Talk:Larry Sanger
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Proposed draft
Should we replace the current version with the proposed draft? QuackGuru (talk) 00:55, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
Extended content
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Option A (proposed draft)
Option B (current version)
Option C (new proposal)(place third option here) Comments on proposed draft
Several examples of the current issues: See current wording in this article: See news article: "Freed from Nupedia’s constraints, Wikipedia took off quickly. Yet to hear Sanger’s version of events, things started to go off the rails just months after it was launched."[1] See accurate content in proposed draft: See current wording in this article: See accurate content in proposed draft: See accurate content in proposed draft: See current wording in this article: See accurate content in proposed draft: See current wording in this article: See accurate content in proposed draft: See current wording in this article: See accurate content in proposed draft: See accurate content in proposed draft: I also added new content to the lede and body: One example of the new content in the lede: "He ended his participation in Wikipedia in 2002 because of a lack of quality control.[12]" This new content replaces "...but became increasingly disillusioned with the project and left it in 2002." One example of the new content in the body: "After a few failed attempts to assemble experts to review articles, he eventually left Wikipedia in January 2003.[18]" You may be thinking why I didn't revert the changes. I tried before. I was reverted by Bastun.[2][3][4] There are numerous more examples of problematic content. For example, on 19:06, 17 August 2019 content about Critics of child-porn allegation was added. But there are no "Critics" accusing Sanger and it is a blog website. The content fails verification and the source is unreliable. Another recent example: on 19:55, 17 August 2019, John M Wolfson added the co-founder debate to the lede. The previous month on 05:42, 28 June 2019, user Johnuniq stated: "There is no reason to mention Wales in the lead. This is an article about Sanger and what he did, and the lead should focus on that. Also, mentioning Wales introduces the founder drama, but the lead should not focus on that." On 05:46, 28 June 2019 user John M Wolfson agreed it should not be in the lede: "...there's no reason to bring it up in the lead...". There is also the problem with incoherent wording. See Larry Sanger#Nupedia and Wikipedia. This section disorganised and hard to follow. It also contains WP:SYN violations. For example, see "While such issues..." and see "Sanger responded to these trends...". Unsupported weasel words or misleading weasel words such as "accused" should be replaced with more neutral words. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch. See MOS:ACCUSED. One of the words to look out for is "accused". Numerous news articles were deleted and replaced with a book written by Andrew Lih. The entire book is not freely available to read online, while the news articles are freely available to read. I also noticed that there is the content cited to the book that fails verification. For example, see "At the Wizards of OS conference in September 2006, Sanger announced the launch of a new wiki-based encyclopedia called Citizendium—short for "citizens' compendium"—as a fork of Wikipedia.[54] " Sourced content should not be replaced with failed verification. Because anyone can edit any page, there are people who write skewed articles. Opaque or overgeneralised content in the lede is counterintuitive for our readers who may be unfamiliar with the subject. There is currently content in the lede as well as the body that is misleading or biased. I think it would be best to expunge the content not found any source. This is in accordance with core policies WP:V and WP:NOR, as well as WP:RS. It is best to restore the citations in the lede for this article, especially when cited content was replaced with unsourced biased content. See MOS:LEADCITE: "The lead must conform to verifiability, biographies of living persons, and other policies. The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and direct quotations, should be supported by an inline citation. Any statements about living persons that are challenged or likely to be challenged must have an inline citation every time they are mentioned, including within the lead." The current lede does not conform to Verifiability and other policies. Content likely to be challenged must have an inline citation, according to MOS:LEADCITE. This is not my rule. This is Wikipedia's consensus. Good articles contain citations in the lede such as Lily Cole[5] and Bomis.[6] It is better to eliminate guesswork and stick to verifiable content. This is best accomplished with inline citations in the lede for articles that have a history of problematic content. There is a lot to read for this proposal because there is a lot of problematic content. QuackGuru (talk) 00:55, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
Keep the discussion in one place@QuackGuru: I see you're discussing this on Randy Kryn's talk page in the section titled "Lede". Please keep all relevant comments together on this page. Thanks! YoPienso (talk) 22:21, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
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Time to shut this down
I'm going to collapse this unproductive discussion because QuackGuru is actively ignoring policies and input from other editors, including users Bastun, John M Wolfson, Horse Eye Jack, Dicklyon, Randy Kryn, and myself. YoPienso (talk) 21:38, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
- OK, I just collapsed it. QuackGuru's blanking of my comments on her/his talk page show their unwillingness to listen or collaborate, so we should just move on. YoPienso (talk) 21:50, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
Recent Sanger criticism of Wikipedia
https://larrysanger.org/2020/05/wikipedia-is-badly-biased/ Should this link be added to the article where it talks about his criticisms of the wiki??--1.152.111.77 (talk) 19:43, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
- I see no reason to add it unless its covered by reliable sources. We shouldn’t treat Sanger differently from any other semi-reliable blogger just because he is connected to the project. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 19:45, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
- This is mentioned based on a single Fox News source. A sentence or two seems fine. Anything more than that would need better, secondary sources. Grayfell (talk) 07:37, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- With due respect, i don't think it should be mentioned at all. To rephrase my original point, fox news is not a reliable source, and Larry Sanger is not as significant to the wikipedia project as they want people to think. Which means his comments are nothing more than yet another instance of Fox News pushing post-truth alternative facts, and they want to use Sanger's past connection to wikipedia to legitimize their conspiracy theories about left wing bias. Wikipedia should not contribute to legitimizing them further. If other sources find it his claims notable enough to debunk, or expose whatever ulterior motives he may have had for echoing pro trump talking points, then sure. Let it be covered. Otherwise, it's just not relevant. 46.97.170.78 (talk) 08:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
fox news is not a reliable source
"FOX News was determined by consensus to be generally reliable per WP:NEWSORG," per perennial sources. MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken (talk) 10:14, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- With due respect, i don't think it should be mentioned at all. To rephrase my original point, fox news is not a reliable source, and Larry Sanger is not as significant to the wikipedia project as they want people to think. Which means his comments are nothing more than yet another instance of Fox News pushing post-truth alternative facts, and they want to use Sanger's past connection to wikipedia to legitimize their conspiracy theories about left wing bias. Wikipedia should not contribute to legitimizing them further. If other sources find it his claims notable enough to debunk, or expose whatever ulterior motives he may have had for echoing pro trump talking points, then sure. Let it be covered. Otherwise, it's just not relevant. 46.97.170.78 (talk) 08:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- Not relevant for inclusion here. News at 10: "Sanger, self-proclaimed libertarian, rails against perceived liberalism. (Also requests more funding)." Remind me, is his latest project in favour of experts, or opposed to them? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 09:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- I believe Sanger is pro-expert, as long as that expert is himself. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 20:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- Looks like a section was added https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Larry_Sanger&type=revision&diff=958265951&oldid=958217744&diffmode=source ·addshore· talk to me! 18:25, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- Not relevant for inclusion here. News at 10: "Sanger, self-proclaimed libertarian, rails against perceived liberalism. (Also requests more funding)." Remind me, is his latest project in favour of experts, or opposed to them? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 09:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- Removed, pending more widespread coverage and/or consensus changing here. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 18:36, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- Reinstated, you don't have any consensus to remove (in fact it's pretty clearly in favor of inclusion here), maybe start an RfC if you feel that strongly against it. MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken (talk) 10:11, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- Removed. There's clearly no such consensus as you claim, and, per policy:
The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is upon those seeking to include disputed content
. ——Serial # 10:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC)- Indeed. When I removed this, there was one person asking should it be included, one person saying yes, and three saying no. Not seeing how you could have arrived at the conclusion that there was clear consensus for inclusion, by the evening of 29 May, MPUWT. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 12:34, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm coming to the conclusion there is objectively more support here to include than against, in which case the side against is only you and an IP. MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken (talk) 20:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- To be clear I support linking reliable sources which cover the blog post (obviously where WP:DUE etc etc etc), the topic as presented is whether or not to include the link to Sanger’s subpar blog which I strongly object to. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 20:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- Of course, I think we're all in agreement regarding that. MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken (talk) 21:30, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- To be clear I support linking reliable sources which cover the blog post (obviously where WP:DUE etc etc etc), the topic as presented is whether or not to include the link to Sanger’s subpar blog which I strongly object to. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 20:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm coming to the conclusion there is objectively more support here to include than against, in which case the side against is only you and an IP. MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken (talk) 20:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- Indeed. When I removed this, there was one person asking should it be included, one person saying yes, and three saying no. Not seeing how you could have arrived at the conclusion that there was clear consensus for inclusion, by the evening of 29 May, MPUWT. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 12:34, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- Removed. There's clearly no such consensus as you claim, and, per policy:
- Reinstated, you don't have any consensus to remove (in fact it's pretty clearly in favor of inclusion here), maybe start an RfC if you feel that strongly against it. MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken (talk) 10:11, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- Removed, pending more widespread coverage and/or consensus changing here. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 18:36, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- I think you clearly don't know how to count. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 23:30, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- And you don't know how to respond to the right person. MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken (talk) 12:59, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- We aren’t *all* in agreement but I think there is a general consensus. If we want to talk about changes to the text I would remove all the direct quotes and tighten up our summary a little bit. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 00:11, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- You're welcome to make the improvements you see fit. MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken (talk) 13:00, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- I think you clearly don't know how to count. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 23:30, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Greyfall, it should be included here. I don’t see why his essay would garner widespread coverage, Wikipedia isn’t usually a topic in media, but the coverage from one RS is enough for inclusion here IMO. petrarchan47คุก 20:39, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- I should've been more clear. I don't think it adds anything important to the article, and I don't think it should be include... but I don't think a single sentence is worth removing, either. It absolutely should not be expanded without much better sources, and it would benefit the article for this sentence to be trimmed to avoid becoming a WP:FART-collection. Grayfell (talk) 21:32, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Larry Sanger's criticisms of Wikipedia are not noteworthy. He's been bitter ever since he left (which was early on, before Jimmy Wales turned it into a huge success) and has had nothing but a string of failed endeavors ever since. All this, despite desperately clinging to the title of "co-founder" which is his only real claim to notoriety. His opinions should not be given undue weight. TempDog123 (talk) 05:26, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
Judging from the small Greek WP "community", he is 110% correct. If he is not notable, why has an article in WP?--Skylax30 (talk) 09:42, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Question of Neutrality
There are 2 examples of Wikipedia Knockoffs that have different political leans Rational Wiki and Conservapedia are on opposite sides of the political spectrum both thinking Wikipedia is too bias hence they felt the need to make those.
While one is more Christian aligned the other is more aligned with the Intersectional faith both mostly focus on politicized subjects or "their side of the argument"
We should be looking at it from a neutral perspective ignore weather its right or left bias and investigate if there is any bias.
I wouldn't call this a left right issue more an ideological one i recommend reading The ultracalvinist hypothesis: in perspective by Mencius Moldbug which covers the contemporary left in the Occident and the Puritan hypothesis
relevant but knowing what Larry Sanger thinks about this type of thing might help,
If Wikipedia is found to be bias should that not be taken as constructive criticism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.203.23 (talk) 01:26, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
- Calling someone "biased" is one of the least constructive criticisms possible, since it is equally applicable to everybody and everything and says nothing except "I disagree". And I don't think RationalWiki says Wikipedia is biased. They are pro-science and anti-crackpot, like Wikipedia, but their rules are not as strict. Conservapedia, on the other hand, is anti-science and pro-crackpot.
- Independent of that: how is your contribution connected to improving the article? --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:16, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- "..like Wikipedia,"LOL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:4570:A710:C99E:AFCB:8995:1DF3 (talk) 15:54, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
- As the saying goes, the fish doesn't know he's wet. 2601:642:C401:72D0:65BD:84FA:9538:B514 (talk) 20:22, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
- "..like Wikipedia,"LOL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:4570:A710:C99E:AFCB:8995:1DF3 (talk) 15:54, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
When did he swing totally into the conspiratorial American right?
Mostly irrelevant to the article itself
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I was curious about this guy years ago, and was intrigued by his attempts to counter Wikipedia's apparent influence with projects like Citizendium. Just a few days ago, I looked him up again, and his Twitter feed reads like something off of InfoWars. Has he always been this way? Is it some kind of hyper-contrarianism? It didn't seem like there were signs of this back when he had news articles written about him. 2601:1C0:4500:BFD0:C11D:E899:8C21:5BE3 (talk) 04:34, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Um... I cannot see any connection to improving the article in this paragraph. You know, improving the article? Purpose of Talk pages? WP:NOTFORUM? --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:58, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
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Semi-protected edit request on 7 July 2021
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add that he changed his mind on WikiLeaks - https://twitter.com/lsanger/status/1341483236493565954 185.143.144.166 (talk) 22:10, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:08, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
Photograph
The photo of Sanger is about sixteen years old. Is there a more recent one that we could use? — Mhawk10 (talk) 02:11, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Sanger falsely claimed...
...that COVID-19 vaccines are "not a vaccine". This statement is cited to Newsweek alone, is this an adequate source for such characterizations on a BLP? SmolBrane (talk) 16:01, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- Please clarify. Are you asking whether Sanger made the statement or whether it is false? Johnuniq (talk) 00:36, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm asking whether Newsweek is qualified to describe his statement as false. I see that Newsweek has "no consensus" status at the perennial reliable sources page. Mostly a technical inquiry for my sake, note I haven't made an edit; just wondering if Newsweek is a good enough source on its own for a qualification like this. SmolBrane (talk) 16:25, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Do you have any RS that contradict that such a statement by anyone is false, IOW that Sanger was right? If not, then Newsweek is making a factual and uncontroversial statement of fact and can be used. Sanger did indeed make a false statement, as he does in many other situations. He's become a fringe caricature, far removed from reality on many important issues. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:13, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, I was just wondering how questionable sources are treated when they are sole sources of seemingly conventional observations. SmolBrane (talk) 20:36, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- They are used on a case-by-case basis, and for uncontroversial statements of fact they are just as good as any other source. If he said that, then it's really a no brainer to say it's false. Any source with an ounce of credibility will recognize that it's an ignorant and ridiculously false statement, and considering some of the other stupid things Sanger believes, it's not surprising. Newsweek is good enough for this usage. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 14:52, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- So, COVID-19 vaccines provide immunity to COVID-19?
- If you are going to call Sanger ignorant/stupid and prone to making ridiculously false statements ... then this is what you have to assert. Comfortable denigrating the man on a falsehood? 2001:8003:70F5:2400:3CA1:B224:8640:8140 (talk) 19:43, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- They are used on a case-by-case basis, and for uncontroversial statements of fact they are just as good as any other source. If he said that, then it's really a no brainer to say it's false. Any source with an ounce of credibility will recognize that it's an ignorant and ridiculously false statement, and considering some of the other stupid things Sanger believes, it's not surprising. Newsweek is good enough for this usage. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 14:52, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, I was just wondering how questionable sources are treated when they are sole sources of seemingly conventional observations. SmolBrane (talk) 20:36, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Do you have any RS that contradict that such a statement by anyone is false, IOW that Sanger was right? If not, then Newsweek is making a factual and uncontroversial statement of fact and can be used. Sanger did indeed make a false statement, as he does in many other situations. He's become a fringe caricature, far removed from reality on many important issues. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:13, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm asking whether Newsweek is qualified to describe his statement as false. I see that Newsweek has "no consensus" status at the perennial reliable sources page. Mostly a technical inquiry for my sake, note I haven't made an edit; just wondering if Newsweek is a good enough source on its own for a qualification like this. SmolBrane (talk) 16:25, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- The issue that too often gets overlooked isn't WP:RS or WP:V but WP:PROPORTION (and WP:ONUS). Is every tweet that gets mentioned in the news (positively or negatively) appropriate for a biography? --Animalparty! (talk) 23:51, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Sanger Interviews on YouTube are considered unreliable sources?
I added this to the article: He further adds that since Wikipedia encourages the use of secondary sources instead of primary sources, Wikipedia is heavily censored by center-left-wing media, saying that, "You can’t cite the Daily Mail at all. You can’t cite Fox News on socio-political issues either. It’s banned. So what does that mean? It means that if a controversy does not appear in the mainstream center-Left media, then it’s not going to appear on Wikipedia."[1] Despite having a neutrality policy, he said that the viewpoint of Wikipedia articles represent the consensus viewpoints, and users are prohibited from adding counter-arguments, which would help create a more neutral article, to established views.[2] He claimed that Wikipedia can give a "reliably establishment point of view on pretty much everything" and "if only one version of the facts is allowed then that gives a huge incentive to wealthy and powerful people to seize control of things like Wikipedia in order to shore up their power. And they do that."[3]
It was removed on the basis that my sources were unreliable. The information shouldn't be removed, since I provided a video interview with Sanger that was uploaded onto YouTube. YouTube is generally considered unreliable, but an exception should be made in this situation. It's literally a video interview with Sanger. Timestamps are also provided in the reference tag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LilAhok (talk • contribs) 02:55, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- You gave no reason why an exception should be made. "It's an interview" is not a reason. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:50, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Sanger can't even be represented using his own words? Well done Wikipedia ... you are truly a modern marvel of mis/dis-information! 2001:8003:70F5:2400:3CA1:B224:8640:8140 (talk) 20:02, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
References
- ^ Freddie Sayers (July 14, 2021). "Wikipedia co-founder: I no longer trust the website I created". youtube.com (Podcast). UnHerd. Event occurs at 16:28. Retrieved May 25, 2022.
- ^ Freddie Sayers (July 14, 2021). [https:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0P4Cf0UCwU "Wikipedia co-founder: I no longer trust the website I created"]. youtube.com (Podcast). UnHerd. Event occurs at 8:30. Retrieved May 25, 2022.
{{cite podcast}}
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value (help) - ^ Cite error: The named reference
:3
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
Phunware
I am no longer a Phunware advisor, which was a one-year thing and by mutual agreement not renewed. --Larry Sanger (talk)— Preceding undated comment added 20:35, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
Experts
I don't understand this newly-added quote: "One thing that I would have done, could have done, and should have done right away would be to create a process whereby articles were approved by experts."
But then, it would have exactly the same "biases" he complains about: against lunatic charlatans and against wacky Republican fantasies. So, he does not seem very consistent. Maybe the quote is out of context? --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:57, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- Hmmm ... if articles were approved by experts then Wikipedia might qualify as a reliable source! 2001:8003:70F5:2400:3CA1:B224:8640:8140 (talk) 19:49, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
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