Talk:Ireland

Bid to add clarification to the etymology section

This is merely a minor edit in my opinion, but I consider it important for clarification. The current section reads like this The names Ireland and Éire derive from Old Irish Ériu, a goddess in Irish mythology first recorded in the ninth century. The etymology of Ériu is disputed but may derive from the Proto-Indo-European root *h2uer, referring to flowing water

I have a number of problems with this on a few grounds, first it doesn't explain or clarify what the other etymology is suppose to be, what is the other etymology that's disputed? 2. The actual source states Various etymologies have been offered, the most recent one purposes the meaning as place on, at, by, near the water, stream, based on the proto-indo-European h2uer (flowing water) If this is true which I doubt, the actual meaning of Eire may mean something like edge-water-ocean or by the stream, possibly relating to Ireland at the edge of the known world. Some editor on here didn't like me adding that for whatever reason, which he didn't give any explanation why and started a editing war with me even after I fixed grammatical errors. I also added why the grey wolf in Ireland went extinct which is due to British colonialism and I gave the date as to when this happened fully sourced. These are all legitimate contributions to this article and kept being reverted. There's such a thing as to little information.

This is what I will be adding to the etymology section and the fauna section.

The names Ireland and Éire derive from Old Irish Ériu, a goddess in Irish mythology first recorded in the ninth century. The etymology of Ériu is thought to mean Abundant land or prosperous land derived from a Proto-Indo-European word meaning fat, this etymology is disputed. Various etymologies have been offered, the most recent one purposes the meaning as *by the stream, or edgewater based on the proto-indo-European h2uer(flowing water)

If you can come up with a better interpretation as to what it means I would like to hear it.

The grey wolf went extinct in Ireland as recently as 1786 primarily due to British colonialism

If there's no objection to this I will be adding it in a few days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrick Mcdermott25 (talk • contribs) 20:58, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Nope. No need to start POV-pushing without proper sources. The Banner talk 22:03, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Oh, hello, SosaysPatrickMolloy! New surname/account? You're welcome to contribute, once your additions follow our policies, including WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NPOV, wP:N, WP:NOR, etc. Have a read of the new user guides. Use edit summaries, don't take a reversion as a personal attack, and if something appears contentious, consider getting consensus prior to making the edit. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:27, 31 March 2020 (UTC) (Also, please don't put references on the talk page - it's unnecessary and annoying! Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:29, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Good advice, please heed it, though it is fine to cite references on talk pages. And add WP:SOCK to the list of your required reading. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:47, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Do I need permission from the elitism club to add legitimate sources now? that would make this a popularity contest rather than a article about facts about Ireland. What do you consider proper sources? who are you to decide? I don't know who SosaysPatrickMolloy is all I did was see his comments. The sources I added are legitimate. Saying I am POV pushing when the sources legitimately say what I said is not POV pushing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.135.73 (talk) 00:40, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Familiarise yourself with Wikipedia:Identifying and using independent sources and Wikipedia:Reliable sources. ww2censor (talk) 09:49, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

It literally says in the sources used what I want to add, one of which is already in use. POV pushing is happening but not by me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.76.5.64 (talk) 07:51, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

References

Removal of the British Isles tag

I, with all due respect, ask that the tag British Isles be taken down. This may have been factually accurate many years ago, but we have moved a long way since then. Northern Ireland can be recognized as a member of the British Isles but not the republic. Our predeccesors not fight so hard for so many years to still be thrown in with the British. Please remove it as it is offensive. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.126.149.174 (talk • contribs) 11:09, 17 April 2020

Unfortunately the term British Isles is a geographical term, not a political one, and you can't just remove countries from geographical terms that are in us. Even in use by the Ireland government (plenty of examples available in British Isles talk pages.) Additionally your request doesn't make sense to say that Northern Ireland can appear as a member of the British Isles (you are not a member of the British Isles, it's not an organization) but the rest of the land it's geologically attached to cannot. Anyway this is an article about the entire island of Ireland, which is indeed part of the descriptive term British Isles, and this has nothing to do with governments. Canterbury Tail talk 11:52, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

It is very easy to hide behind geography but the fact is, it could be removed and renamed with one of its many alternatives, but it isn't and as such the refusal to omit it from my perspective isn't being done because of any neutral geographical point of view but rather a political one. The fact is you don't want to remove it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.126.149.174 (talk • contribs) 12:08, 17 April 2020 (UTC (UTC)

We don't remove it because it's commonly used in many reliable references, both political and non-political, and no alternative has ever been proposed that anyone consistently and reliably uses. The name does not imply any ownership or control, see also Sea of Japan, South China Sea, Irish Sea, English Channel and many other similar cases. Canterbury Tail talk 12:32, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Request denied, as this article is supposed to be neutral and not politically biased. Come back when an alternative name is mainstream in reliable sources. The Banner talk 12:22, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Ireland is a geographic article about the island not a political one about the state. British Isles is the commonly used term for the geographic group of islands of which Ireland is one. There is no political context to this inclusion. ww2censor (talk) 13:07, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I understand your thought's I really do, I am Irish diaspora so I have empathy for your argument, but like it was stated, it is a geographical term, not a political one, same way the sea between Britain and Ireland is called the Irish sea, to the discontent of some people from the Island of Great Britain. B. M. L. Peters (talk) 21:38, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm afraid you are incorrect that the geographic term is somehow neutral, devoid of a political dimension and not subject to active dispute, ww2censor. Because of British Isles naming dispute, the term is not used in any official capacity in the republic including on maps, in schoolbooks or on any material produced by Ordnance Survey Ireland. While User:Canterbury Tail is correct that there is no commonly agreed alternative term, it's certainly not accurate to describe it as politically neutral. While I sympathise with the lack of a generally accepted neutral alternative, I struggle to see how starting an article, about my island, by describing it using a term that a majority of people on this island find offensive is NPOV. Cros13 (talk) 01:18, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Ireland separated from Great Britain?

The current version contains what seems to be a non-sequiteur: "By 16,000 BC, rising sea levels caused by ice melting caused Ireland to become separated from Great Britain[14]. Later, around 6000 BC, Great Britain became separated from continental Europe."

If Great Britain had yet not separated from continental Europe, then surely Ireland separated from continental Europe and not Great Britain, which would not exist as an island for another 10,000 years. The cited source shows land bridges between Ireland and what is now Scotland disappearing as sea levels rose. It seems like a clearer way to put it would be: "By 16,000 BC, rising sea levels caused by ice melting caused Ireland to become separated from the European mainland, at what is now Scotland." However, my edit to that effect was reverted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lfp (talk • contribs) 14:38, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Your edit to that effect was removed because the source contradicts your claim. The source clearly states it separated from Britain. If you can find a better reliable source to support the new wording then that's fine, but your edits are not supported by the source currently supporting that section. Canterbury Tail talk 14:45, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Your edit would assume that readers understood that Great Britain was still attached to the European mainland at that time. Many would not know that. So, it's clearer to readers to say that Ireland separated from GB, and then - later - Britain separated from Europe. To put it another way, the land that is now known as GB was the area from which Ireland separated, and the fact that GB was not itself an island at that point is not really relevant. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:23, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2020

Ireland is not one of the British Isles. 78.17.152.18 (talk) 00:17, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: No request. See British Isles naming dispute; and surely some consensus decision somewhere earlier on this talk page or it's archives. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 01:29, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Languages

The actual name of the English dialect spoken in Ireland is, Hiberno-English, not simply English. Shelta should be added as it is an official language according to the government. It has the same status as Hiberno-English, Irish, and Ulster Scots. Also Shelta is considered a secret language by its speakers, so I wasn't able to find a name translation for the island of Ireland, but if someone is able to find it, I recommend adding it. B. M. L. Peters (talk) 19:18, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

References please and also sign your comments -----Snowded ^TALK 04:21, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

The Constitution:

ARTICLE 8

1 The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

2 The English language is recognised as a second official language. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 05:53, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

That's for one government. Remember this article is about a landmass, not a state. There are two governments on the island. So talk about languages being government protected must be handled with transparency here as it is currently worded as if the government of the RoI is the government of the landmass, which it obviously isn't. I'd worry about using terms such as according to the government etc, and actually stay away from government declarations. Fine to use things like census figures from both and tally them I'd guess to get the top languages, but we can't put a language on the landmass and say it's because a government says so. Canterbury Tail talk 12:03, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

"The actual name of the English dialect spoken in Ireland" is not what the infobox is meant to display. English is the language spoken in Ireland, just as English (not American English) is the language spoken in the United States. I'm reverting that addition. Scolaire (talk) 12:00, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

That is a good point, I support leaving it, however when hovering over it, or clicking on it, it should be directed to Hiberno-English possibly? Hiberno-English is the dialect spoken in Northern Ireland as well I am almost positive, it is more than English with an Irish accent, the difference is in pronunciation of words, and differing vocabulary. Thanks for leaving Shelta however as it is a constitutionally protected language on the island, one of four. B. M. L. Peters (talk) 19:18, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

If you read the Hiberno-English article, it describes Hiberno-English as "the set of English dialects natively written and spoken within the island of Ireland". So should the field be expanded to Ulster English, South-West Irish English, Dublin English, New Dublin English, Ulster Irish, Connacht Irish, Munster Irish, Ulster Scots and Shelta? How would hovering work there? Scolaire (talk) 19:49, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Hiberno-English (or as some still call it, "Irish English") is not a dialect, it is "the ways English is spoken in Ireland" - and that "ways" is deliberate, as there is not some homogenous form. Except that many, notably in Northern Ireland, but some elsewhere too, might see themselves as speaking some "more standard" English. And that is exactly the problem - this is a slightly vague concept, with added words and minor grammar tweaks in different parts of the island of Ireland - see the list of varietals given by Scolaire above. And then some of this is not academically solid either - I think you'd have quite an argument as to whether "New Dublin English" exists at all). For the purposes of the infobox, neither direct linking, nor a hover, to Hiberno-English seems appropriate, no more than this is done for other polities (we don't talk at the article headline level of Canadian English, Singlish, Indian English, SA English, Barbadian English, etc., though each has distinct characteristics and dozens to thousands of specific words.)

Shelta, or cant as some used to call it, as spoken by 6,000-8,000 as far as I recall (under 2% of the population), is *not* constitutionally protected - the languages with constitutional status exist only in one jurisdiction, and are two (see quote above). However, it does have a distinct identity, history and speaking population, and as a native language, should be recorded, yes. Note that there are probably more speakers of some "guest" languages, but infoboxes are not meant to list every language with a moderate percentage of speakers. SeoR (talk) 21:42, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Re. Shelta, I've double-checked, including under the multiple other names (Gammon, Pavee, etc.), and the statement "has the same status as Hiberno-English, Irish, and Ulster Scots" is simply not supported. The UK has no official language, but English is often required for certain purposes, and for Northern Ireland, some specific provisions apply to Irish, and to Ulster Scots (but even then, authorities disagree on whether to classify it as a language or a dialect), and the Republic of Ireland has very clear first status for Irish, second for English, and limited provisions for Ulster Scots - and very little provision indeed about Shelta, not least because it is a secret language (and so, to answer a question above, there is no common awareness of a word for "Ireland" as the publicly-shared vocabulary is tiny). With increased recognition for the status of Irish Travellers, things may change, but this would also be a matter for the UK, including especially Northern Ireland and Wales - it is worth remembering that UK speakers of Shelta vastly outnumber those from the Republic of Ireland (by a factor of 10+). SeoR (talk) 21:59, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

You've left out Irish Sign Language (50,000 speakers, including 5,000 Deaf, in RoI, where it has some legal status, and 1,500+ in NI), more than Ulster Scots (16,000 fluent, 30-35,000 able and maybe 90-100,000 with some ability) or Shelta, British Sign Language (3,500 speakers in NI, and a further number with the hybrid NI Sign Language, neither of which has much formal recognition). Not to mention the hundreds of thousands whose home language, or joint home language is not English (or for small numbers outside the Gaeltacht) Irish, with over 130,000 Polish speakers, 50,000 French, 30-35,000 each for Romanian, Lithuanian and Spanish, 28,000 German speakers, 21,000 each of Russian and Portuguese (split between Lusitanian and Brazilian), and 15-20,000 each with Chinese, Arabic or Italian.83.220.236.109 (talk) 23:46, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

In Shelta, Ireland is Rilantus, England Palantus, Wales Mukya, while in Cant (not, please note folks, exactly the same language) America is Grut Munkree. Connaught is Mwikamo, Ulster Lutra Munkree, Munster Swurta Munkree and Dublin Avari Tom. I hope that helps.83.220.236.109 (talk) 23:51, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for allowing Shelta to remain, as there are four protected languages on the island as a whole. B. M. L. Peters (talk) 20:24, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Any evidence they're protected in Northern Ireland as well as RoI? You keep talking as if Ireland (island) is a single whole, not 100% sure you're aware of this. Canterbury Tail talk 20:30, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Shelta has very limited status in the Republic of Ireland, and as far as I could discover the other day, no protection or status at all in Northern Ireland (it has maybe 6-8k speakers in RoI, reputedly just a few hundred in NI). And the positions of English and Irish are very different, and in turn those of Irish and Ulster Scots are not identical either. For the purposes of the infobox, the correct order would be based on usage, and English is overwhelmingly the main language of the island, the Gaeltachts sadly having shrunk to small areas, and even then lost some continuity of usage. But an editor above has raised a good point about sign languages, and I must look at some other infoboxes to understand if they are typically shown there. On the numbers it seems that ISL, at least, has material usage. SeoR (talk) 08:52, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Hiberno-English, by the way, is not the "official name of Irish English" or any such thing. There is no such official concept in either jurisdiction. It is an umbrella linguistic term for some ways of speaking, and additional vocabulary in different areas. I suspect that practically no one anywhere on the island would spontaneously describe themselves as speaking it, though many would have heard the term, and would appreciate the idea. SeoR (talk) 08:52, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

On a specific proposal above, to include the Shelta name for Ireland (and as an aside, are there names for RoI and NI?), first, is Rilantus verifiable and current (as many of the limited Shelta word collections are from 80-140 years ago), and second, is it appropriate, based on numbers, status, Shelta / Gammon / Cant cryptolect situation (they are meant as community secret tools), etc.? SeoR (talk) 09:02, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia but here you're missing a basic point. Is Shelta actually a full language, through which life can be fully lived? Because accounts I've read suggest that it is a limited set of words used in conversation meant to be secret. A sub-set of a language. Because it is alien to both English and Irish, while taking from both, it is not comparable to Ulster Scots, which segues into Scots and even English. Neother Traveller ethnicity nor Shelta have much protection even in Ireland. There was a big fuss about a statement by Enda Kenny in the Dail but it was not followed up with much enforceable. 37.190.57.239 (talk) 13:24, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

On the question about "language completeness," I don't know. What I have done is to dig around, but there really are few sources, the most comprehensive being something from 1937. I see Rilantus / Relantus for Ireland there, and aside from things mentioned above, Grasano for Scotland and/or England, but after >80 years, cannot assess their validity. I found mention of a modern dictionary, with words split by current-usage, usage about 50 years ago, and usage before that, but it does not seem to have an e-book form. I looked at the Languages of Ireland article too, and the sign languages are there. SeoR (talk) 13:39, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Looking at Languages of Ireland is not comparing like with like. I checked France, Germany, Italy, Iran, Japan and Nigeria (chosen randomly), and none of those had sign language in the infobox, in the Language section or anywhere else in the article. Each of those countries does have one or more sign languages. It is obviously the convention on Wikipedia that "languages" refers to spoken languages. Scolaire (talk) 12:17, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

And to forestall the argument that Ireland isn't a single state, European Union doesn't have sign languages either. Scolaire (talk) 12:21, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

That sounds sufficient to rest the ISL / BSL point for now - I see the same across multiple articles, and I think that the point made by [83.220.236.109] would need to be explored in an RFC if it is to be considered further. There is probably a valid underlying issue. As for Shelta, I conclude after further digging that it has only vague recognition, not a true legal standing, and a small speaking population, but as this is a distinct native group, its presence remains valid. The last IP-raised point re its completeness as a language would require expert input. And then scanning multiple countries makes clear that foreign languages, even with significant populations using them as primary "at home" tongues, generally do not appear. No absolutes, especially on numbers - it's all relative (look at the modest populations of a few countries with multiple official languages) - but for the sake of simplicity, four in the Ireland (and RoI, at least) infoboxes more than suffices. SeoR (talk) 14:56, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

I think the "valid underlying issue" may well merely be that so few of us are conversant in sign language. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 19:49, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Okay so it seems there's some edit warring starting on which language to put first. Since we're talking a landmass here, which has no government to make any kind of landmass wide dictates etc, I think we should just list the languages in order of number of speakers Why would you list a language that is spoken a lot less for a landmass over another which is spoken by the majority of the landmass's population. Remember we're not talking about a country here with legal languages. So that would be English first, Irish second etc. This is how the article has been ever since languages were added to the infobox. Per WP:BRD, it was boldly changed, it was reverted, now it should be discussed. Canterbury Tail talk 01:31, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. For the island, by usage: English, Irish, Ulster Scots, Shelta. Sign language to be debated further if people express interest. SeoR (talk) 10:43, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Also agreed. Really, could we stop the "officially", and "constitutionally" arguments, please, B. M. L. Peters? As pointed out on multiple occasions, we're talking about an island, a geographical landmass, not one or both of the two jurisdictions on the island. I really thought we'd left this sort of argument behind about ten years ago. Would also support including Irish Sign Language, btw. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 19:46, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Sure, I apologize, yes when talking about the island collectively, English is spoken most, so therefore it should go first. ISL is a language spoken on the island, whether it be sign or spoken, however I don't believe it is constitutionally protected, or spoken often at all, I support the general consensus related to that. B. M. L. Peters (talk) 19:55, 21 July 2020 (UTC)