Talk:Homosexuality/Archive 11

Screen Actor

I click the link for "Screen Actor" on Dane Cook wikipedia page and it links here. Is that a Joke? Some how i dont feel it should link here

I believe you would be correct. Some child with too much time on their hands deliberately vandalized the article. Happens all the time, really. E. Sn0 =31337= 23:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Biased Research

I don't even understand why we emphasize this research from the 60's: "In my entire experience, I have never interviewed a single male homosexual who had a constructive, loving father. A son who has a loving father who respects him does not become a homosexual." Clearly the issue of "loving father" is biased and represents a subjective point of view. Moreover I just don't think you can trust studies from the super-Christian 60's to provide honest science.

What do you expect from a page that so prominently relies upon the completely and utterly debunked Kinsey studies? --Theadversary 19:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The burden of proof is upon you to show this study is debunked. And who's to say there's no better scientific study that does in fact hold its water? E. Sn0 =31337= 22:40, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Use your head, what more proof do you need then the fact that he based his "reasearch" on INMATES? Others have already done a far better job of showing Kinsey was a hack than I ever could. Theadversary 16:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

When inmates were removed from the sampling, the numbers didn't change muchKechvsf 23:13, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Well gee, that just leaves the reform school subjects and the people he recruited from homosexual "friendship" networks. No wonder the numbers don't drop much. The man's research has been debunked by everyone who has looked at it objectively. The University of Chicago (not a bastion of conservative activism) in 1990 released a study which proved definitively that Kinsey's sample pool was badly flawed. They noted that he specifically recruited subjects from classes of people likely to have had the desired sexual experiences (e.g., inmates, homosexuals, and reform school youths). Not one study that has been conducted based upon statistical sampling has come even close to Kinsey's numbers for homosexuals. Not one. The most recent one that I'm aware of, the 2002 study by the Center for Disease Control, found the number was 2.3%. A far cry from Kinsey's 10%. Theadversary 04:43, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Redirect

Searching for "JESUS" redirects here. Matt714 04:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Seems to go to the right entry to me, today, anyway. Are you still seeing that? --Rschmertz 02:13, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Religion

The article does not mention a christian's point of view. The bible clearly states that homosexuals are far from god and possibly beyond salvation. Someone please add this line in the article. Thank you. 134.106.199.30 09:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

They are far from God when they act on their homosexuality. PatPeter 00:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, if you'd bothered to *read* (not to mention sign your name) you might have noticed the rather large section on "Religion" in the article, or the link to the topic "religion and homosexuality" which quite clearly covers Christian perspectives -- from the liberal and tolerant, to the conservative and fundamentalist. Before you go whining on talk pages about your POV not being represented, remember, this is an ENCYCLOPEDIA, not a religious text. POV's can be presented neutrally (ie. "many christian sects believe homosexuality to be proscribed behavior according to the bible,) without veering into clear POV presentation in the article (ie. "homosexuality is an abomination unto the lord and all homosexuals are wicked."). Dave 15:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC) 15:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Get a new bible. Yours is broken. This article is about homosexuality, not about religious justifications and rationalizations of cruelty to others. Christianity is based on christ, christ taught to have love and compassion for others, not hatred. Atom 12:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I was bored and what could be easier to get some attention than by putting up something controversial on the internet. I did not mean it, I'm not even religious. Just delete the whole thing. Sorry again. 134.106.199.2 16:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC) (posting from lib. IP could have changed slightly)

You forgot to mention that Christains point of view isn't the worlds view, that some people think the bible and God are just fairy tales and that having strong hateful and ignorant views based on fairy tales is in itself rediculous. Sure a Christian point of view may have a place in the article, but you speak it as if it is fact, which is rather offensive JayKeaton 10:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Christ died for ALL sins, including homosexuality. Besides, the Old Testament has got its share of suggestive gay relationships. And, 134.106.199.2, it's fine, I'm religious and I disagree with your first statement. See? I forgave you right there. Christ's word. Augustulus 01:37, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

You obviously do not read the Bible that much, or you just do not understand it. Did God ever give an OK to these gay relationships? No. Was not gay practice between individuals or orgies common in the day? Read some Greek or Roman history. Was there any reason fo you to post "the Old Testament has got its share of suggestive gay relationships"? Not really. PatPeter 00:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

This is a controvercial topic, and as such it has two sides. I don't care who you side with, but I think both perspectives need to be recognized equally. This article, in my opinion, is very heavily biased on the pro-homosexual side. There needs to be more balance.Disparager 23:32, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not give equal time to hatred. FCYTravis 23:42, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Then how is it that you are allowed to have an account here? That was a pretty hateful thing to say. --Theadversary 19:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Hatred is not a valid POV. Your ad hominem is a logical fallacy. And please do not format your comments in such a manner as to cause a horizontal scroll. It is detrimental to readability. Thank you.

Your opinion that adversaries of the gay special rights agenda "hate" is just that, opinion. Not everyone who disagrees with a homosexual hates homosexuals. And your hypocrisy is duly noted. Your labeling of a difference of opinion as "hatred" is, indeed, an ad hominem designed to shout down debate. Theadversary 22:18, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

P.S. there is scientific evidence that homosexuality is genetic, just like race. Homophobia is no better than racism. E. Sn0 =31337= 22:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey, you know your little scientific proof?

Alpha) Scientific proof?!? His discoveries were not posted, did he do this all himself because I do not see a mention of a team, I guess you are just following one man's word, here, I will say that gays are not set biologically, let's see how many people agree with me.

Beta) Being gay IS a choice!

Do the gays choose to take part in sexual interaction with one and other?

Do they try to fight it? Change?

Gamma) All the last sentences end with "Bradshaw said" or "Bradshaw sited" this is not scienitfic proof, this is garbage. PatPeter 00:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I hope you don't seriously believe that drivel. -- Steel 00:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

The Christian view today is that it is a sin and you should hate gays. But a someone following what Jesus taught would know they are sinning, but they shouldn't hate them. We as Christians should love them, not become gay, but love them as a brother. Accept them, don't accept their lifestyle. You see, that's why people aren't drawn to Christianity in America. We Christians are hating, not loving. -71.224.24.99 02:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

YOU ARE ALL Heretics against the church! Even you who claim to be Christians.

A) The Christian view is NOT to hate gays, we shall love our brothers and sisters who are astray, but we shall not accept them if they are not willing to change, i.e. as an example the church does not allow |practicing gay| parishioners (not gays who practice Christianity but their own acts) to be part of the church.

Is that hatred? NO! Do we allow Satan worhipers into the church? It is that simple. I will be happy to quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church or the Bible.

B) Gays are welcome WITH WARM OUTSTRETCHED ARMS into the church if they do not practice their impure acts.

C) Homosexuality is not a sin, why would the Lord punish His creation for something that they did not bring upon themselves?

D) Check my other comments.

PatPeter 00:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Islam and homosexuality

Tthe sentence concerning homosexuality and Islam is as follows "Islam regards love and desire for beautiful youths (adolescent men or boys) as a natural temptation for all men, sexual relations however as a transgression negatory of the natural role and aim of sexual activity". This statement is not only untrue but also contradicts itself. If such a statement is true then same sex relationships would have been regulated the same way heterosexual relationships are regulated through marriage. I would like the author(s) to cite one reference that states that such a feeling is regarded as normal in Islam. The reference quoted in the article only deals with the second half of the sentence.--Waashwal 19:07, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

As an aside, let me point out that the sentence does not contradict itself; it is not logically very different, I think, from the policy of the Catholic church, which recognizes homosexuality as a condition, but bans homosexual acts. But to the matter at hand... I agree with you that the first half of the sentence seems unsupported by the citation (though I didn't get through the whole article -- it's difficult to read). Furthermore, as Islam is not a monolithic religion like Catholicism, one has to be careful with general statements of Islamic doctrine. Someone may be able to dig up a writing by an Islamic scholar or two that supports the notion that desire for beautiful boys is natural, but without a sense of how well accepted such ideas are in Muslim society at large, they must at least be qualified (e.g. "Some scholars have stated that...").

Firstly, I do think that there is a great difference between recognizing something as a condition and trying but bans the practice; and suggesting that something is normal yet it is prohibited and sinful. I totally agree with you in the second point. And until supporting evidence is provided I think such a statement should removed or labeled as [citation needed]--Waashwal 15:36, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Incidence of Homosexuality

After reading over this article, (and many other related articles) I still can't seem to get a clear idea of incidence. From what I understand, it is only reported that 1-5% (varying figures across different studies) of the population identifies as homosexual, or has had homosexual thoughts or experiences. However, there are a few things to take into consideration when looking at these relatively low figures:

1.) Incidence versus observation

If these statistics accurately reflected the homosexual population, then how are people getting together in the first place? There would simply be too many non-homosexual people to keep them distanced. As well, we also have to take into consideration the incidence of being closeted versus being open. This would play a large role in hindering how people manage to identify one another. I have also noticed that these figures vary quite much depending on how conservative or liberal the area is, which brings me to...

2.) Social stigmatization

Another important factor to consider is the possible levels of dishonesty in these studies, where people who may very well be classified as homosexual (or simply have homosexual thoughts or experiences) may fear persecution, or have not yet come to terms with themselves due to impeding social standards.

Thoughts? Grendel 10:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

The issue of incidence of homosexuality and bisexuality is a thorny and complicated one. As with any social surveys, these studies are limited by several key factors, in addition to some issues that are specific to the study on human sexuality.

First and foremost, there's an issue of uniformity in defition. It seems trivial at first, but it is a very daunting task to define homosexuality. Are we speaking of thoughts and fantasy alone? Are we speaking of actual actions? If the latter, are we distinguishing between voluntary and situational same-sex sexual contacts? What about one-time flings? Do we count those? To get an accurate picture, one must go about the Kinsey way of using an exhaustive set of interview questions. For the most part, surveys do not have that sort of resources.

Secondly, as all surveys that rely on self-reporting do, these surveys are only as accurate as the targets are willing to be honest. Besides the social pressure and the potential adversities from disclosing one's sexual orientation, we are also dealing with self-identification. Do people who live on the low-down consider themselves as homosexual? Certain cultures do not perceive the penetrative partner in a male-male couple as gay, but do so for the penetrated partner.

Thirdly, homosexual people in the United States (and possible everywhere else) are not uniformly distributed geographically. They tend to be more concentrated in certain cities. This is not to say there aren't any gay people in the rural areas. In fact, there are plenty of us out there (and everywhere). The issue is sampling and sampling errors due to non-uniformity in distribution.

So, taken together, the accuracy of any surveys on the incidence of homosexuality must be evaluated carefully with a sharp eye to the methodology. Even then, the results must be taken as valid only for the criteria that it operated under and generalization to the entire population would be problematic.

Nevertheless, the incidence of homosexuality is not in itself a terribly useful piece of information outside of the academia. Consider that if there are only 2% of the U.S. population who're gay, there'll be still more gay people than there are residents in several states, like Rhode Island and Montanna. If the incidence of homosexuality is used as justification to deny equal rights for gay people, then all one has to do to see the absurdity of that argument is to imagine denying every citizen of Rhode Island that same right and/or protection.

Qifeng 05:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

There must be a more accurate way to gather data. With statistics being so hazy, it's difficult for anyone to get an idea of just how incidental homosexuality actually is. All the studies I've looked over so far disagree with one another far too much, and their methods of research are often too questionable to have any credibility. I'm afraid that no matter how much want to gather honest statistics, societal standards will always hinder our ability to collect any real data. 65.6.42.22 18:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the quest to gather data on the incidence of homosexuality is a fruitless cause; when there is no absolute definition of what gay actually is, how can it, or they, be counted? The notion of researchers applying a label to a subject based on the subject's observed sexual behaviour is equally faulty as it relies on the researcher's bias towards what constitutes gay and what doesn't. All that could ever be quantified are those who admittedly self-identify as gay, and, as pointed out, societal standards will affect how forthcoming those surveyed will answer. Because the label and how it is applied is hazy, the statistics regarding it will always be just as hazy. --G2bambino 19:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that its quite simple. Do you identify as homosexual? Its not about acts but rather classification. Technically I am homosexually yet I would answer no, because I do not identify as such. To all extents and purposes this is all that is needed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.206.110.24 (talk) 11:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

Homosexuality in ancient Buddhist and Samurai practices?

If there is to be assumptions noted on homosexuality being present in ancient Buddhist and Samurai practices, I think it would be best to cite them. There shouldn't be remarks like that unless you can provide otherwise. SprSynJn 17:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

This is well-known. See Shudo. -- lazy anonymous

Not so ancient either - the formal tradition only died out in the eighteen hundreds. Haiduc 19:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

And it's exceedingly well documented. Exploding Boy 23:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Well-known? Possibly, depending on where you are. I dont know where you came up with the conclusion "exceedingly well documented" when the main article does not cite sources. The Shudo string that lazy posted does have a source, which is good. Not sure if it is valid or not, will have to look into the book to determine that. SprSynJn 18:37, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

In Japan, it was called "yaoi". It was the relationship between two men, mostly referenced to an older man and a younger man, though it can be meant for both. It was a common practice in the 1800's, looked down upon, but common none the less. --Majinvegeta 17:48, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The Roman Catholic Church

The following entry should be slightly modified:

"The Roman Catholic Church requires homosexuals to practice chastity in the understanding that homosexual acts are 'intrinsically disordered', and 'contrary to the natural law'. It insists that all are expected to only have heterosexual relations and only in the context of a marriage . . ."

The second sentence should be modified to read:

"It insists that any persons who do not intend to remain celibate should have only lawful sexual relations (that is, intercourse only within the context of marriage) . . ."

Problems with the existing entry:

1) The clumsy writing seems to imply that the Catholic Church insists on compulsory "heterosexual relations". In fact, the Church insists, first, on virginity or celibacy. Chaste (or lawful) intercourse would then be a secondary activity within the proper context of marriage.

As Cardinal Ratzinger wrote in "The Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons" (1986): "Christians who are homosexual are called, as all of us are, to a chaste life." (Section 12) Note the phrase "as all of us are": even those who are married are called to live chastely.

2) "Heterosexual relations" is too broad because it subsumes many sexual activities not sanctioned by the Church. That is, not all "heterosexual relations" are "chaste" in the eyes of the Church.

It is also worth noting that the Church refers to "heterosexuals" and "homosexuals" only in a heuristic sense -- that is, references in Church documents to "heterosexuals" or "homosexuals" should not be taken to imply that it regards "heterosexuality" or "homosexuality" as spiritually essential or objective conditions. As Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger wrote in "The Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons" (1986):

"The human person, made in the image and likeness of God, can hardly be adequately described by a reductionist reference to his or her sexual orientation . . . the Church provides a badly needed context for the care of the human person when she refuses to consider the person as a 'heterosexual' or a 'homosexual' and insists that every person has a fundamental Identity: the creature of God . . ." (Section 16)

It should thus be borne in mind that the Church's spiritual notions of personal identity are historically very different from (and incompatible with) any materialist or quasi-Freudian notions that treat desire (specifically, sexual desire) as the constitutive element of the individual.

(Also, I'm not sure that "Roman" Catholic is correct. The Catholic Church's views on "homosexuality" would presumably apply to Catholics who observe the Byzantine rite as well as those who observe the Roman rite.)

Huh...what about Byzantine rite Catholics? Are they better placed under Catholic or Orthodox as far as this question goes...or do they need their own category? I don't think we can quite say they're "presumably" in line with Rome on this. I know some Byzantine-rite Catholics are part of Axios, so... Also, anon guy, can you source the claim that the church privileges celibacy above lawful married sexuality? I remember that as being the subject of a lot of waffling and debate. Also, do you happen to know the origin of the term "homogenital"? Do you see it in official statements of the church? Also, can you give sources for the Ratzinger quotes, in case we want to incorporate them into the article? DanB DanD 17:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

    * * * * *

Hi Dan, sorry for the tardy response.

1) Virginity vs. Chaste Marriage: Augustine: "by divine law continence is preferred to marriage and holy virginity to wedlock" (De Sancta Virginitate, Oxford, 2001, p. 67); "the chastity of continence is better than the chastity of marriage, though both are a good" (De Bono Coniugali, Oxford, 2001, p. 53); "marriage and virginity are two goods, of which the second is the greater" (De Bono Coniugali, p. 55). Council of Trent: "CANON X.-If any one saith, that the marriage state is to be placed above the state of virginity, or of celibacy, and that it is not better and more blessed to remain in virginity, or in celibacy, than to be united in matrimony; let him be anathema." Link: http://history.hanover.edu/texts/Trent/trentcom.html

2) Ratzinger quotes: "The Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons" in Origins: Catholic News Service Documentary Service 16, no. 22 (November 13, 1986). Or see the following: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html

3) Re "homogenital": I have no idea.

4) Axios, etc.: I was simply pointing to the fact that if "Roman" in "Roman Catholic" is used to indicate a difference in RITE (Roman vs. Byzantine), then the word "Roman" is misleading (and irrelevant). Yes, there is within the Catholic Church a difference between Roman and Byzantine rites. It does not follow, however, that there is a difference in DOCTRINES. Eastern (or "Greek") Catholics hold the same doctrines concerning "homosexuality" as do Western ("Roman") Catholics. Thus, while there is a Catholic teaching about "homosexuality", it does not follow that there is a specifically "Roman" Catholic teaching. As for Axios: that has to do with the personal opinions of Orthodox Christians who self-identify as "gay" -- but it has nothing to do with church doctrine. Similary, once can find a Roman Catholic such as Andrew Sullivan who not only self-identifies as "gay", but who also speaks in favor of gay (or same-sex) marriage. But again, such personal opinions can hardly be confused with church doctrine.

5) Another problem with the entry: "the Roman Catholic Church, requires homosexuals to practice chastity". I would write instead, "the . . . Church, requires those who experience homosexual desires to practice chastity". As the Ratzinger quote above shows, the Church uses the words "heterosexual" and "homosexual" to point to the character of a DESIRE, not to define the nature of a PERSON. Freudians and marketers targeting a demographic may think in terms of "heterosexuals" or "homosexuals", "heterosexual persons" or "homosexual persons" -- the Church, however, does not. As I wrote earlier, "the Church's spiritual notions of personal identity are historically very different from (and incompatible with) any contemporary quasi-Freudian notions that treat desire (specifically, sexual desire) as the constitutive element of the individual." I stress this in order to highlight how Catholic presuppositions about "sexuality" differ markedly from the presupposions implicit in almost every entry on this page.

Regards,

Brothers and Homosexuality

From the Wiki article: "In a study comparing the effects of being raised with older "brothers" and having biological older brothers, published July 26, 2006 in PNAS, Bogaert found that there was a link to homosexuality only if the older brothers were biologically related and even when they were not raised together.[10] "

Bogaert did the follow-up study because of objections that the homosexual connection could just as well be associated with social relationships as with biological effects. His finding that it doesn't affect non-biological brothers overlooks the fact that non-biologically related brothers undoubtedly have an entirely different attitude regarding jealousy, etc. between each other.

Bogaert's 1996 study was strongly criticized. Many pointed out that siblings' behavioral influence on each other, particularly the older male sibling on the younger, is the most probable cause of any statistical showing that younger male siblings were more likely to be homosexual than the average in society.

So Bogaert got grant money to do a follow-up. This time he would study male siblings where the other family siblings are adopted or from families created by re-marriage. His statistics show that in these situations there is no trend towards homosexuality. Therefore, it must be because of the mother's hormones.

Nonsense, again. For all these siblings know who is biologically connected. The emotive reaction to genetic older siblings (on the part of all family members) is bound to be different, as is their behavior towards each other. Not only is there knowledge by family members. Those outside the family know it. And the intimacy of close contact from birth is bound to differ in such situations. In fact, if you take away his biological connection, it would tend to prove the opposite, i.e., that older male siblings' dominant relation and the inner-family dynamic of desire for approval from the biologic parents may have some effect on a homosexual orientation.

Bogaert's study should lead social scientists to compare this situation with numerous studies showing the relationship between first borns and older siblings with younger ones, rather than jumping to biologic conclusions. It would be particularly interesting to see if there are studies in this area (economic success of first-born compared to subsequently born; differences in age; choice of jobs; effect on middle child, etc) involving siblings who are adopted or are re-marriages.

In other words, we are aware of trends regarding 1st, middle, final sibling, etc. regarding different types of economic and social "success." How about comparisons of biological siblings and non-biological siblings in this area? Is there any substantial comparison between the biologically related siblings and those that are not biologically related? If the non-biological siblings don't follow the same pattern as the biologically related ones, that would tend to also disprove Bogaert's argument regarding non-biological brothers

Note also, that all of this is just a wild assumption by someone trying to prove a biological connection (which no one has ever shown) by a sociologic statistic. There is no medical proof. His answer, like that of most psychologists today, is to throw up their hands and declare: "It must be [entirely] biology (including chemistry) because we were so wrong when we declared homosexuality to be a mental disorder."

Eventually, someone will figure out that like the infamous I.Q. tests that once claimed that race determined intelligence, our emotive relations with other is a bundle of many factors including biological randomness, society, and intrafamily relationships.

In full agreeance. Seems to be the general outcome in most psychological debates. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.206.110.24 (talk) 11:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

Sexual Identities Template

I added it again, its more insclusive now, and not simply seemingly a redundancy of the sexual orientation box, i think it should be included.. any thoughts? Qrc2006 00:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

As the person who removed it a couple of times as "not ready for prime-time," I can say that I'm pleased with the evolution of this template. It's already led me to a couple of articles I hadn't visited before. CovenantD 01:05, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I think three related templates on the same pages is a bit messy. Is there any way the three can be integrated? DanB†DanD 01:37, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Albanian virgins

The reference to Albanian virgins seems out of place with the section it's in, and with the article in general. From what I've been able to find about the practice, it has nothing intrinsic to do with homosexuality, let alone with the structure of a homosexual relationship. Has this been brought up before? --Rschmertz 04:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Hm, I'm not familiar with it, either, but it doesn't seem pertinent at first glance. I'm inclined to wait a bit for any objections, but if none seem to be forthcoming, it may as well be edited out. Luna Santin 18:54, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I googled it, and it seems to be mostly a way for women to get out of an arranged marriage by giving up all sex forever. That hardly seems like getting the "rights of a man" since according to what I read her sex life was just as fiercely policed afterward. DanB†DanD 20:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

They reject heterosexuality. Definitely a orientation change there. They reject the dress of women and dress as men. They may drink as men. They may smoke as men. They may own and transfer property as men. It's at least andro and perhaps butch and definitely transgendered and it belongs in this category. They are definitely living a homo life, regardless of what they do with their genitalia or not. Traditional Homosexualities Women Who Became Men Neutralaccounting 17:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

They reject ALL sexuality, homo or hetero - hence the term "Sworn Virgins". The social convention was apparently a response to a chronic shortage of men in Balkan society due to incessant, lethal feuding - it permitted women to renounce all sexual expression and take on the social roles of men, including smoking, drinking, playing certain musical instruments and probably most importantly, pursuing stereotypical male occupations in society such as blacksmith or weapons manufacturer. Although in some cases there may be a transgender proclivity in some who take advantage of this opportunity to switch gender roles in general, it is an asexual societal position: all sexual expression is forsworn, operationally neutering the participants. Doesn't seem to belong in a general article on homosexuality at all. - User QuantumDriel.

Here's the wiki article: Sworn virgin. Seems pretty tangential to homosexuality. DanB†DanD 18:19, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Erratic Russian Link

At the top of the list of links to WP articles in other languages, I'm seeing a link with text "Pyccknn" (latin approximation, cut me some slack) linking to something that appears to be a category or template re:LGBT or so. I can't find the Wiki markup that creates this link; can anybody help? The regular Russian link to the homosexuality article seems to be in the proper place, doing the correct thing. --Rschmertz 16:06, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The template LGBT had a link to the Russian category, which in turn made this page (and any other page with that template) have a link to it. I removed it. -Branddobbe 02:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

'Homosexuality' as a Social Construction

The article does not reflect the serious body of work that views homosexuality as a social construct, notably from Foucault. Such views, if valid, provide serious limitations to the use of such terms. 'Homosexuality' as a concept can be viewed as a historico-cultural peculiarity of 19th century attempts to classify types of person and personalities. In other times and cultures such concepts make little sense e.g. the compulsory same sex activity prevalent in the Spartan armed forces or the ritualised male fellatio in Melanesian society. Even in today's society, it's far from clear that terms such as 'homosexual' or 'heterosexual' are at all useful except, perhaps, in making casual generalisations about behaviour or preference.--Nmcmurdo 00:24, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

"Gay" and "lesbian" are POV?

Nmcmurdo,

I don't understand your objection to the sentence about the adjective 'homosexual' (you wrote: "Deleted sentence which presumes the ontological status of 'gay' and 'lesbian' - POV"). Is there really such disagreement about the meaning of these words? I confess that I don't understand what ontological means. --Rschmertz 17:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi. The sentence in question chose to draw a distinction between 'homosexual relations' and 'being' (hence the ontological reference) 'gay' or 'lesbian'. Such a distinction assumes as a premise that nature of being gay or lesbian is not behaviourally defined. This is a common view, but it is one that can be and is contested. I can't define ontological any better than Wikipedia! --Nmcmurdo 18:22, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm an anonymous wikipedian, but for what it is worth, I support this.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.45.168.167 (talk) 12:48, October 29, 2006 (UTC)

You support what? --Rschmertz 17:49, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

FOUR different templates???

The page looks kind of crappy and disorganized now with all those different templates and portal graphics jammed up against each other. Are they really all necessary? DanB†DanD 21:12, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

New article on homosexuality in nature

As a newly registered user I cannot add any part of the article I found (titled "Birds and bees may be gay: museum exhibition") to this one, but maybe someone could check out this link and consider adding a reference to this article: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=10405795.

The Birds and Bees article cited a scientist: "Geir Soeli, the project leader of the exhibition entitled 'Against Nature,' told Reuters: 'Homosexuality has been observed for more than 1,500 animal species, and is well documented for 500 of them.'"

The article also explores why homosexuality occurs in nature, when it appears to be a genetic dead-end: "Still, it is unclear why homosexuality survives since it seems a genetic dead-end.

Among theories, males can sometimes win greater acceptance in a pack by having homosexual contact. That in turn can help their chances of later mating with females, he said.

And a study of homosexual men in Italy suggested that their mothers and sisters had more offspring. "The same genes that give homosexuality in men could give higher fertility among women," he said."

The "he" in that quote is also Geir Soeli.

Shannon Bullock 02:07, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

NARTH

Please add http://narth.com/ to the list of external references — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.99.32.206 (talk • contribs)

No. NARTH is a hate group on par with Focus on the Family, American Family Association, and Family Research Council. Request denied! E. Sn0 =31337= 05:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, anyone who disagrees with the current conventional wisdom is a "hate group"? What a convenient excuse to avoid making this article more accurate and less one-sided than it clearly is. There is not ONE single article or link to a contrary source and/or POV. If this website wasn't run by a bunch of leftists -- if it was truly the neutral site it claims to be -- this entire article would be makred as a violation of NPOV. --Theadversary 18:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

How about you do a regex (regular expression, aka find-replace) of gay into african {or interracial in the case of gay marriage} to any homophobic argument, compare the result with old racist claptrap, then try to tell me homophobia isn't hate. Bigotry is not a valid POV. Thank you. E. Sn0 =31337= 22:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The problem with your "analysis" is your ridiculously broad definition of "homophobia". NARTH is not "homophobic". Your argument assumes facts not in evidence based upon your own slanted view of the world, which seems to be, "anyone who disagrees with a homosexual is a homophobe." NARTH is a professional organization, does not hate homosexuals, and has a valid point of view. YOU are the hater here who is clearly engaged in a non-neutral attempt at jamming a message you don't like -- straight out of the homosexual special rights activist playbook. Theadversary 15:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

"current conventional wisdom" is not what your opinion... narth, focus on the family, and AFA share the viewpoint of a very, very small minority of people at the most... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.136.197 (talk • contribs)

As well it should be. E. Sn0 =31337= 18:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Really? Either of you have some proof to back that up? You'd better check the number of states who have recently enacted statutes and constitutional amendments to prevent gay marriage. Some of those votes have occurred in liberal, pro-gay mecas like California, and some have been by 3 to 1 margins. Theadversary 16:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the link would fit better on the "ex gay" page? Fitz05 20:06, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes it would. E. Sn0 =31337= 20:21, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Because heave forbid we actually have a neutral page on homosexuality on Wikipedia. Theadversary 16:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Does anybody have a reliable source stating that this Narth group is a hate group? Otherwise, I see no reason not to include it. Remember people, we're not supposed to edit based on what we think, but rather on what we can cite properly. --Wildnox(talk) 16:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

No they don't, and can't, because it isn't. But don't take my word for it either, check NARTH out for yourself. Theadversary 16:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Given that NARTH is focused on curing homosexuality and isn't about homosexuality, I don't believe it belongs in this article. Just my $0.02US... -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 18:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the way that Theadversary added the link to the article is alright, or at least it would be if he cited his claim that they don't use or condone the older methods. He just put it in the Behaviour modification section, which is what NARTH is based on. Notability compared to other groups may be questionable though. --Wildnox(talk) 18:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I linked to NARTH's website, check the link in the line. Regardless, this entire section needs a rewrite. It is so biased it isn't even funny. It starts out from the position that no "reputable" therapist practices reparative therapy because of the APA's position and then goes on to talk about testicles being wired with a pathetic link to an unsourced opinion piece on the Southern Poverty Law Center's site. I'm going to put together a more balanced article when I get a spare minute that will try to discuss in the same space the basics of reparative therapy epitomized by NARTH, the faith-based ex-gay programs epitomized by Exodus, and the critiques of such programs that already appear here. That should clean up the serious problem with neutrality this section of the article has. Theadversary 04:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, there is no neutrality issue here. NARTH's views are that of a small fringe of bigots who have been discredited and dismissed by the entire mainstream mental health community. Wikipedia is not required to give "equal time" or "undue weight" to such groups, nor does NPOV require that we somehow create "balance" where none actually exists. NARTH says one thing, literally everyone else says something else. We report that, and that's the end of it. FCYTravis 07:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

PROVE that NARTH members are bigots. Your statement is hateful and proves the lack of neutrality here. Theadversary 22:20, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

A neutral non-POV response to putting (or not putting) NARTH on the page is this: What is the empirical validity of NARTH's central claim that homosexuality is not an inborn sexual orientation analogous to left-handedness but a psycho-emotional perversion that can be cured? NARTH's claim is prima facia as reasonable as any other. The question is: Is it empirically true? The answer is no. There is an overwhelming consensus in the scientific community that homosexuality is a sexual orientation correlating with no known pathology. It may be social and/or biological origin. But all the evidence states that it is neither alterable nor pathological. One may disagree with the consensus. The consensus may be wrong. But objectively that is the scientific consensus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chandlerburr (talk • contribs)

Just to add, I've read reliable scientific studies that show that a gay person's brain is biologically different to a straight person's brain to a much lesser extent than a left-handed person's brain is to a right-handed person's brain, or than a man's brain is to a woman's. In other words we're people just like everyone else, and more physiologically (is this the correct strain of science I'm looking to refer to?) similar than somebody who's simply left-handed instead of right-handed, despite what most bigots would argue. Being a left-handed bisexual, I found this rather helpful and interesting when I read it. Though I don't have a source right now, it shouldn't be too hard to find. Scientific studies also show that sexuality is genetic and hereditary, which proves once again that NARTH is merely close-minded propaganda. Homosexuality is nothing to be "cured" or otherwise altered. Homosexuals can live a perfectly normal, happy life just like anybody else, and the only thing that could possibly stop them from this is relentless bigots who seem to want to make life difficult for anybody different than them. Life is hard enough for somebody of a non-heterosexual orientation, and we don't need "organizations" such as NARTH to present pseudo-psychology in support of bigotry. I'm going to stop myself now before I begin ranting, or ramble anymore than I already have. 4.234.30.224 08:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, scientific study shows that although genetics sometimes seem to have a strong correlation with sexual orientation, there sometimes doesn't seem to be any correlation at all. It is wrong to say sexuality is or isn't genetic. Regardless of how sexual orientation is formed, the overwhelming consensus is that it cannot be changed, but that doesn't mean it's genetic. Herorev 16:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Studies have shown that it is genetic. See the sources quoted in the article. If you have sources that show that it is not genetic, or some other perspective, then add those to the article and cite them. it is not our job to argue whether it is true, or not true, but to document reliable sources. Atom 17:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, the American Psychiatric Association removed Homosexuality from their DSM in 1987, because they concluded that homosexuals can live a normal life like anybody else. I have read this in several places, and this just proves that NARTH is furthering pseudo-science that was deemed illogical and non-scientific long ago. 4.234.30.224 08:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Questionable redirects

I was examining the redirects to this page and have picked out some that, in my opinion, are of questionable validity. However, I thought I'd get community consensus. The ones I've picked out are:

Queball
User:Mykenism (NOTE:This was set up by the user, but I don't believe user pages are supposed to redirect to article space, are they?)
Buttfuckery
Talons brain and or penis
Poofter
Steve Wisdom
That way
Yagsinujtay

Anyway, just thought I'd put this out there. - GassyGuy 05:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Poofter used to have it's own, not very good, page. It's British slang similar to faggot. The article said it was also Australian and somewhat more lighthearted than faggot, although I'm not sure of those two. Is there a page on anti-gay pejorative terms in general. If so, it should be mentioned there. I tried doing a quick search but couldn't find one. Ungovernable Force^{Got something to say?} 05:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Poofter is more lighthearted / less offensive than faggot, I've even heard gay people themselves use it to describe themselves. --cocainekongpow 15:26, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

That doesnt make it less offensive, its about the context. To be honest, I dont think most people will type "faggot" or "buttfuckery" into wikipedia for any other reason than boredom or childish humour. Fitz05 00:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Buttfuckery now redirects to Anal sex. -- Steel 15:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

And now it's back here again... -- Steel 00:27, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

And now that I check it, it has been deleted. It makes sense that it would go to Anal sex though JayKeaton 09:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Is the Falun Gong homophobic

Some editors are having a heated debate on whether the Falun gong is homophobic. The following quotes are from the leader of this group Master Li Hongzhi.

According to Li homosexuality is the leading indicator of the depravity and regression of our society. Gays are more visible than ever and laws have been created to protect their evil life style. In Li’s poem “the World’s Ten Evils,” he states: “homosexuality, licentious desires—dark heart, turning demonic.” [1] Li’s strongest words against gays come from a lecture in Switzerland. Homosexuality was one of the factors that led to the collapse of the Greek civilization, he said. Furthermore, “Homosexuals not only violate the standards that gods set for mankind, but also damage human society’s moral code. In particular, the impression it gives children will turn future societies into something demonic.” [2] Li describes a special kind of suffering for homosexuals. They will be made to undergo a particularly slow and painful annihilation: “That person is annihilated layer after layer at a rate that seems pretty rapid to us, but in fact it’s extremely slow in that time field. Over and over again, one is annihilated in an extremely painful way.” [3]

It would be great if you could come to this page and vote your opinion here. Thanks --Samuel Luo 04:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

• Going by Li's own words, there is no question whatsoever that they are homophobic to the extreme, with a possible potential for violence.  E. Sn0 =31337= ^{Talk to me :D} 04:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Article Length

This article, although overall a well written entry, is becoming entirely too long. I understand that homosexuality (and sexuality in general) has become quite the issue as of late; I do think that there is a value in short, concise sections whenever possible, or perhaps redirects to new pages. I think we should all come to a consensus on what to cut, keep, and move. I'm more than willing to do this, but want feedback.Trodaikid1983 05:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the section of "Homosexuality and Society" deserves its own page? Fitz05 13:11, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

While this article can certainly be tightened up a bit it will never be among the shorter ones. Already a great many of the sections are merely abstracts of other articles. But there are some obvious candidates for removal or tightening up.

1. Physiological differences in homosexual persons - Abstract and move to Biology and sexual orientation
2. Father-son Relationships and Male Sexual Development - abstract and consolidate into Biology and sexual orientation
3. Psychology - Much of the Kinsey reports material should be consolidated there,
4. United States Military - should be moved to Sexual orientation and military service
5. Polemic - should be tightened up and citations cleaned up

There is also a great deal of work to be done providing proper citations for much valid material that lacks references. I too am willing to help with this. Haiduc 15:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The article is too long because of RECOMBINATION. For example, "History of homosexuality" was merged into this one, and now where is it?→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 10:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems like the three largest sections, Study, Society, History, could be simply split off into seperate articles. --Carterhawk 04:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I've just been bold, editing and adding content as seemed good to me; but this has added to the length of this unwieldy article. Sorry!  :-) For what it's worth, I agree with Carterhawk: Study, Society, and History (everything before the 20th century), plus Art & Literature, would be good sub-articles to split this into. Textorus 07:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Addition of non-visable header in the edit page

I've added the following tag to the "Edit this page" window:

Before you edit this page please keep in mind that this page is being watched and that vandalism will be quickly removed and tracked.

Although I understand editing is limited to registered, established users, the tag still may help. Also, I am adding this article to my watch list. I will revert blatent vandalism, but will refrain from edits until discussion is commenced. Thanks for everyone's help! Trodaikid1983 02:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Treatment of Homosexuality

I'm sick of wrestling with religious zealots over the "Behavior Modification" section in the article, I've edited the article and believe that the most NPOV way I can describe FMI is "vehemently anti-gay", it should also make the right wing POV more difficult to gain traction now that I've mentioned that the American Psychiatric Association removed Homosexuality from their DSM in 1987, leaving such supposed "treatment" to nutjob firebrand preachers with some jump cables and a car battery. (sarcasm)Izanbardprince 01:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Question

CovenantD, what information do you have to justify deleting that sentence. How has Paul Cameron been discredited? This I'm wondering on a personal as well as an editorial level. ---Imgi12—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Imgi12 (talk • contribs) 07:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

Read Paul Cameron (researcher). That recounts how he's been denounced by his peers, the flaws in his methodology and the selective and biased use of his "work" to promote a POV. CovenantD 07:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I see, I willingly rescind my position on posting his research. Thank you. ---Imgi12

I wish more people think as you do. Some people get angry and pursue vendettas when told their position on something is wrong. Your open-mindedness is a breath of fresh air! 22:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

 E. Sn0 =31337= ^Talk has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:smile}}, {{subst:smile2}} or {{subst:smile3}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Homosexual Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

Hi There,

Just thought it might be possible to mention HOCD at some point. For those of you who aren't aware, HOCD is a form of OCD where the suufferer, while being straight, has obsessive thoughts about being gay that cannot be resolved. This happens to both men and women, and even to some gay people (they have fears that they're actually straight!). A full defintion can be found here: [4]. If you google HOCD you can find a number of references to it in a number of places.

I think a brief mention at some point would be helpful to anyone suffering from HOCD. There is no article about HOCD on Wikipedia yet, but I'm thinking of writing one soon.

When I get around to it, I'm going to try to write an article on HOCD as well.

This condition is very complicated, stressful and susceptible to doubt (speaking from experience). The worst thing for me right now would be for someone to reply saying 'sounds like you're gay' or encouraging me to come out of the closet! Please read [5] for a gay person's perspective on HOCD.

Thanks.

Ok first of all, WTF?!?!? It sound like another thing that makes people think that there is somthing wrong with them for being gay. I say that this HOCD is somthing that people made up.--Dil 20:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

OK .... did you even read my last paragraph? Did you even bother to read the articles?? This post has only been up for 45 seconds. Please be a little open-minded. I have gay friends and am an open-minded, progressive, type with no prejudices against gays at all. Please think and research before you speak, especially when someone has implored you to do so from concerns for their own health. Please read the article by the gay guy which should give you a helpful perspective on HOCD.--Anon

I don't think something like that really belongs in the homosexuality article, plainly because calling it OCD is misleading. Many homosexuals go through times were they may doubt themselves, and heterosexuals obviously do to. OCD, by definition, is the process of repeating specific things in a routine, which the sufferer feels is necessary to live day by day. Creation of another artcile would be fine, but I don't believe it should be in this artcile. Also, please sign your discussion entries. Thanks! Trodaikid1983 20:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course I looked at the articles that you posted and I stand by what I said.--Dil 21:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I first came across it on the Wikipedia OCD page - it is actually a form of OCD. The articles I cited above and a bit of googling will show you that it wasn't 'invented' by the people at the brainphysics site. I'm not suggesting a major section, just a brief mention and a link once the page is up. I have been in contact with a number of people suffering from this and it is a real problem. I can see that there will be a barrier getting a mention to it on this page and realise that some of you may have a perspective/fears that will make the acceptance of its existence somehow threatening, but the human mind finds a lot of ways to mess with good people and this is one of them.60.241.11.74 21:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Apparently it is a recognized form of OCD. I don't see why it has any place here though. It is a form of OCD, and being Homosexual has nothing to do with OCD, or any other mental disease. As is pointed out here, and in the articles, it is when someone who is not homosexual has a compulsive concern that they may be gay, or be perceived as gay. This article is about homosexuality, not about people who have a disorder because they are afraid they might be homosexual. Atom 22:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. People with OCD obsess about lots of different stuff, and it makes no sense to mention on hundreds of articles that some people with OCD obsess about the topic. For example, it would be out of place to mention in the natural disasters article that some people with OCD obsess about natural disasters. Same for death, suicide, germs, etc. Herorev 01:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

About religious zealots attempting to delete the truth

Despite your delirious notions that homosexuality is a "disease" to be "cured", the fact of the matter is that it isn't and it can't be, the more scientific studies are done on the subject, the more your lies disintegrate when exposed to the daylight.

Anyway, if you could please not resort to your usual behavior towards the truth, which is usually trying to delete it when it doesn't serve your purpose, I would appreciate it.

Anyway, the reason I reverted CC80's edit is because this is a section devoted towards "Behavior modification", I really don't see how it's "unbalanced", it mentions the techniques that have been tried (and failed) to "cure" a "disease" that doesn't exist, and I cited it properly with respected organizations, such as the APA.

Thank you, good night, and may the Flying Spaghetti Monster bless you all.

Izanbardprince 09:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Shock Therapy

Despite YOUR claims to cite everything you write, you never did cite a book, website, documentary or other proving that some reperative ministries use shock therapy to men's testicles. Could it be that you don't have any such documentation?Imgi12 15:15, 13 December 2006

Actually he did cite it. Here is a direct quote from one of the citations he provided in his edits(with linkage) "In the not-so-distant past, gays and lesbians were routinely subjected to "reparative therapy" that included barbarous "aversion techniques" designed to "cure" them of homosexuality. Gay men were shown pictures of naked men and then administered electric shocks through electrodes attached to their testicles, or made to ingest drugs that made them vomit.". I don't understand why two editors now have failed to check the sources provided. --Wildnox 22:31, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps because the link itself is not sourced. It is an OPINION piece on the Southern Poverty Law Center's web site. It has absolutely NO links or cites to sources of when, where, why, who, etc. practiced such "treatments". In short, the link does not verify anything. Theadversary 22:24, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Granted

O.K. so he did cite it, it still isn't worded properly. His citation says "In the not so distant PAST". The article makes it sound like this is something that is ongoing.

Imgi12 01:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I reworded with "has in the past included".--Wildnox(talk) 12:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

About a pro-homosexual group

Izanbardprince deleted my reference to the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance as a pro-homosexual group claiming that they encourage discussion. This is false. My evidence is here: [[6]]. Number 15 on this list of "hoaxes" is reparative therapy, a type of behaviour modification. The personal note by the author of this page [[7]] also proves this group's bias. His note is found near the bottom of the page. I believe this to be sufficient evidence to identify them in the article as the pro-homosexual group that they are.

Imgi12 19:28 14, December 2006

So you think somebody who is neutral would have to support behaviour modifcation? You know, anybody can have a mixture of opinions, some for, some against, so two statements don't mean much. The arguement is moot anyway since you've used your own interpretation and synthesis to come to that conclusion with your evidence. --Wildnox(talk) 02:43, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand, if you can cite a reliable source stating that they are pro-homosexual, that would be different and I would support the addition of "pro-homosexual". --Wildnox(talk) 02:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Just because the group "suspects [reparative therapy] to be a hoax (or a partial hoax)" doesn't mean they're pro-homosexual, anymore than suspecting Satanic Ritual Abuse is a hoax means they're pro-satanists. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 02:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I read the links you provided, including the "personal note". I don't think I'm seeing your point Imgi12. The personal note is mostly attacking all "experimental therapies" including for example recovered-memory therapy. The author is merely stating that studies should be done to show evidence that the therapies actually are effective. This does not make the author pro-gay (whatever that means) anymore than an average person. Wjhonson 03:22, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Very Well

Very well. The consensus is obviously against my position. I concede.

Imgi12 04:42 ,15 December 2006

External link to Gay Movie History

I would like to suggest an external link to the [gay movie history] section of the [About Gay Movies site. I think it adds to the information on the topic of homosexuality because the history of homosexuality in movies is sympthomatic for the views on homosexuality through the centuries. Especially during the sensorship years. I have tried to add it in the past but it was always deleted because it is an external link. Please advise. 00:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Community ban of the Joan of Arc vandal

This article has been targeted in recent weeks by CC80, a sockpuppet of the Joan of Arc vandal. This and similar articles may be targeted again by other sockpuppets of the same person.

A vandal who has damaged Wikipedia's Catholicism, Christianity, cross-dressing, and homosexuality articles for over two years has been identified and community banned. This person will probably attempt to continue disruption on sockpuppet accounts. Please be alert for suspicious activity. Due to the complexity of this unusual case, the best place to report additional suspicious activity is probably to my user talk page because I was the primary investigating administrator. Durova^Charge! 17:14, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Military cleanup?

Looking over the military section, some changes occurred to me and I wanted to run them by others before making them:

1. The very first "section" is just a link to the Eur. Court of Human Rights ruling - can this be put someplace else? Maybe the "In Modern Times" section?
2. Ditto with the orphan "Nazi Germany" link?
3. The "United States Military" section is either covered or should be covered in the "[Sexual orientation and military service#United States' history United States History]" section of the "Sexual orientation and military service" article. That article needs to be cleaned up, too, but that's not for discussion here...

With those three changes, the military section will be neatly organized into ancient, past, and present and should be fairly clean. Thoughts? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 15:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Big Pile of POV

Could someone please erase the big pile of POV anti-homosexuality rant before contents table. Since it is so obviously POV I don't think it is really encyclopedic to be included in this article or at least in this way at all.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.7.241.35 (talk) 14:53, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I personally can't see what's POV about it. It seems pretty balanced to me. Chairman S. Talk ^Contribs 03:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything non-NPOV or anti-homosexuality about it either. Aleta 11:10, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Homosexuality in India

How come there is no article on Homosexuality in India? India happens to be the second largest populated country in the world. Obviously there would be huge number of homosexuals in India. It would be great if some one can research and add the article under the different countries mentioned. Indian subcontinent countries should fall under the category South Asia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.73.204.117 (talk) 03:58, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

Well, From what I know homosexuality might very well be repressed and/or not very outspoken in India. However, I know next to nothing about gays in india and i'm guessing all of this from the fact i've heard somewhere that india is mostly Muslim. (Muslims to me seem to generally dislike Gay's, just like Christians and Hebrews (Jew's, i kinda consider Jew a racial slur so... yea) due to relegious teachings.

Maybe someone else on wikipedia knows..... Nateland 21:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

The Indian Penal seems to imply that homosexuality is illegal. "Whoever voluntarily has carnal intercourse against the order of nature with any man, woman or animal, shall be punished with [life imprisonment], which may extend to ten years, and shall also be liable to fine... Penetration is sufficient to constitute [this]." There's more information on the Homosexuality in India article. If there's no link on this page I might add one (done! 20:04).

Indians are mainly (80.5%) Hindus, by the way. -- User:Wozocoxonoy 19:53 10/01/2007 (GMT)

Times misreports that homosexual sheep changed to heterosexual in recent scientific study

Someone may want to incorporate the findings in this article into this page. The findings are pretty significant. VegaDark 05:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

What findings? At least that article linked gives no findings and only says what they are trying to do. It doesn't sound like they have any results yet. at most it should get one or two sentences in a current controversies section. Aleta 07:43, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

"By varying the hormone levels, mainly by injecting hormones into the brain, they have had “considerable success” in altering the rams’ sexuality, with some previously gay animals becoming attracted to ewes." - Successfully changing a homosexual sheep to a heterosexual one is huge news. VegaDark 09:15, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

This article was retracted. Futurix 13:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Yep, the Times have now admitted to a publishing ill-informed rubbish. Ben Goldacre takes it apart here http://www.badscience.net/?p=347#more-347 --Nmcmurdo 20:08, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow...after all those glaring errors, can timesonline.co.uk no longer be considered a reliable source? Publishing something like that when it is patently untrue is inexcusable. VegaDark 20:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeh, that drops them down a few notches in my book... But I had a wonderful laugh reading the BadScience link above :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 20:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it's great that there are people out there doing sites like BadScience. Journalists frequently trot out utter nonsense on scientific subjects - it's heartening to note that there are people out there ready to bring the publication to shame when they get it so horribly wrong. --Nmcmurdo 20:50, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

This should be a lesson to anyone who uses newspaper articles to back up scientific arguments. Editors just want a story: 'Obscure study of farm animal sexuality yields inconclusive and uninteresting results' won't make the front page. 'Gay sheep made straight' willl. Journalists deliberately twist the facts, or make stuff up, to sell papers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.196.239.189 (talk) 16:02, 18 January 2007 (UTC).

question

If a guy stop liking guys and start liking girls only are they homosexuality anymore? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shirleybiscuit (talk • contribs) 22:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC).

• Probably not. Sofeil 05:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a forum, so please refrain from asking questions like this. But while we're on the suject, I don't think "homosexuality" is as simple as deciding to be gay or not. I would consider them bisexual if a change in sexuality ever occurred. --Majinvegeta 17:53, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

It depends whether you think these terms are useful for describing people. See the comment at [8] for example.--Nmcmurdo 00:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

'Uranism'?

Where does the name 'Uranism' come from? Sofeil 05:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean "Uranian"? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 05:54, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I guess you have answered my question now. Thank you. I was reading a translation of an essay in German. I guess it's more common to use "Uranian" as a verb in German. Sofeil 09:50, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

As a verb? garik 09:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Why are "homosexual" and "gay" two separate articles?

I understand the history of both the terms, but don't they mean the same thing at this point? Do they each need their own article? (Asking at Gay as well.) Joie de Vivre 23:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

That's easy -- take a look at the two articles and you'll see. Gay is about the term itself, and discusses its use not only to describe homosexuality (a fairly scientific term), but ways it has come to be used for other things ("that's so gay"). The Homosexuality article is not about a word (though there is some discussion on it); it is about the condition. Add to that the fact that Homosexuality is overly long, and it's clear to me that extended discussion of the term "gay" is best kept out of the Homosexuality article. --Rschmertz 23:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I know, but Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Is it really necessary to have two separate articles for two words that have the same meaning? I don't think the discussion of the pejorative usage is particularly relevant; it could be pared down. Joie de Vivre 23:42, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I can see where you're coming from, but despite being about the word, not the phenomenon, the Gay article isn't really a dictionary entry. That should be clear from the style of it. I realise that almost any word could be taken from the dictionary and its history traced and explored in an encyclopaedic article like this - that could get silly if taken too far. I think this one's special though. The word's had a particularly interesting history. It's also an almost international word. Compare Okay. I think the section on the pejorative usage is another reason why there should be two articles - 'gay' does not always mean homosexual. garik 00:01, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Not getting it

Don't know how to do this so here goes:
Why is the revised article not available at location Homosexuality. The Homosexuality article is vague, broad and biased in comparison to the revised article --Ismailova 21:07, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand, can you explain? Joie de Vivre 19:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Too many boxes

I just removed the "Sexual Orientation" box, as the info in it is generally covered in other boxes on the page. Aleta 00:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

egalitarian, gender-structured, age-structured?

The "egalitarian, gender-structured, age-structured" distinction plays a prominent role in the article. Does it deserve to? I'm not a scholar on this topic, but I've never seen the distinction outside of this article. Is there consensus amongst scholars that this is a defining part of the framework of how we should think about homosexuality? If not, I propose phasing it out. Fireplace 21:19, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it should be cited more rigorously. Murray, in his "Homosexualities" (2002) has an extensive discussion of the topic, and presents a lineage of thinking that supports and leads up to his work. Also, you can see another example on the U of Amsterdam website, here. Haiduc 04:04, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Haiduc. You reverted a change I made to the article on Homosexuality, specifically the removal of the third paragraph which is restated later in the article. I removed it from the introduction because being placed in the introduction gave it—I believed—an undue weight in the article. Given that the anthropological perspective stated is only one of the various ways of talking about homosexuality, it seemed strange to place it in the introduction, particularly as the idea of homosexuality as expressed by these anthropologists is pretty far from normal usage. They suggest three models in societies - one egalitarian, one gender-structured and one age-structured.

In contemporary use, you could argue that each of these three categories could be equally well used about heterosexual relationships (one where partners are equal, one where they are confined to gender roles and one where there are large age differentials between the partners, the latter being normally what we call paedophilia). There is no such passage in the introduction to the wikipedia article on heterosexuality however. I would suggest its presence in this introduction makes it see like homosexuality is an societal construct (which is debatable), that anthropology is the right way to explore it (which is highly debatable) and that it in some way is conflatable with completely different axes of identity - dom/sub, masculine/feminine, age-differential and the like. Particularly with regard to the age-differential aspect, I note that there is no written piece in the heterosexuality article which gestures towards heterosexual paedophilia (by far the more common of the two).

My suggestion was to remove the paragraph from the introduction, where it took on the apparent characteristics of notable truth, and to leave the exact same subject material in the section on anthropological views of homosexual relationships later in the page, where it could be contrasted with other interpretations and categorisations from other discipliens.

Posted by User:Tecoates at User:Haiduc's talk page, moved here for convenience.

I cannot speak for what is in the heterosexuality article, and I do not think that it is tenable to completely equate same-sex relations with opposite-sex relations, from any point of view other than orientation. Functionally, however, and socially, and historically they have clearly occupied different spaces in human experience. As for privileging anthropology, I am not sure what to say. It certainly falls within its domain, much as a discussion about the Rocky Mountains falls within the domain of geography, though it may well be covered also by botany and entomology and archeology and what not. But one has to make an editorial choice, and certainly we should attempt to have as wide a view of same sex relations in the introduction as possible, which is why I opted for that formulation.

To have the article begin with a narrow definition of homosexuality that describes well its construction in the modern West and relegates its other aspects to areas reserved for arcana seems somewhat ethnocentric and to be avoided. And finally, I am afraid that your insertion of the pedophilia red herring is completely off base. We are talking about homosexual behavior here as manifested in history. With few exceptions (Melanesia, perhaps) relations with little children were not the main focus of men's attention. Relations with adolescents, yes, but as you are probably aware, adolescents are welcomed into the gay community today pretty much everywhere, the list of gay youth programs is immeasurable, and as long as they are of legal age it is nobody's business who falls in love with whom. Ours included.

Finally, the partition of homosexual expression into various forms goes back a long way, is not only Murray, or Roscoe, who use it and teach it, and is commonsensical to boot. Haiduc 18:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Can I make it clear again here that I have no desire here to remove any of the content from the article, merely to put the paragraph on homosexuality as viewed by anthropology in the section on anthropology. As to your comments on homosexuality and heterosexuality being conflated, I repeat that it's pretty clear that there are different cultural ways of structuring heterosexual relationships that are (1) egalitarian (2) defined by different gender roles or age (3) age differential. You could argue that our current western culture is egalitarian, orthodox islamic countries are gender-based and ancient greece was age differential, for example. To single out homosexuality rather than sexuality in general for this kind of analysis emphasises homosexualities non-normativity, and to single out anthropologies contribution seems to be rather ridiculous given the amount of other material on sexual orientation that could inform the article.

I contest the idea that this is somehow ethnocentrically western to declare that homosexuality "refers to sexual interaction and / or romantic attraction between individuals of the same sex" or that "in modern use, the adjective homosexual is used for intimate relationships and/or sexual relations between people of the same sex, who may or may not identify themselves as gay or lesbian". In fact I see absolutely nothing in the first two paragraphs that privileges western attitudes except, perhaps, the concept of homosexuality itself which is—as stated—a fairly modern notion (and the notion being described in the article). That it doesn't touch on the various ways that society has framed homosexual relations through time is a problem with the article, although not with the introduction, any more than saying that an article on women that doesn't start off with a description of the various roles they've had in society is somehow ahistorical or privileges the present. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tecoates (talk • contribs) 11:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

Non controversial problem

The section "Homosexuality" in Terminology of homosexuality has a {{main}} that points to Homosexuality, and the Homosexuality article has a {{main}} which points to Terminology of homosexuality... I'm not sure how this should be resolved. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Is it even a problem? That seems to be the optimal situation to me. garik 10:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC) Modified by garik 10:56, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Bieber Statement

The statement that he made in 1976 is ignoring a causality problem. He said "that a boy whose father is warmly related and constructive will not become homosexual," this is referring to the idea that one follows the other (namely the becoming of a homosexual because of a destructive father), while there is the possibility that the father is becoming destructive because of the development of his son. The correct statement from his data would be "in a household where there is not a destructive father, there will not be any homosexual sons of that father." 69.221.232.40 02:20, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Homosexuality in specific subcultures

Hi everyone! I'm tempted to add a category/paragraph to the article that outlines views and acceptance (Or lack thereof) in specific non-religious subcultures; I.E: The Rap community. Does anyone agree that this would be a good idea, or would it contribute to overloading the page with irrelevant information?

Just asking here first as it's best to get a wider view of a change as opposed to just going ahead with it and starting an edit war, IMO. :-)

GayGoth 12:18, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

(P.S: I do have a registered account, although not in this name due to reasons of annonymity - I'm pretty much a closet case you see. :-|)

Cause

Why is the cause of homosexuality not here? (It is a genetic disorder caused by too little testosterone being delivered to the male foetus. --My Name is Snowball 15:07, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

The possible causes of homosexuality are very hotly debated, and are discussed in the article. Note that what you claim to be the cause is contradictory: you say it's genetic, but caused be environmental factors. Either way, I've not seen any good evidence for this. I hope you're not just trolling. garik 15:18, 17 February 2007 (UTC) modified by garik 15:19, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Because that is not the only possible theory. There is no known "cause" for homosexuality at this moment in time, and therefore it isn't in this article. If you can find verifiable links by all means input the above theory, however if the links aren't reliable they may be removed. Jacobshaven3 15:20, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

• There have been tests done with homosexual identicle twins seperated at birth. When one identicle twin is gay there is a 50% - 70% chance the other is gay. The enviroment seems to have little to no impact on a child at all. --My Name is Snowball 15:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

• • This would seem to imply a 30-50% effect from environmental factors - that's pretty large in my book, hardly "little to no". Now, just what those factors may be... I doubt we're anywhere close to teasing out all the potential factors. Aleta 02:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

• I'd also like to point out that it IS a genetic disorder. Saying it isn't is like saying dyslexia or sickle cell anemia isn't. It is a genetic malfunction which offers no benefit. --82.36.177.31 15:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Any scientific proof available? Futurix 02:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Not great other examples either - sickle cell trait has known benefits of protection against malaria. Aleta 02:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The whole idea it's a genetic disorder is quite unscientific really. Unless every homosexual or bisexual (is that a genetic disorder as well?) has had an identical genetic mutation, then most of them must have a family background of homosexuality, since that's the only way a Genetic Anomaly could occur. Plus, if that was true, every child who had a homosexual or bisexual parent would have to also be homosexual or bisexual, or would have a very high chance at the very least. This has already shown to be not true in studies. I'd also like to add that if a child doesn't receive the usual amount of testosterone, that's an Environmental factor, not a genetic one. Jacobshaven3 10:43, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I remember reading a book by Alan and Barbra Pease, I think it was called "Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps" it may be outdated now but some research was carried out for that that supported the idea that homosexuality was genetic and that it is ingerited from the mothers side as the "gay" gene is located in the X chromosome.