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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Thelostone41 (talk | contribs) at 00:01, 1 August 2021 (→‎RfC on Olivia Rodrigo's profession as a singer-songwriter). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 20 January 2021 and 30 April 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): CarolinepowerUD (article contribs).

Songwriter

Multiple sources called her a songwriter. Then why is it not included in her infobox or lead sentence? BawinV (talk) 07:51, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@IJBall: You're abusing WP:FORUM, which only talks about personal opinions. Songwriting is a profession of Rodrigo according to several verified publications. My opinion has no job here. How does this constitute WP:FORUM? BawinV (talk) 07:54, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Geraldo Perez: "she has cowriting credits on one song" FALSE. She has three songs, out of which "All I Want" lists her as the sole songwriter in its credits. Irrespective of this, multiple sources explicitly call her a songwriter. here, here, here et cetera. BawinV (talk) 08:00, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I would class Rodrigo as a singer-songwriter, since she does not write songs for other artists as a profession. Although it is early in her music career, she has been described by RS as a singer-songwriter, and she has had predominant writing credits in her two (released) songs. – DarkGlow (✉) 12:08, 12 January 2021 (UTC) [reply]
@DarkGlow: Do you mean you "would not class Rodrigo as a singer-songwriter"? @BawinV: Whether it's WP:NOTFANSITE or WP:NOTPROMO, it amounts to the same thing – "fan" editors are always pushing for "resume bloat" and list "professions" for subjects which either aren't primary or aren't relevant. She absolutely is not a "singer-songwriter" as I think DarkGlow is saying. Doing something once doesn't make it a "career" either, especially a notable one to list in the lede. Writing one song by herself does not make "songwriter" a notable career, any more than directing one episode of a TV series makes one a "director". Is Rodrigo notable for an "actress"? Certainly. Is Rodrigo notable for being a "singer"? It's still early, but by now, probably yes. Is she notable for being a "songwriter"? Certainly not! Most people would not even know that she does that. Maybe later on if she writes more songs, but not now. And, again, WP:ONUS applies – just become some "sources" (and you never have indicated which sources) call her a "songwriter" does not put any obligation on Wikipedia to list that as a notable "career" or "profession" in the lede. This can be mentioned elsewhere in prose, but it's not a ledeworthy profession at this time. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:26, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My first comment was written on a few hours of awful sleep so let me completely rephrase it – I wouldn't ever class Rodrigo as a "songwriter" until she writes for another artist, such as Ariana Grande does. I would class Rodrigo as a "singer-songwriter", but only in time, when she has several notable, charting songs that she has penned. She is certainly on her way to being classed as such, but like what IJBall stated, doing something 1-2 times does not carve out a career narrative for the subject. – DarkGlow (✉) 15:38, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@IJBall: "and you never have indicated which sources" There are literally three sources that I've cited above. BawinV (talk) 17:22, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
OK, missed those because they weren't inline. The only one of those worth anything is Rolling Stone, and they use "singer-songwriter" all of once in the article (and "songwriter" by itself not at all). But again, singer-songwriter has a very specific definition on Wikipedia, WP:ONUS applies, and one example of this does not make it ledeworthy. Bottom line: She is not notable as either a "songwriter" or as a "singer-songwriter" at this point. That may change in the future, but it's where things are right now. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:28, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Revisited: April 2021

Seems like lately there has been more coverage and focus on her songwriting now that "Drivers License" has been out for some time, and that she has a second song. For me, I feel that she should still definitely be labelled as one on her page, but I think it is best if we just all wait it out until her album comes out to see if her status as a songwriter will be cemented or not. Nahnah4 (talk | contribs) 20:50, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Songwriter is reserved for people who write multiple songs, by themselves. It's not for people who co-write songs, or only contribute some lyrics. At this point in her career, Rodrigo almost certainly doesn't qualify, and listing it is as an actual "career/occupation" for her is YA Wikipedia example of "resume inflation". Maybe in a few years, but not now. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:58, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@IJBall: Then why is Justin Bieber listed as a singer-songwriter when he only writes with writing camps? There was a discussion about that at Talk:Justice (Justin Bieber album) about this, if you could contribute to that, that would be great. As well, I agree with your points, Rodrigo isn't quite a singer-songwriter just yet. D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 21:03, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Because, frankly, a lot of editors, esp. in the musicians area, seem to be editing things more from the standpoint as fans than as objective Wikipedia editors. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:05, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I've been thinking. From what I have seen happen to other editors, puffery writing is actually really easy, and, once a habit has been made, it's hard to break. Some editors try to get little side jobs like songwriting and production on the same level as what the artist is known for (usually just singing but it could also be acting, songwriting, etc), and that needs to stop, even though it's all coming from a good place. D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 21:12, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, I just want to put it straight that I am still viewing this from an objective standpoint, and that I am not engaging in the POV of a "fan". That is why I am willing to wait till the album is out so we can all see the songwriting credits and see if she has written all of her songs on her debut song as the lead credit songwriter, before we decide on a consensus. (P.S. I don't think we need to "wait a few years" to properly qualify someone as a songwriter, especially if every single music media outlet out there is calling her one, and if her songwriting is the basis of the success behind her career. I think self-penning the lyrics to all her tracks in her debut album would definitely qualify her as a "singer-songwriter", which would be different from "singer and songwriter"). (edit conflict) – I do agree with Doggy though, I think some editors push it a little too far with adding the side gigs and stuff. Nahnah4 (talk | contribs) 21:15, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
1) Writing "all of the lyrics", but not the songs (i.e. melodies) themselves means, by definition, she's not "songwriter". 2) She absolutely does not appear to be a "singer-songwriter" – please look at that the discussion Doggy54321 linked to upthread – that includes some very good examples of actual "singer-songwriters". (Again, where did so many music editors get the idea that singer + songwriter = "singer-songwriter" – the latter has a very specific definition, that very few "singers + songwriters" actually meet.) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:21, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Yes, when she releases her album, we will need to re-assess this. But, considering she has written/co-written four songs out of her 13-song discography (including all the HSMTMTS songs for which she is credited as an artist on), and only wrote one out of those four by herself, I think it's a bit puffy of us to equally credit her as a singer, songwriter and actress. If she writes all the songs on her album (which she has said she has), that would change the numbers to 13 songs written out of a 22-song discography (59%), which is better than 4/13 (31%). Even if sources already call her a singer-songwriter, it just feels puffy. I think the best move is to wait until the album drops, see what she is credited for (keep in mind that singer-songwriter means she needs to play instruments as well), and go from there. Update/Respond to IJBall: IJB is 100% correct. Songwriter = lyrics & melodies. Some labels like to put this on physical releases instead of "songwriter" (see Positions (album) for an example). Singer-songwriter refers to someone who sings on their songs, writes their songs and plays instruments on their songs. Taylor Swift is the only person I can think of right now that qualifies as a singer-songwriter. Singer & songwriter is a combination of a singer and a songwriter, nothing more. D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 21:32, 16 April 2021 (UTC) (updated 21:38, 16 April 2021 (UTC))[reply]
(edit conflict) I believe she also writes her own melodies (per NYT interview, 3:23 mark), but it's true, maybe it's still too early to tell if she is one. I just wanted to re-open this discussion because the previous discussion occurred only a mere few days since her song was released, and now that she has an upcoming album scheduled for release, I was just thinking that that could possibly be indicate if she can prove her status as an actual singer-songwriter, or not. Nahnah4 (talk | contribs) 21:34, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that this discussion should be re-visited when the Sour album releases. It is expected that Olivia will co-write every song on this album, as she has emphasised her involvement in songwriting on multiple occasions. The k nine 2 (talk) 10:39, 17 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Revisited after album release: May 2021

@Nahnah4, IJBall, and The k nine 2: The album has been released, so I thought we could revisit this. Rodrigo has co-writing credits on all the tracks but two, which she wrote by herself. Thoughts? D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 14:47, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Rodrigo has the lead writer credits on every track, which alone is enough for "songwriter" to be added to her professions. The self-written tracks are an added bonus. Apart from this, Rodrigo had stressed that she is, first and foremost, a songwriter, in almost every interview regarding the album: Interview magazine, Elle, The Face, NME, Billboard, Nylon etc. BawinV (talk) 15:13, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think we can officially call her a singer-songwriter. Nahnah4 (talk | contribs) 16:54, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with attached references above that "songwriter" should be added as one of her professions since she co-writes every track on her album. The k nine 2 (talk) 17:00, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

SOUR has been released, Rodrigo should definitely be listed as a songwriter. She has written a part of every song, and to not list her as this would be misinformation. TheWeekdayz (talk) 23:23, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It wouldn't necessarily be misinformation, as not listing her as a songwriter is not false or inaccurate information (per Google). Taylor Swift co-produced every single song on her last release, but that doesn't necessarily make her a record producer. I am not arguing against the fact that Rodrigo is a songwriter, but I am just saying it is not misinformation to not list her as such. D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 03:05, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For the zillionth time, not all "singers" and "songwriters" are "singer-songwriters" – the latter has a very specific definition that few actually meet. While I sill think adding "songwriter" is WP:TOOSOON I'm not going to bother to fight that, but I absolutely oppose adding "singer-songwriter" at this time... And, FTR, I also absolutely agree with/support this recent reversion. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:02, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@IJBall: Singer-songwriters are musicians who write, compose and perform their own musical material, including lyrics and melodies. Rodrigo does write, compose and perform her own musical material, including both lyrics and melodies, so how is she not a singer-songwriter? For example, in this recent interview, she played a voice memo from her phone that shows her performing the first version of "Brutal" to Dan Nigro. "Brutal"'s writers are Rodrigo and Nigro, so we can come to the conclusion that Rodrigo must have written that first version, both lyrics and melodies, by herself, as Nigro had not heard the song up until that point (BTW, I really don't care that this is synthesis, I'm trying to prove a point). Then, she goes onto detail how Nigro remarked how she could write a better verse, so they wrote it together. Furthermore, two songs on the album ("Enough for You" and "Happier") were written solely by Rodrigo, which means she wrote both the lyrics and melodies for both songs without any help. So, could you please explain why you don't think Rodrigo is a singer-songwriter? Thanks! D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 22:13, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Did you read the entire lede?

Singer-songwriters are musicians who write, compose and perform their own musical material, including lyrics and melodies. In the United States, the category is built on the folk-acoustic tradition,[1] although this role has transmuted through different eras of popular music. Singer-songwriters often provide the sole accompaniment to an entire composition or song, typically using a guitar or piano. (emphasis mine)

She needs to regularly play something like a guitar (and only a guitar) while singing material she wrote. Usually, it takes years to get a reputation as one of these. In pop, pretty much only Taylor Swift does, AFAIK. Regardless, it's WP:OR to call her that if RS's don't (and, no – a single RS calling her that doesn't cut it) – "singer and songwriter" is fully sufficient for now... Can we please stop trying to resume-inflate our BLP's, especially those of relatively new musical artists?! If they are any of the things people keep wanting to add to the articles, eventually WP:RSs will make that clear. In the meantime, WP:NOHURRY and WP:V apply. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:20, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And, while we're on the subject, I also support this recent reversion by Amaury – short descriptions are supposed to be exactly as it sounds (i.e. as short as possible), and Rodrigo's notability comes primarily from being an actress and a singer, with any "songwriting" aspect being completely secondary at this point. For now, the short description should be restricted to "actress and singer". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:26, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@IJBall: Where in the article it says that you have to provide your own accompaniment, especially when the article says singer-songwriters often provide the sole accompaniment? If you look at credits, I don't see Swift, Lorde, Adele or any other singer-songwriter often providing sole accompaniment on tracks. Besides, WP:WINARS, we shouldn't treat an article (regardless of the fact that it is a vital article) like it's some sort of sacred text, let's move on. To your other point, I think that the short description and the lead sentence should provide the same information (example), so I believe that you're either in or out on an occupation, not "we could add it here but not here". I think this because lead sentences and short descriptions are both supposed to summarize what the subject of the article is in a few words, so I don't see how one summary should include something that another summary shouldn't. D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 19:19, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Just wanna add, If IJBall is the only one opposing this, we could still technically add "singer-songwriter" because, you know, WP:CONSENSUS. I'm not sure why you are so incredibly dogmatic about this and you just keep insisting that her songwriting is "secondary" when her songwriting is the sole reason behind her ENTIRE success – basically she is known to be a singer-songwriter at this point. It doesn't matter what you think because the definition fits her. You can't just be a "singer" if you're the sole songwriter of your own material – which in fact, is already pretty rare in pop music even. You want performances of her playing an instrument while singing the material she wrote? Well, here's some of them: Jimmy Fallon, Grammy Museum, MTV Push, NYT interview (3:26 mark), this performance of her playing "only a guitar" like you asked – these should all be enough evidence and fits your own definition of a "singer-songwriter". It's also not WP:OR because major publications have also labelled her a "singer-songwriter": per NME, NYT, Elle, Billboard and Rolling Stone. I'm not sure what you're on about, when all of these are easily accessible to you on the Internet and you don't even put in the slightest effort to look it up at all. Cheers, Nahnah4 (talk | contribs) 07:23, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Would also like to call BawinV into this discussion for his thoughts on this. Nahnah4 (talk | contribs) 07:39, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I do not know why IJBall is using Wikipedia as a source for Rodrigo's profession as a singer-songwriter (a Wikipedia article is never a source, especially when the singer-songwriter is not even a good article?) when there are many sources from reliable sites calling her a singer-songwriter? The age of an artist's career has nothing to do with the artist's profession. IJBall's argument here feels like it's treating "singer-songwriter" as some kind of legendary accomplishment that is bestowed to one very deep into their career. No; singer-songwriter is just a person who writes (both melodies & lyrics) on musical instruments and sings their songs. Rodrigo is very clearly a singer-songwriter. And our editors' personal opinions shouldn't even matter when, beyond the above linked videos of Rodrigo writing and playing her music, there are written sources out there: New York Times designates her a "singer-songwriter and actress", and here's more: 1, 2, 3, 4. I say let's stick to the sources. BawinV (talk) 09:50, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I believe we have reached a consensus here, and BawinV has added "songwriter" in the article. Nahnah4 (talk | contribs) 10:31, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nahnah4: Yes. Every contributor to this discussion (including myself just in case I didn't make it clear) supports the addition of "songwriter". D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 19:25, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Which wasn't the issue we were discussing – nobody is now objecting to putting "singer and songwriter" in the lede (I don't like it, but I have withdrawn any formal objection to this). But that's not the same thing as singer-songwriter, though nobody here seems to care about the distinction. So, whatever... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:49, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I know that. I was clarifying, just in case Nahnah, Bawin or anyone else thought that we came to a consensus to add "singer-songwriter" to the article, which is not true. Also – I recognize that there is a distinction between "singer and songwriter" and "singer-songwriter". Because of the fact that different users have told me different things, I'm confused as to what the distinction is, but that doesn't change the fact that I know there is a distinction. D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 13:00, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

TIME calls Rodrigo a singer-songwriter too. There are too many sources for us to not address her as one in the article. If this discussion is gonna stall or become inactive, then in 3 days or so, I'll be bold and add singer-songwriter to all her articles. Regards. BawinV (talk) 17:59, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Another source, this time Billboard, referring to Rodrigo as a singer-songwriter. The subject of this discussion topic is very strongly sourced; and since there isn't any opposition, I'm making the edit. BawinV (talk) 22:16, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@IJBall, Doggy54321, and Nahnah4: Please respond. Thank You. BawinV (talk) 09:33, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I also oppose as per IJBall. (PS: If you want your pings to go through, you may want to sign your posts.) I have no idea what you mean by "but this is the sourced original version." Unless I missed something, the WP:STATUSQUO for this article had "singer and songwriter," not singer-songwriter. Please follow WP:BRD, especially when there is no clear consensus and there is opposition, even before mine, in this discussion, despite your claims that there isn't. Amaury • 08:51, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Amaury: Being silent from time to time, trying to stall a discussion, is equal to zero opposition, in my opinion. Anyways, How do you oppose this too? On what basis? How can one oppose this when there are numerous sources from reliable publications calling her a "singer-songwriter"? Looks like WP:OR to me. BawinV (talk) 09:37, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@IJBall and Amaury: Wall Street Journal is the umpteenth source to call her a singer-songwriter. BawinV (talk) 19:44, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@IJBall and Amaury: Please respond. Thank You. BawinV (talk) 15:30, 14 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have taken this article off my watchlist, so please stop pining me. I will just reiterate again, that singer-songwriter has a very specific definition that Rodrigo probably doesn't merit at this time, WP:ONUS applies (IOW, just because sources use certain terminology (which, with the popular press, is used incorrectly as often as not) does not mean we are obliged to repeat that), and my strong preference is to list her in the lede as a "singer and songwriter" for right now (it is patently ridiculous to claim that this is "WP:OR" – do you even know what the term means?!), until she actually establishes a reputation as being a bona fide "singer-songwriter" a la Taylor Swift or somebody like that. I would have less objection to using the term singer-songwriter in the body of the article, but I don't believe it belongs in the lede at this time. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:38, 14 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@IJBall: (i) "singer-songwriter has a very specific definition that Rodrigo probably doesn't merit at this time" is not a fact. "Rodrigo probably doesn't merit at this time" as opposed to 10+ reliable sources calling her a singer-songwriter. What is this if it's not WP:OR? (ii) I don't understand "until she actually establishes a reputation as being a bona fide "singer-songwriter" a la Taylor Swift or somebody like that"? She has already though? Tell me how exactly she has not? On what basis? If not, then what is pending? There are umpteen sources, all of which are reliable sources for music, all of which you claim to have used the term "incorrectly" (which is very funny); Billboard, Time, Rolling Stone, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times are all incorrect about Rodrigo but you are right her? This literally has nothing to do with WP:ONUS, you're simply misusing it. WP:STICKTOSOURCE please. BawinV (talk) 16:00, 14 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You've been asked by IJBall to stop pinging him. Any further pings to him, or me, for that matter, will result in a harassment report being filed against you, so unless you want that to happen, I suggest you drop the stick. I have this page on my watchlist, and I am keeping up with this discussion and will respond when I something to respond with. Singer-songwriter has a very strict definition, and these sources are actually just throwing the term around willy-nilly without understanding when it's actually appropriate to use the term. And yes, the onus is on you. IJBall is not misusing it. Amaury • 17:51, 14 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree. I do not agree that these sources are actually just throwing the term around willy-nilly without understanding; not your place to say that. You are not a reliable source, but they are. If you have such great understanding of the term "singer-songwriter" (not that it matters), then please enlighten other editors here so that we could understand the point you're trying to make? Please show us the "very strict" definition of singer-songwriter? BawinV (talk) 18:11, 14 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if this may need an RfC; another editor changed "singer-songwriter" to just "singer" at the album's article [1]. MPFitz1968 (talk) 09:43, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@MPFitz1968: This topic definitely needs a Rfc. BawinV (talk) 10:15, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Adding this for navigation through sources.
  1. Pop's next great singer-songwriter – Nylon
  2. The meteoric rise of a teenage singer-songwriter – Vanity Fair
  3. With her newly released debut album Sour making a big splash, Disney star and singer-songwriter Olivia Rodrigo has shown the world that she's no one-hit wonder – Los Angeles
  4. The US singer-songwriter first scored the chart double last month, and became the youngest ever artist to do so – NME
  5. Olivia Rodrigo's Sour marks the arrival of a singer-songwriter to watch – The Philadelphia Inquirer
  6. The singer-songwriter and star of High School Music: The Musical: The Series – MTV
  7. The 18-year-old Disney star and hit singer-songwriter – Time
  8. The 18-year-old singer-songwriter's debut album Sour (out now) is raw, honest and catchy – USA Today
  9. Olivia Rodrigo easily topped the Rolling Stone Artists 500 chart for the second straight week following the release of her debut album, Sour. Though the singer-songwriter's total streams fell from 283.7 million to 210.5 million for the week of May 28th through June 3rd, that was still plenty to hold off her closest competitors. – Rolling Stone
  10. Olivia Rodrigo becomes youngest solo artist ever to score Official UK Chart Double with Sour and "Good 4 U". The US singer-songwriter's Sour scores the biggest opening week of 2021 and sets a streaming record. – Official Charts Company
  11. The Disney star and singer-songwriter hits No. 1 – The Wall Street Journal
  12. On top of everything else going on in the life of the world's busiest 18-year-old, the star singer-songwriter-actress just moved out of her parents' house. – Billboard
  13. The singer-songwriter and actress, 18, explains how she wrote her first-ever single – The New York Times

BawinV (talk) 17:27, 14 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I found her birth

I believe I have found a more detailed, reliable source for her birth. It's a clipping from Newspapers.com. You can view it here. I'm pretty certain this is her. It's the same birthday that's already given, and it also gives her parents names and her middle name. I guess this is acceptable/is at the very least somewhat better than the self-published tweets currently being used? Coming from a newspaper (The Californian (Temecula)), it is technically a secondary source I think? Heartfox (talk) 04:43, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

DarkGlow has a good source for Temecula. I'm a little leery of using a birth announcement like this – it's dangerously close to a WP:BLPPRIMARY issue IMO. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:49, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Heartfox and IJBall: I have sourced her birth name with this source. It's from the Italian variant of the British Sky News, so it's in Italian, but it states her birth name clearly, as well as her being born in Temecula, but as IJBall said, I've sourced that with a RS already. – DarkGlow (✉) 12:13, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Isabel is one of those names that gets changed in translation from Elizabeth in some languages. I know this is the case for Spanish, not sure about Italian. It would be best to have an English language source for this. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:05, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Heartfox's find is perfect. The newspaper birth announcement is exactly appropriate, not a violation of BLP in any way, shape or form. The local source is far better than something in Italy that has problems loading. Binksternet (talk) 17:26, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Portrait image requests

Semi-protected edit request on 20 January 2021

Change no picture to a picture of Olivia. Lalaloopsy24 (talk) 20:15, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: Please make your request for a new image to be uploaded to Files For Upload. Once the file has been properly uploaded, feel free to reactivate this request to have the new image used. D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 20:29, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Suitable biography photo

I believe it would be in the best interest of viewers to include a photograph of Rodrigo. AlienChex (talk) 04:06, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! Per WP:IMAGEPOL, any identifying photograph of Rodrigo would have to have sufficient copyright license allowing so. This can come in the form of a Flickr photo, Youtube video screenshot, or Wikimedia Commons upload, but all must have licensing or permissions allowing for commercial use, from my understanding of the issue.--Bettydaisies (talk) 04:09, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 6 March 2021

don't you think it's time to put a picture for olivia already? Lalaloopsy24 (talk) 17:02, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: No. Amaury • 17:12, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 16 May 2021

Add an image from https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTi3iv4ISYed8ko_OdtCWrvj1PywCiohYoZzg&usqp=CAU for her Wikipedia page's profile picture on quick facts. Benandyy (talk) 05:21, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Add Benandyy (talk) 05:21, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: As it leads to copyright violation per c:COM:FAIRUSE Run n Fly (talk) 06:11, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Picture

Hi, I think we should have a picture of Olivia by now. Her debut album is going to come out very soon, and in the last couple of months she's made quite a name for herself; therefore, her Wikipedia page should correspond with that, and have a picture to go with it. I saw a picture a couple of weeks ago, but it got taken down, so could we please upload one soon?

I agree. 2600:1700:DA60:E010:90F1:9E8D:386B:A6D9 (talk) 18:03, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 23 May 2021 (2)

add an image of Olivia Rodrigo 2A02:587:6611:B000:C07D:12BB:DF51:A83 (talk) 17:59, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: Please make your request for a new image to be uploaded to Files For Upload. Once the file has been properly uploaded, feel free to reactivate this request to have the new image used. D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 18:08, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 26 May 2021

You should insert a profile picture for her because she is arguably one of the most popular arists as of right now. Lamarsimp101 (talk) 03:19, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done::Wikipedia only uses images (with very few exceptions) that are licensed for commercial use. Unfortunately, one of Rodrigo isn't currently available. See WP:IUPC.--Bettydaisies (talk) 03:27, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Adding on, if the reason behind adding a picture is because she's "popular" right now, a picture should not be added. A picture is only added when there is a consensus that the picture will be relevant to the reader's understanding of the article, and the article would be lacking contextually without it. I do agree that a picture should be added, as the article does seem to be lacking (and there is a pretty good agreement that there should be a picture in this article), but unfortunately, there are no freely-licensed pictures of Rodrigo (as far as we know) yet, and it is unlikely we will be getting new freely-licensed pictures soon due to pandemic restrictions. D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 03:38, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Signature??

Hi, I've already talked about this in a previous section, but I still don't understand why there's no picture for her. You have her signature on her page, and yet there's still no picture. I know you need to upload certain pictures that won't get Wikipedia copyrighted, but I don't know how to do that. Can someone else please do it ASAP? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lalaloopsy24 (talk • contribs)

Hi! Three points and a piece of advice. 1: Wikipedia is a community that you are a part of, so it's not you, it's we, but that's beside the point. 2: I have no clue why her signature is on this page, it is completely unnecessary. I feel this way about all signatures: it seems like fancruft, and it is very easy to Google. 3: I know I can't speak for everyone, but every time someone asks "where's the picture?", it annoys me, whether the question was asked in good faith or not. If you read the full talk page, you would see that seven out of the 27 sections on this page are about the picture, and five of them either include detailed explanations as to why a picture cannot be uploaded or a link to how image uploading works. Asking again isn't going to magically make a copyright-free picture appear out of thin air. So, my advice is to read all seven of those sections, read all the pages that are linked (like WP:FFU and WP:IUPC), and then reply to this discussion if you have any further questions that aren't "Where's the picture?". Here are the eight sections: #Semi-protected edit request on 20 January 2021, #Suitable biography photo, #Semi-protected edit request on 6 March 2021, #Semi-protected edit request on 16 May 2021, #Picture, #Semi-protected edit request on 23 May 2021 (2) and #Semi-protected edit request on 26 May 2021. Thanks! D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 21:58, 13 June 2021 (UTC) (updated 22:18, 13 June 2021 (UTC))[reply]
really man? "were a community its 'we' not 'us'" cmon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:9750:A140:6D67:FA40:A014:C1D8 (talk • contribs)
What? Wikipedia is a community, so using "we" or "us" is better than using "you (pl.)". Also, I never said "it's 'we', not 'us'". D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 23:20, 14 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
At least the signature was obtained without copyright problems. Just need a photo in the same manner. Has she made public appearances like at a fan convention? Someone can snap a picture there and submit that to commons. AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 01:05, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
She has done some promo events for Sour (like when she did a pop-up ice cream shop for her fans), but I'm pretty sure she was wearing a mask, so any photos of her would be no good. As for any photos pre-pandemic, I don't think there would be any events not connected to HSMTSTS or Bizaardvark. D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 01:26, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand how Wikipedia being a community is relevant here, but ok. And I didn't read through all seven sections before typing my comment, but I did understand that the reason she doesn't have one up is because of copyright issues. My question to one of you was whether there could be anything done about it. Lalaloopsy24 (talk) 20:01, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't: I was just pointing it out so you know in the future, which is why I said but that's beside the point. I'm glad you read through all the sections and now better understand the issue with getting a picture of Rodrigo into the article. No, there is nothing that can be done as of now. Like Angus said, the photo needs to be obtained without copyright problems. Thanks! D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 21:26, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image of Olivia Rodrigo

Hello,

I found an image of Olivia Rodrigo under Creative Commons license ND 2.0. I used CCSearch to locate the image which was originally posted on Flickr (June 22, 2018) by Walt Disney Television, in their collection of photos from the 2018 Radio Disney Music Awards.

I want to know if this image is suitable to put in the infobox of the article. Please note that I am new to image posting and uploading, so feel free to inform me in a nice manner if I have violated copyright laws. I had noticed previous discussion/debate of the lack of an image in the Olivia Rodrigo article, so I thought it would be kind of me to do research on the topic.

Courtesy link: https://www.flickr.com/photos/disneyabc/29085153118/in/photostream/ Rules of cc ND 2.0: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/2.0/

Thank you,

Εζω (talk) 21:23, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ND in the license means no derivatives which is not an acceptable restriction. WP:Free licenses is a list of acceptable licenses. Whpq (talk) 22:03, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Why not use this image which is CC BY 2.0? https://www.flickr.com/photos/x1brett/51240528416 Yannn11 18:34, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I also think it is fine to use the first CC BY-ND 2.0 image as {{Non-free promotional}}. See Wikipedia:File_copyright_tags/Non-free. Yannn11 19:17, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Yannn11: The image from the flickr link is that of her Sour album cover, and while the source of that image is different from that used in the infobox of the Sour (album) article (Rodrigo's Instagram vs. the flickr one linked here), the non-free use rationale on the image (from Instagram) dictates it to be used exclusively at that article. Aside from that, I'm not thinking an image of her that is in the context of a particular project, whether it's the Sour album or the covers of any of her singles like "drivers license" or "good 4 u" qualifies as being an appropriate image for this article's infobox. MPFitz1968 (talk) 19:27, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@MPFitz1968: Good point; I agree. What do you think about using the original CC BY-ND 2.0 image with the {{Non-free promotional}} template? Yannn11 19:37, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 16 June 2021

Add a picture! 2601:C9:C001:8130:C59A:A447:5AD9:7EF4 (talk) 04:14, 16 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done. Nor Wikipedia or its affiliate, Wikimedia Commons, currently has an usable image of her. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (talk) 04:32, 16 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

for god sake read the talk section before saying this for the millionth time — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:9750:A140:E45D:2058:C544:7D61 (talk) 05:45, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 All done: File:Olivia Rodrigo at White House.jpg. --Tomchen1989 (talk) 14:08, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Rowspans on discography

I think we should add rowspans for the years in the discography section. I personally think right now it looks messy as there is no need to have the same year written 8 times (in the other charted songs section). LaVozSA (talk) 12:18, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • In mobile view, where "Drivers License", for example, is a very tall row because of the amount of certifications, it is easier to read because you don't have to scroll down to see the year. However, I never understood why people refuse to remove the rowspan from the album column but argue the years must be listed separately. At least be consistent. Heartfox (talk) 22:21, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It has to do with MOS:ACCESSABILITY, so they are usually avoided. If they are used, however, based on consensus, rowspans are only acceptable on either the first or last column, though we usually do it on the first column. In many cases, the first column is years, though that is not always the case, like here. Amaury • 18:20, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I also think we should add rowspans, if people argue it goes against MOS:ACCESSABILITY then go to every discography page and remove the hundreds of rowspans used. Having the same year listed multiple times (up to 8 in the other charted songs section) is extremely messy and unappealing to the eye; discography pages should be simple and easy to read. Not to mention a majority of the editors that argue against rowspans spend a majority of their day on Wikipedia, at this point it seems like its "their way or the highway" eventhough no other discography page except Olivia's is constantly arguing about rowspans. Lets keep it consistent and simple and add them back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.205.245.98 (talk) 14:45, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Every other article having the wrong use of rowspan is not the issue in question here, Rodrigo's is. Don't like it? Get the guideline changed. – DarkGlow • 14:32, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What guideline are you referring to? Heartfox (talk) 19:31, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:ACCESSABILITY. Amaury • 20:36, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

At the time I'm writing this, I added the rowspans, they may be removed. I just don't understand why Taylor Swifts discography page features rowspans, Katy Perry discography feature rowspans, many artists pages has rowspans and there's no problem with it, so why can't it just stay here on Olivia's page LaVozSA (talk) 10:08, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. There is no reason whatsoever why this page in particular is unique from the other ones. If we have this random rule on this page, there's nothing suggesting we shouldn't have it for the other ones. It's a discography table, and we don't need the years to be shown 8 different times. Also, every other article being "normal" in terms of their use of rowspan doesn't make the use of rowspan on this page justifiable whatsoever. It also does not suggest their usage being "wrong" by any means, and the followup of "Don't like it? Get the guideline changed" is petty, unneeded, and is an indication of the person in authority of this page is biased, and applied this "rule" to the page simply because they've been monitoring it. After all, the "after gaining consensus on the Talk page" suggests that they are aware that they could be wrong, and in that event, would allow the editors to do what they otherwise would've done in the first place. Sounds like "MOS:HYPOCRISY" to me...Don't change it back. Trevortnidesserpedx (talk) • 4:44, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Album

I think it’s important to note that Olivia Rodrigo broke Ariana Grande’s record for the largest streaming week in history for a pop female album. Joyasaxena21 (talk) 00:40, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Joyasaxena21: Source, please? BawinV (talk) 05:12, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Paper Magazine Joyasaxena21 (talk) 06:36, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Joyasaxena21: Please copy-paste the link here. BawinV (talk) 07:12, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.papermag.com/olivia-rodrigo-sour-record-2653146724.html Joyasaxena21 (talk) 07:52, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Joyasaxena: Thank you. This is added to the Commercial Performance section in Sour. Regards. BawinV (talk) 07:58, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Biased selection of countries in discography

Hello, I noticed that the discography table completely misses three of the top-5 biggest music countries such as Japan, Germany, and France and favors to include very marginal markets such as Denmark, Ireland, New Zealand (these markets are 10 times smaller). I understand that chart positions in these countries are less than "1" and including the former three countries will make the table look less "pretty" but isn't Wikipedia more about fair representation and objectiveness? I would suggest to include at least Germany and France - these two are more or less "standard" on discography pages (I know there is no standard). Thanks! p.s. A fan of both Wikipedia and Olivia here --138.246.3.137 (talk) 13:20, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree that we should change the table to include these three countries, regardless of chart positions. The only reason I would not want something to be included is if none of the "Other charted songs" songs charted in that section, as the whole point of the songs being there is that they did chart. Great idea! D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 10:12, 16 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would switch out Denmark and Norway for Germany and France. Yes "Deja Vu" did a little worse in those two, but including Norway, Denmark, and Sweden, but not France or Germany is odd for an international artist like Rodrigo. Heartfox (talk) 03:24, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on Olivia Rodrigo's profession as a singer-songwriter

Olivia Rodrigo is currently addressed as a singer and a songwriter in this article and across Wikipedia. Should she be addressed as a singer-songwriter instead? BawinV (talk) 19:57, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Invited by the bot. There's no wrong answer here, either would be fine. But IMO "singer-songwriter" usually sort of means that they do and are known for a significant amount of performance of songs that they wrote and so I'd tend to say avoid using the singer-songwriter moniker. North8000 (talk) 12:33, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Let me add here what the reliable publications are calling her.
  1. Pop's next great singer-songwriter – Nylon
  2. The meteoric rise of a teenage singer-songwriter – Vanity Fair
  3. With her newly released debut album Sour making a big splash, Disney star and singer-songwriter Olivia Rodrigo has shown the world that she's no one-hit wonder – Los Angeles
  4. The US singer-songwriter first scored the chart double last month, and became the youngest ever artist to do so – NME
  5. Olivia Rodrigo's Sour marks the arrival of a singer-songwriter to watch – The Philadelphia Inquirer
  6. The singer-songwriter and star of High School Music: The Musical: The Series – MTV
  7. The 18-year-old Disney star and hit singer-songwriter – Time
  8. The 18-year-old singer-songwriter's debut album Sour (out now) is raw, honest and catchy – USA Today
  9. Olivia Rodrigo easily topped the Rolling Stone Artists 500 chart for the second straight week following the release of her debut album, Sour. Though the singer-songwriter's total streams fell from 283.7 million to 210.5 million for the week of May 28th through June 3rd, that was still plenty to hold off her closest competitors. – Rolling Stone
  10. Olivia Rodrigo becomes youngest solo artist ever to score Official UK Chart Double with Sour and "Good 4 U". The US singer-songwriter's Sour scores the biggest opening week of 2021 and sets a streaming record. – Official Charts Company
  11. The Disney star and singer-songwriter hits No. 1 – The Wall Street Journal
  12. On top of everything else going on in the life of the world's busiest 18-year-old, the star singer-songwriter-actress just moved out of her parents' house. – Billboard
  13. The singer-songwriter and actress, 18, explains how she wrote her first-ever single – The New York Times. BawinV (talk) 14:19, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Spy-cicle: (i) A singer sings songs. Example: Whitney Houston, Elvis Presley (ii) A songwriter only writes songs. Example: Quincy Jones, Liz Rose (iii) A singer and songwriter is generally someone who contributes/co-writes the lyrics/melodies with other people (never solo-written) and then sings the material. Example: Beyoncé, Selena Gomez (iv) A singer-songwriter in someone who is capable of creating their own songs from scratch and often accompany themselves on one or more musical instruments. Example: Taylor Swift, Alicia Keys. BawinV (talk) 17:14, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking of Taylor Swift, who could forget the year-long (or even longer) dispute over whether she was a singer-songwriter or a singer and songwriter. See here for example. I wonder what her and Olivia have in common. -- Calidum 18:43, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@BawinV: Thank you for the informative explanation and example (appears Gomez may fall into just the "singer" category considering her current lead sentence). I will try to come back after more comments have been made. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 20:45, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Spy-cicle: You're welcome. Regarding Gomez, I think that's a discussion for another day; I would want to add "songwriter" to her professions as well. I feel like editors add professions to biographies, and then mostly don't bother to update the professions as the subject of the article grows and expands career-wise, commensurate with multiple reliable sources. That's the case with Rodrigo here. A few years ago, she was just an "actress", and then a year back, an "actress and singer", and currently, she's "actress, singer, and songwriter", which should be "singer-songwriter and actress" now, if we're going with the sources (which we should). BawinV (talk) 06:43, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hyphenate - There is a relatively recent trend to use the term singer-songwriter not as a descriptor of a singer who writes their own songs, but as a short-hand for an ill-defined genre of music. Last.fm was notorious for using this tag for every solo artists who was otherwise difficult to classify (such as Tom Waits). I don't think this should be encouraged on Wikipedia and the term "singer-songwriter" should be used in its proper sense. PraiseVivec (talk) 16:15, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Fine as is, especially given what North8000 stated. What sources are incorrectly applying is irrelevant, as they don't understand the definition. Amaury • 16:36, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep current wording in lede as per North8000 – currently, she is not notable for being a "singer-songwriter" in the "traditional" sense. That may change in the future, but right now she is known as an actress and pop star who co-writes some of her own material: that means she's not known to be/not notable as a traditional "singer-songwriter" at the current time. Also, everyone needs to remember WP:ONUS – just because sourcing uses (potentially incorrect) terminology does not oblige Wikipedia to follow their lead. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:00, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hyphenate Adding my opinion if it is not clear already; Rodrigo fits the definitions of a singer-songwriter, and as per the reliable sources listed above, Rodrigo is notable as a singer-songwriter as well. Who defines what's a "singer-songwriter" if not the music publications and critical reviews? Do we have a more superior source of information? If yes, where? I think we should stick to the sources. BawinV (talk) 17:27, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hyphenate. It is clear that reliable sources believe she is a singer-songwriter, and that is good enough for us. I shouldn't have to remind anyone that Wikipedia's "content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of editors," per WP:V. If you disagree she is a singer-songwriter based on some antiquated definition, tough luck, we use what the sources say. -- Calidum 17:34, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pretty much this. Wikipedia similarly also generally rejects those "that band is not a real metal band" or "that's not real punk music" type arguments too in lieu of reliable sources saying otherwise too. Sergecross73 msg me 21:33, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Singer-songwriter per sources. Regardless of anything else (definitions, opinions, examples, etc), sources say "singer-songwriter", so I would go with what is said in the sources. D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 21:58, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kind of sad this is even a question, but for what it's worth, hyphenate. Why are we investing so much time in arguing about this trivial typesetting which means basically the same thing to readers and anyone you'd ask without having done research on it? We should be using our resources elsewhere. BawinV did differentiate the two at parts (iii) and (iv), but really nobody who reads this is going to give a damn. The sources are evidence of that, as elaborated by Sergecross73's response to Amaury's WP:STICKTOSOURCE complaints. dannymusiceditor oops 16:51, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

These stick to source arguments are just BS. Sources aren't God. Sources make mistakes, too. Definition matters here, and singer-songwriter she is not. Amaury • 23:07, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Per the Wikipedia definition of singer-songwriter, A singer-songwriter is a musician who writes, composes, and performs their own musical material, including lyrics and melodies. Rodrigo writes, composes (both lyrics and melodies), and performs her own material. The label "singer-songwriter" is used by record labels and critics to define popular-music artists who write and perform their own material, which is often self-accompanied - generally on acoustic guitar or piano.[3] Such an artist performs the roles of composer, lyricist, vocalist, sometimes instrumentalist, and often self-manager. Per Bawin's 13 sources above, multiple critics have referred to her as a singer-songwriter. Rodrigo does write and perform her own material, having co-written all of her songs in her discography, and performed more than 80% of it at least once to date. Rodrigo has performed using an acoustic guitar and a piano before. Lastly, Rodrigo has performed the roles of composer, lyricist, and vocalist before in her songs. D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 23:43, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The mass of sources isn't BS. Maybe one or two could be fobbed off as outliers. That's not the case here. Also, the English language is a changing entity. Binksternet (talk) 23:45, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
13 unrelated, mainstream, reliable sources all making the same "mistake" would indicate that this isn't some sort of rare or one off fluke or misunderstanding. It's very much so how the term is currently used. The English language, and musical labels, change over time. It's how it works. There's nothing new about this sort of discourse. Sergecross73 msg me 14:18, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 15 July 2021

Rancho Springs Medical Center is in Murrieta, CA not Temecula, CA. 2603:8000:9001:41B4:BD88:D754:5783:C0FA (talk) 21:47, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Done, thank you! D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 21:53, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Personal Life?

It seems odd to me that her public vaccine outreach in partnership with POTUS is listed under Personal Life. Participating in press conferences as part of a public outreach campaign seems the opposite of personal. -- 2600:2B00:8810:9B00:9D7D:E986:1F21:1E4 (talk) 02:11, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Might need to be moved to another section when applicable and when enough information exists regarding side projects, such as politics or philanthropy for example. As of now, it should stay in "Personal life". This is something that is an extension of her role as a celebrity via singer and actress. MPFitz1968 (talk) 06:28, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Olivia_Rodrigo&oldid=1036503552"