Esperanza as a subgroup is not inline with what Wikipedia is, IMHO. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 17:45, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Before you make the decision, please also consider the following sub pages:
  • Wikipedia:Esperanza/Tutorial Drive Designed to improve help pages to provide more specific answers to commonly asked questions dealing with some of the technical minutae of editing.
    • (These all seem redundant, I've linked corresponding programs that already exist Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 23:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC))Wikipedia:Help desk
  • Wikipedia:Esperanza/Collaboration of the Month designed to target a specific article for improvement each month. Currently working on American Revolution
    • (many other collaborations linked elsewhere)
  • Wikipedia:Esperanza/Barnstar Brigade designed to recognize the contributions of deserving parties in all of wikipedia.
    • (Addressed below)
  • Wikipedia:Esperanza/Admin coaching designed to provide one-on-one coaching by admins or other highly experienced users for new users to better learn the intricacies of proper editing at wikipedia
    • Wikipedia:Mentorship / Wikipedia:Adopt-a-User
  • Wikipedia:Esperanza/Alerts Designed to provide support for good editors who are in danger of leaving Wikipedia for various reasons, and to attempt to keep them and their positive contributions around.
    • See above.

  I will concede that certain aspects of Esperenza subculture (the coffee lounge, the userpage focused subsections) stray into the non-sequitur quite often, but also consider that OTHER subpages of worthwhile ventures at Wikipedia, such as Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous) and various aspects of Wikipedia:Reference desk also go well beyond what one would normally consider worthwhile at Wikipedia. It is unreasonable to condemn an entire enterprise like Esperenza simply because of a few questionable messages left at the Coffee Lounge. With any community as large as Wikipedia, are there going people who do not get with the program. So be it. The fact is, the core of Esperanza is quite involved in improving Wikipedia in very direct ways, and not just by "raising morale". If there are subpages at Esperanza you would consider not in with the mission of Wikipedia (I have found a few I would not object to losing), then nominate them for deletion. Consensus held, for example, that the Games page was deletable, and it went bye-bye. But to condemn the entire enterprise, in light of the fact that on the balance, it DOES do very direct, specific things to expand and improve wikipedia, is unreasonable. --Jayron32 17:46, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

  All of these things can be done, and in many cases are already done, separately from Esperanza. Also, Admin coaching is actually a bad idea, and handing out barnstars to all and sundry is demeaning. —Centrx→talk • 18:02, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

  I have to second the opinion that admin coaching is a bad idea (along with editor reviews). They're silly. And while I think barnstars are a fine way of recognizing contributions, they lose their value when a group is actively looking for reasons to hand them out. —Doug Bell ^{talk•contrib} 18:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

  I agree that admin coaching is a bad thing, but I don't see anything wrong with the editor review process at Wikipedia:Editor review, which is outside Esperanza. Carcharoth 23:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Very Strong Keep. I do agree about the Coffee Lounge being deleted. I think it's worthless. However, Esperanza does help the encyclopedia so I'm saying keep for the entire thing (except the coffee lounge). TeckWiz^TalkContribs_{# of Edits} 17:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I tend to agree with Doug Bell that deletion right now would create a lot of hurt feelings. However, my opinion has been changing in the recent weeks and drifting towards ideas like transwikiing the entire idea to, say Wikia and leaving only a redirecting stub on Wikipedia. I believe however, that this is not an issue to be decided on MfD (Village Pump maybe?). Misza13 17:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • What about taking it to meta? Matthew Fenton (talk · contribs · count · email) 17:55, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Esperanza would be laughed out of meta. —Centrx→talk • 18:04, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep I'm not as active in Esperanza as I used to be and so am a little out of date, but I think that it has a valuable role to play - at the very least it does far more good than harm. We do not have an issue with resources here and some of the programs that Esperanza organises are very useful. For example, the admin coaching while backlogged can help a lot, and there is nothing wrong with more forums for debate. It's all in the Wikipedia: namespace, so it can't affect casual browsers. —Xyrael / 17:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep or close. If the problem is that some of the projects end up not helping Wikipedia, then put those up on MFD. I very highly doubt a MFD of all of Esperanza, all its projects, and its subpages will achieve any kind of consensus, given how large the group itself is (and the fact that it exists on other Wikipedias does not help). This is an issue for something such as Meta or the Village Pump, not for MFD. --Coredesat 18:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep Mmmmm! ...has proven itself quite harmful to our project culture. It, more than anything else, gives new users the idea that Wikipedia place for socializing rather than working on an encyclopedia. Where is the harmful thing in that Robth?

Note that many of the people involved with Esperanza are relatively new users... No, If you have ever read some sections at the coffee lounge, many users celebrated their 1,000 edits!!! I also bet that you haven't eben read the membership requirements.

You state that Esperanza's stated goal is to build a stronger sense of community amongst editors, but I believe it has failed in that goal. Another important thing to note here is that Esperanza has contributed enough to the project. Wikipedia:Esperanza/Programs is the proof. I am sorry therefore to disagree w/ every single point you raised. -- Szvest ^{Wiki me up ®} 18:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I also agree somehow w/ Doug Bell and I must add that a project w/ 707 active members is not a joke. Szvest ^{Wiki me up ®} 18:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Well, I'd like to start off by thanking the nominator and most of the delete votes. When I heard this MfD was about to occur, I was afraid this would become a near-sighted attack of Esperanza's members. However, everything so far as been very respectful and well thought-out, and I appreciate that. I agree that at times Esperanzans do more socializing than should be expected, particularly in the Coffee Lounge. However, as a whole, I believe Esperanza is living up to its goals. I could quote the entire introduction on WP:ESP, but I'm sure everyone can read that for themselves. The bottom line is that improving the community does in fact improve the encyclopedia. One of the major things Esperanza does is user appreciation and retention. User appreciation -> users staying on the project -> more contributions -> better encyclopedia. Furthermore, every step Esperanza has taken in the past three months has been towards making it a more encyclopedic project. We have redefined our goals, stressing that "members of Esperanza are here to create an encyclopedia." We have encouraged users to make useful tutorials and collaborate on articles. We have awarded more than 200 barnstars to deserving contributors, and attempted to help the next generation of admins become thoroughly versed in policy and other things every admin should know. If other users think we should double our efforts to define and shape Esperanza as a better project, I'm all for it. But I think the bottom line is that Esperanza is doing much more good than harm, so I say keep. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 18:12, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S.- I'd like to echo previous editors that if there are certain subpages of Esperanza that you feel should be deleted, I encourage you to nominate those individually so we can have a more specific and detailed debate about those. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 18:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep What is this fresh madness? I do feel strongly against this deletion proposal, considering the potential Esperanza has and how far it has come already in achieving its potential. The day Wikipedia functions in harmony is the day we should see this page again - but something tells me that won't happen for a long long time. May I suggest that backers have a look at the Charter to see what we are really all about? Cheers. User:Anthony cfc/signature

I have. The problem is that the Charter is not being followed. When I hear Esperanzans complaining about the Games being up for AfD like it's some kind of outrage and "well, if you delete that you might as well delete everything else" and proposed policy statements putting Esperanzans as equal to admins to chastise people for being uncivil, I worry. The charter is a charter. Many people have reservations about how it's being followed. --Shrieking Harpy......^Talk|Count 18:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep per Jayron32. If certain projects are a problem, lets discuss those, not toss the whole lot. Shell ^babelfish 18:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Xyrael. Will ^{(message ♪)} 18:27, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep It's not April 1st already is it? --Alf ^melmac 18:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment I've seen a lot more distracting socializing than actual encyclopedia work done around esperanza, but I'm not ready to pass a wholesaale deletion judgment. As for the barnstars, I've noticed that they tend to get tossed around very freely there--half a dozen went out to the people who left sympathy messages on the talk page of a user who left without explanation. Wikipedia is supposed to be a community only so far as it contributes to the building of an encyclopedia, and much of this is a distraction from that. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 18:36, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: Well, with or without Esperanza, the value of barnstars is really up to the individual contributors. The Esperanza program that encourages barnstars says, "This does not mean that Barnstars are given away for the sake of giving them away, and it does not mean Barnstars awarded via the project are obligatory awards not to be taken seriously. Barnstars will still be awarded for demonstrable good work, and will remain a symbol for valuable contributors. The object of this program is not to flood editors with Barnstars; it merely aims to look a bit harder than usual for such contributions." For example, all of the barnstars I've awarded have been for encyclopedic purposes. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 18:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
    • The concern here is, as throughout this nomination, is that intent and effect have diverged. Several people have cited various of Esperanza's written rules and guidelines while arguing to keep, and I agree that many of those rules and guidelines are written with good intent and, specifically, with the goal of encouraging involvement in the actual work of encyclopedia building. It does not appear to me that these guidelines have overcome the tendency of Esperanza to serve as a distracting influence and a detriment to the process of integrating all users into a community centered around collective effort on the project. --Robth^Talk 18:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Reading the comments from people who signed up for Wikipedia:Esperanza/Programs#Barnstar Brigade makes me shudder. About a quarter of the comments are of the effect giving out barnstars is fun, I'm going to give out a bunch. This is not an example I would use to argue for keeping Esperanza. —Doug Bell ^{talk•contrib} 18:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
      • I completely concur with this. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 19:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - I think this organization is getting out of hand. First of all, we are an encylopedia, not a social networking site. Esperanza is not conductive to the task of encyclopedia editing. Second of all, I have referred many a person to Wikipedia that have been turned off Wikipedia by the actions of Esperanza and it's members. This is not productive to the community. We should be encouraging people to join, not discouraging them. ✎ Wizardry Dragon ^{(Talk to Me) (My Contributions) (Page Moves) (Support Neutrality on Wikipedia)} 18:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Wikipedia's five pillars - the first pillar is that this is an encyclopedia. I hardly think Esperanza is encyclopedic, and I doubt anyone would contest that. It is that simple. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 18:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

comment neither is Wikipedia:Department of Fun want that and all similar ones gone too?--Alf ^melmac 18:55, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

comment - absolutely, i do. i'm not into exceptions. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 19:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nomination; Esperanza looks like some sort of popularity contest. I don't see its usefulness. _JD^talk 18:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong and Speedy Keep Esperanza is a well established, highly proven and successful organisation (as it were) on Wikipedia. It has a big following a lot of support and thus is very effective in supporting people within Wikipedia. It achieves its goals and is a huge benefit to Wikipedia. All this nomination shows is the sheer boredom of such nominators, driving them to nominate organisations that are clearly successful and positive within Wikipedia as a whole - • The Giant Puffin • 18:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd ask you to assume good faith. This nomination was made in good faith with a reasonable explanation. Just because you disagree with it doesn't make the nominator a bad person. ✎ Wizardry Dragon ^{(Talk to Me) (My Contributions) (Page Moves) (Support Neutrality on Wikipedia)} 18:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment - i have news for you. it is not 'clearly successful' (as per nom). and saying we're 'merely bored' for voting/noming here doesn't add anything to the argument but insults. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 18:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep. I echo the sentiments above. Esperanza is not perfect, but neither is Wikipedia. And what EWS said is perfectly true: stronger community > better Wikipedia. Regards, —Celestianpower ^háblame 18:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment - even if it violates the 1st pillar (WP:5P)? the pillars are foundational. i think wikipedia has a strong community already, and i think community can exist outside of esperanza. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 19:04, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I think I'd much rather have a community built around ... you know, actually building the encyclopedia. I think Wikipedia already does have a vibrant encyclopedia-writing community anyway, and advancing the claim that without Esperanza Wikipedia would lack a community is very denigrating to the real community that actually gets articles written. --Cyde Weys 19:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I know Wikipedia and community in general can exist without Esperanza; I never said it couldn't. What I do believe, however, is that Wikipedia would have fewer strong contributors and a worse atmosphere than it currently does.

(edit conflict) Adressing your point of the five pillars, I don't believe that it does violate "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia". We help the encyclopedia, not only in our specific programs, but by motivating the "workforce". People can't work nonstop, and there's no reason why a small amount of not-directly-on-topic-activity should be disallowed. Regards, —Celestianpower ^háblame 19:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a motivation seminar. Allowing 'small amounts' of whatever is relative; like i said up higher: im not into exceptions. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 19:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Motivate was the wrong word. And anyway, I know that without Esperanza, I would be even less active than I am currently. And I'm not arguing for exceptions. I don't believe that Esperanza violates the letter or spirit of any policies, so wouldn't be an exception to any of them. Regards, —Celestianpower ^háblame 19:36, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Weak keep per deletion discussions regarding the WP:CVU. They're equally useful in my opinion. --tjstrf talk 19:09, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment One article or wikiProject's validity does not speak of another article or wikiProject's validity. ✎ Wizardry Dragon ^{(Talk to Me) (My Contributions) (Page Moves) (Support Neutrality on Wikipedia)} 19:10, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Reply unless the two are comparable in the aspects being discussed. In this case, they are. Both are opposed for the same reason (being club-focused more than article-focused), both have the same minor merits (centralized discussion of... whatever it is they do), and the deletion of either will cause more problems than it will solve. --tjstrf talk 19:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - I think Esperanza has long outlived its usefulness and functions now as little more than a clique that is often used for voting each other into positions of power. Earlier I had my suspicions, but when the green links in the signature links, a sort of in-crowd membership badge, started showing up, I really grew wary. I just don't see the point of Esperanza. EA members point to half-hearted and miscontrued efforts like "admin coaching" or "barnstar brigade" as somehow helping to write the encyclopedia, but the proof just isn't in the pudding. --Cyde Weys 19:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Cyde, the best idea was to approach Esperanza administrators and members and discuss w/ them the concerns brought above. That would have been the best thing to do. Some people above confess that the charter is not respected but don't we communicate that before taking any action like this MfD. -- Szvest ^{Wiki me up ®} 19:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The thing is, the Esperanza Council is not above Wikipedia policies. Frankly, without this MfD I doubt anyone would bother to do anything about this at all. An XfD is not a bad idea if it helps establishing a solution. Misza13 19:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Programs such as Admin Coaching, which are useful can be moved elsewhere, but things like userpage awards, which aren't can be deleted. --Majorly (Talk) 19:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete this does nothing other than promote cliquishness and other stupidity. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a forum for self-congratulatory group-hugs and insipid get-along-gangs. See also this MfD. The Crying Orc 19:17, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• The weakest of very weak keeps. First of all, I would like to point out that I agree with very large chunks of what both the nominator and Elaragirl and the rest of the delete votes are saying. Their opinions are offered in the best of good faith, and comments such as "What is this fresh madness" and "It's not April 1st already is it?" are totally out of line. Such comments are both extremely immature and plain wrong. Even if consensus is to keep, the opinions of fine Wikipedians such as these should not be laughed off. They should be regarded as very fine constructive criticism.

  But the rationale for my keep vote? In my opinion, it is simply a matter of potential. In its current form, Esperanza, I agree, does not do a huge amount of good - in fact, it probably does more harm than good, and I would dearly love to see the wretched Coffee Lounge deleted pretty much instantaneously. I was thoroughly appalled to be voting delete on a whole load of HANGMAN games, not to mention the umpteen billion archives. But, in Esperanza I do actually see the potential for something productive - per The Halo, ECOTM is a fine program, and if it works, will bring great benefit to the encyclopaedia. The Stress Alerts program does at least provide a place for people to vent their exasperation at the WikiWorld, even if nothing else. Esperanza does need to change and be drastically slimmed down, and a virulent focus be brought to bear on the encyclopaedia that we are trying to build. If Esperanza becomes as I would envisage it to be, a place for people to coordinate encyclopeadia work in an agreeable manner, then IMO it will become an asset to the encyclopaedia.

  But this is conditional - probational - at best. If Esperanza does not change as I believe it must, then after six months I shall vote the other way. But potential is there, even if, like Elaragirl, I did not like much of the arrogance I saw at the Coffee Lounge Games MfD. A stay of execution is probably best - but for God's sake burn with fire that wretched Coffee Lounge. Moreschi 19:18, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

  I'm not into mincing my words, my comment was only one half of my thought, the other being - "no, but it's time for the annual bloodbath/bunfest/wiki-drama" - if I'm sick of such happenings and my reaction appears out-of-line, so be it. --Alf ^melmac 19:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

  • No, I'm sorry, but I've changed my mind. The harm outweighs the good - no matter how well ECOTM works, there is too much I've been uneasy with for too long - power issues and "Esperanza votes" at RFA, something I see too much of. Maybe send to Wikia, but at any rate this probably has to go. Delete. Moreschi 20:04, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep I truly believe that without Esperanza Wikipedia would not be the place that it is. Okay, it does tip over into socialising sometimes (like the coffee lounge; fun, but is it necessary?), but there is so much support from Esperanza that without it, the community would just be...well, hopeless. Just consider some of the programs:

Stress Alerts

Barnstar Brigade

Reach out

Seriously, Wikipedia without Esperanza is really a foreboding image. You'd be hard-pressed to find a user who hasn't had at least one Esperanzian say a nice word to them. I really feel that the community needs esperanza's support. To quote Redvers, Esperanza is "that voice that says "thank you for your contribution. Have a barnstar. What a nice user page. Have you thought of being an admin. Don't worry that your contribution has been rejected loudly. We valued it. Thanks."", and without that, I do see quite a lot of people getting fed up. We need all the contributors we can get, and so often, users are on the verge of leaving, when EA talks them away from the edge. I can't see this project doing anyone any harm, in fact, quite the opposite. ^{Well Drawn} Charlie 19:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

"Wikipedia without Esperanza is really a foreboding image"? Really? What about all the thousands of people who steer clear of it, or all of the people who managed just fine before it existed? Don't get such an inflated sense of self-importance that you cannot possibly fathom Wikipedia without your beloved Esperanza ... because many of us can, and it looks pretty much the same. --Cyde Weys 19:32, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry that you feel that way, but try to remain cool. That was just my opinion, and I'd like to think I'm entitled to it :). ^{Well Drawn} Charlie 19:35, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I've never gotten an Experanzian nice word. I've been on wikipedia for years. And i don't think that 'Wikipedia without Esperanza is really a foreboding image'. I kinda feel the opposite :/ . JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 19:36, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Since some people think many editors are too new for Ezperanza, let's consider raising the number of edit to at least 150 article edits. Either that or 250 overall edits. TeckWiz^TalkContribs_{# of Edits} 19:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep A group such as Esperanza is necessary to encourage new users to interact and get to know our more experienced users, giving them the sense that there are other people there to help them in case they need help, or if they're considering leaving the project. Shadow1 (talk) 19:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I think hundreds of thousands of users survived a-ok without Esperanza before it started, and I don't think it is suddenly necessary now. :/ JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 19:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• I like the Esperanza idea, actually. I really do. But I've watched it change over the time I've been here in directions I'm not sure I favour, so I left it. I've seen efforts to try to change it to get it back on track, to supporting the project of writing an encyclopedia (why we are here!), but they haven't completely worked. And there are parts of Esperanza I think are fine, as is, although I know others disagree. For instance, Admin coaching, properly executed, is a way for interested prospective admins to learn if adminning is really for them, and for others (the coaches) to evaluate whether they'd actually be suited. At least one of my coachees, I think is not a fit, and I wouldn't hav.e known without the process...

So Esperanza has good parts, worthy of saving. But something needs to change. I reserve further comment for now, to see how well the core Esperanza thought leaders respond... can they take this criticism on board more effectively than they have in the past? Time will tell. Often, an XfD can be a spur to change. I've seen article after article improved because of AfDs. Can Esperanza be completely redone in a week to address the criticisms the delete commenters raise? I'm not sure it could, it's rather a massive undertaking. But if there were signs that change was in the offing, perhaps that would be good enough. As an aside I am not sure moving to Wikia is the answer... needs more thought and discussion ++Lar: t/c 19:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep & Cleanup It seems to me that most of the opposition here acknowledged that Esperanza is a good idea, they contend it went wrong somewhere. I would contend that Esperanza is suffering from the same influx of people who are coming to Wikipedia, trying to change it into something it is not. That being said, I don't think deletion is the answer; it would only throw the baby out with the bath water. I do think that we need to reexamine our operation, and perhaps consider changes to our governance if it would result in a stronger Esperanza. --RoninBK_ETC 20:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong and speedy and are-you-kidding-is-it-april-fools-day-already keep What harm is it doing? Give examples. WP:IGNORE. Alethiophile^{Ask me why} 20:20, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

  Give examples? I take it you didn't bother to read through what's been said then. —Doug Bell ^{talk•contrib} 20:27, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

  Comment: This is not a vote, so comments such as this one do not add much to the conversation. This nomination was done in good faith, and most of the contributors to the discussion are acting civilly and reasonably. I recommend that everyone take the time to really think about this nomination and make a well-reasoned argument. One word or one sentence "votes" won't do much to add to the debate. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 20:32, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

  Furthermore, Alethiophile, and you should know this, WP:IGNORE only applies to things that directly imrpove the encyclopedia. We (the delete votes) are saying that, regardless of what the intention of Esperanza was/is, the actualization of Esperanza is that it is becoming divisive, that it is violating WP:NOT beyond the exceptions we usually give (Department of Fun type things), and that Esperanzans are beginning to act as if they are superior to other users. The nom was in good faith, and so were all the votes. For crying out loud I nominated Spawn Man for admin, and he's an inclusionist to boot. It's not about the people,it's about how Esparanza is acting. If it moves to Wikia I'd have no problems with external links to it, but it no longer serves a purpose here, and by some of the dismissive attitudes and non-arguments I've seen, it seems as if you see Esperanza as more important than Wikipedia. This are my opinions, if I'm wrong, tell me why. --Elaragirl ||||||^Talk|Count 20:55, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Extremely strong keep Esperanza is the only reason I am here, in two senses of the word. I got depressed for a while, stopped editing the main encyclopedia, but stuck around the coffee lounge because I had made friends there. I recovered and started editing again. Then something huge happened in my life and I was very close to suicide (despite what I may have told my friends). However, people showed an incredible amount of support for me, all of whom were friends from Esperanza or were notified of my problems from Esperanzan friends or the Alerts page. Without their show of support, I may safely say that I would not be here today.
  While I know perfectly well that building an encyclopedia is the main focus here (obviously), I have chosen to focus much of my attention on the other users (helping them out, cheering them up, etc.), as I believe that the social side of Wikipedia is important as well. When people are stressed and ready to leave, a kind word or message of appreciation may help to change their mind. Real-life troubles can bring prolific editors down and they are no longer interested in editing. I try to help people, and through my actions I hope that others are more productive -- so in giving up one editor (myself) to spend time helping others I sincerely hope that I am helping many more people remain, or stay interested in, the encyclopedia.
  Esperanza has helped me do this, and provides a very necessary place to go to for help; and the coffee lounge is a perfect place to lighten up and relax when life is tough :-) — Editor at Large^(speak) 20:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment - and i think that the coffee lounge can do the same thing if it was migrated to Wikia with all of Esperanza. It would keep both sides happy. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 20:50, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

As cold as this sounds, this is exactly why it's up for deletion. We're not here to be a chat room and support network, we're here to build an encyclopedia. The social side of wikipedia is there to support that, not editors' personal problems. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 23:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• • • Aye, indeed it does sound cold. A) Check out my below comments. They might help. B) I ask you; what is wrong with accomplishing the same goal in a shorter route? Some cases aren't as drastic as E@L, but a lot of people have personal problems that cause them to leave Wikipedia. They might find support elsewhere, but what the hell is wrong with getting it from Wikipedia? And I really don't want a WP:NOT reference; this goes deeper than policy. This goes to moral itself, and that, my friend, is more important than policies, more important than Wikipedia itself. Is it right to tell someone "No, no support here, go find a chatroom" or is it right to say "Yes, we understand, come on in"? If you can really say that you believe it is the correct thing to do to turn away someone in need, then I might as well leave Wikipedia right now. Because that is not an attitude I care to be associated with. DoomsDay349 23:55, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong keep, as community and cooperation are important to the this massive effort of building an encyclopedia. As for the Coffee Lounge and the non-editing-related "games" on Wikipedia, though, it won't be devastating to put them somewhere else. --Gray Porpoise^{cetaceans have large brains} 20:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • • I'm so sorry for the comment I just removed! I intended no offense by it! --Gray Porpoise^{Is this overformatted?} 22:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • ...or redesign, with plenty of thought, as long as it's not destroyed entirely. --Gray Porpoise^{cetaceans have large brains} 21:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep Well the reson is obvious, per WP:IGNORE, anything that is beneficial to the project should be kept, even if it has to disrgard other rules to exist. If it means people come back and edit, and get support and stay when otherwise they would live, and continue to contribute to the project, then the existence of esperanze is incredibily beneficial to the project, we cannot rely on obsessive nerds to run wikipedia, there has to be some support for normal people, and if this is how some of those people find their support, then it helps contributors, who in tun help the project. And if that isnt what you want, why are you even on wikipedia? Philc _T^E_C^I 21:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment - wikipedia existed just fine for a long, long time before Esperanza, run by 'obsessive nerds' and you put it as well as normal people. wikipedia is not reliant on Esperanza - i think you'd be hard pressed to prove it. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 21:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

...nor is it reliant on help pages, good article candidates, speedy deletions, or, heck, NPOV. These things keep Wikipedia as a proper, non-chaotic, encyclopedia that does not deter newbies, but, like Esperanza, they're not necessary to the project; only the funding to keep it going, at least one editor, and no violation of law. It's a good quality to be able to vigorously defend your view, but the more deletionists do so, the more I shall. --Gray Porpoise^{cetaceans have large brains} 21:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

removed help pages and NPOV and you tell me if wikipedia would go to hell in a handbasket or not. remove esperanza, and i don't think the same would happen at all. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 21:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Strong keep and cleanup. The Wikicruft areas of Esperanza, like the userpage awards or whatever can be deleted or moved to Wikia. However, the programs which are used in an effort to improve the quality of the encyclopedia (such as Admin Coaching) should stay. Even if you personally think there is no merit to some of these encyclopedia improvement areas, others will certainly disagree. Firsfron of Ronchester 21:06, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: Wikipedia would lose much more potential allowing people to be driven away than providing something that only takes a few minutes a day to actively participate in. --Gray Porpoise^{cetaceans have large brains} 21:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

This is totally not the issue at hand. Plaudits are nice, but justify its existence with wiki-policy. I think you'd find that policy is pretty clear against most of its existence, if not all of it. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 21:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The policy is not set in stone. I believe that Esperanza helps us more than it harms us. For example, its efforts to consult stressed Wikipedians may be helping to keep people from leaving the project forever. The Admin Coaching program (though I wish it was named differently) is a way for editors to help each other improve. EA needs some modifications, but deletion is going too far. --Gray Porpoise^{cetaceans have large brains} 21:35, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Esperanza would need a LOT of modifications to make most people happy, and I'm just not that patient to wait for these changes. I don't see why building it again better from the ground up is any harder than from the top down. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 21:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

My own metaphor: Don't release the wrecking ball until we have a good scale model of the new structure. Then, though, it can be built again from the ground up. --Gray Porpoise^{cetaceans have large brains} 21:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

If you're saying in that that there was never a good scale model of Esperanza in the first place, then it should definitely be here at MfD. I don't see why starting over wouldn't be possible, or even hard. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 21:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Delete - Esperanza is a project that in no way contributes to the encyclopedia. They play games and give out rewards to people with pretty userpages. The CotM is fine, yes, but that can easily live on without a big e on the page. It wastes time. Users, even some admins, participate in this project, and in the meantime the work just keeps piling up. I spend 3 hours on wikipedia a day, plus or minus, and the entire time I am at RC, or newpages, or on vandalproof. If I was doing something like this, it would be the only thing I did. Remember that Wikipedia is not a blog, webspace provider, or social networking site. ST47Talk 21:17, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

  Wikipedia is a collaborative effort to build an encyclopedia. Therefore, we need editors. It's their choice whether they want to participate, so we need to be welcoming to them. Some of the reasons people have put up for the deletion of Esperanza could be applied to userpages, Wikipedia:Welcome, the sandbox, Wikipedia:Civility, Wikipedia:Concordia... --Gray Porpoise^{cetaceans have large brains} 21:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep... but selective move to Wikia of the non-encyclopaedically-helpful material such as the Coffee Lounge as discussed below. haz (talk) e 21:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Refactor - As you may have known, I am no big fan of Esperanza because it does not help the encyclopedia. However, I am also a big fun of promoting WikiFun and WikiLove. That being said, I would not mind Esperanza existing if it promised to refactor itself. First off, anything that does not contribute to the encyclopedia must be disposed of -- this means coffee lounge, games, and the pointless bureaucracy (if you insist on having a leader, please cut it down to one advisor or so). If you wish to keep them, then you can move it off of Wikipedia. Additionally, Esperanza should seek to be small (in number of pages), non-cabalistic, and encourage more encyclopedic contributions. Also, I'm not a big fan of Admin Coaching: it makes adminship look like a holy grail you have to train for. If you could change it to, say, Editor Advice, that'd be more within my goal of making Esperanza helpful for the encyclopedia. If you have any questions in regards to my ideas, feel free to ask me. ★MESSEDROCKER★ 21:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep - I wouldn't mind too much if the coffee lounge and other unrelated parts were moved to Wikia, but the project itself is helpful in Wikipedia, and it would probably devastate many users if it were deleted. —The Great Llama ^talk 21:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and Esperanza has long since stopped being useful to the encyclopedia. It is a great example of a violation of WP:NOT hoopydink^{Conas tá tú?} 21:32, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. I'm seeing many users saying "promotes cliquishness, stupidity, Esperanza is a dumb club, etc.". How in the world can you say that? A clique, by nature, shuns those unlike it. When, and give me one good example, when has a user ever claimed to be better than another on the sole basis of being part of Esperanza? As for stupidity, I understand the root of that concern; the coffee lounge. I attempted to begin a reformation of the coffee lounge, recently, and I did the best I could. What we could do besides deleting it is discuss it on it's discussion page and work through the silliness, come up with guidelines, etc., etc., and try to return it to it's original goal. And finally, for the "dumb club" label. Essentially same as being a clique; but there's another point I'd like to make. Esperanza is, in fact, clubbish. But just because you don't belong to the club doesn't mean we adopt a "not with us, you're against us view". We can still work together; it's your choice not to be in Esperanza; but I think that a lot of you have adopted the "Not with us, against us" view. Forgive me if this sounds like a personal attack, it's really not meant to be. But I'm seeing "Hey, Esperanza is different from me. Delete." kinda thing going on. Esperanza is like...a volunteer group. You don't have to be with us, but everyone can benefit from us. DoomsDay349 21:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

  I will say this, DoomsDay349, you are attempting, from what I've seen at the Esperanza Talk pages, to shake things up and change things. You are one of the few who does. I feel really bad in a way about noming your page for AfD, but I would like to say that DoomsDay349 is the way an Esperanzan should act, all the time with class and dignity and civility. I don't see what you said above as a personal attack in anyway, but allow me to refactor your statement back at you : are you sure you are seeing Esperanza clearly, or what you'd like Esperanza to be? --Elaragirl ||||||^Talk|Count 22:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Per my above statements. DoomsDay349 21:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• KEEP KEEP KEEP! Per everyone else's comments--IAMTHEEGGMAN^{Δdark side} 21:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Leave editors alone If Esperanza helps a single editor be civil, that is a net gain to the project. If it is, as some posts here suggest, turning into a cabal and vote-stacking, collect the evidence and take it to ArbCom. Having Esperanza as a WP Project should make this easier to do, and therefore ought to be encouraged; again, for the good of the encyclopedia. In short, Keep. Septentrionalis, a nonmember of Esperanza, 22:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• My personal opinion, which I've held since becoming a regular contributor over a year ago, is that organizations like this really aren't necessary or helpful. This isn't just because I would never even think about signing up for such a thing. It's because I think it's not in the best interests of the project – and by "project", I refer to the encyclopedia that's sitting out there somewhere, not the "community" that appears to have sprung up behind it. These pages and others like them turn Wikipedia into a social networking website, something that is explicity mentioned in What Wikipedia Is Not. So I say delete, and while this MfD seems unlikely to succeed now I shall continue to say "delete" for the foreseeable future – Gurch 22:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• 'Delete per nom, Esperanza was a good idea in the beggining, but declined it quality to become sort of the wikipedia version of myspace, transwiki is fine as well, and Keep and rename the admin coaching part to Wikipedia:Admin coaching Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 22:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Warning - this is long Esperanza is, in theory, a good idea.

  Esperanza takes its name from the Spanish word for hope. Esperanzians try to spread hope throughout the encyclopedia, and Spanish is used in the hope that a segment of the Wikipedia community will never again break away as a portion of the Spanish Wikipedia did to form Enciclopedia Libre.

When I first visited the Esperanza page shortly after signing up for a Wikipedia account (when I still wasn't all that familiar with what Wikipedia was or how it worked) I read that and thought it spoke of a painful thing that had happened to the beautiful idea that is Wikipedia, and a desire on the part of some individuals to "never let this happen again". In the 9 months or so I've been fiddling with Wikipedia I've discovered that lots of people ultimately grow frustrated with Wikipedia and leave. I look at pages like Wikipedia:Esperanza/Alerts that say things like,

If you notice that a Wikipedia user is showing signs of stress, taking a wikibreak, or considering leaving the project altogether, please add the user to the appropriate list below so that the Esperanza community can intervene with encouraging comments and suggestions.

and think again, what a beautiful idea. However, I don't think that's happening. A while back I noticed a comment from a user who had edited mostly in the mainspace, adding many beautiful, well-written (I would call it brilliant prose), informative articles on notable racehorses. These articles were referenced, but did not use in-line citations and were not fully wikified (which makes sense - new users don't know how to use wikimarkup and those stupid citation templates are a pain in the butt to learn how to use when you first start here). Moreover, the beautiful prose was more appropriate to story-telling then to an encyclopedia. Several of these wonderful articles were tagged for clean-up, mostly with {{inappropriate tone}} templates (like I said, they were written in the voice of a story teller). The person (a professional writer of fiction in real life) was highly insulted, thinking their work was not good enough for Wikipedia. They started blanking their articles and preparing to leave the project. I immediately thought of Esperanza. After all, isn't that their stated goal? To help people who are feeling stressed by the nature of Wikipedia, to discourage them from leaving? So I posted to stress alerts, expecting someone from Esperanza to follow up with them. Meanwhile I talked to them and tried to help them. No one from Esperanza ever followed up on the stress alert. The person did eventually decide to stay. While posting to the stress alert page I saw a thing about barnstars and decided to give the person one (a tireless contributor one, I thought it was appropriate considering the sheer number of horse articles they had written or improved). I think the barnstar was what convinced them to stay.

I think Esperanza has lost sight of its purpose. Esperanza didn't go rushing to that person with arms stretched out to give them hope. Esperanza's barnstar brigade didn't notice that person and give them a barnstar. Even when a request was made for Esperanza to go help that person; they ignored it.

I see a lot of people here complaining that Esperanza and their coffee lounge and their games are a "distraction". I hear comments like, "The Coffee Lounge is a waste of time" and, "It... gives new users the idea that Wikipedia place for socializing rather than working on an encyclopedia," and, "Esperanzans do more socializing than should be expected" and, "I've seen a lot more distracting socializing than actual encyclopedia work done around esperanza" and I just cringe. In addition to contributing here, I also contribute a little to the Simple Wikipedia. One reason I haven't contributed more there than I have is that about the time I discovered Simple, it blew up. I won't get into details, especially since I wasn't really involved; but the problem had to do with the attitude of the (one and only) bureaucrat there. One of the (apparently objectionable) things that the bureaucrat did was to unilateraly delete the Esperanza coffee lounge with a reasoning of, "write articles, Wikipedia is not a social club". He(?) also said things like, "I'm actually coming to the mind that the page is useful only in that it helps identify non-productive users who need to be kicked in the ass out the door," and, "I see anyone playing chess or other non-productive crap on this wiki, and I will start using blocks to discourage that". This was some of the first things I saw when I started poking around Simple after signing up for an account. I found that threatening. I almost felt like I should stay away from Simple unless I were prepared to devote 8-hours a day to writing simple articles and doing nothing else.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Wikipedia (be it en, simple, or any of the others) is not a job. I contribute to Wikipedia because I enjoy it. I enjoy learning new things, sharing the things I've learned with others, honing my writing and research skills, and yes, the occasional off-topic chat. We are not paid to edit wikipedia. We do it for fun. The sorts of comments that are being made about Esperanza, both here and on Simple, make it seem like Wikipedia is a job, and that esperanzians are wasting time on the job and should be disciplined. Now, I'm sorry, but I'm not Wikipedia's employee.

Even if Wikipedia was a job, and we were its employees, I think there would be a place for something like Esperanza. Where I work we have a human resources department. If we have a problem (we're not getting along with a coworker, we're swamped with work, we're unhappy with our pay, whatever) we're encouraged to go talk to HR. They are there to improve employee retention, help alevieate stress, etc. They organize the Christmas party, outings to the zoo, a fun little "benefits fair" (which I expected to be open enrollment for health care, but wasn't), etc. When someone quits or is fired they do an exit interview, and if someone is thinking of quitting because of a problem or stress, they try to fix the problem rather then lose a good employee. It seems to me that Esperanza is ment to fill that role on Wikipedia.

In real life I quit a job a little more then a year ago and went to the one I have now. Admittedly, sometimes I'm frustrated and dissatisfied with the one I have now, but it's a whole heck of a lot better then the one I left not-so-long ago. A big part of the reason is that it's a friendlier, happier atmosphere. When I actually have work to do (the last couple months have been really slow) I'm far more productive then in the other place.

Sometimes I look at comments like those of the Simple Wikipedia's (now former) bureaucrat and am reminded of my boss at my old job. I think to myself, "If I wanted to put up with that I wouldn't have quit that job. I'm sure as heck not going to subject myself to that for free." I don't think anything anyone has said here is quite as bad as what the bureaucrat on simple said, but it's still the same attitude; and it's a bad one for a company and an even worse one for an all volunteer encyclopedia written by people in their spare time.

To sum up this rather long statement; I don't think Esperanza is terribly successful in their efforts to relieve stress, provide hope, and stop people from leaving. I think it needs a wake-up call; and I think this MFD is it. However, I do think that Wikipedia needs something like Esperanza. Therefore I think that Esperanza should be Kept. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)} 21:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC) (P.S. I am not a member of Esperanza)

• Comment. I agree with a lot of the above, but some stuff I don't. If I do say so myself, there is a biased view of Esperanzians, but if you ask me, we don't even know it. It's subconsious; I can't come up with the reason. Anger? Jealousy? Envy? Who knows. But what I feel is a lot of underlying "Esperanzians are more stupid and less valuable than I am, for that simple reason". I'm not attacking anyone in particular, but that's how I'm feeling. Ah, but out of adversity comes greatness. Thus, I see the need for the reformation of Esperanza. Firstly, the Coffee Lounge. No, I do not believe it should be deleted, but it most be regulated. Not moved. If we move it, that says "Oh, let's sweep it under the rug. It won't bother us that way." We have to address the problem here and now. What do I think, then? I have a lot of ideas; you'd hate a lot of them for their radicalness. One is limiting the number of messages you are allowed to post daily; I'm not sure if that's the way to go, but it's a thought. Another is an old idea of mine; a friendly warning to those who spend too much time there. I know it seems like a nice way of saying "Get the Hell out", but that's really not my intent for it. It's just a way of helping out the users, saving them from themselves, you know. Then, we have Esperanza's other programs. I'm not trying to present a biased view of the ECOTM, but it was said before that "There are many other COTWs they could join". Be that as it may, what, what I ask you, is the harm in having one more. How does that prevent us from building the encyclopedia? Hell, it is building the encyclopedia! But then there are other programs. OK; Stress Alerts. It's slow, and sometimes if we don't know them, we don't respond. That is something we can't reform; it's your choice to respond or not. But there's no reason to remove it; what harm is done? Happy Birthday Program, next. This is borderline, I must say. While it doesn't do us harm, it is tough to say how much good it actually does. So what do I say about it? Keep it, sometimes it helps to know that someone out there gives a damn. Ah, but now Barnstar Brigade! I agree wholly with the deletion of this; this would be like handing out the Stanley Cup to every hockey team for "good effort". Barnstars are an honor and should be earned, and unless you edit in an area where no one ever sees it, you'll get one. Admin Coaching, in short, is useless; I won't argue either way on that. User Page Award? Another one of those, no harm but how much good things. Though, I think we ought keep it for the purpose of recognizing those who are especially good at Wikimarkup and thus can design their page well. To-Do list, I know next to nothing about, but I'd wager it's dead or slow; so I'll say yeah let's get rid of it. And the Tutorial Drive, well, is incredibly useful in both teaching new users Wikimarkup and discouraging vandalism. Well, that's my two cents...a bit more than two cents, though, I must say :). DoomsDay349 22:09, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: May we please try to start formulating new reasons for and against the deletion? Using the same arguments over and over in different wording will not help to reach consensus. --Gray Porpoise^{cetaceans have large brains} 22:12, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

  Comment - despite your impassaioned plea, you basically admit that at least half the program is marginal at best....so it's hard for me to reconsider my opinion. --Elaragirl ||||||^Talk|Count 22:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

  Yes, I did. My point was that yes it's flawed; so weed out what's not good and keep the rest. Take the split of the Roman Empire, for example. A once whole and flawed Empire split to form two distinctly different halves. The eastern half prospered and thrived whilst the western degenerated and was destroyed, essentially. Thus, one half survived for the reason it removed itself from the other. Same deal here. DoomsDay349 22:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Esperanza had a purpose awhile ago, and a good one at that. Now, it has not retained its goal of what it was in the beginning. The only thing it is responsible for these days is steering people away from contributing to the encyclopedia, and instead giving a place for people to hang out. This is not myspace, this is not a place to meet people, this is an encyclopedia, and a serious project. We have work to do here, we don't have time to play around. EA is hardly as active as it was, say, six months ago, and based on my personal experiences with it, it only serves to drive editors away from the main purpose of Wikipedia, rather than provide love and support (I know this because I hardly ever received the latter, and instead was nearly driven off Wikipedia). Please, let's get back to writing an encyclopedia, and create better, more important things than this organization. // Pilotguy (Cleared to land) 22:32, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Quote: "We have work to do, we don't have time to play around". I'm sorry but do you realize that that is the exact attitude that gets rid of so many users? I agree; it is serious. Wikipedia is not a collection of stern faced impassioned writers. We are a community of regular people (unless you, of course, have some superhuman power to avoid communication) who need intereaction and support. Interaction doesn't mean social networking; it means a friendly face to talk to when you're down, not when you're up. That is the main problem with the Coffe Lounge: people go there when they are in good spirits to chat, not in bad ones to get support. DoomsDay349 22:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Did you even read what I wrote? Don't think this organization hasn't been responsible for driving off users, because it has. It was far from friendly to me and many other users. Please don't continue to patronize me and waste your time any further. // Pilotguy (Cleared to land) 23:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I read what you wrote. What do you mean it's driven off users? You're actual account might help; just saying "They were mean to me" doesn't cut it. How has Esperanza not been friendly? As for patronizing you, either you are severely mistaken or you need to pick up a dictionary; I'm far from agreeing with you. Take a look at some of my below comments; they might help.

Another reason for deletion: All of the hideously long, over-formatted sigs I'm seeing in this debate. I can't quite put my finger on it but there is definitely a correlation between being an Esperanza member and having an obnoxious, flowery, overly-long signature that inhibits editing with no "benefits" other than "looking nice". --Cyde Weys 22:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, come on now! You are pulling out the stops on this one, aren't you. "Oh, they have a nice sig! Let's delete Esperanza!" Try to make some sense, next time. DoomsDay349 22:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Funny, I noticed the same thing when I went and looked at the Coffee Lounge earlier. I don't think I saw a single signature which had not been trumped up in some ridiculous way (admittedly, I would probably have done something to my own sig -like making it green- if I only knew how). The Crying Orc 22:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

If by "nice" you mean hideously long, over-formatted, obnoxious, flowerly, overly-long, and inhibits editing, then yes. --Cyde Weys 22:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Repeating what you've already said doesn't help. A) Elaborate and B) Give examples. And, for the record, how in the world does this affect the MFD? So what if those users have long signatures? It has nothing to do with Esperanza. Give them warnings and be done with it. DoomsDay349 22:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

It affects the MFD because Esperanza encourages this, what with the various sig workshops and the green e link that was practically mandatory awhile back. They encouraged sig spam; they gotta go. Ohh, and as for warnings, well ... Cyde Weys 22:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm terribly sorry! Is my signature over-formatted? (I'm not being sarcastic; I want to know how far is too far.) --Gray Porpoise^{Is this overformatted?} 22:36, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• I've toned my own signature down, but flashy sigs are commonplace. I don't really hold that against them, Cyde, considering I had for a long time the most page-stopping sig in Wikipedia. shuffles off --Elaragirl ||||||^Talk|Count 22:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I see your point. You didn't really make that clear before, thanks for doing so. I'm sorry if I sounded mean or abrasive, it's just that something like this makes it hard to stat civil. Thanks for the warning, incidentally; I'll be leaving you a message on what exactly is wrong with mine. No images, you know...I suppose the green 9 is part of the problem, eh? DoomsDay349 22:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• An observation: I've never felt particluarly negative towards Esperanza, but to all Esperanzans participating here, I would like to say that the conduct of many of you reflects poorly upon the project you defend as intended to "be a friendly and approachable community". Responses here are fraught with assumptions of bad faith and incivility.
  • For the three of you that so enthusiastically defend Esperanza be calling for a Speedy keep, why is that? Please read the guideline linked to. Esperanza is not an article or policy, this is not unanimous, the nominator is certainly not banned, and MFD is where it goes; do you realize that speedy (not strong) keep is an implication of bad faith or vandalism on the nominator?
  • For those of you engaging in out-and-out assumptions of bad faith or incivility, I am utterly flabbergasted.

"Don't provoke me; I am at the end of my civility cord":"What is this fresh madness?"

"Keep It's not April 1st already is it?"

"All this nomination shows is the sheer boredom of such nominators"

"are-you-kidding-is-it-april-fools-day-already keep"

"This is ridiculous."

"we cannot rely on obsessive nerds to run wikipedia...And if that isnt what you want, why are you even on wikipedia?"

"Leave editors alone"

• To be blunt, but, I think, entirely justified; If this is the civility parade, I'd rather stay at home. Esperanza aims to enhance the encyclopedia by improving the community. If so, the poor conduct abounding on this very page is astounding. I think it's time for all participants to rethink their participation. Dmcdevit·t 22:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I left the first message you posted; I'm sorry about that. I was really, really shocked at this and then the comment about the ECOTM seemed like an attack to me at the time, and I seriously almost lost it there. To you, the user I said that to, and to everyone else, I apologize. I've tried to defend my views on other parts of this page civilly yet passionately. Again, I feel bad about that. DoomsDay349 22:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, and heartily so. Assuming bad faith on behalf of the nominator and delete voters is deeply wrong, against WP:AGF, and, for that matter, unEsperanzian. Moreschi 22:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• • My apologies... I assumed good faith, but didn't sound like it... I hereby abstain from this discussion, lest I hurt anyone else. --Gray Porpoise^{Is this overformatted?} 22:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey, now, no need to leave. And a message to the above; yes maybe I (and others) assumed bad faith, but aren't you now assuming bad faith of us? I've justified myself and apologized; as you see, it wasn't made in bad faith, just sheer shock. DoomsDay349 22:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I certainly appologise for the speedy comment. Not done out of any disrespect, just how I felt at the time. I don't mind admitting that it came as a shock to see this here. I've struck through my speedy, as it was said in the spur of the moment, with no bad intentions. Thε Halo ^Θ 23:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I say keep, since 1) It looks like a usefull project, and 2)What does it hurt to have here? I mean is wikipedia that crunched on server space?

• Comment. Dmcdevit has a very good point. I find some of the comments on this page completely unhelpful, and I would have thought that Esperanzians would be able to react much better than this. A few observations from me, that certain participants of this debate need to remember:
  1. This is a good-faith nomination. The people !voting are are rational, sane people, simply with differing opinions. They are perfectly entitled to their opinions.
  2. MfD is not a vote. It is a discussion, and this is especially important to remember on a contraversial debate such as this. We are not head-counting. !Votes with no meaningful or thoughtful comments attatched will likely be ignored. If you've not got anything useful to the discussion to say, please don't say at all.
  3. Civility is non-negociable. No matter how attacked or hard-done-by you feel, that is not applicable to this MfD. By all means complain and "blow off steam" in private, but this isn't the place.
• Sorry if I'm dictating or whatever, but I'm really disappointed in how this seems to be degenerating into a slanging match. I don't want apologies; I just want people to think before they post. Kind regards, —Celestianpower ^háblame 23:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Delete. I've never seen Esperanza accomplish anything useful (and I've seen a lot of talk page entries created related to Esperanza), but I'm not sure that's a good enough reason to delete it. --Gwern (contribs) 23:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete this page, Keep Esperanza -Monkey 13!!! 22:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • It's votes like this that make me think less of esperanza and the people who participate in it.Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 23:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Its comments like that that make people feel that there is a need for esperanzas freindly atmosphere. Philc _T^E_C^I 23:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Considering that Monkey13 moved this entire page to 'Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense' need much more be said? Assuming bad faith on the part of the nominator and everyone who opted to delete, disrupting the functioning of Wikipedia in order to perpetuate social networking, lack of critical engagement with the issues at hand... The Crying Orc 23:18, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
      • (edit conflict) Monkey13 just moved this page to BJAODN in the middle of the debate and then made a comment that's extremely ignorant of procedure. I've seen many comments about how esperanza keeps good editors around, and I'm sure there are good people in esperanza, but things like what Monkey13 just did are actually detrimental to the project. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 23:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
        • The lesson that should be learned from this is not "Esperanza is harmful", but "Think your edit over multiple times before submitting it." --Gray Porpoise^{Is this overformatted?} 23:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
          • • Listen though; you can't let one user reflect how all of Esperanza feels! Most of us really do assume good faith, and Monkey...dude you screwed up real bad there. I'd be surprised if you don't get blocked for that, it most certainly was vandalism, and bad faith at that. Monkey...you should stay away from this debate, but apologize first. DoomsDay349 23:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
            • (after 4 edit conflicts)I agree with you Night Gyr, not everyone in Esperanza would do, or even consider doing something like that. I think I can speak for everyone when I say it was a horrible action to take. It is totally detrimental to what we are trying to achive here. Thε Halo ^Θ 23:27, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Random section break

• Observation. This debate is taking a bad turn, because I'm seeing sensible non Esperanzans voting delete and fanatical Esperanzans making short statements that don't address the issue and are making a very poor case. If you want Esperanza to stay, do so with good faith and please, be sensible. A lot of people have done things, but Monkey was the worst, vandalism to this debate, in fact. Please, continue this vote in a calm and serious manner... if you keep going on like you are, you're just going to get Esperanza deleted that much faster. DoomsDay349 23:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I've tagged all the Esperanza subpages with the MfD template, as they seem to be nominated for deletion as well.--TBCΦtalk? 23:29, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. I have personally seen that Esperanza has a direct positive influence on the encyclopedia. Programs like the Stress Alerts and Admin Coaching have affected numerous people for the good. I would not be opposed to moving the Coffee Lounge (and the already-deleted games) elsewhere, but everything else should stay. Esperanza is in no way "cliquish". It is welcoming of everyone, though I can see how it might be viewed as "clubbish". In that case, join or don't join, it really doesn't matter. But for the people who are members, Esperanza is important. It is a major reason why I am still around, after all. --Fang Aili ^talk 23:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep all Esperanza related pages, except for the Coffee Lounge, which should be moved to another Wiki as mentioned above.--TBCΦtalk? 23:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - If it is going to die, let it die a natural death, otherwise, just leave these people alone. They actually aren't hurting anything. Much more benign than the CVU and that was kept. You'll never get consensus to delete it anyway. pschemp | talk 23:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

TeckWiz's 2nd Suggestion
Move to Userspace with a link someone in Esperanza

1. Things related to talking about non-encyclopidic stuff (like the Coffee Lounge)
2. Anything Associated w/ the Coffee Lounge (the games)

Keep in Esperanza

1. Things related to the encyclopedia (ex. ECOTM)
2. Things that help editors (ex. Admin Coaching, moral support)

editor review me!-TeckWiz^TalkContribs_{# of Edits} 23:36, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. If not for the massive support Esperanza provides, User:Editor at Large, User:Tachikoma, and many other valued contributors would have left Wikipedia because of stress. Esperanza is a great support mechanism. ~ crazytales_{(speak to me)} 23:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Man, i'm tired of this flavor of keep. If we gave every user a dollar if they stayed, we might get some editors to stay that way also. I'm not saying we shouldn't provide a kind and accessible environment for users to contribute, but we definitely shouldn't be keeping Esperanza because some people have stayed because of it. Esperanza violates the first pillar of WP:5P, most of it just isn't encyclopedic. People come to and leave wikipedia, thats life, and I think the swollen million plus userbase is gonna keep this place above the red well enough. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 23:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Consider that, although I don't know the stats exactly, most Wikipedians don't have many contribs. It's only a few small percentage that has hundreds of edits and contributes significantly. ~ crazytales_{Stalk me!} 00:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I don't know what good this will do, but I made a short statement that I used a while ago, it might help here.

I hear a lot about how Esperanza is a "stupid club", and it disturbs me. The very people who say this are those most in need of a sense of community. What people fail to understand constantly is that Wikipedia is more than your average encyclopedia; we are not a small, select group of stodgy experts. We are a massive, diverse, group of average people banded together for the common cause of bringing free information to the world. And, being average, ordinary people we have the need of support and companionship. True, such companionship could come from chat rooms, or even real people, and there's no reason why it shouldn't! But, having a fellow writer, a friend standing alongside you in the hope that this young, criticized, and in some cases, hated encyclopedia might usher in a knowledge revolution, to stand by you and give you their support could be a hundred times more relieving and powerful to a Wikipedian than any other type of support.

There it is...let's see how it goes. Another tidbit of mine, though I've slightly paraphrased it from the original posting: "There will come the day when we all stand together and say one of two things, either 'We worked together and we have succeeded' or 'We fought and we have failed'. Maybe my nuggets of wisdom will help out. DoomsDay349 23:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

*Keep This may not be of any encyclopedic benefit, but it is a social support network (of sorts). --SunStar Net 23:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• • You've just voted keep with a rationale for deletion next to it. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 23:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment, Night Gyr, true, that is a deletion rationale. I'm just keeping the status quo. --SunStar Net 23:46, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
• Esperanza inspired me to not vandalize anymore and to solve this in a sensible way. I read a bit of the Stress Busters page and decided that I could save Esperanza in a sensible way. I made a copy of Esperanza that's technically my subpage and no one cane delete that. And I'm sorry. -Monkey 13!!! 23:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Actually, user subpages are just as subject to policies and deletion as anything else. This wouldn't be much different if esperanza was entirely someone's user subpage, becuase you don't even WP:OWN your userpage. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 23:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Very Strong Keep per above. -AMK152 23:55, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Weak keep preserve status quo. --SunStar Net 23:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Why preserve the status quo? Like High School Musical says, ‘‘don't stick to the status quo!’’ (never thought I'd be quoting HSM...) ~ crazytales_{Stalk me!} 00:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
  • More concisely, WP:CCC. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 00:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
• KeepTo quote the great John McEnroe "You cannot be serious". I only joined a few days ago but I have always admired the social, supportive, and human nature of Esperanza. To keep I cite WP:IAR, and use it with the fact that such a large amount of WP editors aremembers of Esperanza and I always believe that to keep the community happy as a whole is more important than one editors bureaucratic power trip. †he Bread 23:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

So because everyone else is doing it? And I'm not sure what a large amount would be to you, but it is certainly less than 1% of users. I'm all for WP:IAR, but not in this case, as it violates other pillars in WP:5P, namely the 1st as most content just isn't encyclopedic. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 00:07, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I believe we're in the wrong venue for this. Since Esperanza is a project that involves many experienced users, the better place for this would be the village pump. We can't establish that it is ok for long-standing projects to be simply disbanded or deleted in some fashion like this. A discussion is a much better option, as opposed to a vote (don't deny it, there is discussion, but it all starts up with something like "delete" or "keep"). Note: This is not a opposition or endorsement of any of the sides in this. I'm simply suggesting that this isn't the way we should do things. -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk·Review Me!) 23:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Hi. It's interesting to read through this discussion not even a day after it's begun, and to see how everyone is feeling. I'm glad that so many people, both for keeping and deleting, have been respectful throughout this, as it certainly makes for a less-stressful situation. At the same time, I think that many editors, especially Esperanzians, could be a little bit more peaceful about this. We all have our own opinions about what should happen, but we should respect everyone else's opinions too, and listen to what is said.

I unequivocally think that Esperanza should be kept. However, that does not mean that I do not recognize problems within Esperanza, because I do. I recognize that the Coffee Lounge has grown from the small place that it was created as to a rather social entity that may in fact be taking away from the encyclopedia. And I don't think there's anything wrong with recognizing that Esperanza has problems too. I think that we should take up those problems, and fix them. Whether that be moving the coffee lounge, modifying it, or deleting it all together, there is surely a solution, and it should be taken care of.

I don't think that a solution is deleting all of Esperanza, for there are many things within Esperanza that really do benefit the encyclopedia. We can talk about the fact that having a community in turn helps the encyclopedia, but I know that many people find such a philosophy sub-par. And you know what? That's okay. I just want everyone to recognize that Esperanza does a lot of really great things for the encyclopedia. No where else to editors work together to keep people happy. And while being happy might not seem like such an important thing for an encyclopedia, think of how many people leave Wikipedia because they are dissatisfied by their experiences here. Whether it be how they were treated, the outcome of a discussion, or just the atmosphere, I'm pretty sure that all of us see valuable contributors leaving at an all-too-frequent pace. When Esperanza can help people to stick around and contribute to the encyclopedia, then we really are benefiting the encyclopedia. It's pretty awesome to have someone tell you that they decided to stay and keep editing Wikipedia because you gave them a word of support, or because you told them that things really aren't as bad as they seem.

If that still seems a bit too wishy-washy, there are many definite things that Esperanza does for the encyclopedia. Though it may not be widely known, Esperanza has been working on this for a while. It's been brought up many a time that we could do more for the encyclopedia. And every time it is brought up, no one every says "nah, that's not true", or "no, we don't need to help the encyclopedia". Every time it is brought up, Esperanza works together to focus more on the encyclopedia. We want to benefit the encyclopedia, because in the end, it's the encyclopedia that matters. Both directly and indirectly, we help the encyclopedia. All of the latest programs have been encyclopedia oriented. And even the hotly-debated admin coaching should be given credit. Isn't it good that if someone is going to put themselves up for an RfA, though should be well-acquainted with what it takes to be an admin? Doesn't helping future administrators learn what it takes benefit the encyclopedia? Doesn't collaborating together on articles, albeit a new program, help the encyclopedia? Doesn't explaining Wikipedia things in simpler terms help the encyclopedia? And back to my previous point, doesn't keeping editors relaxed and at Wikipedia help the encyclopedia? I'd say so.

Anyway, I'm sure by now you can tell that I want to keep Esperanza. Sure, it's separate programs could be separated, but what is the point of separating parts of a project with similar goals? Regardless of the outcome, I hope this doesn't create bad blood between editors, because that just hurts Wikipedia more. Thanks, as always, -- Natalya 00:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Muchly agreed, Natalya. I think people get the wrong image of Esperanza (you and I have been through this, but let the rest of them now, eh?). People see a bunch of users who are ignorant, arrogant, and who don't want to change. But you're right; every time, we have rolled with the punches and adjusted. Esperanza is undergoing reform, and I can only hope that when we come out of this we'll be able to fix Esperanza and bring a better image to Wikipedia.

But... and this applies to everyone not just Natalya, I don't think we've fathomed how hard this is going to be. From this moment on, Esperanza is faced with twenty times more obstacles than ever, assuming we survive this MFD. No longer can we be lax; no longer can we sleep. Attack will come from every side, adversity from all corners. We will have to completely and utterly change Esperanza...sometimes that is my greatest fear. That in changing ourselves, we may destroy ourselves. But without the change we are guaranteed destruction; with it, there is a light of hope. I don't know what these changes are, but know this; we'll need them, and we'll need them bad.

But that is neither here nor there. I have rambled long enough; we have the MFD to get through. DoomsDay349 00:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep WP:IAR. Esperanza might have a few issues that go against some policies, but it's beneficial for the project. Myself, I like to check what is Esperanza up to every now and then, it surely breaks the routine of editing Wikipedia. Furthermore, I acknowledge and praise the objectives of Esperanza in fostering a sense of community which I believe is vital for the project.--Húsönd 00:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Ignore all rules is great, but it also violates the first pillar, 'wikipedia is an encyclopedia' - and esperanza for the most part is just not encyclopedic (and no one is arguing against this, the scary part...). Community on wikipedia will be fine without Esperanza (it has before), and can do so in an encyclopedic manner (Wikiprojects/portals). JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 00:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

You continue to say, for the most part etc, which means you agree that some (even a tiny bit) of esperanza is for the encyclopedia (also no one is argueing that), so why not delete the bad, keep the good? Thε Halo ^Θ 00:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Whatever might be salvagable in maybe COTM or week or whatever, there is nothing difficult about starting it from the ashes. Its a small element of a whole lotta unencyclopedic stuff. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 00:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

And Joe, there are aguments, just above here..scan the page. And I might add that you continually use the same argument; Violation of 1st pillar. I also noticed you haven't combatted any of my statements...hmm... DoomsDay349 00:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Dude, this thing is massively long; i'm only one man, sorry i didn't respond to any of your stuff. anyways, before i read some of these essay-like comments let me just say that i continually use violation of the 1st pillar because it is a really friggin significant one, ya know? and it does. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 00:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Random section break

• Strong keep - New users constantly come to the Esperanza talk page and welcome themselves; they feel more connected to the community because of this, and many continue editing after that. —Mets501 (talk) 00:14, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

New users can come to connect and talk with experienced users without Esperanza. It is not vital for this process. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 00:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Not vital, not vital, not vital! That is all I'm hearing! Who cares if it's not vital? Your legs aren't vital for your survival, but I bet they help out a good bit. Cutting Esperanza would be like removing a leg. DoomsDay349 00:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. The fact is, we are not a normal encyclopedia. We are not Encarta, or the Encyclopaedia Britannica, in which a group of experts corresponds with each other. Rather, this encyclopedia is made up of more than a million users, all of which come from all over the globe. Unless there is some sort of organization or something of the sort to prompt others to get together, users will not spontaneously work together. Esperanza is not just a frivolous society, it is comprised of the heart of Wikipedia. Here, commited users may collaborate and basically let their Wikistress off for a second. Not every user is some geek who spends all their time on Wikipedia for the sole purpose of editing articles. Rather, it is this sense of community that continues to bring users back to Wikipedia. With all due respect to Elaragirl, haven't you listed enough for deletion? bibliomaniac15 Review? 00:28, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• • Selective delete. I'm not in favour of blanket deletions at the best of times and I can't support the deletion of Esperanza in its entirity. As with gardening, occasionally there is the need to prune. Wikipedia isn't supposed to be a lark but some parts of Esperanza are beneficial, such as admin coaching. Delete the chaff but make sure not to lose any wheat. Mallanox 00:21, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. I understood deleting the games, but this absolutely must remain. I have no second thoughts about voicing this opinion. -- ßottesiηi ^(talk) 00:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC)