Talk:William Shakespeare

Is he the world's greatest dramatist?

"William Shakespeare […] widely regarded as the greatest writer in the English language and the world's greatest dramatist." I PLAY BASEBALL Does anyone else, by any chance, has a problem with this introductory sentence? Is it not, out of courtesy, the common usage to say "one of the greatest (in the world)" for anybody who stands out among his peers (especially an artist), even when a large majority would admit that, indeed, this person is the greatest in their opinions. I find the turn of phrase way too definitive for an encyclopedia.

I, for one, have seen plays written by Shakespeare and of course plays by other writers, and my take on it is that Shakespeare is not the author who moved me or impressed me the most. While writing this, I stumbled upon this very good article about what G. B. Shaw called "bardolatry". It is said in this piece that, among other great writers, Tolstoy, Wittgenstein and Voltaire not only didn't consider him the greatest, but disliked his works.

In any case, I think the first sentence should be changed to "William Shakespeare […] widely regarded as the greatest writer in the English language and one of the world's greatest dramatist", as I find the title of "greatest writer in the English language" not as outrageously presumptuous as the one of "world's greatest dramatist".

--Niouyouseur (talk) 15:40, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Fwiw, some earlier discussions:

• Talk:William_Shakespeare/Archive_22#Edit_to_Intro
• Talk:William_Shakespeare/Archive_22#Shakespeare's_Reputation
• Talk:William_Shakespeare/Archive_22#Is_he_widely_regarded_as_the_greatest_writer_in_the_English_language?
• Talk:William_Shakespeare/Archive_22#Yeah,_not_even_‘by_many’_is_accepted_anymore Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:16, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

"bardolatry" is the practice of deifying Shakespeare. The fact that a word exists for it means a lot of people have done it. This is actually evidence in support of the current language - after all, whether he is objectively the best (and you haven't suggested who is better) is impossible to measure, and we can only address what other people have said. The fact that he has a few (well, add millions of schoolchildren) critics does not negate the fact that he is widely considered one of the best and the best; and has been for centuries. Further, I fail to see a better solution: "Shakespeare was a pretty good author but Tolstoy thought otherwise" is probably not a great alternative. If we fail to measure his immeasurable impact on Western culture and the English language, we are concealing the truth. This conversation is stale, but I still thought I'd add this since I cleaned up some vandalism here. ‡ Єl Cid of Valencia ^talk 20:31, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

George Orwell wrote a punctilious but quietly hilarious commentary on Count Tolstoy's pamphlet: 'Lear, Tolstoy and the Fool', in Polemic No.7 (March 1947), collected in Selected Essays (Penguin, Harmondsworth, 1957), retitled Inside the Whale and Other Essays 1962, ISBN 0-14-001185-4, pp.101-119, which is hereby commended to the reader. Noting that -- in Count Tolstoy's view -- Shakespeare ' "was not an artist." Moreover, his opinions are not original or interesting and his tendency is "of the lowest and most immoral"... Tolstoy adds on his own account that Shakespeare was a jingo patriot of the worst type' -- Orwell observes, 'But here there arises a difficult question. If Shakespeare is all that Tolstoy has shown him to be, how did he come to be so generally admired? Evidently the answer can only lie in a sort of mass hypnosis, or "epidemic suggestion". The whole civilized world has somehow been deluded into thinking Shakespeare a good writer, and even the plainest demonstration to the contrary makes no impression, because one is not dealing with a reasoned opinion, but with something akin to religious faith... As to the manner in which Shakespeare's fame started, Tolstoy explains it as having been 'got up' by German professors towards the end of the eighteenth century. His reputation "originated in Germany, and thence was transferred to England"... Goethe pronounced Shakespeare a great poet, whereupon all the other critics flocked after him like a troop of parrots, and the general infatuation has lasted ever since... Tolstoy was perhaps the most admired literary man of his age, and he was certainly not its least able pamphleteer. He turned all his powers of denunciation against Shakespeare, like all the guns of a battleship roaring simultaneously. And with what result? Forty years later Shakespeare is still there completely unaffected, and of the attempt to demolish him nothing remains, except the yellowing pages of a pamphlet which hardly anyone has read, and which would be forgotten altogether if Tolstoy had not also been the author of War and Peace and Anna Karenina.' Khamba Tendal (talk) 19:39, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

it's hard to see how he could be the greatest etc if his works are always only 'among the best' and not 'the best'.142.163.195.103 (talk) 10:03, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Green's attack

"Greene's attack is the earliest surviving mention of Shakespeare's work in the theatre. Biographers suggest that his career may have begun any time from the mid-1580s to just before Greene's remarks."

Should read

Green's remarks about an upstart crow possibly refer to Shakespeare, the tigers heart line is from from HenryVI. It is not the first mention of Shakespeare's works, in Green's Menaphon 1589 Nash states "English Seneca read by candle-light yields many good sentences, as Blood is a beggar, and so forth; and if you entreat him fair in a frosty morning, he will afford you whole Hamlets, I should say handfuls of tragical speeches" (STC 12272,1589) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.121.35.105 (talk) 19:51, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Mark Twain's "Is Shakespeare Dead?" Audiobook

Audiobook of Mark Twain's "Is Shakespeaare Dead?" --As a cub river pilot, one of Mark Twain’s masters was a pilot named George Ealer, who recited Shakespeare by the hour - from memory - and who was a virulent opponent of the notion that the Shakespeare plays and poems were in truth written by Sir Francis Bacon. At first, young Sam Clemens agreed with his teacher and boss, but he soon realized that it was no fun for the pilot to argue with someone who agreed with him all of the time. And so, young Sam Clemens became quite skilled in defending this position: He said he was not a Shakespearite nor a Baconite, but that he was a "Brontosaurian": he didn't know who did write them, but he knew Shakespeare didn't.

As Twain explained, "It is the very way Professor Osborn and I built the colossal skeleton brontosaur that stands fifty-seven feet long and sixteen feet high in the Natural History Museum, and is the awe and admiration of all the world, the stateliest skeleton that exists on the planet. We had nine bones, and we built the rest of him out of plaster of Paris. We ran short of plaster of Paris, or we'd have built a brontosaur that could sit down beside the Stratford Shakespeare and none but an expert could tell which was biggest or contained the most plaster."

Review: "[T]he entire audio book is a tribute to Twain's comic sense and word-play... If Is Shakespeare Dead? is one of Mark Twain's works that you've resisted reading until now, this audio book is an enjoyable way to experience one of Twain's last autobiographical writings.... Twain's words and Henzel's voice are at perfect pitch." (Kevin McConnell, in The Mark Twain Forum)_____. Is Shakespeare Dead? Narrated by Richard Henzel. (The Mark Twain in Person Audio Library, 2011) GrandpaSnazzy (talk) 13:05, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

This is mentioned at History of the Shakespeare authorship question, Shakespeare authorship question and Baconian theory of Shakespeare authorship. Not Mark Twain for some reason. What do you suggest we add to this article about it? Compare William_Shakespeare#Speculation_about_Shakespeare. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:36, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Shakespeare's Death Date

The box says 3 May and the article says 26 April. Where did the 3 May date come from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scotisle (talk • contribs) 18:51, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Looks like someone decided to impose foreign, Catholic, dating. I have undone them. DuncanHill (talk) 19:01, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Guinness World records

I am adding the information that Shakespeare holds the Guinness World record for Best selling playwright and that he is the third most translated individual author. বিড়ালতপা চক্কোত্তি (talk) 09:50, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

IMO best removed per WP:WEIGHT/WP:PROPORTION. We already have "widely regarded as the greatest writer in the English language and the world's greatest dramatist." Guinness is very meh in this context. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:59, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Baptised or Baptized

It says “BaptiSED” when it should be Baptized. Jdietr601 (talk) 19:14, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi User:Jdietr601. Baptise is British English, Baptize is American English. As this is a British topic, we use the British spelling per WP:ENGVAR. If you're not sure of something on Wikipedia, you can generally find out by doing a search on the topic by putting WP: in front of your search term in the search box. So, as this is a question about spelling, you would do a search like this: WP:Spelling, and that would take you to a page about spelling on Wikipedia: WP:Spelling, with links to related pages. SilkTork (talk) 21:34, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

@SilkTork: Baptize is perfectly proper in British English, indeed it's the spelling used in the Prayer Book. DuncanHill (talk) 22:13, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

It's certainly the variant promoted by Oxford, but as it is a defiant variant, it is classed as the "Oxford spelling" to differentiate it from majority usage. My personal approach to spelling, punctuation and grammar is if the word and sentence can be understood, then there isn't a problem. However, I do aim for my own spelling to conform to majority usage in order to reduce the possibility for unease. Shakespeare, of course, was writing before Samuel Johnson doomed us all to a world where people chide and argue over ize and ise. Purely on a whim the great man decided that flour should be ground grains while flower should be the part of the plant which attracts butterflies. Until then, either could mean either. We don't have much hand written by Shakespeare himself, but we do have his signature - six signatures in fact, all spelled differently! Such was the freer, more liberal life before the shadows of Johnson and the great grammarians darkened our world. Vive la différence! SilkTork (talk) 01:25, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Signature: disputed

Afaict, signature in infobox

See above. Please tag the 'signature' as disputed, in the column at right, and also in the text if it is shown there as well. Everything about Shakespeare's personal identity has been disputed at one time or another, but his signature disputes itself, you can provide no 'authoritative' signature of the man, and ought to be honest enough to say it. [Another locked page huh. Funny how the locked ones are always so wrong. Kill this policy, and develop a tehnological solution appropriate for the 2020s, not kludgework of the 1660s.][and PLEASE don't add a signature to my comment, particularly one which publishes my IP. Double the demerit points if you do so hiding behind a bot. Kill all bots, this is a human-edited website.]

Assuming Shakespeare's handwriting gets it right, this seems to be from his will. Yep, much about S. is disputed somewhere, but per WP:PROPORTION, WP:FALSEBALANCE etc, that doesn't necessarily mean it should be in a WP-article. Are there any good WP:RS that disputes this particular signature? I'd like to wikilink Signature in the infobox to Shakespeare's handwriting, but I don't think that's possible.

You can avoid your IP automatically showing by WP:REGISTER. If you do, you'll eventually be able to edit WP:SEMI protected pages, and your contributions page won't show your IP. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:31, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

But it seems you knew that: [1]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:49, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Opening sentence in the lead, and influence section.

The influence section really seems to understate and downplay his influence on virtually every poet, playwright, and novelist in the English language for the past 400 years. True, the vastness of his influence is something gargantuan, but it should be noted in the lead, and expounded upon in the influence section.

The lead should certainly note: "widely regarded as the greatest and most influential writer in the English language", even at the expense of "world's greatest dramatist", which seems slightly redundant when it's already stated he is the greatest writer in the English language. Thoughts? Michael0986 (talk) 21:28, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

The Influence-section doesn't seem glaringly awful to me, but it can probably be improved like everything else. This is the "top" article, and influence has a separate article (can probably also been improved), and there are other spin-offs like Cultural references to Hamlet and St Crispin's Day Speech. Something like "...has made a lasting impression on later drama and literature" may be missing from the WP:LEAD, though. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:14, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

The article is not bad, still feels underwhelming for such a figure in history, but I guess it's an okay starting point. The influence section seems a tad lazy, noting a few great novelists who were influenced, when Shakespeare's influence is cast over literally every major novelist and poet since the 17th century, and well into the 20th century. His influence should be noted in the opening sentence in the lead, it goes in tandem with his status as the greatest writer. Michael0986 (talk) 21:07, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Is Shakespeare and Edward De Vere the same or not?

Is Edward de Vere or William Shakespeare the same person. If not then the Wikipedian article is right and if both are referring to the same person then why there are two entries for the same person. These are what I tackled from the book The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History by Michael H. Hart. See entry 32 in the above book. Sultan Abdul sultan (talk) 02:49, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

According to page 7 in this book [2] Hart is an Oxfordian. de Vere is prominent on the List of Shakespeare authorship candidates. Does that help? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:34, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Use

Know 2403:6200:88A2:6ECD:14A:434D:7B44:23F (talk) 12:38, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Try again? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:52, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

List

You have not given a list of works by shakespare 2409:4053:E89:3488:0:0:5989:5A13 (talk) 11:14, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

See links at main article under the headings "Plays" and "Sonnets". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:01, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Lyrics

Surely this article is incomplete without mention of his lyrics, some of the most beautiful in any language. E.g., Take, O take, those lips away, O Mistress mine, Under the greenwood tree, Come away death, Full fathom five, Fear no more the heat o' the sun? Esedowns (talk) 14:11, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

William Shakespeare

William Shakespeare 106.78.86.221 (talk) 23:20, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Birthday

His birthday was not the 26th it was the 23rd this is common knowledge as he died on his birthday 76.10.97.27 (talk) 02:30, 21 April 2022 (UTC)