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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 2601:542:103:a1f0:90b2:8d74:37fb:4d2a (talk) at 03:27, 4 January 2023 (→Semi-protected edit request on 20 April 2022: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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RfC on the nationality of Al-Biruni

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A summary of the debate may be found at the bottom of the discussion.

Should the Muslim scientist Al-Biruni (973–1050) be described in the lead as "Khwarazmian" or "Kwarazmian Iranian" rather than just "Iranian" as is the case currently [1]? पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 08:30, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Yes. The current article says that Al-Biruni was "Iranian". This is ambiguous as "Iranian" is also the modern name for the inhabitants of Iran, too broad as Al-Biruni was more precisely Khwarazmian ("Chorasmian"), and just using "Iranian" has undue pan-Iranian nationalistic overtones. In effect, Al-Biruni was Khwarazmian ("Chorasmian"), an Iranic people ("Iranic" is often used to avoid the confusion with the modern "Iranian" nationality, as for Turkic vs Turkish) . A few sources do say that he was "Iranian", most of the time with the qualifier "Khwarazmian", but about the same amount of sources actually say that he was "Persian" (the historical term) or just "Chorasmian". Overall, I would say "Iranian" is an undue simplification, and would favour "Kwarizmian Iranian", as does the most recent source Stephen F. Dale (2018) "The Kwarezmian Iranian Al-Biruni",[1] as a compromise and the best description of his nationality/ethnicity in the lead, taking into account that "Persian" is probably a bit dated. To make a parallel, when we have a Sogdian ruler such as Divashtich, we don't simplify by saying he was "Iranian", we usually describe him as "Sogdian", first and foremost. What sources say:
3 sources for Chorasmian/ "Khwarezmian"
  • L. Massignon (1951) citing Al-Biruni himself who self-describes as "native Khwarezmian".[2]
  • Antonio Panaino (2021) "Choresmian scholar"[3]
  • Victor H. Mair (2012) "the Choresmian scholar and scientist, al-Biruni"[4]
2 sources for "native Khwarezmian language"
  • Strohmaier (2006) "his native Khwarezmian"[5]
  • A.L. Samian (157) "his native language was the Khwarizmian dialect"[6]
4 sources for "Iranian", including 3 with the qualifier "Khwarazmian":
  • Stephen F. Dale (2018) "The Kwarezmian Iranian Al-Biruni"[1]
  • C. E. Bosworth (1968) "The Iranian scholar al-Biruni", but he also says later in the same chapter "the Khwarazmian al-Biruni".[7]
  • Richard Frye (2000): lists "Al-Biruni, from Khwarazm" among the "The contribution of Iranians".[8]
  • D.J. Boilot "born of an Iranian family" [9]
4 sources for "Persian"
  • M. A. Saleem Khan (2001) "Persian by origin, and spoke the Khwarizmian dialect".[10]
  • H. U. Rahman (1995) "A Persian by birth".[11][12]
  • David C. Lindberg (1980) "A Persian by birth".[13]
  • J.L. Berggren "The Persian polymath"[14]
पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 08:31, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Khwarazmian should cover both his birthplace and language. For readability I'd go with "a scholar and polymath from Khwarazm ...". Also "Iranian" can be misconstrued as an ethnic claim, hence should not be in the lede per MOS:ETHNICITY. Apart from his birthplace, other claims about his ancestry aren't known to be true, as E. S. Kennedy explains: "About his ancestry and childhood nothing is known."[2] Wiqi(55) 21:47, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Khwarazmian Iranian: I would personally prefer 'Khwarazmian', but since there is no article for them simply as a people (or at least a well-written Khwarazm article) and they are quite unknown to the average reader, I'd go for 'Khwarazmian Iranian'. Al-Biruni is indeed notable for being Khwarazmian, as he has provided much of what we know about his native Khwarazmian heritage, history, culture and language. Also, omitting mention of al-Biruni's ethnicity due to a single source which goes against the vast majority of WP:RS is WP:UNDUE and not WP:NPOV. Anyways, the same source also says "His mother tongue was khwārazmain, an Iranian language". Islamica calls al-Biruni of "Persian extraction" yet the term is seemingly used as a synonym for Iranian throughout the work, as obvious non-Persian Iranian figures are also referred to as such, such as Kushyar and Abu Nasr Mansur. EI3 says that his "mother tongue was a Khwārazmian dialect of Persian", obviously also used as a synonym for Iranian. While Persian and Iranian are much less used as synonyms nowadays, it still seem still to occur to a certain degree. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:36, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • MOS:ETHNICITY applies to "Iranian" regardless of it being disputed or not. Also a search for "Khwarazmian Iranian" in GB/GS returned extremely few results. Unlike Khwarazmian/From Khwarazm, only some sources describe Biruni as Iranian, often not in the lede. In most sources Iranian is just a modern linguistic classification of the Khwarazmian language. Wiqi(55) 10:32, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Khwarazmian Iranian: With these exact hyperlinks. The comment by Wiqi about "unknown ethnicity" is disproven by Biruni's own statements that Khwarazmian language is his mother tongue, as well as the countless reliable sources in the article that mention him as ethnically Khwarazmian/Iranic. The main argument for "Persian" or "Iranian" is mostly that the average reader likely wouldn't know what country or people Khwarazmian refers to, so having some explanation (native Iranic people of Khwarazm region) would also help, if not in the lede then in the "Early Life" section. --Qahramani44 (talk) 00:48, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Summary. Thank you all. It looks like "Khwarazmian Iranian" is the preferred term per community consensus. @Wikaviani: are you OK to close this RfC? पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 19:37, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, you can close it. I edited the article accordingly. Best.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 21:25, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ a b Dale, Stephen F. (3 May 2018). Babur: Timurid Prince and Mughal Emperor, 1483–1530. Cambridge University Press. p. 142. ISBN 978-1-316-99637-9.
  2. ^ Massignon, L. (1951). "Al-Biruni et la valuer internationale de la science arabe"". Al-Bīrūnī Commemoration Volume A.H.362-A.H.1362. Iran Society. pp. 217–219. In a celebrated preface to the book of Drugs, Biruni says, "And if it is true that in all nations one likes to adorn oneself by using the language to which one has remained loyal, having become accustomed to using it with friends and companions according to need, I must judge for myself that in my native Khwarezmian, science has as much as chance of becoming perpetuated as a camel has of facing Kaaba.
  3. ^ Panaino, Antonio (27 October 2021). Erexsha'a death or self sacrifice (in Italian). Mimesis. p. 32. ISBN 978-88-575-8526-0.
  4. ^ Mair, Victor H.; Hoh, Erling (10 December 2012). The True History of Tea. Thames and Hudson Limited. p. 347. ISBN 978-0-500-77128-0.
  5. ^ Strohmaier 2006, p. 112
  6. ^ Samian, A.L. (31 July 1997). "Al-Biruni". In Selin, Helaine (ed.). Encyclopaedia of the History of Science, Technology, and Medicine in Non-Westen Cultures. Springer Science & Business Media. p. 157. ISBN 978-0-7923-4066-9. his native language was the Khwarizmian dialect
  7. ^ Bosworth, C. E. (1968). "The Political and Dynastic History of the Iranian World (A.D. 1000–1217)". In Boyle, J.A. (ed.). The Cambridge History of Iran: The Saljuq and Mongol Periods. Vol. Cambridge University Press. pp. 7–141. Page 7: "The Iranian scholar al-Biruni says that the Khwarazmian era began when the region was first settled and cultivated, this date being placed in the early 13th-century BC)" page 141 "the Khwarazmian al-Biruni'"
  8. ^ Frye, Richard Nelson (February 2000). The Golden Age of Persia. Phoenix Publishing, Incorporated. ISBN 978-0-7538-0944-0. The contribution of Iranians to Islamic mathematics is overwhelming. ..The name of Abu Raihan Al-Biruni, from Khwarazm, must be mentioned since he was one of the greatest scientists in World History
  9. ^ Boilot, D.J., Al-Biruni (Beruni), Abu'l Rayhan Muhammad b. Ahmad New Ed., vol. 1, pp. 1236–1238, He was born of an Iranian family in 362/973 (according to al-Ghadanfar, on 3 Dhu'l-Hididja/ 4 September – see E. Sachau, Chronology, xivxvi), in the suburb (birun) of Kath, capital of Khwarizm....was one of the greatest scholars of mediaeval Islam, and certainly the most original and profound. He was equally well versed in the mathematical, astronomic, physical and natural sciences and also distinguished himself as a geographer and historian, chronologist and linguist and as an impartial observer of customs and creeds. He is known as al-Ustdadh, 'the Master'. in Bearman, Bianquis & Bosworth 2007
  10. ^ Khan, M. A. Saleem (2001). Al-Biruni's Discovery of India: An Interpretative Study. iAcademicBooks. p. 11. ISBN 978-1-58868-139-3. It is generally accepted that he was Persian by origin, and spoke the Khwarizmian dialect
  11. ^ Rahman, H. U. (1995), A Chronology of Islamic History : 570 – 1000 CE, London: Mansell Publishing, p. 167, ISBN 1-897940-32-7, A Persian by birth, Biruni produced his writings in Arabic, though he knew, besides Persian, no less than four other languages.
  12. ^ * "Al-Bīrūnī | Persian scholar and scientist". Encyclopedia Britannica. Retrieved 6 July 2018.
  13. ^ Lindberg, David C. (15 March 1980). Science in the Middle Ages. University of Chicago Press. p. 18. ISBN 978-0-226-48233-0. A Persian by birth, a rationalist in disposition, this contemporary of Avicenna and Alhazen not only studied history, philosophy, and geography in depth, but wrote one of the most comprehensive Muslim astronomical treatises, the Qanun Al-Masu'di.
  14. ^ Berggren, J. L.; Borwein, Jonathan; Borwein, Peter (2014). Pi: A Source Book. Springer. p. 680. ISBN 978-1-4757-4217-6. The Persian polymath, al-Birüni, a younger contemporary of Abu'l-Wafa', calculated the perimeters of inscribed and ...
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 20 April 2022

Avicenna should be replaced by ibn Sina, since that is the actual name Hamdsain (talk) 16:23, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:54, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
did you mouse-over the link to Avicenna in the article?
oh, I forgot that Wikipedia is not a reliable source . 2601:542:103:A1F0:90B2:8D74:37FB:4D2A (talk) 03:27, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2022

I have a small edit in the info box Al-Biruni He had many professions, you didn't mention some of them So I will rewrite Al-Biruni's professions again : Philosopher, chemist, geographer, encyclopedist, mathematician, cartographer, astronomer, translator, anthropologist, physicist, astrologer, historian, Linguist, Indologist, writer, pharmacist and botanist

If you are wondering how true I am, I have a source , You can go to search ( البيروني ) On Wikipedia once you paste it And if you do not understand the words, you can translate it on Google and it will show you the same as what you wrote Good luck!Lamo jostar 2 (talk) 23:04, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect actual radius of Earth

The article says, "His calculated radius for the Earth of 3928.77 miles was 2% higher than the actual mean radius of 3847.80 miles." Yet in the article Earth radius (and elsewhere in Wikipedia) the actual mean radius of Earth reported is 3959 miles. None of the 21 "published values" given in a table converts (from km) to less than 3936 miles. Unfortunately I don't have access to the cited reference to examine. Nonetheless, the mean radius should be uniform across Wikipedia, and some clarification or attribution given when it is not. Additional reliable sources might also be explored. As we all know, factual conflict reduces the credibility of the encyclopedia. — βox73 (৳alk) 07:52, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Worse than that! Al-Biruni's (local) radius of curvature used the Abbasid Caliphate's cubit, so (12 803 337cubit)*(0.4825m/cubit)= 6 177 610m . This value is only 97% of the 6370km appropriate for Punjab latitude (ie, he was 3% low, not 2% high).
[the earlier Islamic legal cubit was 0.498m => 6 376 061m, but that was over 200 years out-of-date!]
Al-Biruni did not estimate his uncertainty, so the ±20% number has zero validity, pulled out of thin air along with "alter by about 1/6"
[1/6 = 17% ... but reference 55's author admits in print (pg 216) that he did not know Biruni's measurement method nor his sightline]
[mirage-type refraction effects would be an absolute angle error, not proportional to a measured value, so that author is an idiot]
So yes, someone needs to fix this paragraph ... but I don't see any "edit" links! - lightgrav- 2601:542:103:A1F0:90B2:8D74:37FB:4D2A (talk) 03:17, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 15 November 2022

change Astrolabe in his works to a better one. Shahpour Nosrati (talk) 11:42, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Actualcpscm (talk) 22:48, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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