Talk:2019 Venezuelan uprising attempt

POV title

The title of the article (2019 Venezuela coup attempt) is POV and fails to account for the Constitution of Venezuela. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:54, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: I am not sure if it is a rebellion, revolt or coup d'état. Would really benefit us if we had some other eyes looking at this. The correct terminology, especially in regards to NPOV, is difficult to find.----ZiaLater (talk) 17:12, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Uprising would have been a starting place, but yes, it is hard to find the right term. But Coup isn't it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:14, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: It fits the textbook definition of a coup attempt (a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group). Almost every coup has some democratic pretense, they should still be called what they are.Zellfire999 (talk) 17:29, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

References

The problems are in the definition of "existing government", half of the world says that is Maduro's, half says Guiado's. Neither is this "sudden"; it is part of a process that has been called for according to the Constitution of Venezuela for months. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:33, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

For example: Look at the sources in the article now: while a few predictable English-language sources call it a "coup", many do not (calling it instead an "uprising"). A google search reveals that, predictably, Cuban, Russian and Venezuelan-state owned media (like Telesur) and chavistas like Eva Golinger are calling it a coup. But, looking at Spanish-language sources (where there is perhaps a better understanding of the political dynamic), El Pais (Spain), Tiempo (Colombia), and La Nacion (Argentina), along with many English-language sources, refer to it as an "uprising". This may be a WP:GLOBAL issue, where Wikipedia might want to respect some local sources and avoid gringification. Arab Spring is referred to as an uprising, not a coup; there is kind of a predisposition that exists about Latin American politics. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:08, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

"Coup"? When Guairó is recognized by most nations and international organizations as the legitimate president of Venezuela.--SirEdimon (talk) 18:59, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Recognition of a coup leader by some external powers (US government and its allies (i.e. "most nations and international organizations" from US-centric/West-centric POV) in this case) has no relevance in determining whether the event is a coup. It only matters whether there is an active ongoing attempt to overthrow a government, regardless of the perceived legitimacy of that government and this is clearly the case here. Therefore, not calling it a coup would be extremely POV (although it would be a mainstream and a popular POV in The West, but still a POV). 109.60.38.128 (talk) 19:32, 30 April 2019 (UTC) — 109.60.38.128 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

First, Guaidó is recognized by almost all the important and democratic countries in the world and for important international organizations like the European Parliament and the Organization of American States. The only two important countries that recognize Maduro are Russia and China (non-democratic countries known for support dictators around the world). Second, there is not "ongoing attempt to overthrow a government" because the Venezuelan internationality recognized government is formed by Guaidó and the National Assembly.--SirEdimon (talk) 20:31, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

A government is a government if it governs the country, regardless of its international recognition. An attempt to overthrow it, even if supported by the entire rest of the world, is still a coup attempt. 109.60.38.128 (talk) 21:00, 30 April 2019 (UTC) — 109.60.38.128 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Arab Spring uses the word coup only twice. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:54, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

• Sources like Bloomberg are avoiding calling this a coup: [1][2]. --MaoGo (talk) 20:28, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

• CNN backtracked using "coup" in their coverage as well. Title was changed in the article.----ZiaLater (talk) 20:30, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Given that Guaido’s recognized as Acting President by 50+ countries, something like “(April) 2019 Venezuelan clashes” seems to be the most neutral title to me. However, the title should depend on what reliable sources are calling it. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 20:52, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Most Spanish sources (and many English sources) are calling it an uprising. April 2019 Venezuela uprising works for me, as there may be others. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:02, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

BobNesh, that was a very disruptive thing to do, particularly when you did not engage the discussion, and did not apparently even read it. Moving a move over a redirect leaves a mess, and there was consensus. I hope you don't always edit that way; discussion on talk is always nice. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:25, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @BobNesh: There were nationwide protests, in every state. The defector soldiers didn't attempt to take over any government or power institutions, unlike previous coup attempts in Venezuela, were the presidential palace, the National Assembly or the state television channel. During the first classes the soldiers stayed in Altamira, and Guaidó made an enphasis to summon protests and to engage in non violent means. In Portuguese Wikipedia has called this an uprising, and the Spanish Wikipedia calls the article Operación Libertad. Calling the events a coup is for political means. --Jamez42 (talk) 21:25, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

I support reverting BobNesh move. They cannot move article as they want. This is disruptive and pure vandalism. BobNesh is pushing their POV.--SirEdimon (talk) 21:28, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

We can't just revert it; we need an admin. That's why it is a very disruptive thing to do. Now we have to round up someone who will correct the move, and probably request semi-protection. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:33, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

I have read the discussion. Consensus on moving the page hasn't been reached. Sorry. BobNesh (talk) 21:35, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

So you just moved it again, without discussing on talk. How collegial. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:37, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

How was a move revert by BobNesh disruptive, while initial move, which was (also) without consensus, wasn't disruptive? Double standards much? 109.60.38.128 (talk) 21:50, 30 April 2019 (UTC) — 109.60.38.128 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

(edit conflict) I cannot for the life of me understand how this is not a coup. A military plot took place and elements of the army rose up rationally in order to overthrow the established government, it's a classic coup d'etat. Even if you accept the illogical position that Guaido is the president(he is clearly not in power) then at least he is conducting an auto-coup. That news agencies stopped calling this coup a coup was clearly because of political pressure. As it stands now the title and the article in general are extremely biased. Red Greek Revolution (talk) 22:47, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Most sources aren't calling it a coup, whether US or international (Maduro allies like Russia and Cuba do call it a coup). And saying that there was "an overthrow of an established government" implies that Maduro's is the legitimate established government; the alternate and widely held view is that he has illegitimately usurped power, and Guaido is restoring constitutional order. Most sources seem to be going with that. Do you really think Trump can exert political pressure on the US media <smile>? They don't much care for him you know :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:52, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Whether Maduro is the "legitimate" president bears no weight in whether this is a coup. He is the president for all practical purposes as far as the Venezuelan state machinery goes the attempt of military cliques to overthrow him is a coup. And yes the USA definitely cares about Venezuela otherwise they wouldn't try to form a coalition to invade it. News media did initially call it a coup but after political pressure they changed it to "uprising" so pretty much the same as it happened on here. Red Greek Revolution (talk) 02:30, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

I understand that the operation is called "Operation Liberty". We may use that as an article name. Cambalachero (talk) 22:26, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

I saw the name mentioned in a few sources. However, it seems to be Guaido's name for the event, and I am in favor of the current article title. SamHolt6 (talk) 22:39, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, a military operation whose name is the name given by those who carried it out. Isn't that a standard? Operation Overlord was named so by the Allies, and nobody has a problem with that. Cambalachero (talk) 23:20, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

I would contend that it’s best to hold off on assigning a particular name to this event. It will likely become clearer as events proceed; I seem to recall 2018 Armenian revolution going through different names before a final one was decided upon. For now, let’s stick to the most neutral and frankly nondescript wording, because it is eminently unclear what is actually going on. Cwilson97 (talk) 00:51, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Any title is POV. "Coup" favours Madura; "uprising" (implying a popular movement) favours Guaido. "Operation Liberty" is even more pro-Guaido.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:20, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

There were nationwide protests, and I would dare to say that most of the clashes happened during protests. I would agree that Operation Liberty could be problematic, although it could be a redirect. --Jamez42 (talk) 10:50, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

The problem with Operation Liberty is that it reaches back in time to the blackouts like here Operation Freedom, but that can be added. By the way, how did we decide between "Freedom" and "Liberty"? --MaoGo (talk) 18:39, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

It's a coup

The arguments utilized to say it's not a coup is very weak, coup is not defined properly by your legitimacy, but for the circumstances that it's happen. For example, in Brazil November 11 1955, the congress don't want pass the power to the elected president Juscelino Kubitschek with the excuses they are fulfilling a constitutional right, to ensure that elections should be accomplished, Henrique Teixeira Lott make a preventive coup to assures the democracy. The meaning of coup is the overthrow of an existing government by a group of bureaucrats, military or others political groups of a external faction without or little participation of a population. This uprising of part of military has these characteristics, they started with a Guaidó and Leopoldo López making a periscope video in carlota air base, starting from military and a politician and not from the people.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.54.122.55 (talk) 09:35, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

• Our own article says the term "typically...refers to an illegal, unconstitutional seizure of power." Words are meant to communicate ideas. A reasonable reader could interpret this as the uprising being illegal and unconstitutional, when a strong case could be made this is a response to Maduro's "illegal, unconstitutional seizure of power." We should not use WP's voice to take sides. GreatCaesarsGhost 11:14, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
• Calling this an "uprising" is taking sides. Maduro won that sham election, the POV warriors are out in force. --LaserLegs (talk) 12:04, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

As I have stated before, I think the main issue with naming the event as a coup is the nature of the events. While legitimacy of the movement has been argued, it has also been explained on how no attempt of a violent and sudden seizure of power was attempted. --Jamez42 (talk) 12:57, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Right, also known as a coup. Who renamed this article? How did it not go through a vote? --LaserLegs (talk) 14:28, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

As explained by IP 109.60.38.128 and 177.54.122.55 this is a coup. Maduro has so far remained in control of most of all key areas of the state aparatus, so he still have control of the largest share of the state and has thus a government. Guaidó tried to oust Maduro from his position of power, so its a coup. Appartently somebody changed the name of the page to "uprising" wihtout any consensus. Dentren | ^Talk 16:38, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

• It's unquestionably a coup. Maduro de facto controls the country, who the US and its allies recognize is not relevant (if Mao had been deposed in a coup in the 50s would it have not been a coup just because the West recognized the ROC?) It's a call by an authority figure with foreign backing for an armed rebellion against a sitting head of state. That's a coup, period. The title needs to be changed back. Zellfire999 (talk) 18:58, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

• Financial Times calls it a coup attempt https://www.ft.com/content/757eafca-6b9f-11e9-80c7-60ee53e6681d Right, you may call the media that describe this as a coup as unreliable, Russophile, communist, chavist, Maduro loving or else, but I wonder if FT is in your blacklist too 92.56.37.129 (talk) 20:22, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

I would agree that it seems like a coup attempt.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:33, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Not a coup, call it clashes

@Blaylockjam10: This suggestion is the best, calling it clashes is the most NPOV solution to this. All the arguments for calling it a coup (or uprising for that matter) don't even work for the so-called, academic-wannabe definitions of "coup" given and at any rate is just shitty, mediocre dog whistling. Syopsis (talk) 09:20, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Rebels

OK, who keeps changing "ran over civilians" to the POV "ran over rebels", and what is that about? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:03, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

APC

Someone keeps changing tank to APC: is a ballena an APC? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:04, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: its blatant OR on my part, but the vehicle seen in the widely-publicized video is an APC, not a tank. Maybe describing it as an armored vehicle is best, as the term describes both tanks and APCs. SamHolt6 (talk) 19:37, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Sam ... could you make the adjustment? I don't really know the correct term. Armored vehicle might cover it ... I am struggling to get through sources so I can actually add some content! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:40, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Added.--SamHolt6 (talk) 20:01, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

For the record, water cannons in Venezuela are called colloquially ballenas (whale in Spanish), just like the armoured vehicles are called "rhinos". --Jamez42 (talk) 10:53, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Check ?

Did I hear this right? If so, can be added under Events: SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:56, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Defections

United States National Security Adviser John R. Bolton stated in a press conference that Defense Minister Vladimir Padrino, Supreme Court justice Maikel Moreno, and the head of Maduro's PresidentialGuard, Iván Hernández Dala, had agreed that Maduro needed to go.

References

This seems to shed some light on that, and there's lots of info in this source that can be added. https://www.dw.com/en/venezuela-coup-or-uprising-it-depends-on-who-you-support/a-48555362 SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:05, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Saved by an IP

Oh my,[3] that was quite a mistake. Saved by an IP, and no way to thank them![4] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:21, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Ongoing

Should we add the article to the Main Page's Ongoing Section? Emperor Anzong of Song or The Huangdi of Song China (talk) 22:13, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

There is an ongoing discussion Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates#2019 Venezuela coup attempt. But have in mind that "being in the news" is not enough for inclusion (there are hundreds of things in the news, all the time). Many users prefer to wait until we have a clear picture of how does this turn out. You can join the discussion, but provide strong reasons. Cambalachero (talk) 23:35, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Should we add injured to infobox?

And if so, the BBC currently lists it as 69 Kingsif (talk) 22:40, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Should we delete the infobox entirely, so we don't have to have this conversation about infobox bloat :) :) The BBC 69 is in the article already. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:56, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Dumbass ridiculous stupid infoboxes just make work. Especially when people drive by and stick stuff in there that needs to be fixed, and don't update the article. Why exactly do we need to create double work with infobox bloat? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:38, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Disinformation

A hilariously biased article on Venezuela yet again. I expect no less from Wikipedia. If the opposition were as good at contesting elections as they are at spreading disinformation, there would be no need for a coup. 78.144.216.235 (talk) 00:11, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Have you a reliable source you would like included? Please see WP:V and WP:RS; otherwise, WP:NOTAFORUM may help. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:17, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

"But I know the truth!" 84percent (talk) 01:01, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Maduro denial, Washington Post

Folks, please keep in mind that the Washington Post is paywalled, and most cannot access it. (Meaning if you stick an unformatted citation to the Washington Post saying someone died in the infobox, not everyone can clean up the mess.) This source has been added to the article, but I can't read it, and according to the title, we need to add Maduro's denial to Pompeo's statement. Might someone please do that ? If you can add his denial, just use ref name= MaduroDenies/ because it is already in the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:35, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

• ref name=MaduroDenies
  • Zuñiga, Mariana (30 April 2019). "Venezuela's Maduro denies Pompeo's claim that he sought to escape to Cuba after day of clashes that left 1 dead, dozens hurt". The Washington Post. Retrieved 30 April 2019.

Just FYI: If you hit the X button next to the URL as soon as the article text appears (you do need to be quick) you can read the article without giving the site the chance to load the "PLEASE INSERT PAYMENT TO READ DEMOCRACY NOT DYING IN DARKNESS" element that would normally cover it. 199.247.45.42 (talk) 07:04, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

IT works! Thank you, 199; I wasn't even able to get at the titles for looking up articles on ProQuest. (I bet they'll close that loop soon, though.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:43, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

A timeline

Here is an graphic timeline from Efecto Cocuyo [5]. --MaoGo (talk) 10:40, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

If it helps, El Pitazo made a summary of yesterday events' and the factchecking site Verifikado has a timeline. However, Efecto Cocuyo's infographic is very complete. --Jamez42 (talk) 11:00, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Background

Need a background section summarizing the 2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis.----ZiaLater (talk) 12:50, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Excess images, gynormous infobox, and poor image quality

Five images in the infobox result in poor quality. The infobox is (per usual) too large and taking over the article. Add to that the imposition of too many other images in the article, and we end up with text sandwiching (MOS:IMAGES), along with images/infobox overwhelming the text. We do aim for encyclopedic content that people can read. My suggestion is to reduce the number of images in the infobox from five to three, so that there will be space to add back some images in the body of the article if desired, but please do so in a way that text is not squeezed.

Independently, the usual amount of infobox bloat ... adding a "result" based on what one person "claims" is just silly. The "result" of an uprising is not something that can be summarized in one parameter. How about the result that Lopez is out from under house arrest, for example? How about the result that Maduro's head of intelligence defected? We are to suppose there is a "result" to a complex event because Wikipedia can come out with one word ??SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:51, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: I slimmed it down some. I guess others can decide which images to include in the infobox. Usually as the sections increase and there is more of a background, infoboxes don't take up as much room. I mean, we could always try to make the infobox like International military intervention against ISIL...----ZiaLater (talk) 13:00, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Infoboxes suck :) Sorry for going through so fast, I have an app't later. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:33, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Moved to talk to be fixed

I don't know what this is, it is unsourced, I can't find a source, and I can't even tell what it means: SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:33, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

• On 30 April, the Permanent Mission of Venezuela to the OPCW, ICC and other International Organisations and Courts based in The Hague, on behalf of the Venezuelan government asked all member states of the United Nations and the international community to condemn "this despicable attack against the democracy and constitutional order and defend the principles of the United Nations Charter, international law as well as rule of law".

Apparently (possibly?) a primary source unpublished by secondary sources; I have asked the OP on user talk to please engage article talk so we can sort this.[6] Unpublished primary source = likely UNDUE. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:46, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

More here: if the sourcing is sorted, the writing should be addressed if it is re-introduced. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:48, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

• The Minister of People's Power for the Defense and the military high command of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela reported that the Bolivarian National Armed Force would stand firm "in defense of the Constitution and its legitimate authorities".

Note for the OP, quotes are not italicized on Wikipedia. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:49, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

References

You just had to be patient. But it is a subtle diplomatic request to other states not to interfere. GentleDjinn (talk) 13:45, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

I really hope this is not considered an ad hominem argument, but I think it's important to note that said representative is Haifa El Aissami, sister of Tareck El Aissami. Is this report available online? --Jamez42 (talk) 13:52, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Said representative is indeed Haifa El Aissami, but I am not aware of her family relationships. A note verbale is a diplomatic letter, in this case to a large number of embassies and a number of international organisations, including the International Criminal Court. But the text is not unintelligible but just diplomatic.

I see there exists a source about the family relationship: http://www.el-nacional.com/noticias/columnista/extrano-caso-cpi-hermana-aissami_187633 GentleDjinn (talk) 13:56, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Of course. What I mean is that if this note is available on the Internet or for public access. --Jamez42 (talk) 14:02, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Again, sorry for being in a hurry this morning, as I have an app't and wanted to get through the whole article. But a primary source, unpublished and unreviewed by secondary sources, is UNDUE in this case. If major news outlets cover this, it can be added. Also, GentleDjinn, if it is unpublished publicly, that raises a concern about WP:COI. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:06, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

I do not understand what means "unpublished publicly" but, except for my contribution to this page, I am completetely uninvolved with the so called Bolivarian State of Venezuela, or any other state in South America for that matter.GentleDjinn (talk) 16:51, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Infobox. Again.

@José A. VEN:, regarding this edit, first, we do not name something by its Spanish name on English Wikipedia. Second, there is consensus on this article to call it "uprising" not Operation Liberty. Please discuss. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:23, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

POV title duplicates

Uprising vs Coup

Calling it an Uprising is POV, we must go by dictionary definition and not by legitimacy claims or mainstream media.

Calling it a Coup isn't POV, it is only used by Maduro as that's what the 2019 Venezuelan coup is.

If people cannot accept this, this isn't an issue that requires a name change. I'm sorry. 2.28.247.221 (talk)

Duplicate section: This discussion is up there. (IP 2.28, it is good to read the talk page before you WP:EDITWAR-- also, please review WP:BRD, as you have reinstated your edit against consensus.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:46, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Would you mind explaining how you've determined consensus in this case? From looking at the discussion you linked, it doesn't seem clear that any was reached. Cmonghost (talk) 15:59, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Would you mind summarizing in the relevant section why you believe there is not consensus, including a look at actual reliable sources? Please don't split an ongoing conversation: that will only confuse future readers. If you disagree, please provide a discussion of sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:00, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Every reporter has biases and just because some reporters call this an uprising does not make it an uprising.

Just because some reporters call this an uprising does not make it an uprising. Those who insist on calling this an uprising are acting as if robots report the news and therefore they do not have any biases. Every reporter has biases and their biases are manifested in their wordings and their analysis of events. 207.233.45.12 (talk) 18:03, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Please continue the discussion up there. --MaoGo (talk) 18:13, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

To do list

I'm in a good mood :) I want to thank all of the editors that have contributed to the article until now. Shall we start a to do list? I wanted to include a couple of news: --Jamez42 (talk) 15:54, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Censorship and media attacks

• ABA-Cantv bloqueó acceso a YouTube (expansion)
• Roban y agreden a periodista de Efecto Cocuyo
• Agredido periodista de VPITV con bomba lacrimógena
• Conatel ordenó cese de operaciones de RCR Already  Done
• Sebin retienen a equipo de ONG Provea
• Fuera del aire CNN de la clabera de DirecTV Already  Done
• Agreden a periodista de El InformadorVE en Lara
• Sacan del aire a BBC Mundo de DirecTV Already  Done

Protests

• Amazonas (Puerto Ayacucho)
• Anzoátegui (Lechería)
• Apure (San Fernando)
• Aragua (Maracay, Cagua)
• Barinas
• Bolívar
• Carabobo (El Trigal, Guacara, Valencia)
• Caracas (clashes and blocks at Liceo Gustavo Herrera, Altamira, La Carlota, La Florida, La Candelaria, El Marques, Sebucan, Prados del Este, Bello Monte, Central University, El Paraíso, Los Ruices. Deputies were also present at La Carlota)
• Cojedes (San Carlos)
• Guárico (San Juan de los Morros)
• Lara (Barquisimeto)
• Mérida (Mérida, Santa Cruz de Mora)
• Miranda (Los Teques, San Antonio de los Altos)
• Monagas (Maturín)
• Nueva Esparta
• Táchira (San Cristóbal)
• Trujillo
• Vargas (Naiguatá)
• Yaracuy (Nirgua)
• Zulia (Maracaibo)

• Polimiranda

• Reporter Gregory Jaimes of VPI shot.
• Calls for blood at Clinica El Ávila
• Shootout at Chinquinquirá en La Florida, also en El Paraiso

1 May

Should this article cover May 1st events? --MaoGo (talk) 16:07, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

I think it should. A live blog was created to follow the events. --Jamez42 (talk) 16:14, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

I am not convinced, but not yet sure. It depends on what occurs. My suggestion is to develop text at 2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis (it is set with a statement about May 1 from which resumption can occur), and should events unfold such that they are better described as a continuation here, we can move that text to here. But I am not firm on this ... yesterday started at the main article, and eventually moved here as events took off, so that is my first inclination. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:33, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

I think we could mention events such as the resignation of the Supreme Tribunal justice, either as an aftermatch or a consequence of the uprising. The 2019 protests article will need a lot of attention. --Jamez42 (talk) 08:51, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

POV reordering of sections

This revision by Jamez42 reorders a couple sections for no apparent reason other than to put pro-Guaido voices ahead of pro-Maduro voices. The change to the first sentence under "Response" in particular makes the paragraph harder to understand (it begins simply with "Nations" with no other descriptors; previously it was "other nations", i.e., contrasting with Maduro allies). Is there any non-POV motivation for this change? If not, I think it should be reverted. Cmonghost (talk) 18:38, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

I can see two justifications (although I might not have gone to the trouble). One, alphabetical. Two, who has most support. Is there a case to be made for why they should switch? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:42, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

If it's common practice for these things to be listed alphabetically, or by who has most support, then I think the list change is fine, though unnecessary (and I'm sceptical it's not motivated by POV given the other change). However I do think the initial paragraph reads badly now (as I mentioned) and should be reverted. Initially it drew a contrast between Maduro allies and "other nations", now it just says "Nations" with no context as to who those nations are. (eta I don't have semi-protected edit access so I can't reword it myself [n.b. apparently I actually do have edit access but I'll wait for further discussion]) Cmonghost (talk) 18:49, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

OK, I saw the addition of "some"---it still reads a little strangely though. The "not a coup" is strange because it comes before describing the allegations that it's a coup. Maybe that could be removed or rephrased as well (or again just reverted to how it was before, which was fine)? Cmonghost (talk) 18:52, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

I think you are correct; the sentences as now constructed are awkward, and that seems to be a result of the reversal. @Jamez42: ?? How about putting that sentence back to what it was, even if the section order is different ? (That is, the two sentences at the beginning of the response section-- reverse back to what they were. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:59, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

I am going to go ahead and make the change given that there's been no response. Happy to discuss further if my revisions are objectionable for whatever reason. Cmonghost (talk) 02:53, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm so sorry! I was meaning to answer this, but I feel asleep yesterday. I was meaning to say that it should be alright. Thanks! --Jamez42 (talk) 09:23, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Section heading problem

The article has two sections with the same name, that creates editing and linking problems. There are two sections named "Clashes"; one needs to change. Why do we need date section headings? Naming the sections without dates works, and breaking up writing by date isn't needed. Is there SO much to report on May 1 that it requires separation? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:52, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 1 May 2019

2019 Venezuela uprising → 2019 Venezuelan coup attempt – Reliable sources are calling it a coup. LaserLegs (talk) 21:13, 1 May 2019 (UTC) One reliable source would be more correctly described in the singular, not plural. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:00, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Hi, What was the nature of attempt to overthrow Maduro? coop or uprising ? Look! "National Security Adviser John Bolton continued to push accusations that Cuba is behind the failed US-backed coup in Venezuela, now claiming that 25,000 Cuban troops are in the country, and Venezuela would fall by midnight if they left." AbDaryaee (talk) 10:41, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

antiwar.com is not an RS. It has been considered at WP:RSN a few times. GreatCaesarsGhost 11:22, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

There are a few different discussions on this, the article was moved without formal discussion, so it's time to have one. Reliable sources are calling this a coup attempt, and our own article on Coup d'état makes clear "means the overthrow of an existing government". Whatever your feelings about Maduro, he controls the government, and an attempt to overthrow him by military force is a Coup d'état. I'm certainly open to better titles so long as they make clear this is an attempted coup. --LaserLegs (talk) 21:13, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

• Move obviously, as nominator. --LaserLegs (talk) 21:13, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Some WP:RS calling it a coup:

• telegraf
• mirror
• new republic

--LaserLegs (talk) 21:57, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

• The Telegraph quotes one "Latin American expert" who used the word coup (“At first glance the coup was a failure,” says Watson, ...), but their own writing uses uprising (However, the support of some elements of the Venezuelan intelligence agency (SEBIN) for the uprising ...)
• Mirror The Daily Mirror is a tabloid; who cares what they call it? Nonetheless. They also call it both.
• New Republic, never heard of it, but they also call it both.

(NB: And it's an opinion piece) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:33, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

So all three sources you provide use the word "coup" maybe in a headline, maybe to sell a product, but in their reporting they use the word "uprising". Please find some high quality sources that actually discuss this as a "coup" rather than quoting people who call it a coup, or using a headline for clickbait, but then actually call it an "uprising". These aren't even top notch sources. Could we please focus on real sources? Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:49, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose, articles from RS have been written into why this shouldn't be called a coup already[7][8][9]. The coup terminology is politically charged. "Whatever your feelings about Maduro, he controls the government" he clearly does not control all the government, specially the legislative body, does he control the government legally? that is the question of the whole presidential crisis. Also why is uprising wrong? --MaoGo (talk) 21:24, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
  • It's not up to us to decide if Maduro controls the government legally or not. WP:RS is calling it a coup attempt, that's all there is to it. --LaserLegs (talk) 21:49, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
    • There are also RS calling it an uprising (cf. refs MaoGo mentioned). David O. Johnson (talk) 21:51, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
    • Could you all please start producing these sources? Because as soon as I catch up, you'll have a long list of the highest quality sources NOT calling it a coup to review. So far, no one claiming its use has produced a high quality source. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:11, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

From MaoGo, opinion pieces, working too fast, strike my commentary on these, see list below from 84percent SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:46, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
So MaoGo gives us good sources, in contrast to the tabloid stuff above, where we find: Bloomberg, a high quality source laying out the case for taking care with the word "coup" here. But it’s a tricky one to use in a case like this. Look it up online and the most prominent definition that pops up is this, courtesy of Oxford Dictionaries: “a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.” It’s the “illegal” part of the definition that’s problematic. More than 50 countries recognize Guaido, and not the autocrat Nicolas Maduro, as the legitimate leader of Venezuela. As a result, today’s actions can be viewed simply as an attempt to hand the reins of the country to that leader and, in the process, restore democracy. Maduro and his allies, of course, disagree with this characterization. Bloomberg, again, saying "There Is No Coup in Venezuela: The uprising in Caracas is an attempt to restore the government’s legitimacy, not overthrow it." The Washington Post, stating in their own voice, Don’t call it a coup. Venezuelans have a right to replace an oppressive, toxic regime.: Trump should work with Latin American countries to support Juan Guaidó. Therefore, whatever its ultimate outcome or, indeed, its strategic wisdom, Tuesday's uprising is not a "coup attempt," as the Maduro regime, echoed by too many people abroad, calls it. Rather, it is the latest in a series of legitimate and, for the most part, nonviolent efforts by Venezuelans, both civilian and military, to throw off an oppressive, toxic regime so that they can freely elect a legitimate government. Supporters of freedom and democracy should stand in solidarity with Mr. Guaidó and the many thousands of Venezuelans now bravely asserting their rights. So, really, Wikipedia is going to disregard a source like The Washington Post, Bloomberg and others and favor tabloids? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:59, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

The Bloomberg article by Eli Lake is also an opinion piece. The other is a statement from the editorial board, rather than a news story. Cmonghost (talk) 23:35, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have indicated that some were opinion pieces. My point is that the name of this "rebellion" is more complicated than a "coup", to the point that even articles about how to call it are being written about it. Anyway, Sandy, AbDaryaee, and 84percent provided long lists down below of RS using uprising. --MaoGo (talk) 23:39, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Cmonghost; working too fast (and would rather be writing the article). I have hatted this portion. Better list below from 84 percent. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:46, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Both WaPo and Bloomberg base their decision on the assertion that the Maduro government is illegitimate -- and that would be taking sides. Maduro controls the government, Guaidó is recognized by barely 50 countries. It's a coup. Deal with it. --LaserLegs (talk) 23:13, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

It looks like the person taking sides is you :) Write an article sometime; it will improve your knowledge of how to use sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:19, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

You have no business commenting on me what-so-ever. Strike your hateful personal attack immediately. --LaserLegs (talk) 23:44, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:50, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Per WP:NEWSORG, "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact" (emphasis added). Cmonghost (talk) 23:22, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Oppose "Coup", Support "Uprising", most reliable sources are not calling this a coup. I will come back with more detailed reasoning when the issues in Caracas are not so critical. The original poster's claim about reliable sources is not accurate, but now is not the time for the disruption. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:47, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

The primary reason for calling this an uprising is that to do otherwise completely disregards the Constitution of Venezuela, the right of the Venezuelan people to determine their government, and the majority of the Western hemisphere who agrees with the interpretation of the Constitution and the illegitimacy of Maduro's presidency during the 2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis. Article 333 calls for citizens to restore and enforce the Constitution if it is not followed. Article 350 calls for citizens to "disown any regime, legislation or authority that violates democratic values". (Univ of Minn translation) The "coup" label, in its usual sense, does not fit the circumstances where polls show at least 85% of Venezuelans believe Maduro's presidency is illegitimate, and they are following their Constitution to rise up against him.

That probably also helps explain why most reliable sources are not calling it a "coup".

Nonetheless, restricting my google search on reliable sources to 24 hours, looking at top hits, here's my list. Top sources just do not call it a coup, and what is notable is how many of them did call the 2002 event a coup (even though Chavez resigned). Also, if you look at year-old sources (before the presidential crisis), mentions of the word "coup" do occur; that seems to have changed since the presidential crisis.

New York Times

• What We Know So Far About Juan Guaidó’s Call for an Uprising, calls it an uprising, points out that Nicolás Maduro calls it a coup
• Trump, Seeking to Put Pressure on Maduro, Threatens a Full Embargo on Cuba, calls it an uprising, points out that Cuba's president, Maduro ally, calls it a coup
• Rival Protests Grip Venezuela After Guaidó’s Failed Effort to Beckon Military, calls it an uprising, points out that Maduro Defense Minister, Padrino Lopez calls it a coup

Washington Post, paywalled, I can't do, but they have expressed the view of their editorial board[10] (opinion in Washington Post voice, via ProQuest)

Don’t call it a coup. Venezuelans have a right to replace an oppressive, toxic regime.: Trump should work with Latin American countries to support Juan Guaidó. Therefore, whatever its ultimate outcome or, indeed, its strategic wisdom, Tuesday's uprising is not a "coup attempt," as the Maduro regime, echoed by too many people abroad, calls it. Rather, it is the latest in a series of legitimate and, for the most part, nonviolent efforts by Venezuelans, both civilian and military, to throw off an oppressive, toxic regime so that they can freely elect a legitimate government. Supporters of freedom and democracy should stand in solidarity with Mr. Guaidó and the many thousands of Venezuelans now bravely asserting their rights.

BBC

• Venezuela crisis: Defiant Maduro claims victory over Guaidó 'coup', uses the word "coup" in quotes, and attributes the word to Maduro allies Cuba and Bolivia, does not describe the event as a coup
• Venezuela's Guaidó accused of coup attempt by government, does not call it a coup, indicates Maduro allies do
• Venezuela crisis in 300 words, does not call it a coup, indicates Maduro does.

The Guardian

• Venezuela crisis: Maduro claims victory over 'deranged' coup attempt, only uses the word to coup to state how Maduro describes it, in their own voice, call it an uprising.
• Guaidó's uprising seems to have flatlined. What's next for Venezuela? calls it an uprising, never uses the word coup.

Associated Press

• Venezuelans take to streets as uprising attempt sputters, no coup
• The Latest: Guaido calls for more street protests Wednesday, "rejects characterizations of coup"

Reuters

• Venezuelan protests peter out as Maduro hangs on; U.S. and Russia squabble, no coup except that Maduro calls it a coup
• Explainer: Venezuela crisis puts Trump policy to the test, no coup, military revolt

CNN

• Venezuela's Maduro claims to have defeated 'coup,' as rival Guaido urges more protests, uses "coup" in quotes to describe Maduro's use, but calls it an uprising
• Operation Freedom: Uprising in Venezuela begins, no coup

France24

• New Caracas protests as US and Russia spar over Venezuela, no coup except Maduro claim
• As it happened: Venezuela's Guiado calls for new protests in anti-Maduro uprising, uprising, no coup

NPR

• Amid Violence In Venezuela, Maduro Digs In And Protests Continue calls it an uprising.

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:38, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

• Strong support OP is absolutely right. This is/was a coup. I say was, because military defectors sought asylum in foreign embassies. They clearly gave up. BobNesh (talk) 21:57, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

  What military defections have to do with the definition of uprising/coup? --MaoGo (talk) 23:07, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

  Could you please provide a source of something to back up your reasoning? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:43, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

  Uprising usually refers to armed resistance against the orders of an established authority. If this was uprising, then it already ended. If it was coup, then it failed miserably. BobNesh (talk) 01:11, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

• Support, the role of the military (and attempted use of military force) in this process makes the term "uprising" too general. This is an attempt to use military force to overthrow an existing government (note I'm not making a claim about Maduro's legitimacy here, just that it's a fact that he remains in control of the country, see [11]). Maduro's legitimacy has nothing to do with whether or not this is a coup. For example, during the 2014 coup in Thailand (2014 Thai coup d'etat), as I understand it the election result was nullified and the PM was ordered by the constitutional court to resign before she was ousted by military force, but the overthrow is still referred to as a coup. Should that page be changed to say "uprising" as well? Also, reliable sources are divided in terms of wording, some (e.g. CBC [12]) do use the term coup. Cmonghost (talk) 21:58, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Check out the reactions section. Why is there NOT ONE supporter of this “coup?” Why are they choosing instead to support a “speedy transition to democracy” against the “usurpation of Maduro?” Funny thing, there are a lot of groups opposed the coup, though. Wonder why that would be? Why would the opponents use one word for a thing, and its supporters completely avoid using that word? Maybe it’s because that word, to quote the Wikipedia article on the subject, typically involves an “illegal, unconstitutional seizure of power.” It's true that some small fraction of reasonable readers finding an article titled to your wishes would agree with you, but we'd have to hope they don't click through to find out what WP means when we say "coup." GreatCaesarsGhost 22:30, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Why are the supporters of an unlawful act not calling it an unlawful act? Is that your question? Our article on coup call it a "means the overthrow of an existing government". Pretty easy and straightforward actually. --LaserLegs (talk) 22:35, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
    • So you would concede that the supporters are avoiding the word coup because the word implies unlawful. We too should avoid the word lest we suggest it unlawful. GreatCaesarsGhost 11:22, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Most reliable sources do not use the term "coup", because it is misleading and/or incorrect. Your justification, in which you cite Wikipedia as your sole source, is original research. 84percent (talk) 22:51, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Well I provided reliable sources, so did Cmonghost. Where are yours? --LaserLegs (talk) 22:53, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
    • Here's a few: The Guardian, CNN, The Washington Post, The New York Times and Reuters. 84percent (talk) 22:58, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
      • The Guardian calls it a coup. --LaserLegs (talk) 23:07, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
        • They clearly refer to Maduro and say "what he called a military coup attempt by Juan Guaidó". Please find sources using the word "coup" in their own voice, not echoing what the subject of the report said. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:16, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

References

So, again, compared to the tabloid sources above, 84 gives us good sources:

• The Guardian, high quality source, no coup, only uprising.
• CNN, clearly uprising (repeatedly), although they quote someone once using the word "coup"
• The Washington Post, we already know they do not consider it a coup (see above)

84percent, your WAPO article is paywalled, and ProQuest doesn't have it yet; could you provide detail? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:36, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia, in the article, they use the word "uprising" in their own voice twice. There is a section which uses the word "coup", but only in the context of Maduro claiming it is a coup. The word "coup" is contained within a quote once, and later outside of a quote, however the latter is a paraphrasing: "Maduro denied this in an appearance on State TV late Tuesday, calling the day’s events a “failed” coup instigated by the United States." 84percent (talk) 01:00, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

• The New York Times calls it an uprising, but notes that Maduro calls it a coup.
• Reuters, no coup, only uprising.

So, why would Wikipedia disregard The Washington Post, The New York Times, Bloomberg, Reuters and The Guardian in favor of tabloid clickbait stuff?

Next, shall we look at who does call it a coup? That's in the article; Maduro and his allies. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:12, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

• I add to that that [13] The Economist does not use coup but uprising throughout the article. --MaoGo (talk) 23:15, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Well it's being called a coup by the CBC, the Guardian and the Telegraph. Who is calling it an uprising? Guaidó and his allies. --LaserLegs (talk) 23:15, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

We do not have an indication of The Guardian calling it a coup; and we do have a long list of high quality sources who do not call it a coup, compared to CBC and The Telegraph, who use both terms. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:53, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

@LaserLegs: I may have missed your explanation between all the different discussions, but would you care to explain why you disapprove "uprising"?--MaoGo (talk) 23:23, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Just that it's imprecise. This was a deliberate attempt to overthrow Maduro, with Guaido calling it a final push. That fits more with an organized coup, compared to a decentralized general uprising (like the Arab spring). There may be an uprising in progress now (it's hard to tell if this is somehow distinct from street protests a week ago), but there was certainly a coup attempt, and it failed miserably when the military failed to back Guaido. --LaserLegs (talk) 23:52, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

"it's hard to tell if this is somehow distinct from street protests a week ago" that is the point, under this consideration we should call the whole presidential crisis a coup. Uprising seems more fitting for this particular event in the large picture. --MaoGo (talk) 08:40, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm fine renaming the entire 2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis article to "failed coup" following Guaidos election loss. I'm also ok deleting this, merging the 4/30 violence into the crisis article, and the protests into the 2019 protests article. --LaserLegs (talk) 10:20, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

The event seems notable enough (it appeared in every newssource), we can discuss the merge when this renaming is done. « I'm fine renaming the entire 2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis article to "failed coup" following Guaidos election loss » You want to call everything a (failed) coup, that is bias to Maduro. What should we call this particular event then (as section or article)? mini-coup? Please avoid disregarding the whole political situation just because Guaido is not reaching his main goal. Also which election? --MaoGo (talk) 11:00, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

• Strong support Absolutely textbook example of a coup. Maduro is the de facto leader of Venezuela, and a public figure attempted an armed rebellion with foreign support. The media outlets and countries that support it want to avoid the word for obvious reasons (although even many vehemently anti-Maduro outlets such as the Guardian have called it a coup), but it is the only appropriate term here. Zellfire999 (talk) 23:51, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support, it is a coup by definition as the OP pointed out. Politically-charged opinions claiming otherwise have no place in a neutral encyclopedia. Temeku (talk) 23:53, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
• Comment: I would propose "Operation freedom" instead. I has the advantage that it isn't a descriptive name made up by us, but an actual name used by those who carried out this operation. Cambalachero (talk) 00:34, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

My preference is the move suggested originally, but I would find this an acceptable compromise (though I would actually prefer "Operación Libertad" with a translation given in the lede). The lede (or some other section) could then indicate that reliable sources disagree on whether or not this coup is in fact a coup or rather a "military revolt", "uprising", or whatever, allowing Wikipedia to remain neutral. Cmonghost (talk) 00:52, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

There is some debate about whether it's "Operation freedom" or "Operation liberty" but both of those are highly POV. We might end up with something ridiculous like Civil unrest in the 2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis or just merge this article into Venezuelan protests (2014–present) and delete it. --LaserLegs (talk) 00:56, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose move. While I agree with the above opinions that this event meets the definition of a coup, it doesn't matter, because that's irrelevant. Per WP:TITLE, our article titles should match what reliable sources use, and that has been shown to overwhelmingly be "uprising", with "coup" generally only used in quotes or when mentioning the Maduro government's response. ansh666 03:15, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Most reliable sources aren’t calling it a coup. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 03:49, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support This meets the definition of coup, and many RS are calling it a coup. This shouldn't have been moved in the first place. Davey2116 (talk) 04:22, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

• @Davey2116:, could you please provide some of the many RS? We only have so far a record of one. Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:35, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

• First, I acknowledge I've misread the results of a cursory Google search, and most of the titles that use "coup" in the headline are quoting Maduro. My bad.

However, there are still several reasons to disapprove of the re-naming to "uprising":

There are still a few RS that call it a coup, in their own voice.

The Daily Beast: "Guaidó announced that this was the “final phase” of the coup."
CBC: "Following the money behind Venezuela's coup" (while this is the title of the article and its first section, it's clearly not simply quoting Maduro)

Many other articles state, in their own voice, that Guaidó announced the "final phase" of a military plot to remove Maduro from office (or something to that effect). That is clearly synonymous with "coup". Notably, none of these sources are calling it an "uprising", except the CBC article which uses both terms.

NBC News: "Juan Guaidó on Tuesday called for mass anti-government protests and military defections, announcing what he termed the 'final phase' in an operation attempting to remove President Nicolás Maduro from office."
The CBC article: "The "final phase" of opposition leader Juan Guaidó's attempt to remove Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro from office began this morning — a popular uprising coupled with a military coup."
Global News: "Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaidó on Tuesday made his strongest call yet to the military to help him oust President Nicolas Maduro, although there was little sign of defection from the armed forces leadership and isolated clashes fizzled out."
The Independent: "Venezuela has seen a day of tumult and protests as the country's opposition leader Juan Guaidó began what he described as the "final phase" of his plan to take wrest control of the Venezuelan government from president Nicolas Maduro."

Many articles which call it an uprising say that Guaidó is calling for an uprising (or something to that effect). Hence, being perfectly neutral, the title would be POV if it were "uprising" (Guaidó's terminology) or "attempted coup" (Maduro's terminology).

NY Times: "Venezuela crisis: Guaidó calls for uprising as clashes erupt"
The NBC News article: "Clashes in Venezuela as Guaidó calls for uprising; Maduro decries 'coup attempt'"

Finally, to the extent that Guaidó is calling for an uprising, he is primarily calling for a military uprising (which sounds like double-speak for "military coup"). By all accounts, this has not happened to any appreciable degree, so unless we are to settle on "attempted uprising", the title is not as accurate as "attempted coup". (A "popular" uprising, insofar as it should exceed what would be called a "protest", hasn't yet amounted to more than a few clashes, either.)

Maduro is a terrible authoritarian kleptocrat, but by all accounts, Guaidó is seeking to use the military to seize power. Maduro's faults do not detract from the use of an accurate, non-vague description of Guaidó's action. Davey2116 (talk) 05:58, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

• Thank you for all that work! The Daily Beast (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources) is a poor quality source, so with several of us digging deep, we are left, still so far, with only one source (CBC) referring to it as a "coup" (and they refer to it as both a coup and an uprising), and every other reliable source identified so far is not calling it a coup. Also your list expands the number of sources who don't call it a coup, and come up with wording to avoid calling it that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:49, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

• Support speedy move to coup - Calling a coup a coup is not a comment on any aspect of it; it is not a comment on whether it's legitimate or illegitimate, homegrown or foreign-backed, authentic or not, etc. Calling it an uprising, however, is. More importantly, it leaves out that it was by definition an attempt at a coup. A coup is simply the overthrow of an incumbent government. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 06:33, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

• Article titles on Wikipedia are based on reliable sources: could you provide some to back up your reasoning? Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk)

• Oppose "Coup", Support "Uprising", most reliable sources are calling "Uprising". Bloomberg L.P.,Reuters , France 24, CNN, The New York Times, Vox (website), Venezuelanalysis , CBS News, Deutsche Welle ,Euronews USA Today,The Washington Post,The Japan Times,ABC News, Fox News, TheGuardian.com Politico --AbDaryaee (talk) 08:34, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

References

• Support calling it an attempted coup: sources which argue it is not a coup are merely expressing their sources for Guaido. There was clearly an attempt to get the military to overthrow Maduro. That is an attempted coup.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:16, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

  Sources have been discussed above, most reliable sources are using "uprising". Please avoid using "sources" as an argument without providing any(thing new). --MaoGo (talk) 08:33, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

• Strong support - This is a coup by definition. It is an attempt to overthrow the incumbent government, as stated by User:BrendonTheWizard above. It might debatable, open to interpretation and subjective whether this government is legally/legitimately/rightfully in power, but it is obviously objectively true that it really holds power over the country, even the harshest anti-Maduro sources don't deny this. Now, the sources refusing to call it a coup are indeed usually reliable sources, but we must keep on mind that these sources mostly have a significant anti-Maduro bias, which is reflected in their choice of words. Feon {^t/_c} 08:17, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

  We have to center our decision on reliable sources. Most reliable sources cannot be deemed unreliable only because the use "uprising", what is left then?. --MaoGo (talk) 08:54, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

  In a situation like this one, it is indeed hard to find sources which are not biased in one way or another. While they might still remain perfectly reliable for descriptions of what is going on (e.g. list of events that happened, order of events), their interpretations (e.g. exact choice of words, opinions) should be used very carefully. Feon {^t/_c} 09:11, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

  Sure, the choice of words is not evident. That's why some editorial boards are explicitly stating why one should avoid naming it "coup". Uprising seems like the neutral stance between "coup" and "democratic transition", while at the same time it indicates resistance and revolt.--MaoGo (talk) 09:24, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: By WP:Title:

Sometimes, the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. When this occurs, we give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change is announced. If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match. If, on the other hand, reliable sources written after the name change is announced continue to use the established name, Wikipedia should continue to do so as well, as described above in "Use commonly recognizable names".

• --MaoGo (talk) 09:01, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose - This suggestion is the best, calling it clashes is the most NPOV solution to this. All the arguments for calling it something else is just shitty, mediocre dog whistling. Syopsis (talk) 09:22, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Well except that the (failed) attempt to overthrow the government by force is a textbook definition of a (shitty) coup? There is already 2019 Venezuelan protests should we delete this article and merge into that one? (I think that's a fine approach). --LaserLegs (talk) 10:09, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Merging does not solve the naming problem for this particular event. --MaoGo (talk) 11:03, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

In my view it would actually allow us to abdicate responsibility for the naming problem entirely, by simply providing both views and naming the section something like "events of April 30" or "30 April clashes" or "'Operación Libertad'" (with quotation marks) or whatever. Cmonghost (talk) 13:55, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

An uprising implies something 'of the people', like a spontaneous citizen's uprising to overthrow the government. This was nothing of the sort; it was one government attempting to overthrow the competing government with military force, hoping that military units loyal to the competing government would join in. That is a coup, or at least an armed civil conflict. Yes, there were concurrent protests, but that doesn't constitute an 'uprising' any more than the other mass protests over the last few months. What takes it over the edge is the clearly planned military action, which is not characteristic of an uprising. Citing sources that obviously have something to gain by calling it an 'uprising' just ignores what actually happened. Related, but I don't think the term 'coup' is negative by itself. There can be good coups or bad coups. It just describes a military-led takeover. 27.253.17.238 (talk) 11:32, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Neither "military-led" nor "takeover" aptly describe the constitutional movement in Venezuela, which is driven by the people. Reliable sources understand this, and that's why they don't label it a coup. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:39, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

But this article isn't about the constitutional movement writ large, it's about Juan Guaidó's attempt at a "final push" to remove Maduro from power (and install himself as interim president, hence the 'takeover') with the support of the military, which is why it's aptly described as a coup attempt. That the military failed to respond in large enough numbers for this to happen doesn't make it less of a coup attempt, just a bit of a flopped one. Cmonghost (talk) 13:48, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

• Comment Another alternative would be to call it an "attempted military uprising". Multiple RS (as cited above) which backtracked on the initial assessment as an attempted coup now describe Guaidó as "calling for a military uprising" [14][15][16][17]. The "attempted" would make it clear that this didn't actually happen (i.e., the military uprising failed, as noted in several of the sources I just cited such as NYT) while still distinguishing these events from the rest of the protests (which could also be considered part of an overall "uprising"). Cmonghost (talk) 14:26, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Naming: Freedom or Liberty

Someone is changing them (back and forth). Operación Libertad can translate literally to either Operation Freedom or Operation Liberty, and reliable sources are using the two interchangeably. A few more use "Freedom" on a google search, and looking at bilingual sources (like Univision and Miami Herald) we find both. We need to pick one. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:59, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

• Operation Freedom for me, for now; I can be convinced to change my mind, but it rolls off the tongue easier. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:59, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

@Ballers1: You may want to comment here. David O. Johnson (talk) 22:11, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

• I also go with Operation Freedom, though I'm not too attached to it. Libertad means either liberty or freedom, (which in turn are basically the same thing). David O. Johnson (talk) 22:11, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
  • I wouldn't care, if I had to choose I would use Freedom because it is the term we started to use before all this, see 2019 protests and blackout. B --MaoGo (talk) 22:59, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
• Context matters. Is Guaidó using it in terms of freedom vs confinement, or in terms of liberty vs oppression? Oxford has a few things to say about it and they don't pick definitions based on how well it "rolls off the tongue". --LaserLegs (talk) 23:18, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
  • It sounds like he means it in the sense of freedom/liberty vs. oppression. Btw, the link you provided translates it as freedom (even though liberty seems like a reasonable translation). Blaylockjam10 (talk) 03:59, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
    • Oxford translates it to both freedom and liberty, and provides context for when to use which. --LaserLegs (talk) 10:10, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
• My suggestion would be to use the Spanish term (Operación Libertad) throughout, with a note in the lede and wherever else appropriate that it's been translated as both. Not ideal and probably against MOS somewhere, but perhaps better than the current inconsistency within the article. ansh666 03:20, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
  • I agree with the suggestion. Until (and if) it gets an "official" name in English, there is no way to choose, so it is better to just mention both translations and mostly use the native name throughout the article, or use something or use something like "Operation Liberty/Freedom" (which, honestly, looks even worse), or just try to avoid the name as much as possible and descriptively refer to it. Feon {^t/_c} 08:23, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

If it helps, Freedom and Liberty are essentially the same word in Spanish, Libertad. I can't think of another word. --Jamez42 (talk) 11:53, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes, Jamez42, the idea is that we just need to settle on one or the other, to be consistent within the articles. Do you have a preference? I can go with either, don't want to have to keep changing. Reliable sources use them both, pretty much equally, so we can't really get any guidance there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:57, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

I feel that Operation Freedom sticks more to the original feeling or meaning of it; I don't know if there's an intrinsic different meaning between freedom and liberty, but from I gather they are essentially the same. --Jamez42 (talk) 12:22, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Split sections

@David O. Johnson:, there was an intertwined story here, between Defections and Foreign involvement. By splitting them, the plot is lost. What is your reasoning for splitting them? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:09, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Ongoing???

Really? I don't think so. This was a single day event, call it a coup or uprising. Protests are sure ongoing, the crisis is also ongoing. But protests and crisis started long time ago, not on April 30th. And they already have their own pages. Just look at the May 1st section. Not a single word about uprising. BobNesh (talk) 00:58, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

It doesn't appear that you are following the news; when we start writing about 1 May, it will probably be longer than 30 April, considering all this is happening today as part of an ongoing uprising that started on 30 April. Do you follow Venezuela news? To get it, because press is blocked, you have to be somewhere like Instagram until the media can catch up. When there is not free press, there is a timelag. If you'd like to see how much there will be write about once the media reports it, please do see Instagram hashtag #1May, or #2May tomorrow, and so on. There is a delay with the press, unless you speak Spanish, and I prefer to wait for English-language sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:03, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

I do follow the news about Venezuela and I did follow the news about Syria. In the beginning, Syrian rebels were also enthusiastic like you, even more. Anyway, if this is an uprising, then it's pretty lame and idle. Protests don't equalize uprising. BobNesh (talk) 01:22, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Venezuelan protests (2014–present) is where most of this content belongs, along with the failed coup attempt as a subsection in 2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis. There is no "uprising", no "final push", it's just more of the same. --LaserLegs (talk) 01:15, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

I agree. This couldn't be further from "uprising". BobNesh (talk) 01:27, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

It appears the uprising was confined to April 30. The events on May 1 should go in the protests article &/or the crisis article. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 04:26, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to be ongoing. I fact, I would say it was a failed attempt at a government overthrow. Perhaps that is significant in itself.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:32, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Just for the record, there are plenty of national and neutral sources, although Spanish, that can be used despite of censorship. If there is a lack of details, I strongly recommend them:

• Efecto Cocuyo
• El Estímulo
• Tal Cual Digital
• El Pitazo
• Runrun.es
• Vivoplay (mostly videos and YouTube)
• VPITv (they make a lot of livestreams, mostly videos and YouTube)

El Nacional and El Universal can also be used as followups or complementary sources. --Jamez42 (talk) 11:36, 2 May 2019 (UTC)