Talk:Austria-Hungary

Flag of the Triune Kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia and Dalmatia

Flag of the Triune Kingdm of Croatia, Slavonia and Dalmatia, used 1848-1918

It seams that some editors are not that familiar with history regarding this flag. So here are a couple of sources regarding the Croatian tricolor flag with the coat of arms and its official usage.

Also a soure that the flag either with the Triune CoA or with the Croatian CoA was used on all ships in Croatian posetion, as a variant of a merchant flag

Also a lot of paintings and photographs confirm the historic sources as well as opinions of historians and researchers on that subject Ban kavalir (talk) 19:11, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

References

"Australia-Hungary" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Australia-Hungary. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 23:06, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Fiume

@Havsjö:,

Hi, I am still awaiting your proposals regarding uncovered Fiume coined in the edit log. I presented regarding both interpretations a flawless predecessor/successor lines, but if you'd check some Poland related articles, you'll see some really many not real successors comparing to Carnaro...Cheers.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:29, 4 January 2020 (UTC))

Alright, we can re-add West Ukraine and Carnaro --Havsjö (talk) 16:35, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Well, in that case we have to remove Second Polish Republic, since the West Ukrainian People's Republic preceded it, and then we may as well put back State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs to be totally flawless according to the successors without the necessity of recognition.(KIENGIR (talk) 14:07, 6 January 2020 (UTC))

Austria-Hungary as satelite state fantasy

A Romanian user "Transylvania1916" spread the misconception, that Austria-Hungary became "officially" satelite state of the German Empire, and he try to bounce on that fantasy claiming that he found such books and authors, which is a private opinion of the authors. Of course we can not see and find that in the public law or the constitutional arrangement of the A-H Empire. And this is a hard fact. In the reality it was only about wartime, and about war-economy, and the military coordination of Germany and Autria-Hungary it did not effect in any sense, that Austria-Hungary remained a 100% sovereign state.--Liltender (talk) 09:28, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Article under temporary full protection

As the situation has descended into edit-warring, I have protected the article for three days. Transylvania1916 and Liltender, you are expected to discuss the issues on this talk page as the first step in dispute resolution. Favonian (talk) 09:51, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

I for one have nothing to discuss. I provided my sources, and all I wrote was in them. Austria-Hungary surrendered control over its army to the Germans. One of the 5 sources I provided does explicitly state that this arrangement made Austria-Hungary Germany's satellite, another uses the term "loss of strategic independence", and another states that in September 1916, Ludendorff and Hindenburg became the effective rulers over both empires. Another specifically states that "sovereignty has been relinquished to a huge extent". I offered to provide a 6th source, which plainly states that by September 1916 AusHun became Germany's satellite. I'd also like to note that this status was short-lived: the death of Franz Joseph - whose signature gave this agreement power - negated it, and Karl regained control over the Austro-Hungarian Army. I myself consider that I have fulfilled my prerogatives as a good faith editor. As for my edit warring, I didn't consider it to warrant any discussion so long as I provide duly sourced content and my opponent deletes all of it, with no legitimate counter, let alone a sourced one. I'd like to add that, in my opinion, full protection should have come before this person disrupted my work once again. But this is all I have to say on the matter. I have nothing to argue, my sources do that for me, as should be the case for any editor that respects himself. G'day. Transylvania1916 (talk) 10:46, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Temporary controll of the army for war-time did not mean anything related what you try to suggest. You can provide 10000 sources, it did not change the constitutional arrangement and public laws of Empire of Austria and Kingdom of Hungary, and did not effect its sovereignty. British placed under French lead controll their army , according to you Britain became satlite of France...--Liltender (talk) 11:26, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, parts of it, not all of it, like the Austro-Hungarians did. Transylvania1916 (talk) 15:58, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Again, it did not changed the constitutional arrangement and public laws of Austria or Hungary. It remained an independent state even on the level of diplomacy. The authors of that books are not real experts, they are not legal historians neither constitutional lawyers. This is typical case of "not enough good source".--Liltender (talk) 21:00, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't even know why I'm still arguing with you. This is the Wiki, your individual opinions do not matter in articles, I backed up my statements with 5 sources, and I could get even more if I wanted to. If you want to properly counter me, bring your own sources. As soon as the protection is lifted, I will put everything back in. For at this point it's not even about the actual information anymore, I simply refuse to concede to a plain disruptor like you. You've got nothing to back up your claims, you're just wasting my time with your unsourced poorly informed opinions. Transylvania1916 (talk) 06:00, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

(1) First of all, please read Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing, you should summarize source material in your own words, instead of copying the text of the cited books. (2) One single source (Richard Bassett's book) uses the term "satellite", so we could maximum regard it as a PoV, not as a fact. (3) All cited sources emphasize that the agreement limited the sovereignty of Austria-Hungary, but only on military issues. Most sources also mention that the agreement between Germany and Austria-Hungary was less limiting that those between Germany and Turkey/Bulgaria. (4) Therefore, please, properly summarize the cited sources instead of insisting on the use of a poorly verified term ("satellite"). Borsoka (talk) 07:08, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

The funny thing is that during the Cold War Romania would end up being called a Soviet satellite for much less than what AusHun would be called a German satellite for here. Seems to be a label of convenience, almost. Anyway, for me personally it is hard to think of it as anything else when a country surrenders control of its entire army to another country. Numerous sources have no qualms calling Romania during WW2 a Nazi satellite for agreeing to give its armies to German-led army groups, but when Austria-Hungary does it in WW1...crickets. As stated before, I can bring up an additional source which calls AusHun a satellite of Germany by September 1916. Also, I think it's really rich/hypocritical to dismiss a single source as "PoV" whilst we have plenty of articles without any sources at all, and many more relying on a single source. By this same logic, shouldn't all those articles be nixed altogether? And - again - I actually have two sources for the September satellite AusHun thing, just didn't want to overcrowd the paragraph: 1. Transylvania1916 (talk) 08:17, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your clarification. No, it is not funny: the status of the countries of the Soviet Block under Stalin can hardly be regarded similar to the status of Austria-Hungary during the world war. If the use of the term can be verified, we can use it, but we should also explain it. Borsoka (talk) 10:06, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Can I please request that you re-add my edits, but amended according to your suggestions? I for one, am quite tired of this tug of war. Transylvania1916 (talk) 10:09, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I do not want to edit this article for the time being. Borsoka (talk) 10:14, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Fine, then tell me if this is right. I'd see fit to make 3 amends: fluff up the paragraph with more details, add the source above, and not include the satellite status in the infobox since it can be regarded as disputable. Transylvania1916 (talk) 10:19, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

You have not right, you try to interpret a war time military cooperation as a constitutional change in Empire of Austria or Kingdom of Hungray, it also did not effect the sovereignty of diplomatic life either. And you use so called "not enough good sources", neither a military historian or a political historians can be considered as expert in legal history and constitutional history. --Liltender (talk) 20:37, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Liltender you should not edit WP. You were banned from editing. Your above remarks show you have been unable to learn how to edit. Borsoka (talk) 02:30, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

I for one changed my mind. I wash my hands of this whole ordeal. I am thoroughly disgusted by everything that transpired, and thus - rest assured - I shall not interfere with this article ever again. Transylvania1916 (talk) 09:27, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Official langauges

As for official languages of empire, Czech and Slovene had some official status in Bohemia and Moravia and in Carniola as so called „landesübliche“ Sprachen (see german wiki). As for Czech, provincial Codes in Bohemia and Moravia were published first in Czech and than in German (since 1850). The same is true for most of other official publication. Since 1880, there was explicit duty for officials in Bohemia and Moravia to uphold the status of Czech language in outer administration. At the municipal level, czech was the sole official language in many cities in Bohemia and Moravia (including Prague, since 1861). There were severe struggles to promote czech as obligate language of inner administration for the rest of 19th century (and for the rest of duration of Habsburg monarchy), which failed to enforce due to german nationalist resistance. But in a sense, it was pointless struggle from both sides. Actually, no law upheld any inner official language (German, Czech or any other). And because of plenty of Czech officials in Austrian administration, there was in effect quite a lot Czech language administration, if this or this particular official happened to be Czech. As for Slovene, I dont know exactly about status of Slovene in Carniolan inner or outer administration. But I know for sure, that Slovene was also recognized as landesübliche Sprache. And because Slovenes constituted 90% of inhabitants in Carniola, it can be assumed that Slovene also held at least some official status. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.103.101.201 (talk) 11:03, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Dear Ip,

I re-added your comment properly - I did not notice when I edited the page -, as you say you don't know for sure regarding Carniola...but please provide some source about Czech, for the period between 1867-1918, I checked the German wiki (4 pages with the topic but I did not find related)...(KIENGIR (talk) 01:49, 2 May 2020 (UTC))

Here is copied text from german wiki: "Amtssprache: Deutsch und Ungarisch sowie in Österreich „landesübliche“ Sprachen: Polnisch, Böhmisch, Serbokroatisch, Slowenisch, Rumänisch, Ruthenisch, Italienisch", see https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96sterreich-Ungarn. As for Czech as language of outer administration since 1880: http://alex.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/alex?apm=0&aid=lbo&datum=18800204&zoom=2&seite=00000034&x=20&y=12 for Bohemia and http://alex.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/alex?apm=0&aid=lma&datum=18800004&seite=00000031&zoom=2 for Moravia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:1028:919D:9726:E0EE:89F7:6047:109B (talk) 17:40, 3 May 2020 (UTC) As for official status of Slovene, here are law publications of Duchy of Carniola since 1849: http://alex.onb.ac.at/tab_lkr.htm. As you can see, Slovene was also definitely not mere "spoken language". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:1028:919D:9726:E0EE:89F7:6047:109B (talk) 17:59, 3 May 2020 (UTC) Moreover, on imperial level, here is "Reichsgesetzblatt" in Czech: http://alex.onb.ac.at/tab_rbo.htm and in Slovene: http://alex.onb.ac.at/tab_rsl.htm. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:1028:919D:9726:E0EE:89F7:6047:109B (talk) 18:05, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Landesübliche is not equal with official. The fact there was a permission/regulation of translation not necessarily equal with that (i.e., Romanian is listed because of Hungary, but it was not an official language, though they could have freely Romanian newspapers, or able to use their language in a certain level, etc.). Though, for the particular cases, I'll ask some check, especially on the analysis of the two regulation regarding Bohemia and Moravia. @Ermenrich:, could you read through as well what I refer to the latter sentence (the first two link the IP have shown)? Am I right with my assumption, or not? Thank you(KIENGIR (talk) 21:30, 3 May 2020 (UTC))

I have never said, that "Landesübliche" equals official. I just said that "Landesübliche" means limited recognition. Definitely not equal to German or Hungarian, but more or less comparable to Italian, Polish or Croatian (which were also not fully equal to German or Hungarian). Czech and Slovene were never equal to German or Hungarian, I don't argue about this. But status Czech and Slovenes, as "Landesübliche Sprachen", was more or less comparable to other "Landesübliche Sprachen" as Polish, Italian or Croatian. On the other hand, Slovak, Yidish or Romani were just mere spoken language without any official status and even without any recognition. So I think, as for languages of empire, it would be more accurate to view as three layers: Firstly two official languages, German and Hungarian, secondly "Landesübliche Sprachen", i. e. Polish, Croatian, Italian, etc. including Czech and Slovene, and thirdly other spoken languages (i. e. without any official status) as Slovak, Romani or Yiddish.

Romani or Gypsy languages did not represent large community, their population was only around 1%. Yiddish was considered officially as a type of German language. If their local ratio reached the 20%, the Slovaks and Romanians could use their language in legal courts in public administration, they had newspapers too. They had even right to establish ethnic minority political parties and run on the elections. All of these things were unimaginable in other countries of Europe, because the pre WW1 Western European legal systems did not even know the minority rights.--Liltender (talk) 08:00, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

All I said was that status of Czech and Slovene as "Landesübliche Sprachen" was much more similar to other "Landesübliche Sprachen" (as for example Polish) but definitely not Slovak and other language which lacked such status. Nothing more, nothing less. By the way, every private enterpreneur, even in Western Europe, could print newspaper in whatever language he want. There was not any legal prohibition in lets say UK to print newspaper in Welsh language. See example of Welsh language newspaper from 19th century: https://newspapers.library.wales/browse/4239147.

In July 1849, the Hungarian Revolutionary Parliament proclaimed and enacted the world's first laws on ethnic and minority rights. It gave minorities the freedom to use their mothertongue at local administration, at tribunals, in schools, in community life and even within the national guard of non-Magyar councils. However these laws were overturned after the united Russian and Austrian armies crushed the Hungarian Revolution of 1848. After the Kingdom of Hungary reached the Compromise with the Habsburg Dynasty in 1867, one of the first acts of its restored Parliament was to pass a Law on Nationalities (Act Number XLIV of 1868).

The situation of minorities in Hungary were muchmore better than in contemporary pre WW1 Europe. Other highly multiethnic /multinational countries were: France Russia and UK.

See the multi-national UK:

The situation of Scottish Irish and Welsh people in "Britain" during the English hegemony is well known. They utmost forgot their original language,only English language cultural educational institutions existed. The only language was English in judiciary procedures and in offices and public administrations. In Wales Welsh children were beaten by their teachers if they spoke Welsh among each others. This was the infamous “Welsh Not” policy... See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Not The contemporary Irish question and tensions are well documented. The situation of Ireland was even a more brutal story. It was not a real "United" Kingdom, it was rather a greater England.

See the multiethnic France:

In the era of the Great French revolution, only 25% of the population of Kingdom of France could speak the French language as mothertongue. In 1870, France was still similar-degree multi-ethnic state as Hungary, only 50% of the population of France spoke the French language as mothertongue. The other half of the population spoke Occitan, Catalan, Corsican, Alsatian, West Flemish, Lorraine Franconian, Gallo, Picard or Ch’timi and Arpitan etc... Many minority languages were closer to Spanish languages or Italian language than French) French governments banned minority language schools, minority language newspapers minority theaters. They banned the usage of minority languages in offices , public administration, and judiciary procedures. The ratio of french mothertongue increased from 50% to 91% during the 1870-1910 period!!!

The situation in German Empire was well known (Polish territories)

Just see the high contrast between Kingdom of Hungary and contemporary pre WW1-era Europe:

The so-called "Magyarization" was not so harsh as the contemporary western European situation, because the minorities were defended by minority rights and laws. Contemporary Western European legal systems did not know the minority rights, therefore they loudly and proudly covered up their minorities. 1.Were there state sponsored minority schools in Western European countries? NO. 2. How many official languages existed in Western-European states? Only 1 official language! 3. Could minorities use their languages in the offices of public administration in self-governments , in tribunals in Western Europe? No, they couldn't. 4. Did the minorities have own fractions and political parties in the western European parliaments ? No, no they hadn't. 5. What about newspapers of ethnic minorities in Western Europe? They did not exist in the West.... We can continue these things to the infinity.--Liltender (talk) 10:57, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Do you realize that this is completely off topic? No one except you has mentioned Western Europe. Super Ψ Dro 11:37, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I know it well, that facts (and international comparisons) hurt some people (Slovaks Romanians etc.), when they realize, that they had such extra unique rights in Hungary or Austria, which was not enjoyed by any minority groups in Western Europe. Why? Because it undermines their identity and "national history" which was built upon the false culture of victimhood since they started to learn their "national interpretation" of history in their elementary schools.--Liltender (talk) 11:54, 4 May 2020 (UTC)