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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by HolaQuetzalcoatl (talk | contribs) at 15:17, 22 September 2022 (→‎Requested move 18 September 2022: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Earl of Wessex and Forfar

Prince Edward is now listed as this, but does it not suggest that it is one title? The Earldom of Forfar was bestowed upon His Royal Highness in 2019, ostensibly to give him a Scottish title, and is in no way linked to the English one. 92.30.70.49 (talk) 14:46, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

He has been referred to as the Earl of Wessex and Forfar in court circulars, press releases, and news reports. Falls under WP:COMMONNAME HolaQuetzalcoatl (talk) 20:11, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You beat me to it! I can see that it is now standard practice to do this, in much the same way as it was to refer to, for example, George III's second son as Duke of York and Albany as though that were one title. 92.30.70.49 (talk) 09:07, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Dukedom of York and Albany was a single title. See Duke of York and Albany. That is not the case with the Earldoms of Wessex and Forfar--each earldom is a separate title. Aoi (青い) (talk) 09:56, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This must be what threw me. I can now see that 'Duke of York' and 'Duke of Albany' differ from 'Duke of York and Albany'. In the case of 'Earl of Wessex and Forfar', I figure that, even when used officially, the confusion over whether this seems to constitute one title is why the debate over Prince Edward's page title continues... 92.30.70.49 (talk) 01:20, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 18 September 2022

Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex → Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex and Forfar – I think in the UK he's known simply as "prince Edward", and if we're going to start saying his titles, naming the English earldom of Wessex and not the Scottish earldom of Forfar sounds a bit disrespectul to Scotland. Alternatively, something that doesn't mention any of the 2 earldoms would also be fine. And this may become a moot point in the future if he gets given the dukedom of Edinburgh (but, of course, that would be WP:CRYSTAL). Dr. Vogel (talk) 18:15, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support We don't know if he'll ever be created Duke of Edinburgh. That's WP:CRYSTAL. At the moment he's the Earl of Wessex and Forfar, per official palace statements.[1] He has since been specifically referred to as the Earl of Wessex and Forfar when information was published on his father's funeral arrangements,[2] and in statements made by charities of which he is either a patron or trustee, such as the Duke of Edinburgh's Awards and the Seafarer's Charity.[3][4] So the title has been in use since 2019-2020 and this is a clear case of WP:NAMECHANGES. Also, per MOS:IDENTITY a person's choice of name must also be considered and he has chosen to be known as the Earl of Wessex and Forfar, rather than the Earl of Wessex (just as his nephew William was known as the Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge for a day but that didn't prevent a page move). And regarding to the point that he's known simply as Prince Edward in the UK, no, he's not and that's because there's another Prince Edward, the Queen's cousin Prince Edward, Duke of Kent. Keivan.fTalk 19:02, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "A statement from The Earl of Wessex and Forfar". The Royal Family. 16 September 2022. Retrieved 17 September 2022.
  2. ^ "The Funeral of The Duke of Edinburgh". royal.uk. 4 December 2017. Archived from the original on 2 February 2022. Retrieved 11 February 2022.
  3. ^ "HRH The Earl of Wessex and Forfar KG GCVO". The Duke of Edinburgh's International Award. Archived from the original on 11 February 2022. Retrieved 11 February 2022.
  4. ^ "To our Merchant Navy… THANK YOU". The Seafarers' Charity. Archived from the original on 11 February 2022. Retrieved 11 February 2022.
  • Support Several court circulars, press releases, news reports, and members of the public have been using 'Earl of Wessex and Forfar' to refer to The Prince Edward since at least last year. Falls under WP:COMMONNAME. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HolaQuetzalcoatl (talk • contribs) 20:09, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per their statement here identifying them as such. cookie monster 755 20:49, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Per WP:NAMECHANGES, Sometimes the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. When this occurs, we give extra weight to independent, reliable English-language sources ("reliable sources") written after the name change. If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match. If, on the other hand, reliable sources written after the name change is announced continue to use the established name, Wikipedia should continue to do so as well, as described above in "Use commonly recognizable names". (Emphasis added on the word "independent".) It's been two and a half years since the Queen granted the title of Edward. Although court circulars and press releases have used "Earl of Wessex and Forfar", independent sources have overwhelmingly continued to refer to Edward as simply the "Earl of Wessex," including the BBC, The Mirror, The Independent, the New York Times, etc. I've got no problem referring to him as the "Earl of Wessex and Forfar" in the article text, but the article title should reflect what independent, reliable sources are calling him. (Same with Sophie, by the way, whose article I notice was also moved.) Aoi (青い) (talk) 22:57, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    These sources have called his mother "Queen Elizabeth" instead of "Queen Elizabeth II", incorrectly referred to Diana as "Princess Diana" for years, and insisted on referring to the wives of Edward's nephews as Kate Middleton (or Princess Kate!) and Meghan Markle (or Duchess Meghan!) instead of "Princess of Wales" and "Duchess of Sussex", despite the fact that none of these women ever used any of these names after their marriage (or accession to the throne in the case of Elizabeth) in public or private capacities. A person's choice of name matters. If he has chosen to be known by both his English and Scottish titles we're in no place to shove our own opinion on how he should be referred to as down his throat. Name changes happen and sources will pick up and follow gradually. The recent examples that I can think of are Elliot Page, previously known as Ellen Page, or William, Prince of Wales, known until last week as the Duke of Cambridge. Nobody questioned their change of name or title, and nobody should be questioning Edward's decision for a change in his titles. Keivan.fTalk 01:35, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I am not making any statement about whether the use of "Earl of Sussex" is technically correct or not. I am simply saying that per Wikipedia's naming conventions, article titles should reflect the WP:COMMONNAME used in independent, reliable sources. Aoi (青い) (talk) 02:32, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Also, this is less cut-and-dry than it may initially appear. The initial announcement of the Earl and Countess's new title said they would "use the title The Earl and Countess of Forfar when in Scotland." Entries in the Court Circular still often list the Earl's appearance as simply the "Earl of Wessex." From 16 September: This evening The King, accompanied by The Queen Consort, The Duke of York, The Earl of Wessex, accompanied by The Countess of Wessex, and The Princess Royal, accompanied by Vice Admiral Sir Tim Laurence.... From 15 September: The Earl and Countess of Wessex this morning visited the Central Library, St. Peter's Square, Manchester, and were received by His Majesty's Lord-Lieutenant of Greater Manchester (Mrs. Stephen Hawkins). From 14 September: The Coffin was followed by The King, The Prince of Wales, The Duke of Sussex, The Duke of York, The Earl of Wessex, The Princess Royal, Mr Peter Phillips, The Duke of Gloucester, The Earl of Snowdon and Vice Admiral Sir Tim Laurence. The Earl of Forfar title seems to be used in the Court Cicular only when the Earl is conducting an event that has relevance to Scotland, which is consistent with how the title was described when the Queen granted it to him. Every single speech listed on the Royal Family's official website by Edward is attributed to "The Earl of Wessex". And his own official website lists him as "The Earl of Wessex". Granted, perhaps his intent is to use both earldom titles going forward following the Queen's passing, but it's too early to say. Tldr, I dispute that "Earl of Wessex and Forfar" is the WP:COMMONNAME. Aoi (青い) (talk) 02:45, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:COMMONNAME essentially states that a name needs to be common and recognizable. I cannot see how adding Forfar to his title would suddenly make the subject unrecognizable. Not to mention that in the case of royalty, WP:NCROY has to be considered as well. He has been referred to by the Royal Family website as the Earl of Wessex and Forfar since at least last year, when the funeral of his father took place (1), and that funeral did not take place in Scotland. I had also thought that maybe the title is only reserved for using when he's in Scotland, but it appears that this is not the case. The order of the service published for his mother's funeral also uses the two titles in combination. With regards to the contradictions on the website, that is definitely an issue that they need to sort out themselves as they have done it in the past with other family members (see Princess Alexandra, The Honourable Lady Ogilvy#Honours and the note regarding the appropriate abbreviation for her as a Royal Knight of the Order of the Garter). In any case, the last up to date pieces of info that we have on him are his statement regarding his mother's death and how he has been mentioned in the funeral documents and it's apparent that he uses the English and Scottish titles together at the moment. I'll leave it to the community to decide with regards to the information on hand. Keivan.fTalk 04:15, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fast support The Order of Service for The Queen's state funeral lists him as "The Earl of Wessex and Forfar". [1] --Zimbabweed (talk) 23:00, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support In all official documents I've seen since early this year hes been referred to as the Earl of Wessex and Forfar. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 23:06, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Might I enquire as to what documents? Until the recent events surrounding the funeral, the court circular seems to only have used "and Forfar" when there was a connection to Scotland. More data points could be enlightening on the issue as I'm not even sure what his proper Style is, let alone trying to figure out what the wiki page title should be. Gecko G (talk) 04:01, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as formal title. 𓃦LunaEatsTuna (💬) 02:35, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - with the knowledge of the possibility, he'll eventually be appointed "Duke of Edinburgh", by the King. At which point, "Earl of Wessex and Forfar" will be used by (his son) James. GoodDay (talk) 04:22, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – The Order of Service for today's funeral lists him as the Earl of Wessex and Forfar. Here is the article. (The original PDF file is already mentioned above.) Vida0007 (talk) 04:36, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per User:Aoi. Not the WP:COMMONNAME used by independent sources. Tad Lincoln (talk) 23:51, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support – The use of both titles will be good, especially as Duke of Edinburgh would be WP:CRYSTAL, and as pointed out before the Order of Service for Her Majesty's funeral listed him as Earl of Wessex and Forfar. CIN I&II (talk) 14:37, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support using the title as his formal name. Presuming the Duke of Edinburgh would be WP:CRYSTAL, but I'll let you pass on that one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thy Reader (talk • contribs) 18:08, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. He's invariably known as the Earl of Wessex, not the Earl of Wessex and Forfar. Who calls him that? He was referred to as the Earl of Wessex in media coverage throughout the last week. After all, we don't call Prince William (or previously Charles) the Prince of Wales and Duke of Rothesay. WP:COMMONNAME is very clear. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:24, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • That is because the title of Prince of Wales is of higher rank than a ducal title, this is a case of two titles of equal rank.--Killuminator (talk) 20:03, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose With this precedent, someone would then think appropriate to make the royal dukes' article titles like Prince X, Duke of A, Earl of B and Baron C... Seriously, Earl of Wessex and Forfar is overkill and will never be used naturally. Anotherwikipedianuser (talk) 18:49, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This appears to be a commonly used title and the one that is used as of now. Векочел (talk) 19:00, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It might be instructive to see how we treat the issue of one person having multiple titles of the same rank on other articles. As a general rule, only the most senior of the titles is put in the article name. For earldoms we have these examples: 1, 2, 3 and 4. This is just a sample but it generally holds up even for extinct titles and titles of other ranks. --Killuminator (talk) 20:03, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • In most cases the person chooses one titled over another. That is not the case for Edward. And that was not the case for his nephew William. Upon Elizabeth II's death, he became Duke of Cornwall, which outranks Duke of Cambridge, but he chose to use the two titles together. The same happened to George V, who was for a while the Duke of Cornwall and York. So there is a precedent. Keivan.fTalk 06:20, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Was Prince William ever actually referred to as the 'Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge' in a formal context? I'm aware of a few articles on the 8th which stated he would be referred to as that, but as he was made Prince of Wales the following day I'm not sure he was. A.D.Hope (talk) 10:38, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I can attest that I have seen their official Twitter page stated 'Duke and Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge' for about a day. HolaQuetzalcoatl (talk) 15:17, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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