Talk:List of countries by GDP (nominal)

EUROZONE INSTEAD OF EUROPEAN UNION

Better add the just the €urozone ($ 13 Tr.) instead of the European Union (E.U.) which is just a Common Market (and now the UK is not part of it...)--83.165.178.34 (talk) 13:51, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

The EU is not a country.--213.60.237.52 (talk) 13:01, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Can we add in ASEAN, Union of South American Nations, Eurasian Union, GCC and African Union as well? They are also not countries just like EU. I find it odd that EU is on the page but not the other blocs. 175.156.16.78 (talk) 05:26, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Nobody ever said it was. But the EU is an economic union working as a 'virtual country' with a powerful single market. Exactly why they are included on the list (but not as a rank). See below. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Markusw0207 (talk • contribs) 03:10, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

But it (the EU) isn't listed in the source that's been used. If the IMF estimates do not identify the EU as a separate entity for these calculations, why do we propose to know better? The European Union should be removed from the list as it's inclusion is not implied from the source that's used and it's inclusion is odd, given that no other trading bloc is included either. Kavanagh21 (talk) 01:03, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

It is listed in various sources as a distinct economic unit, the other trade blocs aren't. The page is a comparitve list of economies, not countries per se. Which is why, for example, Hong Kong is listed. Canada Jack (talk) 15:32, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Various other sources is not _this_ source. The source that this page is based on does not list it as a distinct economic unit. Also, you say the page is a comparative list of economies and not countries - the title of the page is *countries* by GDP, not *economies* by GDP. If that is the aim of the page, then perhaps the title should be changed? The EU should be removed as a distinct unit. Hong Kong is listed on the original source as Hong Kong SAR, which is a single, geographically discreet, highly autonomous area that maintains independent economic operations at the country unit. Comparing it to the EU and using it to justify the EU's inclusion is like comparing chalk and cheese. Kavanagh21 (talk) 12:17, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Evidence exists and has been presented to show that the entity of the EU is not a country and should not be included in a list of countries (especially in this case, where the constituent countries of the EU are included which double-books their representation). This list may be corrected by removing the EU constituent countries, or by removing the economic and travel agreement entity. Since each EU constituent country maintains that it is In Fact a country, and they are recognized by the world as countries, it is only reasonable to remove the EU from this list (not the constituent countries). No sources have been offered to show that the EU is a country - only that inclusion of the EU is interesting. Inclusion of other economic agreements/partnerships/unions is not appropriate here, and therefore neither is inclusion of the EU. For this reason, we will remove the EU from this list and preserve the constituent countries within this list. Nicholas SL Smith^chatter 02:16, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I invite editors to add more information about anything that is missed by this country. Per previous references recently removed from this article, parts of France and Spain are outside of Europe (and the geographical definition of Cyprus is apparently disputed). As countries, these should be included within this list, and all efforts to maintain correctness should be made to maintain the encyclopedic nature of this article. The EU has been removed from this list of countries, but should and may be included elsewhere where economic or travel zones are listed. Nicholas SL Smith^chatter 02:25, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

European Union is not a country

This article is titled "List of countries by GDP (nominal)", however the EU is not a country; it is a trading bloc, or perhaps a customs union. Within this customs union, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Sweden, and the United Kingdom retain their own currencies, central banks and monetary policy. Under these circumstances, the article cannot be considered factually accurate.

To become factually accurate, the EU should be removed from the list of "countries". Perhaps create a separate article related specifically to Trading Blocks, including NAFTA (North American Free Trade Area, Mercosur (Southern Common Market), etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:818:E659:1C00:380E:4ECE:F73A:FC88 (talk) 21:24, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

See the note: "The European Union (EU) is an economic and political union of 27 member states that are located primarily in Europe. The EU is included as a separate entity in The World Factbook of CIA because it has many attributes of independent nations, being much more than a free-trade association such as ASEAN, NAFTA, or Mercosur.[24] As the EU is not a country, China is the second ranked country on these lists." --Gtoffoletto (talk) 19:05, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

So the EU shouldn’t be on this list at all. Degen Earthfast (talk) 01:13, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I must agree, the EU may share some attributes of a nation but these attributes are not unique that nevertheless do not make the EU a country. 0123Qwerty3210 (talk) 02:10, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

The EU is treated by a lot of agencies and countries as a country . I don't see why literalism prevents us from having a comparative statistic in the list especially when the EU isn't even counted in the ranks. Romdwolf (talk) 15:45, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

In the IMF data, it's not listed along with the other countries, same with the World Bank data. It's listed separately, along with other economic entities like the CIS. We should not be trying to combine data which was separated in the original sources. LittleCuteSuit (talk) 19:13, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I removed EU from the page and I think there are no arguments for including it on this page of countries. It is not a country. Furthermore, I don't understand why EU was only included in the IMF table. If you add it back again, please add it back in World Bank and United Nations tables as well, to ensure some kind of consistency. Inloggat (talk) 13:08, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

The page is a list of economies, not countries per se, which is why many economies which aren't recognized as countries - such as Hong Kong - are listed. If others don't list it, the we don't include it. Canada Jack (talk) 14:49, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

If this page is a list of economies rather than countries then the name of the article should be changed. Further if the EU as a trading bloc is included then other trading blocs like ASEAN or NAFTA should be included to be consistent.

Finally the EU is not listed I the IMF source data so including it in this column is misleading.

Overall the EU should be removed from the list as it mislead readers. 0123Qwerty3210 (talk) 13:43, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Overall you need to read footnotes to not be mislead. EU appears in the list for informative purposes. Check that.--Manlleus (talk) 22:33, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

This isn't a sufficient response. It isn't sufficient justify the inclusion of false and misleading information by placing an onus on the reader to see a small footnote. Clarity and consistency should be our aim.

If the EU is to be included on these lists then it should be included in a seperate table from countries alongside other trading blocs and the name of the article should be changed from countries to economies. 0123Qwerty3210 (talk) 04:18, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Evidence exists and has been presented to show that the entity of the EU is not a country and should not be included in a list of countries (especially in this case, where the constituent countries of the EU are included which double-books their representation). This list may be corrected by removing the EU constituent countries, or by removing the economic and travel agreement entity. Since each EU constituent country maintains that it is In Fact a country, and they are recognized by the world as countries, it is only reasonable to remove the EU from this list (not the constituent countries). No sources have been offered to show that the EU is a country - only that inclusion of the EU is interesting. Inclusion of other economic agreements/partnerships/unions is not appropriate here, and therefore neither is inclusion of the EU. For this reason, we will remove the EU from this list and preserve the constituent countries within this list. Nicholas SL Smith^chatter 02:16, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I invite editors to add more information about anything that is missed by this country. Per previous references recently removed from this article, parts of France and Spain are outside of Europe (and the geographical definition of Cyprus is apparently disputed). As countries, these should be included within this list, and all efforts to maintain correctness should be made to maintain the encyclopedic nature of this article. The EU has been removed from this list of countries, but should and may be included elsewhere where economic or travel zones are listed. Nicholas SL Smith^chatter 02:25, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Like List of countries by GDP (PPP), this list is no different and we must to admit it for the sake of Wikipedia and keep EU figures. Propaganda and brexit are out of question here and sincerely, it has nothing to do with all that but just for enciclopedic and reference purposes as they are numerous sources, even CIA Factbook, IMF datasets and more are kind to include it and nobody is asking loudly why.--Manlleus (talk) 22:31, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

European Union isn't in IMF's list

The article (probably deliberately) gives the impression that the EU is listed in the IMF's ranking, but it isn't. It should be removed from the list because it's putting words in the IMF's mouth. And the article also implies that the other two institutions don't provide a figure for the EU, whereas the World Bank does. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.61.180.106 (talk) 20:51, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed it from the IMF's section, since it wasn't even listed in the same section as countries. It was listed in the "country groups" section, along with the Commonwealth of Indepedent States. If the EU should be included, shouldn't we include the CIS? My opinion is "nope,", this article is for individual countries (or the SARs of China, as they are in the same list in official country data). LittleCuteSuit (talk) 02:06, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Again that anti-EU campaign in Wikipedia is non-sense. EU stats are referenced and there's an explanatory note to clear confusions. Most of other country-related lists ranked EU for informative purposes but of course separate countries are numbered first. With these simple modifications to the lists or tables, no complains with arguments but only milion complains without arguments.--Manlleus (talk) 22:28, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

The European Union has made major advances in the quality of life for those who live both within and outside of its borders. Inclusion in this list is neither pro or anti-EU. Editors here need to maintain the encyclopedic nature of Wikipedia. The EU is important but it is an economic and travel union that is not a country. Many other unions such as this exist but are not listed and should not be listed. Confusing the issue by claiming that such edits are "anti-EU" or part of a "campaign" is not helpful. Nicholas SL Smith^chatter 02:28, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Create 4th column specifiying region and allow ordering on that column.

Create the categories EU, Europe, Non EU, East Asia, South Asia, North Africa, Subsaharan Africa, South America, Central America and place each country in that category in a forth column. Allow ordering by category, ie region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:140:8001:5DF0:3913:86A:AC46:D5C (talk) 12:55, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

There's no need or a duplication of information. I think is better to have a separate table for continents and regions too as informative purpose. EU appear in list of countries but just because is more than a region, specifically explained in a footnote to clear confusions.--Manlleus (talk) 22:32, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Storms in teacups

I was surprised to see the tag "This article has been nominated to be checked for its neutrality" in the heading. It's just a list of numbers copied from data published by various respectable organizations, what can be controversial about that? So I came to the talk page and found a lot of heated discussion about whether the EU is a "country", whether Palestine is sufficiently "recognized", and so on.

Wikipedians: does it matter? People come to this page to get numbers. They don't come here to discover the legal status of the EU or Palestine or Taiwan or Kosovo. Since the main purpose of the page is to supply visitors with numerical data, it seems to me that any uncertainty should be resolved in favour of inclusiveness. Perhaps the Wikipedians who want to exclude places they consider are not "proper countries" (whatever that means) could be satisfied by a disclaimer at the bottom reading "Inclusion on this page does not imply any legal status of any included entity"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Longitude2 (talk • contribs) 08:16, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the target matters more than the numbers for some editors:/ This is not the only list article that suffers from this kind of politicized nonsense. In the case of Palestine, you have the self evident stupidity that Palestine is in the UN list without a number whereas West Bank and Gaza (the same thing by a different name) is numbered in the other two lists.Selfstudier (talk) 10:06, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

The main function of this sort of list is not to show distinct countries, it is to show distinct economies. The vast majority of distinct economies are countries, but some econmoies which are listed by sources aren't necessarily countries or sovereign - and in the case of the EU are utterly unique. Those who debate which place is or is not a "country" are missing the point. Canada Jack (talk) 19:01, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

The name of the article is list of countries by GDP. Claiming that the article also represents non soverign economies seems like after the fact reasoning to justify inclusion of the EU.

It also raises the problem of the exclusion of similar economic blocs like NAFA and Asean. A consistent standardised approach needs to be adapted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 0123Qwerty3210 (talk • contribs) 01:28, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Figure 1 is not sorted correctly

Figure 1 shows countries (almost) sorted by GDP. However, India is out of order, and shown 5th. It is shown ahead of the larger UK economy. This is confusing, and someone could easily miss that India is not the 5th largest economy. Please fix. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.63.254.44 (talk) 17:54, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

 Done, thanks for pointing out. KREOH (talk) 18:40, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Hong Kong and Macau should be included on the China figure

This exclusion seems ideological, Hong Kong and Macau are recognised by almost every country as de jure and de facto self governing parts of the PRC so I see no reason they should be excluded from the Chinese figure. What are everyones' thoughts? 0123Qwerty3210 (talk) 17:49, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 15 December 2020

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved. There is a clear consensus against the move as proposed. BD2412 T 21:19, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

List of countries by GDP (nominal) → List of economies by GDP (nominal) – Including supranational entities, such as the European Union, customs unions, and continents, would better serve readers by adding relevant context and making certain economic trends clearer. Some editors have objected to inclusion of such entities because "countries" is in the title of this list, so I'm proposing moving the list to match the desired scope. We already include notable non-sovereign jurisdictions as "countries", and "economies" also includes these, possibly more comfortably. I would also be happy with "areas" or another synonym, but "economies" seems to be the most common term (even though this could also apply to a province or city) and is already used in some graphics in the list. Presumably we'd want to rename similar lists as well, if this is adopted. -- Beland (talk) 16:35, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

It was suggested to create a seperate table for trading blocs. This may be the best way to proceed while still being accurate 0123Qwerty3210 (talk) 20:16, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Are you thinking that separate table should be in this article or a separate one? I think including it here would best serve readers, so all the info is obvious and in one place. We control the title, so "accuracy" with respect to scope is judged against whatever scope we choose to set. -- Beland (talk) 14:21, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Bitholov: the current title is OK. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bitholov (talk • contribs) 16 December 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose, this would break consistency with the whole bunch of {{GDP country lists}}. It is quite common that such lists include some supranational items. No such user (talk) 16:35, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. I don't see any valid reason for change except to prop up irrelevant supranational entities that are not even real unified economies. 27.104.203.24 (talk) 09:32, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose rename, Support inclusion of supranationals (amend the inclusion criteria), possibly in a separated table.Selfstudier (talk) 15:01, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Neutrality, disputed countries, dependencies, list ranking, and italics

I think these issues are also the source of the "original research" and "confusing" tags. My proposed actions are in bold to facilitate skimming; I'm wondering if we can form consensus around any of these?

Currently "West Bank and Gaza" are included in numbered rankings, but "State of Palestine" is not. This needs to be resolved, but how to resolve it has been disputed, and also affects how other countries would be presented. See:

• Talk:List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)/Archive_8#Taiwan_should_be_italicised
• Talk:List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)/Archive_8#Countries_with_limited_recognition
• Talk:List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)/Archive_9#Numbering_of_Palestine_in_UN_list
• Talk:List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)/Archive_9#Tagging_the_article

It seems we need to affirm which entries get rank numbers and which get written in italics.

Country is a broad term which includes several classes of things, some of which have been specially marked:

• Dependent territories - Greenland, Puerto Rico, Isle of Man, Hong Kong, etc. As it happens, no dependent territories are the subject of sovereignty disputes (ignoring the perennial "should we leave?" sort of political debate which apparently doesn't affect international diplomatic recognition).
• States with limited international recognition due to disputes - North Korea, South Korea, Armenia, Cyprus, Northern Cyprus, China, Taiwan, Israel, Palestine, Kosovo, SADR, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic, Artsakh, Somaliland. These are all on the list of sovereign states.

Based on the conversation so far, and the practices on other Wikipedia by-country lists, I think it's pretty clear that the disputed/undisputed status of countries should not be indicated on this list. That status is generally not indicated on other lists. There have been arguments over whether UN recognition matters, whether both sides in a dispute should be treated the same, accusations of non-neutrality if any particular line is drawn saying some of these should be included and other excluded, and so on, all of which we can simply avoid. Some editors have also expressed a desire to separate political questions like this from the de facto economic statistics presented here; this does that. To implement this, we'd drop italics and add rankings for all sovereign states with disputed sovereignty, and adjust the wording in the intro.

It also seems clear we should continue to follow the sources when deciding which countries should be counted separately or included in a larger sovereign state (e.g. should Kosovo be counted as part of Serbia). That also pretty much answers the slippery slope question of what entities are included as countries at all. Either the UN, IMF, or World Bank have stats for Artsakh, or they don't, but to keep numbers comparable we shouldn't go off and try to find one-off sources for such countries anyway.

I like the practices of List of countries by population (United Nations) to indicate sovereign-dependency relationships. It puts footnotes on sovereign states to indicate whether or not a dependency or disputed territory has been included. For dependencies, the name of the sovereign is indicated in parentheses next to the name of the dependency. This makes it easy for readers to add up, say, the GDP of the U.S. and all its territories. Dependency names are also presented in italics, which is perhaps helpful to distinguish them, but I could go either way on whether or not that should be done on this list. Dispute relationships are not indicated (e.g. according to our own list, Taiwan is not a dependency of China, so there's no relationship listed there).

As for ranking dependencies, there are several options:

• Don't rank anything. Rationale: Sources don't use numbered rankings, and numeric rankings of any given country are going to depend on whether or not larger disputed and dependent countries are included.
• Rank everything that's not included in something else. Rationale: The rankings are just there for convenience, to know how far down the list you've scrolled, and to know where a country stands if you happen to sort alphabetically to make them easier to find. Not ranking dependencies means that when sorted alphabetically, readers won't know where in the list they stand. Consistency of numerical values lower down in the list is not important; whether a country ranks 180th or 200th really does depend on what definition of "country" one uses, and those definitions vary across sources.
• Rank only sovereign entities. Rationale: It matters to readers that e.g. Hong Kong not be counted in determining the national rank of Vietnam, because Hong Kong is not sovereign. Though readers could figure this out with the "rank everything" option, this makes it more convenient.

Many other by-country lists use the rank everything that's not included in something else approach, and I think I would be in favor of doing that on this list. It avoids classification disputes among editors, seems to be convenient for readers, and carries the most information possible in that column. The only things we wouldn't rank would be rows which are double-counting, such as trade blocs or continents or the world total, if we should choose to include those in the same table. I'm dubious about the "rank sovereign entities" option, both because I'm skeptical readers actually feel strongly about that, and because it seems somewhat judgemental. -- Beland (talk) 22:32, 16 December 2020 (UTC)