Talk:AC/DC

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January 2004 – August 2006 August 2006 (protection and voting) August 2006 – October 2006

To do

I've requested a peer review a few days ago, but I'm very busy right now, so I made a to-do list to improve the article. No-Bullet 03:00, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Genres

Last night, Helltopay27 added Classic metal to the genre listing. Now, this morning, an unregistered user removed it and I was just about to remove it myself when it was initally added last night, but when I read the classic metal article, it read:

"Classic metal bands are typically characterized by thumping fast basslines, not so fast heavy, but "clean", riffs, extended lead guitar solos, high pitched vocals and anthemic choruses."

Now, in my opinion, this sounds a lot like a typical AC/DC song. However, I'm not an expert in music, so, I would like everyone's opinions on whether you consider AC/DC a classic metal band or not and whether we should include this in the article before I add it back in or not. HK51 08:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd consider AC/DC to be a hard rock band, or blues rock, but not classic rock. They really made rock harder than anyone else did. Also, make sure that they are not refered to as a metal or heavy metal band, since, according to the many AC/DC biographies I've read, they seem to hate being called that. '74 Jailbreak '74 Jailbreak 16:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

'74 Jailbreak is right. They are a hard rock band. Several old copies of Rolling Stone, interviews with them, unofficial biographies, etc, all say this. They are blues influenced, with alot of scales from it. If anyone doesn't agree, I'd like to hear your comments.--Bass Masta 09:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Nah, I wasn't suggesting they were heavy metal. I just thought the description of Classic metal - "Classic metal bands are typically characterized by thumping fast basslines, not so fast heavy, but "clean", riffs, extended lead guitar solos, high pitched vocals and anthemic choruses" - sounded a lot like a typical AC/DC song. Like I said, I'm no music expert, so I thought I'd leave this open to discussion. HK51

Motörhead influenced by AC/DC?

Could someone tell me when and where they ever said that? Until proven otherwise, I removed this from the article. Roda 18:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Reopening the external links debate, hopefully with less edit-warring and such

I was pretty happy with the external links as they were a month ago, but now I think a lot of the fairly low-quality links have been edited out and I'm pretty happy with that, though there were a few I thought should stay, link the Magazine Archives and the Crabsody in Blue site, but I won't complain if no-one else wants them there.

But what's bugging me now is the three "Profile pages" which are listed. We'd came to the conclusion a few months back that, seen as AC/DC have had so many record companies, it would be best to include them all just as "Profile pages". However. I've just watched the Live at Donington DVD and when I clicked on 'The Web' it listed http://www.acdcrocks.com as the official site, I can do a screenshot of this if anyone wants one.

So, to sum-up, I think the EL section should read as follows (also, I think we should put acdcrocks.com into the infobox as the official site):

• Official website
• Profile page by Albert Music
• Profile page by Atlantic Records
• AC/DC at the Open Directory Project
• MusicBrains: AC/DC
• Rolling Stone: AC/DC

I know it's a pretty trivial issue! But I know how controversial editing these links can be. HK51 18:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

That layout you posted is OK for me. No-Bullet 19:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Gentlemen: Do we have to go back to link fighting again? Why did someone erase the old agreement from this page anyway? This was the old set up we agreed on and it should still carry the day, imo. Btw, accadacca.net is owned by Albert Music. Albert Music licenses Sony to sell AC/DC product. If any site is truly official, they are it since they have been AC/DC's partners for going on 33 years now. Nowhere on acdcrocks.com does it say it's the official site. You might note that Google now says accadacca.net is the official site, btw.

Oops forgot to add my IDNCC17 03:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• Profile page by Albert Music
• Profile page by Atlantic Records
• Profile page by Epic Records
• AC/DC at the Open Directory Project
• AC/DC Fan Club
• AC/DC Magazine Archives
• Bedlam In Belgium
• Crabsody In Blue
• Electric Shock
• MusicBrains: AC/DC
• Rising Power
• Rolling Stone: AC/DC

First off, I'm not asking for a "fight", I'm asking for a discussion. Most of the links you've posted are good, but there are some which we do not need, please read WP:EL. According to it, we should axe the following from your list:

• AC/DC Fan Club - provides nothing of merit in terms of AC/DC's history, and links to message boards/discussion groups aren't generally tolerated
• Electric Shock - adds little in terms of knowledge of the band's history
• Rising Power- adds nothing of merit

http://www.acdcrocks.com is listed as the Official Site on the Live at Donington DVD and seen as Epic Records is currently the label AC/DC are signed to, I'd say it's the offical site. I'm aware of the band's long history with Albert, but Epic is the label they're currently signed to, thus, their site for them is most likely the official one.

This is currently the way I think the section should look:

• Official site
• Albert Music site
• Atlantic Records site
• AC/DC at the Open Directory Project
• AC/DC Magazine Archives
• Bedlam In Belgium
• Crabsody In Blue
• MusicBrains: AC/DC
• Rolling Stone: AC/DC

HK51 19:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Reviewing the article history, the El section was set in stone by a Wikipedia administrator using policy WP:EL as a guideline. Edits done to the section by regular editors established an agreed upon format. It somehow got spammed earlier. I re-established the section to follow Wikipedia policy, mainly WP:EL and WP:CON. WP:EL violations will result in the article losing it's GA status. DownUnderThunder 01:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not asking for a fight either. I'm simply asking for the consensus I posted above, that was agreed upon and set in stone previously by Wiki administrators, to be restored.

Nowhere in fact, in the history of this discussion, have any of those links been shown to break any of the rules by any Wiki administrator. I would still like to know why the original discussion was eliminated from this page as there were several wikipedians that concurred with my arguments during that discussion. I don't recall DownUnderThunder being there at all for any of that discussion, btw.

As for the merits of the individual links, let's go one by one, if we must.

• AC/DC Fan Club This is the longest running, largest AC/DC fan club on the net that is also frequently updated with the most up-to-date news on AC/DC that you can find on the internet. It's also an official link of accadacca.net, the only truly official ac/dc website as I have previously mentioned. The photo albums alone on that site make it worthy of being linked alone.

• Electric Shock - This is one of the most well known and longest running AC/DC sites on the web. The owner of that site is credited on AC/DC's Family Jewels DVD and has recently co-authored what will likely prove to be the most well documented AC/DC bio, "AC/DC: MAXIMUM ROCK & ROLL" which has already been released in Australia and is due out in America in January of 2007.

• Rising Power- Not the most updated site so I'm not going to spend time defending it's merit. To say it adds nothing of merit is too harsh, imho, however.

Anyway, in conclusion, I know most of these links quite well, many of them I originally posted here under my old user ID including accadacca, bedlam, crabsody, electric shock and the mag archives.

If anything should be dropped, I'd like to suggest that we lose the highly offensive Rolling Stone link as well as that waste of site, Music Brains. Talk about links that add no merit to an AC/DC page! NCC17 19:52, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Nothing on Wikipedia can be "set in stone", if you truly believe that, you don't understand the concept of Wikipedia at all. Now, about the links, if we're going to have a proper discussion about this, you really need to read WP:EL.

• AC/DC Fan Club - according to WP:EL: Sites that require registration or a paid subscription should be avoided because they are of limited use to most readers. And it also states that, only a website such as this should be included if: The web site itself is the topic of the article, or, It has relevant content that is of substantially higher quality than that available from any other website. Neither of which is true for this website. This website should be deleted from the EL list if this article has any chance of ever becoming an FA.

• Electric Shock - I respect the fact that this is a well-known and long-running website and that it's owner is very respectable, I'm not slagging the website itself off at all, I do think it's rather good. But, I must refer you to a policy from WP:EL, in which it states that one should avoid: Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain once it becomes a Wikipedia:Featured article. This , in my opinion, is true of this website. It doesn't really give more information than any other of the websites, or the article itself already gives and therefore, does not merit inclusion in my opinion.

Seen as there's obvious confusion over which is the official AC/DC website, even if there truly is one, then I'll drop that from my argument and conclude that we have three Officials! HK51 21:24, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Hk51, no where on the WP:EL does it expressly forbid a site requiring registration! It only gives recommendations in very general terms. And that site btw, only requires registration with Yahoo. Of course Yahoo, at last check, is still the most popular site in the world. So, it's quite likely that most people reading Wikipedia would already have a free ID on Yahoo, is it not?

I also think removing Electric Shock is a mistake as well. You're talking about a website that was the bible for AC/DC fans before AC/DC even had any presence on the net. It didn't get to the 2nd spot on Google without having a ton of hits over the years. For a long time, it was the #1 ac/dc site on the web. NCC17 22:28, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy basically states that sites requiring registration should not be included in EL sections unless they're either the subject of the article, or there are no other decent websites on the Internet that provide information on the articles subject. In this case, seen as we already have sites which give out information without a requirement for registration, it seems strange that this message group is included. The fact that Yahoo is one of the most popular sites on the web, even if this is true, is completely irrelevant. You can't assume everyone is going to have a Yahoo ID.

To me, Electric Shock doesn't provide any more information that's already in the article and covered by the other sites. I respect its history and its standing, but I don't think it merits inclusion. The discussion on this site will probably always be open, Wikipedia policy doesn't necessarily suggest it not be there, but I think it's a waste of time having both it and Crabsody In Blue there, I'd pick either or. HK51 21:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, come on, we had this discussion before, www.acdcrocks.com is the official page, there's nothing to argue. The other links are completely unnecessary. Cheers. No-Bullet 19:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

To No-Bullet: So you say, based on something supposedly seen on a DVD that's how old? If it is the official AC/DC site as you claim, why does it not say so anywhere on acdcrocks? You'd think they'd want to post that information prominently, if it were true??? NCC17 03:09, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

To HK51: I think you're misquoting wiki guidelines (not rules, btw). It's obvious that this policy is mostly an attempt to discourage sites that require a subscription. It's also my belief that it's completely relevant that Yahoo is the most popular site in the world as the EL policy is clearly only there to discourage small sites requiring registration from being posted on Wiki. (Mainly newspapers.) As far as it's newsgroup's merits, can you name another AC/DC site that has band news updated daily, even hourly at times? None of the other links posted have that uniqueness.

I've also stated why Electric Shock is unique due the knowledge of the owner and his work on what will probably prove to be the most definitive AC/DC book, which incidentally was co-authored by Murray Engleheart. If I have to tell you who that is and his relation to AC/DC's career then I would guess you don't know as much as you think you do about AC/DC.

Anyway, my point is that people come to wikipedia to get AC/DC info. Either you want to give them the best resource links out there or you don't. If all you care about is what status this article gets (which who really gives a damn, imho - certainly not the average AC/DC fan) then keep gutting the best links and limit what info can be found here. NCC17 03:09, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, this is an encyclopedia, we're here to make quality articles. Wikipedia is not a repository of links. The information should be inside the article. No-Bullet 02:00, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

First off, the live at Donington DVD is only three years old, and as I said, I can do a screen shot of where it states acdcrocks.com as the official site.

Secondly, I'm not misquoting guidelines (which I never said were rules, I said they were policies IIRC), you can read it for yourself right here: WP:EL. I'm sorry, but nowehere does it state in WP:EL that the fansite policy is just there to discourage small sites, if that were so, it would say so. Also, I can't even check to see if what you say about this fansite is correct. Why? I don't have a Yahoo ID! That's why the policy is there. There are some, believe it or not, who don't have Yahoo IDs and don't wish to get one in the near future, thus, the site is completely useless to them.

Third, what the owner does in his free time is none of my concern. Even if he was in AC/DC, that wouldn't change my opinion on the site. I just don't see why it needs to be there. The owner's status has absolutely nothing to do with this. And low and behold, I have no idea who Murray Engleheart is. I actually don't care. You can launch your little subtle personal attacks at me all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you are wrong about the links. Why do you think people have been arguing with you and edit-warring with you for months over these links?

If people want AC/DC links, tell them to go and type "AC/DC" into Google. Like No-Bullet said, Wikipedia is not a link repository, it's an encyclopedia. I care about giving the best information out there on the band, if the article ever does get to FA status, I'll be happy for it and the team of editors who've worked hard at it these past few months, trying to get it perfect. If it doesn't, myself and all the other editors here will try our best to get it to FA again. Because, in case you don't know, FAs are the best articles on Wikipedia, and there's a reason why someone used these links as one of their reasons for objecting to the article's promotion to FA status. HK51 20:54, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The screenshot: http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/6338/vlcsnap38141dx7.png HK51 21:46, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

BTW, the back of the Family Jewels DVD also says "www.acdcrocks.com", at least the latin american version. No-Bullet 04:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Look, I don't want to edit-war w/anyone. Especially, not like before. And my mention of Murray Engleheart was not meant as a subtle attack on you at all. I'm sorry you took it that way. What I am suggesting is that the book that will be coming out in January (in most of the world) will likely be the most definitive ac/dc tome ever available. It includes the participation and the cooperation of the actual band members which has never been done before and may not be accomplished again.

My point is that people viewing this article in the future will want to know where they can find the author's website. Not only should you look at current site information, you should look at a site's potential for accurate info in the future. That's why I support the links that I do. I would say also that much of the accurate info that's in this article comes from experts on the band like Arnaud and the owner's of the other site's that are currently linked here.

Rolling Stone & Music Brains certainly don't qualify to be here imo when you look at what info they have and what they will likely focus on in the future concerning ac/dc. However, I've compromised on them and I'm asking for your continued compromise on the links I've posted and support being here.

Btw, regarding the other issue, a screenshot from a three year old dvd does not constitute any proof of acdcrocks.com being ac/dc's official site. I can show you a picture of the Back In Black album that's brand new and they still haven't got the correct song order on it after 26 years!

Even if they have claimed that on a dvd, they do not claim it on Sony's site now. I wonder why that is??? NCC17 22:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

No-one's edit-warring, I specificly haven't edited the EL section again for that reason. At this moment in time, I see no reason why Electric Shock has to be included. I'm not saying it's a bad website, and I'm by no means disrespecting the owner in any way, I just don't believe it (from WP:EL), "provide[s] a unique resource beyond what the article would contain once it becomes a Featured article." To narrow that down, I don't think it gives the reader any more information that's not already in the article. If it offers any further information in the future, then we could take it into consideration again, but as of this moment, I, personally, don't believe it, like I said, offers the reader any more information than what's already there in the article.

It's all well and good if the site's owner has written a great book on AC/DC, but his site doesn't, in my opinion warrant inclusion here. If people want to find out more about the author of the book, I'm sure a URL of his site will be included in the book, if not, a standard Google search will bring up his site.

Rolling Stone does most definitely qualify to be here, as of this moment it's the only site we have listed which offers reviews on the band's albums. It also has several interesting articles, one of which is actually written by Rick Rubin. The biography section does show the band in a bit of a bad light...but it does show a differing POV than what's on, say, the Atlantic Records website. Thus, we're showing the reader two varying opinions on the band.

MusicBrainz, I'm not entirely sure about...but I've seen it listed on countless other band articles (see The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Kid Rock, there are many others too). Therefore, I'm sure it's included for some reason. However, if no-one can provide a valid reason as to why it should be listed here, I agree with you on this.

Why don't you think this constitutes as it being the official website? This is the only evidence I've seen which confirms any of the record sites we have listed as official, something I think we should take into consideration. None of the other websites have themselves listed as officials, but really, anyone could create a website and call it the official AC/DC website. Therefore having the word "official" in the actualy website does not necessarily make it so. And to further add to this, why would Sony say their website is official on the DVD if it wasn't? Surely for something like that, Albert Music would have taken notice and taken appropriate legal action against Sony for this offence?

To sum up, I'm willing to reach a comprimise with you, but not if it violates WP:EL. I see no reason to include websites which provide no further information than what's already in the article.

PS: I've just noticed the Crabsody in Blue website isn't working. I'm not entirely sure if this is something to do with my connection (I doubt this, seen as all of the other websites are working) or whether the site has actually closed down, so could someone else check it on their computer? Thanks. If it's down, it should be removed as soon as possible. HK51 20:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Crabsody in blue is working fine for me. No-Bullet 21:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm...it's still not working for me. Must just be my connection then, but all of the other sites are still working :S ...oh well. HK51 22:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

NCC17 - Please discuss here before you edit the EL section again. ĤĶ51→^Łalk 22:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

last album and tour

where did you get Angus' quote? are you sure this new album will be the last one for the band? are they going to split? i know the members are gettin' old and all, but, why is this new album the last one for the band? please respond. Jailbreaker22 16:58, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

That quote has been here a long time ago, sourced with the marshall pdf. I heard it something like that, so i left it. Now, i couldn't find a reliable source, so i deleted it. No-Bullet 19:27, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

FA?

Well, about a week ago, Daniel Bryant told me in my user talk page that the ac/dc article could be a FA, and i was thinking in nominate it. What do you think?? No-Bullet 19:27, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've no problems with it being nominated...but I'm not entirely sure if it's ready for FA status, it needs some expansion, especially in the Brian Johnson era section. The Influences section could also do with some work. But if other people think it might be ready, I say go ahead with it. HK51 21:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, then please help me to expand those sections. Thanks =) No-Bullet 00:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The influences section only named bands, so i've moved it to List of tributes to AC/DC in popular culture. No-Bullet 01:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'll do my best to find a few new things. Oh, do you know how to cite something from a DVD documentary as a reference? HK51 18:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

You could cite it with the ref tags like a normal reference. No-Bullet 17:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

The DVD didn't give out a whole lot of information that wasn't already in the article :( Hmmm...I guess I could buy a book on the band or something. Either way, digging up information on AC/DC is hard! HK51 20:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Official Biography

Just out of pure curiosity, has there EVER been an official biography of AC/DC on either DVD or Book? Ive found countless unofficial ones and i know that AC/DC has an official biographer, but ive never found an officially sanctioned bio. Ferdiaob 01:37, 06 December 2006 (UTC)

Picture

The Artist picture of the band in the infobox is small and kind of blurry. Can someone find a better one? — Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Necko (talk • contribs) 22:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Influences

I think we should remove that section for both articles, it just lists bands from Musicmatch and AMG. What do you think? Cheers. No-Bullet (Talk • Contribs) 18:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

True. I'd be happier if we could find sources which show each of these band's actually saying AC/DC influenced them, if not, just cut it. ĤĶ51→^Łalk 22:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Having said the above, it would be good if we could maybe find some sources showing a few bands saying they've been influenced by AC/DC, and also if we could even find out who influenced AC/DC themselves (I'd always heard Little Richard was an influence). This would make a great addition to the article imo, but not until we find sources! ĤĶ51→^Łalk 22:46, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Any of the unofficial biographies will include quotes from Angus about Chuck Berry etc, plus Malcolm's Rolling Stones influence etc. Maybe start there. I would but I haven't got the books with me. Bretonbanquet 22:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Members

Did we not agree a few months ago to use the "Classic" line-up in this section? I.e. the one with Bon Scott? It seems the most relevant to me. The Dave Evans line-up was of little impact whatsoever. ĤĶ51→^Łalk 22:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't know why people think that lineup is so important. The classic formation is also more suitable for that section. No-Bullet (Talk • Contribs) 23:24, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, I'll add the "Classic" line-up back in now. ĤĶ51→^Łalk 23:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Who says the "classic" line-up included Mark Evans and not Cliff Williams? It seems hard to justify, and "classic" is a POV word... Bretonbanquet 16:25, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, that was just what was on the archive page when I copy/pasted it; Cliff Williams is probably more relevent. Well then we should find an alternative to the word "Classic", because I just don't see the point of having the Dave Evans/Original line-up there, that line-up just wasn't important; they only released one single IIRC, which was later re-recorded., therefore, I don't know why people think D. Evans deserves a special mention in that section over Bon Scott.

User:209.105.206.97 wants the Dave Evans line-up there (from my talk page) "because that is what the earlist lineup is", but I don't see the point in that argument. It's the earliest line-up sure, but why should it get preference over a Bon Scott line-up? ĤĶ51→^Łalk 16:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I certainly don't see the point in having the original Dave Evans line-up there - they might have been the first but they're hardly vital to the story. Isn't there a timeline of line-ups somewhere? If so, then the only line-up you need to have separately is the current one. A lot of people would argue that it's the "classic" line-up anyway, the line-up that recorded "Back In Black". I just don't see any great relevance in plucking another line-up from the 70s and putting it in a separate section, just because they recorded the best music according to most of us. Bretonbanquet 18:08, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The member timeline page is: Past members of AC/DC. I see a relevance to a Bon Scott line-up in that Scott is very integral to the story, it was with him the band earned their international success. Having said that, you're right, it is hard to justify any line-up as "Classic", so I'd be happy with just the current line-up there, just as long as the Dave Evans line-up isn't placed there as well. ĤĶ51→^Łalk 23:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Lead Section

Since Orane mentioned in the FA nomination that the lead section does not meet the criteria. I think we should rewrite the section, so I've been trying this in my sandbox (User:No-Bullet/Sandbox). What do you think? No-Bullet (Talk • Contribs) 23:24, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me, great job, makes a welcome improvement on the old lead. Add it in as soon as you can. ĤĶ51→^Łalk 23:29, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Done, but I still think it need some work, my english is far from perfect and it needs expanding the Johnson part. Cheers. No-Bullet (Talk • Contribs) 04:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Cleaned up the grammar and stuff just then. I agree about expanding the Johnson part of it - I'll see what i can do later on. ĤĶ51→^Łalk 19:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Expanded the lead, I still think it needs a little more work, but tell me what you think. Oh, don't you think we should move the stuff about them being ranked #4 in VH1's 100 Greatest Acts of Hard Rock and about them being the second highest earning entertainers in Australia to the "Recent events" section? ĤĶ51→^Łalk 20:58, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right, the last paragraph with the sales and everything should be moved, I'm not sure what to do with the VH1 ranking, do what you think it's better :). Cheers. No-Bullet (Talk • Contribs) 01:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I moved the VH1 ranking further on down the lead and the second highest earners thing into "Recent events". In the Recent events section, I have also removed the Helen of Troy musical section as it is more to do with Brian Johnson and not the band as a whole (it's covered in his article) and also the section about the Family Jewels DVD - I don't see a reason why it deserves a special mention, all of the info on it is covered in its article. This ok? ĤĶ51→^Łalk 02:53, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Great! No-Bullet (Talk • Contribs) 16:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

lame

Just because rock legends "Jet" wore an AC/DC shirt in one of their videos doesn't make this band good. They wore the shirt to parody this lame manufactured "band" who are about as "rock and roll" as a dead chimpanzee. Unlike real rock bands (Nickelback, Linkin Park, Jet, Good Charlotte, New Found Glory, Blink 182, Bowling for Soup, etc) these posers just pretend that they're rock in order to sell albums to foolish fans who'll eat up anything. Thankfully because I watch MTV and TRL, I am not among these parrots and am an individual. You have to be careful not to let the man corrupt your mind into thinking this is good. This is just plain horrible. - MTV rocks — Preceding unsigned comment added by E tac (talk • contribs) 08:45, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok. No-Bullet (Talk • Contribs) 16:01, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

LOL - E_tac

rough and tough dvd

where in the world did you find this upcoming dvd? you need to cite this or it will be removed. Jailbreaker22 23:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Might be a bootleg - the same editor added a bootleg album which I've already deleted - I didn't notice he'd added the DVD as well. Bretonbanquet 00:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

i noticed the dvd was removed. looks like no one cited it. Jailbreaker22 16:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I have seen the DVD in UK and it states "Made in Germany" and cites "VEO STAR ENTERTAINMENT GMBH" all of which looks OK?