Talk:Prayagraj

Time to revisit name change from Allahabad to Prayagraj?

I believe a consensus was reached on the name of this settlement last October following the renaming. I am opening a discussion in relation to whether this still remains the consensus now.

To me it appears that there is inconsistency in application of WP:COMMONNAME in relation to different articles. In India the settlement of "Mohali" was renamed "Sahibzada Ajit Singh Nagar" and the opening sentence reads "Sahibzada Ajit Singh Nagar, also known as Mohali" with the legal name first. Outside of India, in the case of Astana in Kazakhstan, the opening sentence reads "Nursultan, formerly known as Astana" and references to Astana within the article have been changed to Nursultan just two days following the renaming of that settlement.

I suggest that the opening sentence change to "Prayagraj, previously known as Allahabad," to inprove consistency across Wikipedia. Cordyceps-Zombie (talk) 11:19, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

based on your suggestion, to maintain consistency I have copy edited Mohali to state "Mohali or Ajitgarh officially known as Sahibzada Ajit Singh Nagar is a city in the... ". Because when there is a problem you fix the problem, You dont extend the same problem everywhere on the pretext of maintaining consistency. Now as far as the "revisit the name" is concerned, unless strong evidence is presented that the WP:COMMONNAME is changed, the article will not be renamed to anything else. --DBigXrayᗙ 11:30, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

OK, that is one way to fix the current problem. What will you do to the corresponding district which is here Sahibzada Ajit Singh Nagar district? You can't have different names for two eponymous entities can you? Also will the same be applied to Astana as well? Cordyceps-Zombie (talk) 12:33, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Cordyceps-Zombie, DBigXray, The district was named as Sahibzada Ajit Singh Nagar district at the time of article creation where it mentions Mohali in the first sentence. I think what Cordyceps has done is OK. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:58, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Cordyceps-Zombie and Fylindfotberserk, I have renamed the district to Mohali district. and explained the reason on its own talk page as this page is not the right place for that discussion. --DBigXrayᗙ 17:17, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

@DBigXray:, as you pointed out earlier, the official website has now moved to https://prayagraj.nic.in/. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 12:11, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

• cool Rsrikanth05 but still doesn't meet the criteria --DBigXrayᗙ 16:34, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure the Bangalore Mysore rationale should apply here. Those were minor spelling changes, bare phonetics. In the case of Prayagraj vs Allahabad, it's a total name change, much like Chennai-Madras or even the ongoing discussion at Astana to rename it to Nur Sultan. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 18:30, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

@ ">DBigXrayᗙ I believe Cordyceps-Zombie is correct that it is now time to revist the name of page. The guidelines state for WP:COMMONNAME: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's 'official' name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)." As alot of time has passed since the name legally changed, there is now strong evidence to indicate that Prayagraj now has a majority prevalence in independent, reliable sources. All western media sources like CNN Yahoo , Associated Press and Time magazine and even "the Weather Channel" mention Prayagraj as the primary name for the city with some going on to mention Allahabad as the previous name. Academics have also started using the name Prayagraj as the primary name of city previously known as Allahabad. Some links below materials published by academics usuing Prayagraj as the primary name , , . Further examples of this change in prevalence is exemplified by the people opposed to the name change who have nevertheless adopted the Prayagraj as the primary name in their articles and other published work. The official opposition party's mouth piece National Herald has in numerous published works mentioned Praygraj as the only name for the city previously known as Allahabad , . Even the left-wing leaning newspaper "The Wire" has adopted the change.

The name has officialy, legally changed. The name has also been adopted by people all around the world regardless of their political affiliation showing a majority prevalence and cultural change. This meets the requirements of wikipedia for the Name change. A failure to change the name will create confusion for readers of wikipedia and would not help educate the readers further the goals of wikipedia.

Kushagr.sharma1 (talk) 02:54, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

References

• Kushagr.sharma1 thanks for the ping. It seems you did not understand how the common name is decided. When the media houses start using a new name it does not change that time. The usage of the new name has to exceed the usage of the old name. I appreciate your efforts in finding the refs to back up your claim but what you have done is a WP:CHERRYPICK of links that support your claim. A quick google search for news results using the name Allahabad punctures your claim that all the media houses are using the new name. I would request you to be patient. The change may come in a few months or years. Only time will tell. No one is confused here in India or the international readers who read this page. It is clarified quite clearly. regards. --DBigXrayᗙ 06:47, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

">DBigXrayᗙ . Hi, Thanks for your prompt reply. From my understanding there is no requirement or mention of uniformity in the wiki sources on the usage of name and only a "majority prevelance". Your point can also be punctured through the same search. Out of the top 10 links you have provided on the google search only 1 talks about Allahabad the city while the rest talk about the university, high court and railway junction all who's legal name has Allahabad in it. On the contrary a google search for Prayagraj [1] shows all searches mention the city of Praygraj all by different newspapers. Now for the links I previously provided it may seem like I am cherry picking and that is because I picked all the sources outside of India and sources that oppose the government. If you want I could probably find indian sources from the media aswell to help show the normalisation of Prayragraj even more. However if the opposition of the government, academics and international news sources are using Praygraj it means the change has already happened and Praygraj is the De-Facto name all across the world. Please try to objectively look at this and tell me what is the threhold for "majority" and how it can be proven because right now I feel you are being very subjective. Kushagr.sharma1 (talk) 15:23, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Kushagr.sharma1 Google search results 1.46 crore hits on "Prayagraj" but a whooping 5.05 crores on "Allahabad" as of 21:18 IST 13 June 2019. Although there are other ways to do it, this is just a glimpse that times hasn't come yet to change Allahabad to Prayagraj. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:45, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

DBigXrayᗙ. Really appreciate your efforts to engage with me on this but I disagree once again. I dont think your Google search results argument can be relied upon for several reason. 1. Those searches dont reveal reliable wikipedia sources 2. Allahabad includes the name of the university, railway junction, airport, bank which have all not been changed and are not disputed. 3.The results also include sources from the last decade, which would mean no change would be practical anywhere on wikipedia and wikipedia would fall behind with the changes being made in the world. I dont believe you have countered my points, I would request you to please explain to me why the international media, opposition to the government adopting the new name is not enough to indicate a change in prevalence. Thanks. Kushagr.sharma1 (talk) 19:55, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Kushagr.sharma1, Check this Pageviews Analysis [2]. Allahabad is still the common name. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:53, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Nope. Like seriously? Wikipedia as a source? Here where Allahabad is current page name will any case have higher view count. If Prayagraj was current name on Wikipedia then it would have by default have higher view count as all wikilinks are currently written as per current name. Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a reliable source. JayB91 (talk) 05:40, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

• I see most of us agreeing that the page should move to Prayagraj. The city has changed its name legally and physically (no signboard or any marker exits with the old name anywhere in the country anymore), All the newspapers and international media cite the new name as stated above. Locally it is being called Prayagraj since last year by the residents. WP:Commonname argument seem redundant as the new common name seems to be Prayagraj. Astana to Nur-sultan moved faster while we are still dragging our heels for the inevitable page move. High time we moved the page. JayB91 (talk) 05:32, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

That's one of the tools besides the name need to get internationally recognized especially in English media. Doesn't matter what locals call it. I personally refer to the placer as Prayagraj, so what? Even Bangalore hasn't been moved to Bengaluru. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:56, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Interesting discussion. It seems to me the person insisting on not changing the text despite being presented with so many data points by other users, is clearly acting with bias for reasons best known to him/her. Without providing any datapoint to support his/her argument of keep on relying on "still not changed - Common Name" which in no manner is a measurable quantity.

I would request wikipedia to assign an unbiased reviewer for this case to make an early decision. If wikipedia wants to be representative of facts this sentence should have been changed much earlier. I also hope in future indefinite arguments like this will be discouraged - "it might take months to years for an official name change to be reflected on wiki". Nuiaq.labs (talk) 03:59, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

That's a reasonable request, Nuiaq.labs. For the relevant article titling conventions, please see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). Either immediately below or (probably better) in a fresh message thread at the foot of this page, appeal for a change of title. When doing so, show how your suggested title is superior to the current one in terms of these titling conventions. See what kind of responses you get here. If there's agreement, good. If you're out-argued, well, those wanting the current name to stay ought to be able to say what new evidence would get them to change their minds. If you get no response, or anyway no intelligent response, then you might craft a rather more formal "request for comment": please see Wikipedia:Requests for comment for instructions and suggestions for how to do this successfully. -- Hoary (talk) 07:00, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Nuiaq.labs Should not be calling users biased. It is a common procedure in Wikipedia whenever there's a name change as per WP:COMMONNAME. Go through archives of this talk to know more. You can open a Move Request and RfC. Just to tell you that this is an English Wikipedia and thus the name "Prayagraj" needs to get more international recognition than the older "Allahabad". Even "Bengaluru" is still "Bangalore" after multiple move requests in the past. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:07, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk Bengalore is a variation of the name of Bengaluru. So this case doesn't apply here involving a complete name change from Allahabad to Prayagraj. What does apply here is the name change of Astana to Nur-Sultan as well as Swaziland to Eswatini. These were swiftly changed on Wikipedia in accordance with the official name change.

Also lack of response to valid points raised by Kushagr.sharma1 indeed points towards some bias in this case, which may be intentional or unintentional.RandiGashti (talk) 14:41, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

He already understood why it is not changed. If you read the full thread, you will also understand. --DBigXrayᗙ 16:29, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

When Indian Government has change the name from Allahbad to Prayagraj, why don't you guys change it? This is how you are humiliating the sovereign power of taking decision of a country. This very unfortunate. Ek dharmayodha arya (talk) 20:14, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

Go through WP:COMMONNAME again and all those discussions and RfCs in the archive of this talkpage. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 08:31, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

@Ek dharmayodha arya: Do you think the sovereign power of decision making of India has control over the names of entities on English Wikipedia? If so, what is your opinion of the sovereign power of Germany over the names of articles on German topics here? Should we change the article "Germany" to Deutschland, and the name of "Munich" to München? If not, why not? What about the sovereign power of Italy, over the name of their capital city, Roma? Should we change the "Rome" article, too? Pretty soon, we won't be English Wikipedia anymore; we can just write a letter to 206 countries, and ask them what to call all our city articles, and wait for them to instruct us. Does that seem like a good idea to you? Do you see the point? The bottom line is this: we don't really care what it's called officially in India; we care what reliable sources in the English language call it.

However, your approach may have a lot more sway at Hindi Wikipedia, where, surprise! it's still called इलाहाबाद. Maybe try to convince them to change it, first. But even if you are successful there, that has no bearing on what it is called here, on en-wiki. Mathglot (talk) 10:28, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Mathglot, Thanks for the explanation. I don't know how many times we have to explain that. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:27, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

I just randomly checked news articles and as we can see, major newspapers like times of India are still using Allahabad [3] [4] [5]DBigXrayᗙ 14:06, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Yup. I rarely see Prayagraj in news articles. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:15, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 November 2019

The statement on the page:- "Allahabad (About this soundpronunciation (help·info)), officially known as Prayagraj" is weird.

Either official name should be made the page name, or it should be removed altogether. Not using official name as main name would be, in a way, illegal. Hence, page name should be changed to - "Prayagraj". And first sentence should also be changed to - "Prayagraj (About this soundpronunciation (help·info)), formerly known as Allahabad" 103.95.120.115 (talk) 02:31, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. - FlightTime (open channel) 02:32, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 January 2020

Area of Prayagraj is shown as 82 sq km(32 sq mile). Change it to 354.73 sq km (136.96). Hope it is clear now! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:5001:C670:1C76:FF87:CD4:CFAA (talk) 06:37, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

After the Uttar Pradesh cabinet decision on 31/12/2019 to expand the city of Prayagraj, the total area of Prayagraj Nagar Nigam will be the original 62.64 square kilometer plus new 292.09 sq km, that is, now total size of the city is 354.73 sq km (136.96 sq miles).

Source (see page 19 of the cabinet decision from 31/12/19 below) :

http://information.up.nic.in/attachments/CabinetDecisionfile/e849a3e48b52fa2f28ae9c247cb3ff3e.pdf 2601:1C2:5001:C670:1C76:FF87:CD4:CFAA (talk) 22:53, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DBigXrayᗙ 06:03, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 January 2020

Area of Prayagraj is shown as 82 square kilometer(32 sq mile) in the city information box on the top right side. Change it to 354.73 sq km (136.96 sq miles). Hope it is clear now!

Source (see page 19 of the cabinet decision from 31/12/19 in the link shown below regarding expansion of city limits which is already notified) :

http://information.up.nic.in/attachments/CabinetDecisionfile/e849a3e48b52fa2f28ae9c247cb3ff3e.pdf 2601:1C2:5001:C670:1C76:FF87:CD4:CFAA (talk) 06:45, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. The source says the area of the Municipality has decided to be increased from 62 sq km to 292 sq km. 2 Issues here. The figures dont match. Also the area of the city is not the same as municipality. DBigXrayᗙ 06:52, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Name must be changed to Prayagraj

The name must be changed to Prayagraj. It should have be done right at the time of government notification. If there is really a need to mention the common name Allahabad then it can be mentioned as the secondary name. It doesn’t mean the page and the title of the page should not be changed. Going by the current logic of the overworked wiki contributors who revert every change my other users of the page’s name to Prayagraj, Mumbai page would never be able to get the correct title and would always be known as Bombay as people still use Bombay as a common name of the city. Tarunuee (talk) 17:32, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

No. see above discussion. ⋙–DBigXrayᗙ 17:35, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) No, as per WP:COMMONNAME
This is the English Wikipedia, and our articles are based on the common name in English not the official name, and this name should be used throughout the article, other than a brief mention of the official name in the opening line and the infobox.
We may, eventually, change the name, as we did at Mumbai, after about 10 years, but other articles, such as Bangalore are still under their "English" names, although the official name changed in 2006, as this is what English readers recognize.
This is standard across Wikipedia - we will not be changing Spain to Espana, Finland to Suomi, Vienna to Wien, Munich to Munchen or any of numerous other articles, where the English name differs from the "official" name.
- Thank you - Arjayay (talk) 17:46, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Another, we are not changing Germany to Deutschland. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:33, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Your logic on Mumbai is not correct. The name of the city changed long before Wikipedia came into existence.

The logic of common name is also incorrect because it is based on what certain group of individuals believe. It is impossible to gauge the correct publicly used name at the right time.

Tarunuee (talk) 05:09, 24 February 2020 (UTC)