Talk:Fascism

Substantial change to definition lacks RS

For years the treatment of "right wing" and "fascism" has been neutral in this article. The last sentence of the first para of the Lede had:

Fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.

Within the past month, the Lede was changed without any additional/new WP:RS so the the first sentence reads:

Fascism is a form of radical, right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism, characterized by...

Prior to February 24, the Lede read:

Fascism is a form of radical authoritarian ultranationalism, characterized by..."

Merriam dictionary is used as RS but it does not support our treatment of the term: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Changes:

• @Wolfdog: first made this change with the edit summary We need "right-wing" or "far-right" immediately in the lead sentence, otherwise the sentence can easily apply even to ideologies like Stalinism

• I attempted to address his concerns yet keep within NPOV and RS restrictions by making change (moving the final sentence about "traditional left-right spectrum" to the top).

• @Beyond My Ken: reerted my edit with the summary: It's not more neutral, it's simplyu more mealy-mouth. The consensus of historiand and political science place Fascism on the far-gith, and underplaying it is not an improvement ot the article

Again, no new RS was added to make this amendment to the definition of fascism. The article's definition remained stable for years with the previous, neutral wording.

I'd like to see the direct quotations from RS that supports this change, not just a claim that "everyone says so". petrarchan47คุก 19:30, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Are you disputing that Fascism is right wing? Simonm223 (talk) 19:32, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Are you claiming that my comment is unclear? petrarchan47คุก 19:34, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes actually. You are asserting that calling fascism right-wing in the first para of the lede is not neutral. Why? Simonm223 (talk) 19:50, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support the current lede sentence and oppose removing "right-wing".
  My statement above is accurate, the consensus of historians and political scientists is that Fascism is on the right wing. In addition, not one single person who has asked that "right-wing" be changed to "left-wing" has ever presented even one reliable source to support that proposition. The only sources ever provided have been non-neutral right-wing sources. This is completely a non-issue. Petrachan47 and every other Wikipedia is free to believe whatever patent nonsense they wish to believe, but what goes in the article are statements reported by reliable sources which show the consensus view of experts, and that is the case here and now. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:52, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

My question is whether RS supports this change, and since no RS has been added or cited, it appears to me that the change was made based on personal opinions alone. Please show the RS used to make the change. petrarchan47คุก 19:48, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

The sources for this already in the article. Which of them do you object to? --Aquillion (talk) 21:08, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

RfC: Should "right wing" be added to definition of fascism

Do reliable sources support a change to the definition of Fascism so that "right wing" is added to the first sentence of the Lede? petrarchan47คุก 20:37, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Brief history:

Mention of "right wing" in the Lede was for years situated only at the bottom of the first paragraph:

In 2014 it read

Although fascism is often placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum, several academics have said that the description is inadequate.

Without changing or removing sources, in 2015 it was amended

Fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.

This version remained stable until February 2019, when in addition to the "left-right spectrum" sentence, the primary definition (first sentence of Lede) changed from

Fascism is a form of radical authoritarian ultranationalism, characterized by...

to

Fascism is a form of radical, right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism, characterized by...

Related discussion:

• Substantial change to definition lacks RS

Discussion

• Comment I can't support this change until WP:RS is shown to support it. This addition represents a substantial change to the definition of "fascism" and to longstanding Lede section; input from the wider community seems desirable. petrarchan47คุก 20:55, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
  • As many people have already explained to you, sources are already present in the lead and throughout the relevant section of the article. Which of them do you object to? --Aquillion (talk) 21:10, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Aquillion, substantial changes to the Pedia, especially when it's to the Lede which represents a definition of a word, and when we have Google picking up our definition and adopting it as their own, needs to be supported by RS. The change should have been accompanied by a justification that includes RS and specifies the text within it that was used to make this change -- a change which diverges from other dictionary references and from our own longstanding Lede. Unless RS is shown, this change cannot be supported according to our own guidelines. petrarchan47คุก 21:07, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

So the essence of your complaint is that the fact that you have to look past the first paragraph of the lede for the many many many many RSes already there supporting that statement that literally no non-WP:FRINGE source disputes is a deal-breaker? That's some good WP:WIKILAWYERING right there. I suggest you back away from the WP:DEADHORSE. Simonm223 (talk) 21:13, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support mention in first sentence of lead. The sources support the idea that Fascism is practically the textbook definition of a far-right movement, to the point where the terms are sometimes used interchangeably, and that this is one of its defining features; furthermore, this characterization is necessary to understand both discussions of Fascism and the modern understanding of the left / right spectrum in general. --Aquillion (talk) 20:54, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm hoping for actual quotations, specific RS. A few examples would be helpful. petrarchan47คุก 20:56, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

The purpose of and RfC is to get the comments of other editors, which is what you're getting, not for other people to do your research for you. I challenge you to provide even a single citation from a reliable source which supports "eft-wing." Until you do, I predict there is not going to be a change made here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:00, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

You're misrepresenting me. I asked Do reliable sources support a change to the definition of Fascism so that "right wing" is added to the first sentence of the Lede?. The person who makes a change to the encyclopedia is responsible for the supporting RS. This change was made without adding RS or explaining how existing RS was being read differently to justify this change. I don't need to provide RS as I am not suggesting a change. I'm saying that editors need to follow the PAGs and they haven't been in this case. petrarchan47คุก 20:56, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

• I suggest reviewing the sources already in the article, which are unequivocal. In any case, an RFC is not the appropriate place for drawn-out discussions - Fascism's identity on the right of the political spectrum is perhaps the most well-cited part of the entire article, and is such a basic part of the topic that failing to understand it implies a complete refusal to read any reliable sources on it at all before contributing (let alone the numerous ones already cited in the article.) I understand your concern that it was previously worded more cautiously, but that caution did not reflect the unified and unequivocal nature of the best sources, and therefore violated the WP:NPOV requirement to avoid stating facts as opinions. --Aquillion (talk) 21:04, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support per Aquillon, my comments above, and the consensus opinion of anyone who knows anything about the subject. BTW, the RfC is malformed: "right-wing" is in the lede currently, so the question should be whether it should be removed or not. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:00, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Scanning through sources, it would be inappropriate to use exclusively right-wing, as there is discussion of left-wing fascism. It is fair to say fascism is frequently from the right-wing, but left-wing fascism as a concept certainly exists in sources, at least, those sources that are fully appropriate as RSOPINION ones. --Masem (t) 21:10, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment Left-wing fascism has been used for fascist-like elements in nominally leftist regimes. The cited examples are the regimes of Juan Perón and Getúlio Vargas. As an ideology, Peronism mainly appeals to the working-classes, with promises of "social justice, economic independence and political sovereignty". But it is strictly authoritarian and nationalist in nature. Dimadick (talk) 17:33, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
    • Comment As I mentioned below, the idea of Fascism as not-inherently-right-wing is derived from Third Position rhetoric, which is best described as a WP:FRINGE political belief. As Peron was actually one of the original proponents of this fringe political system we don't need to give that idea WP:UNDUE credence per WP:FRINGE. Simonm223 (talk) 17:46, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• More work to be done before this can be answered. In the meantime, oppose. The third sentence of the lead reads: "[F]ascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum," citing six sources not readily available on the Web. But in the "Definitions" section we have, "Most scholars place fascism on the far right of the political spectrum," citing the exact same sources. These two statements are mutually exclusive from a neutrality perspective. Either all non-fringe sources support the contention, in which case the first statement is a neutral summary, or only most of non-fringe sources support the contention, in which the second statement is a neutral summary. Someone needs to go through the sources cited in this article and answer the question, are there any non-fringe sources that say that fascism is not placed on the far right? Until that work is completed, I support the last stable version. By that logic, assuming petrachan47's timeline is accurate, I oppose this change. R2 (bleep) 21:48, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
• Comment - fascism is hard to define but I wouldn't permanently place it as a right-wing ideology. The most prominent personalities of Fascism such as Mussolini (the originator) and Hitler, arise actually from a National Socialism bent and that's why the debates. "Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state" - Benito Mussolini. Just my 2 cents.GizzyCatBella (talk) 01:10, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support — from the OED, Definition A: "A nationalist political movement that controlled the government of Italy from 1922 to 1943 under the leadership of Benito Mussolini (1883–1945)... The movement grew out of the nationalist fasci which became prominent at the end of the First World War (1914–18), esp. with the formation of the militantly anti-communist and anti-socialist Fasci di Combattimento by Mussolini in 1919." Definition B: "An authoritarian and nationalistic system of government and social organization which emerged after the end of the First World War in 1918, and became a prominent force in European politics during the 1920s and 1930s, most notably in Italy and Germany; (later also) an extreme right-wing political ideology based on the principles underlying this system... Fascism originated in Italy as an anti-communist and nationalist movement... After the defeat of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy in the Second World War (1939–45), Fascism ceased to be a significant political force, although subsequently (chiefly from the 1970s) a number of extreme right-wing nationalist parties have been founded in Europe and elsewhere on similar principles." -Darouet (talk) 01:33, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support characterization as right-wing I don't think I've seen any serious scholarship characterize fascism as anything other than right-wing, and usage of "far-right" through most of the years since WWII has been close to synonymous with "neo-fascist"—fascism was essentially the defining example of the far right. National Socialism might've started out as a broad-based populist movement, but all the leftists and socialists were either murdered or purged by the time Hitler took power, leaving only the conservatives, reactionaries, and far right. I know less about fascism in Italy, but I think things were similar there, if less extreme. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 01:39, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Comment I think the definition sentence needs a total re-write. The problem is that it paraphrases the so-called "consensus theory" of fascism, without accepting that other definitions exist. I would prefer a description instead. "Fascist is a right-wing ideology and political movement originally developed by Mussolini in Italy that came to dominate Europe until its defeat in the Second World War. In recent years, a growing consensus has developed for its definition as...." TFD (talk) 03:58, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support. Honestly, I would find any source that does not agree with this to be questionable at best. However, I am not opposed to including a footnote clarifying that there is a vocal minority whom oppose the view that fascism can be viewed on a singlar right-left spectrum. (edit conflict) –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 04:02, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support. RS have a consensus on fascism="right-wing" . the "left wing fascism is a recent fringe position (coming from right-wing commentators) with no support from experts. Mussolini quit the socialists, rejected the left ideology and put its leaders in prison or exile. Hitler's "national socialism" was not rooted in Marxism. He imprisoned, exiled or killed all the socialist leaders. Rjensen (talk) 07:34, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support per, well, almost everyone above. Maybe a mention of the fringe theory, that needs further discussion. And perhaps we need to ensure that the point that User:Rjensen makes is also made in the article. I think it was only yesterday I reverted an IP whose argument was that the Nazis were socialist because the word socialist was in the party name. Doug Weller talk 11:04, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support per what every reliable source says. // Liftarn (talk) 14:28, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support Characterizations of Fascism as anything other than right wing are ultimately derived from third positionist arguments that, as such, fail WP:FRINGE and WP:NPOV considerations. Simonm223 (talk) 16:23, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support It is a defining characteristic of Fascism. The sources agree well enough for this to be the overwhelming consensus view. (The thing called "left wing fascism", insofar as it is a real thing at all, is something else entirely.) The nuances are described later on in the article but this is not a murder-mystery novel where key facts are slowly revealed throughout the text. The first paragraph needs to provide the key identifying information upfront and this falls into that category. --DanielRigal (talk) 17:34, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support - long overdue; possibly the most heavily-cited fact in the entire article, due to the continuing effort by right-wing sources to deny it. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:06, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support - It always baffled me that this ever lacked something about the right wing in the lead sentence and whenever it was brought to discussion, there was always overwhelming agreement from editors. The right-wing nature of fascism is inherent to its definition, otherwise the first sentence could easily apply to Communist or other left-wing authoritarian philosophies, e.g. Stalinism. Wolfdog (talk) 23:44, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose - controversial articles require strict adherence to NPOV, and I'm concerned we haven't met that requirement. Fascism is too complex to simply say either the left or right own it. Also, without access to the cited books, it is difficult to satisfy WP:V. The article Left-wing fascism also has issues much the same as here. "Live Science" article "What is Fascism?" presents opposing views as does the following article in Vox which presents fascism in the modern world by Yale philosopher Jason Stanley. Another Vox article presents views of 5 fascism experts. There are equally as many or more secondary, third party and academic sources that dispute the fascist labeling presented in both WP articles. Potential RS include "Fascism: Comparison and Definition" (ISBN-13: 978-0299080648) and "A History of Fascism, 1914–1945" (ISBN-13: 978-0299148744), University of Wisconsin Press, author Stanley Payne; "The Nature of Fascism", Routledge, author Roger Griffin (ISBN-13: 978-0415096614). ^{Atsme✍🏻📧} 03:28, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

when you cite sources, read them closely. For example you cite "Live Science" and it rejects the one author who opposes use of left-right. Then Yale scholar Jason Stanley. is cited. He says in that cite: I think it’s clearly right-wing....fascism tilts pretty heavily to the right in my view. "Vox" is cited a second time but the article states: I found wide agreement among scholars that Golden Dawn, the far-right party in Greece that draws direct inspiration from the Nazis, is fairly described as fascist. Rjensen (talk) 17:36, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

When an author says, I think and in my view, we do not state it as fact in WikiVoice, rather we use intext attribution cited to the author. There are different scholarly views and it is our job as editors to include those views per NPOV. According to what this RfC stated, the material changes longstanding stable material, and it has been challenged as violative of NPOV. To incorrectly state as fact that nearly half the US population are fascists in WikiVoice is not good for the project. ^Atsme 📣 📧 12:37, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

"To incorrectly state as fact that nearly half the US population are fascists in WikiVoice is not good for the project." Where is anyone suggesting or even hinting at that? By saying fascism is a right wing ideology, no one calls anyone anything. No one is even implying that anyone right of center is a fascist. Just that the ideology itself is on the (far) right wing of the (flawed) left-right scale. And that is the overwhelming consensus among sources as well. Or am i somehow misunderstanding what you meant by that? I mean, saying communism is on the (far) left wing does not make the other half communists either. 91.248.142.3 (talk) 13:39, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support This is a given. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 09:38, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support, as this is the consensus of RS (and so verifiable and due), including those this article already cites. (I second Beyond My Ken's note that this RFC was a bit misleadingly written, in that it presented "right-wing" as an addition, but "right-wing" was already the description used in the lead, and it is the OP's proposal that it should perhaps be removed which would need consensus.) -sche (talk) 16:45, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Comment To clarify, OP does not propose that it be removed from the lead entirely only that it be removed from the first sentence ("definition"), which restore the article to the version which had been the consensus up until about a month ago, when "right-wing" was added to the first sentence.--MattMauler (talk) 18:08, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support, per WP:DUE. Should really be "far right". --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:04, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
• Just follow WP:NPOV. Most, but not all, RS describe fascism as far-right. A minority describe it as left-wing or far-left. Here is the policy:Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts. If different reliable sources make conflicting assertions about a matter, treat these assertions as opinions rather than facts, and do not present them as direct statements.Adoring nanny (talk) 11:01, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Are there really WP:RSs that claim that fascism is on the left, or WP:FRINGE sources? That's often the case when a minority of sources claim the complete opposite of the majority. Ian.thomson (talk) 12:24, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Ian, your question is answered here, and in multiple scholarly sources. ^{Adding academic text13:24, 9 March 2019 (UTC) Atsme} 📣 📧 12:42, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: Been lurking, but I'll weigh in: I absolutely agree that fascism should be described as right-wing. Whether this means that that characterization should appear in the very first sentence or later in the lead I see as far less important (which is why I'm not a clear "support" or "oppose" vote for the current discussion). I think the 2014 wording above in the timeline that OP provided would be unacceptable, injecting unnecessary ambiguity not reflective of RS, which overwhelmingly describe fascism as right-wing. Either one of the last two versions would be acceptable, I think.--MattMauler (talk) 13:08, 9 March 2019 (UTC)