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July 17

Jurisdiction over interstate felony murder

State Street in downtown Bristol, Tennessee (left) and Bristol, Virginia (right)

If a felony murder occurs across state lines (i.e. the predicate felony is committed in one state, but the death occurs in another), which state has jurisdiction? Someone who's wrong on the internet (talk) 02:04, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

The law on this question is unsettled, according to this 1983 article. John M Baker (talk) 05:37, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Clarify, please. Are you thinking of someone who stands on one side of the pictured street and fatally shoots someone on the other side? Also, please clarify the country — do you mean the US or somewhere else? Someone told me of a case here in Australia several decades ago, in which this precise situation occurred, but I can't remember any details (even the states in question) and can't find it with a Google search. Nyttend (talk) 23:19, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm thinking of this case. Someone who's wrong on the internet (talk) 00:27, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Felony murder is an "indirect" murder. You're charged with it if e.g. you commit a bank robbery and one of your accomplices kills someone (or even, in more creative applications, if one of your accomplices is killed). --Lazar Taxon (talk) 01:58, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Then how was it decided that Casey White would be charged in Alabama and not Indiana? Was it a single coin toss or best of three? Someone who's wrong on the internet (talk) 00:25, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

There was a Simpsons episode which set up a case of a murder involving 5 different U.S. states at "5 corners" (which doesn't actually exist, though Four Corners does... AnonMoos (talk) 00:08, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

How many African International students stay or leave China ?

How many African International students stay and work in China after they finished their studies ? How many African International students return to Africa or move to a different country after they finished their schooling in China ? Please provide me with information or sources. 136.143.222.12 (talk) 06:36, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Rotation Day - 18th Century England

On 30th April 1783 James Woodforde wrote "About 1 o'clock took a ride to Mr Smiths at Mattishall and there dined and spent the Afternoon, it being his Rotation Day, with him, Mr and Mrs Bodham, Miss Bodham, a Miss Kitty Johnson, Niece of Mrs Bodham’s, Mr. and Mrs. Howes, and M' Du Quesne. - Mrs. Davy not there but at Dereham, on account of a little Miff between her and M' Smith - but what, we know not. We had for Dinner a Leg of lamb boiled, a Piece of roasted Beef, a baked plumb Pudding, some Crabbs, Tarts, Rasberry Creams, and hung Beef, grated", again on 15th July "I took a ride to Mattishall to Mr Smiths it being his Rotation Day… Mr & Mrs Howes not there which I think very rude, as they promised… but I apprehend they intend dropping the Rotations which… I am not sorry for, as Mrs Davy is… going to board at Mattishall"., and again on 12th November "About 1 o'clock took a ride to Mattishall and there dined and spent the Afternoon at Mr. Smith’s it being his Rotation, with him, Mr. and Mr. Rodham, Mrs. Davy, Nancy, Mr. Ashill, Mr. Du Quesne and Mr. Priest of Reepham. We had for Dinner some stuffed boiled Beef, 3 Chickens, 2 roasted, I boiled. a Piggs Face, a Currant Pudding, Syllabubs, Tartletts, Tarts, &c. &c. I did not get home this evening till 10 o'clock and a bitter cold ride we had home". I rather think I recall Woodforde going to other Rotations Days with other people too. So what was a Rotation Day? I felt sure I'd asked this before, but it seems not. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 22:42, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

The Rotarian from April 1928 explains the reference as "the idea of members of a social or business club as guests at their homes or places of business in rotation". It references one of Woodforde's diary entries from 13 January 1777: "It is a club meeting and it goes by the name of Rotation. I became a member of it to-day, and they all dine with me Monday next. Every Monday is the day". Warofdreams talk 23:40, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

@Warofdreams: Thank you - you know I said I felt sure I'd asked already? Reading your answer I feel sure someone had told me that already too!. Ain't memory odd? DuncanHill (talk) 23:49, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

See Lunar Society of Birmingham for something very similar. The "Lunaticks" met on the night of the full moon in each other's houses for food and then to show off the latest work they were doing in their various private laboratories. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 07:47, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I wonder if it's partly a pun on Rogation day (as well as the literal meaning). As a young choirboy I used to have to traipse around the streets (usually in heavy rain, as I remember) singing the Litany on these occasions. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 14:35, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Seems more than likely. Alansplodge (talk) 16:14, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

July 18

Credit card company questions.

1. I was recently the result of skimming in a state of Illinois food stamps card, so, and was worried about credit cards being skimmed. I'm with 3 credit card companies, and none allow the possibility to set a max of single-charge. So therefore, the maximum charge per swipe is the monthly limit. Some of my ccs have a monthly limit as high as $7000/month. Are all credit card companies like this? And is the reason they don't allow users to set a maximum swipe is because of arrogance or they never thought about it? Now, you can lower the monthly limit, but if you do that, the that hurts your credit score, especially if your credit utilization ratio falls below 30%, making this like a catch-22. Shaking-my-head.

2. When credit card companies are part of a bank, can they see how much is in your accounts? I'm with Chase bank and Chase credit card, Capital 1 bank and Capital 1 credit card. Obviously when you're on the phone about your debit card, and want to talk about your credit card, they switch to different phone numbers, making me think the credit card companies are essentially function like completely different companies. But when you 1st open the cc, are they not given how much are in your savings/checkings? Thanks. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 17:06, 18 July 2023 (UTC).

Auto industry question: fixing cars.

When you have like a broken flashlight because the battery is broken, you don't "fix" the battery, you replace it. So what is like this for car parts, which parts are to be fixed, and which are to be replaced? From car mechanics. I'll throw in some examples: engine, alternator, tranmission, torque converter, mufflers, etc. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 17:09, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't think the Catalytic Converter is too fixable. You can adjust the pipe connections, maybe run liquid through it to try to clean it, but if that doesn't work, there's not too much an auto mechanic can do... AnonMoos (talk) 18:05, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective) they don't make cars like they used to. I can remember when a VW (Bosch) generator, starter or distributor could be taken apart and fixed by the consumer. And the engine could be easily rebuilt with a $100 rebuild kit in one weekend. There is, however, a current "Right to repair" movement, even a proposed "national automotive right-to-repair commitment" and a proposed "Right to repair act". -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.54.99.98 (talk) 21:37, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

In olden times, cars like the Ford Model T came with instruction books on how to maintain and repair them, so you could do your own work. Or sometimes had to, as in this song from 1914.[1] <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 21:48, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

There's a guy in my area who has an entire business built around 3D fabricating parts for Teslas. He has zero employees because the machines do everything. Viriditas (talk) 23:15, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Most reversed U.S. Sup Ct decision by itself?

Has anything been reversed twice yet? Since 1940s, I'm guessing not. President FDR held the longest term and appointed a bunch of Democratic judges to the bench, and only in recent decades has it been 5-4 and recently 6-3 with conservative majority, and in recent weeks have reversed a few decisions. So I'm guessing nothing has been reversed twice so far, unless we go back to the 1800s? 170.76.231.162 (talk) 17:12, 18 July 2023 (UTC).

Supposedly Dred Scott is "the most-reversed decision in Supreme Court history" (a paraphrase of a sentence I once read), but I don't know the details... AnonMoos (talk) 18:01, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Anyway, we have List of overruled United States Supreme Court decisions... AnonMoos (talk) 18:08, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Dred Scott is not listed there, probably because it wasn't overturned by the SC itself but by constitutional amendments (13th/14th). Roentgenium111 (talk) 13:04, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, Dred Scott was never reversed by the Sup Ct, only by a new amendment. What I hear is, Dred Scott is the considered to be the worst Sup Ct decision in history. I suppose if Dobbs is reversed some day by a Democratic majority, we will find out if it is the 1st time reversed twice in nation's history. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 16:04, 20 July 2023 (UTC).

Found the quote in Slavery, Law, and Politics: The Dred Scott Case in Historical Perspective by Don E. Fehrenbacher (1980, p. 298): "Dred Scott v. Sanford has been called `the most frequently overturned decision in history'." There's no source given for the embedded quote; you would have to look at Fehrenbacher's unabridged book The Dred Scott Case: Its Significance in American Law and Politics (1978), which I don't have, for that. Here "overturned" refers both to subsequent constitutional amendments and subsequent court decisions... AnonMoos (talk) 02:06, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

The unabridged work is available on archive.org. The quotation appears on page 580. Fehrenbacher ascribes the quote to "Derrick A. Bell, Jr., ed., Race, Racism, and American Law (Boston, 1973), 21". That edition is not available on Archive.org. The quotation as it stands does not appear in the Second Edition, which was, however, totally re-written. DuncanHill (talk) 08:50, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Courtesy link - Dred Scott v. Sandford. DuncanHill (talk) 13:11, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

I think the OP is asking for a decision for which the reversal itself was later reversed, returning to the original ruling. A hypothetical example would be a future SC re-instating the federal right to abortion, overturning Dobbs which overturned Roe. Roentgenium111 (talk) 12:59, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Which is not impossible, given that (unless I'm confusing it with another case) Dobbs explicitly relies on an argument expressly forbidden by the Ninth Amendment. —Tamfang (talk) 14:22, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Courtesy links - Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization and Roe v. Wade. DuncanHill (talk) 21:13, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

There's maybe some wishful thinking towards a more expansive originalist reading of the 9th and maybe combined with Clarence Thomas' desire to revisit Slaughterhouse and re-invigorate Privileges or Immunities Clause to some kind of libertarian view of Unenumerated Rights, or to start down that path? There are the could-have-beens or might-bes with a different court composition, maybe a Charles Black 9th amendment? It's probably a very long way to striking down Dobbs based on current standing of the 9th. fiveby(zero) 16:44, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

References

Is Shakespeare or Dickens often referenced in law school or MBA school?

I been watching the TV series Suits (2011) about 2 lawyers, and they constantly reference quotes from plays and such. Is novelists like Shakespeare or Dickens constantly referenced in the curriculum? Or other authors? 170.76.231.162 (talk) 17:17, 18 July 2023 (UTC).

Well, a Shakespeare character said "Let's kill all the lawyers", while a Dickens character said "The law is a ass"... -- AnonMoos (talk) 17:59, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

"Often" and "constantly" are too subjective to answer, and doubt anyone tracks stats on that. But "at all", yes, of course two of the most-quoted writers in the Western canon, who did write about legal situations, have been mentioned to students in law school. For example: the search "charles dickens" site:hls.harvard.edu returns only three ghits but "shakespeare" site:hls.harvard.edu returns 46, one of which is an obituary of prof Alan Stone, and mentions One of his most popular courses, “Justice and Morality in the Plays of Shakespeare,” included a staged trial of Hamlet, sometimes with U.S. Supreme Court Justice Anthony M. Kennedy ’61 presiding.. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:45, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Not exactly what you are asking for, but the late William Nicholas Knight wrote extensively on Shakespeare and law (and presented some pretty interesting evidence on Shakespeare's connections with the Inns of Court, though he likely extrapolated beyond what his evidence proves). - Jmabel | Talk 00:15, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Treaty of Federation

Treaty of Federation says that the treaty was signed by 86 of Russia's 89 federal subjects. Which ones didn't sign? A cited statement observes that Chechnya and Tatarstan stayed away, but the other one isn't discussed. ru:Федеративный договор gives a list of signatories, but as far as I can tell, it's completely unsourced, so I can't simply go down the list and find the one that's missing. Nyttend (talk) 21:48, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm currently on a network where wayback machine is blocked, but this I think is the treaty itself. At least, that's what I think it is, using the English Google translation of the Russian Wikipedia page. All of the current links to the text of the treaty are coming up deadlinks for me right now. --Jayron32 12:15, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

This works for me: https://fd.rsfsr-rf.ru/ --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 02:18, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

July 19

What was the last major voyage of the Age of Exploration without a telescope on board?

Was it one of Henry Hudson's? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:00, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

• Sluiter, E. (1997). "The First Known Telescopes Carried to America, Asia and the Arctic, 1614–39". Journal for the History of Astronomy. 28 (22): 141–145.

I found that a hungry Henry Hudson traded a spyglass to a Native American in the voyage of 1610-11 so he probably had at least 2 telescopes. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:28, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Could you provide a link or cite? That would predate the first documented use in the Americas of the above article, pt:Diogo de Campos Moreno saying to pt:Jerônimo de Albuquerque Maranhão: "Sir, this is not the time to be looking through telescopes..." in 1614. See a claim on books that he did have a telescope, but elsewhere: Nowhere in the journal (nor in that of the 1610 voyage) is any reference made to a telescope.[2]. fiveby(zero) 16:30, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Maybe looking glass was a single lens or crystal ball or something then? https://www.ianchadwick.com/hudson/hudson_04.htm Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 11:21, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

A mirror. fiveby(zero) 13:01, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Ah I see. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:27, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, if 1608 is accurate for the first appearance, and if you define "major" as listed in the Age of Discovery article (and Australia is pretty major), it was probably Janszoon_voyage_of_1605–1606...70.67.193.176 (talk) 14:33, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Telescopes remained rare and expensive during the first half of the 17th century. They would have been of no use onboard a ship; even the slightest motion will make it impossible to fix one's sight. So if a telescope was carried onboard, it was for the purpose of delivery or use after debarkation.  --Lambiam 06:13, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Nautical spyglasses had a relatively broad field of view and limited magnification power compared to astronomical telescopes. They wouldn't have been much use for serious astronomy work, but they were very handy for scanning the horizon for indications of the presence of land, or of other ships. Wikipedia appears to have very little on nautical spyglasses. AnonMoos (talk) 09:20, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Trolling at ecumenical council

There was a story of a bishop at one of the early ecumenical councils introducing an absurd proposal just so another bishop would condemn it. Does anybody recall who it was? Lazar Taxon (talk) 21:41, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Banned user
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
There may be something in here [3], [4]. 2A00:23C6:2417:3101:39BB:6FE:C48E:841D (talk) 17:37, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

July 20

strike impact

Since the 2023 SAG-AFTRA strike coincided with the 2023 WGA strike, how would both of them have any direct impact on the Directors Guild of America?2603:7000:8641:810E:A525:7735:8D44:219E (talk) 22:02, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

I may be missing something here, but the DGA represents Directors, who are people that direct Actors in the performance of material written by Writers. If the Writers are refusing to write anything new, and the Actors are refusing to perform anything, the Directors have nothing to direct, so the Producers have no reason to pay them anything. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.140.169 (talk) 22:22, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

A common view is that the DGA settled with the producers too early and did not extract enough concessions. The perception is that directors are employed more consistently and longer in an industry where unemployment is commonplace below the star level. This helped create a greater gulf between the producers on one hand, and the screenwriters and actors on the other hand. And this strike is the result. Here is what the New York Times has to say about the strike. Cullen328 (talk) 07:19, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

July 21

Cases of extreme identity theft, like the victims Christine Collins and Irene Silverman?

Christine Collins was a woman whose son went missing. Police gave her a boy, saying he was her missing son. She took him in but stated with evidence the boy was not his son. She was committed to a mental hospital by the police. But the boy recanted and said he was indeed not the son of Collins.

Irene Silverman was a New York City wealthy socialite. She was murdered by the son of Sante Kimes and the latter, who had an elaborate plan to assume the identity of Silverman. The police caught them before the full ploy was realized.

Recently, Viktoria Nasyrova was convicted of trying to kill her befriended look-alike in a ploy to steal her identity.

I am wondering if there are other similar cases where a perpetrator steals and assumes the identity of a victim, after disappearing in one way or the other the latter. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 05:04, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Classsic cases are the Tichborne claimant and The Return of Martin Guerre. There are also royal pretenders, like Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck... AnonMoos (talk) 05:46, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

A good place to start is Category:Impostors. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:20, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

References

Thinker78 (talk) 05:04, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Anna Anderson who pretended to be Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna of Russia springs to mind. Alansplodge (talk) 15:20, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Pl. help match the (US) playwrights / monologue

I am working on a monologue stage show draft My Body No Choice which includes a list of 7 US playwrights plus one anonymous playwright. Pl. refer the table given in my draft My Body No Choice.

One monologue mentioned in this linked Guardian news report says ".. One woman, a survivor of childhood abuse, describes having an abortion on 4 July, interpreting the sound of independence day fireworks as a celebration of her autonomy: ..". I could not match this story with 7 playwright names or an anon and monologue descriptions in this Washington post news.

Pl. help match the monologue mentioned in the Guardian with (US) playwrights or monologues mentioned in the table or any other relevant news report.

Thanks-- Bookku (talk) 06:55, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I’m just guessing, but when you match the keywords from the two articles, "Battered Baby" by V (Eve Ensler) appears to be the match, as they both involve childhood abuse, whereas the others don’t. Viriditas (talk) 19:52, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@Bookku: I confirmed it’s "Battered Baby" by Eve Ensler. She published the entire essay in her book Reckoning (2023). It’s in Chapter Three ("Mother Hunger"), pp. 62-66. The description of the abortion on July 4 and the fireworks is on the last two pages. She notes it was originally commissioned as a monologue by Molly Smith at the Arena Stage in October 2022 for My Body, No Choice. Viriditas (talk) 22:08, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

After searching other related news I was wondering whether I will get answer for this soon enough. It's really good guessing and search on part of @Viriditas Many thanks. -- Bookku (talk) 03:10, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

July 22

English

How do l read other languages 41.116.118.132 (talk) 18:08, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

By studying them. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:25, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Anusaaraka. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:56, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Are you asking how to read Wikipedia articles in other languages? -- Avocado (talk) 14:06, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Was Atatürk responsible for the Greek genocide?

According to Mustafa Kemal Atatürk: The rise of Turkish nationalism saw the Ottoman Empire perpetrate genocides against its Greek, Armenian and Assyrian subjects; while not directly involved, Atatürk's role in their aftermath has been controversial." while according to Greek genocide: It was perpetrated by the government of the Ottoman Empire led by the Three Pashas and by the Government of the Grand National Assembly led by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and Atatürk is listed among the "Responsible parties" in {{Greek Genocide}}.

Do we have a good reference on the question to update these articles accordingly? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 19:13, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

The Armenian genocide took place in 1915-1917, and at that time Atatürk was not the ruler of Turkey, but a rising army general who was mostly fighting WW1 battles against Britain, Australia, and Russia. That doesn't necessarily totally absolve him, but it means that he did not have primary responsibility... AnonMoos (talk) 03:41, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed the focus of your question, but the same answer applies to that part of the Greek genocide which happened during WW1. There's a section on the Atatürk article. "Ottoman genocides (1913-1924) and Atatürk" which discusses such issues. AnonMoos (talk) 04:14, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi @AnonMoos. Yes, there's a section but it says the opposite of Greek genocide and that's the point of my question: was Atatürk responsible or not? Do we have reliables sources? How can we reconcile these different versions in different articles?

In particular, May 19 is celebrated as the Commemoration of Atatürk, Youth and Sports Day in Turkey but as the Pontian Greek Genocide Remembrance Day in Greece. In both cases, the day commemorates Mustafa Kemal's landing in Samsun on May 19, 1919, which is regarded as the beginning of the Turkish War of Independence and as Atatürk's birthday. (Please note that according to Greek sources, Atatürk was involved in the genocide before he became the ruler of Turkey in 1920.)

I'm surprised that we don't have more content on this massive discrepancy between the Greek and Turkish views. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 06:29, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

See also Samsun deportations: On May 19, 1919, Mustafa Kemal (later Atatürk) landed in Samsun, far away from the war zone of the Greco-Turkish War in western Anatolia. The arrival of the former together with members of the former Young Turks movement, many of whom were wanted for crimes committed during World War I, marked the final phase of the Greek genocide and the extermination campaign of the local Greek communities continued the following years. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 06:30, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

July 23

Sources on a multiple murder in Switzerland in May 1991

This is for a list article so it's not that important but my complete inability to find more than one source on this incident is confusing me. I'm trying to improve the list of massacres in Switzerland article and there's one incident that I can't find anything on other than one tangential mention in an article about a different shooting. The source is this on the Lugano District shooting, but at the end it mentions this: "In May, a 42-year-old businessman shot and killed all five members of his family before shooting himself in an Alpine chalet." I cannot find any other mentions of this.

The murder of 5 people in Switzerland where the only coverage I can find is more than a year later in an English publication on a different shooting? This seems like it would be in the headlines for a while even in America, given Switzerland's low rates of gun violence it seems shocking that I can find nothing. Did this even happen? If there was any coverage it was in German and French but I tried searching and other than this I've got nothing. Again, list article in a country with very little gun violence so it's not that pressing, but I'm quite curious. The one listed right after is attested in other sources PARAKANYAA (talk) 04:33, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Here's a contemporary news report on the incident (in French): [5] --Viennese Waltz 10:18, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Roots of Nordicism

Why exactly did Gobineau et al. – or rather their predecessors drawn on – originally associate Nordic physical traits such as blondness and blue eyes with superiority, considering particularly that, in historical reality, Nordic peoples had in fact been dominated by southerners (i.e., Romans), and the great ancient European civilizations had been Greece and Rome (and not, e.g., Scandinavia or Germany)? Hildeoc (talk) 12:43, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Was he blond himself? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:33, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Gobineau's writings were quickly praised by white supremacist, pro-slavery Americans like Josiah C. Nott and Henry Hotze, who translated his book into English. They omitted around 1,000 pages of the original book, including those parts that negatively described Americans as a racially mixed population. It's always fun to see racists justifying their views using the opinions of other racists who would have looked down on them as being racially inferior. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 18:04, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Baseball Bugs: Does that matter in this context? Hildeoc (talk) 19:05, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

It could be. If someone makes claims about superiority based on outward appearance it is likely that they base it on characteristics they share. Obviously this not universal as can easily be seen by looking at some of the hardly nordic looking major figures of the Nazi Party. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 20:06, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Probably part of it was that non-southern-Europeans wanted to distinguish themselves from southern Europeans (who were considered to be "swarthy", and perhaps on a slippery slope leading to non-whiteness), and Nordics were supposedly maximally distinct from southern Europeans. AnonMoos (talk) 19:37, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@AnonMoos: Okay, but then why would they actually see the need to perform such an intellectual perversion – i.e., elevate the Nordics to superior culture-bearers despite the ancient Greeks and Romans having been the true origins and multipliers of European culture and civilization for centuries? Hildeoc (talk) 20:59, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Trying to rationally figure out the "why" of racism is a fool's errand. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:07, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

They might have seen the (largely self-) claimed cultural superiority of the Romans in particular (who or whose intellectual heirs wrote most of the history books) as being exaggerated (and there is current scholastic argument that the Romans' supposed superiority was based on their looting and/or suppressing and/or talking down the cultures of their neighbors such as the Greeks, Celts and Dacians), and they likely placed high value on the (supposed) simple natural nobility of honourable northern peoples as opposed to the degenerate corruption that (arguably) emerged in the overcrowded cities of the south. Most people unconsciously wear spectacles tinted one colour or another. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.140.169 (talk) 00:16, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Romans actually held Greek culture in high esteem (Greek itself was an official language of large parts of the Empire) and absorbed, not annihilated, most of the cultures they encountered. It wasn't their fault if Celts almost didn't have an alphabet. --195.62.160.60 (talk) 06:52, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

"simple natural nobility of honourable northern peoples"? Hildeoc (talk) 17:09, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

various Celtic (or Celtic-adjacent) alphabets in use during the 7th-5th centuries BC

There were a number of alphabets (seen at right) which derived from Etruscan independently of Latin (which also derived its alphabet from Etruscan). Some of these languages are of disputed or unknown history, so how close they may have been to Celtic is debatable, but some like Lepontic language are clearly Celtic. It is possible or even likely that Futhark and other Germanic runic alphabets derived from these earlier Celtic alphabets, thus the Celts may have had an alphabet in wide use before the Germanic peoples. Gaulish was also apparently written in the Greek alphabet where there was contact with Greek speakers, such as near Massalia. Then there's the case of Ogham, in Ireland. Nearly all pre-Latin alphabets in Western Europe were replaced by some variation of the Latin alphabet, generally as part of the Christianization process. --Jayron32 14:24, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

The article section Nordicism#Background goes into this. There are some variations, but the basic idea is "Nordicists claimed that Nordics had formed upper tiers of ancient civilisations, even in the Mediterranean civilisations of antiquity, which had declined once this dominant race had been assimilated." --Amble (talk) 18:03, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

First Multi-POV Novel?

What was the first English-language novel to be published that was narrated not in an omniscient POV, nor a single third-person POV, but switching between multiple different close third-person points of view that each relate only what the current POV character is aware of? -- Avocado (talk) 14:14, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Many of the early English novels were epistolary, and if there was more than one letter-writer, necessarily multi-POV. Just looking at my shelves, there are "Pamela", "Humphrey Clinker", "Evelina", etc. Of course, the letters are in first-person... AnonMoos (talk) 19:26, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm specifically interested in multiple third-person POVs, not first-person, fwiw. -- Avocado (talk) 11:58, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Does The Canterbury Tales count? Staecker (talk) 12:58, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, first published in 1818, seems to fit the bill. --Viennese Waltz 13:20, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Isn't Frankenstein in first person? -- Avocado (talk) 16:06, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

It is, similar to Dracula, it is multiple first person POVs, switching between Victor and the Creature and Captain Walton. --Jayron32 16:52, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, definitely looking for third-person examples, not first-person. -- Avocado (talk) 18:54, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Canterbury Tales is more of a collection of short stories along with a framing narrative. It's also not really a novel; English language novels are generally taken to date from the early 18th century or so, Robinson Crusoe being the canonical "first" such novel, from 1719, though there are other contenders, see List of claimed first novels in English, some dating to several centuries earlier. That lists Le Morte d'Arthur as a contender for the first novel, and there are multiple third person POVs, but it's really not a novel in form; it's a collection of extant stories (Matter of Britain), which Mallory acted more as a collector and reframer than strictly as the author of. Mallory's work does shift between multiple third person POVs, (indeed, for much of the middle part of the book, Arthur is barely around at all, as we follow individual Knights on their various quests and stories) so perhaps if you consider that a novel, you've got a contender there. --Jayron32 14:05, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Aside from their being essentially collections of shorter tales, my vague recollection from reading Le Morte D'Arthur and the Canterbury Tales is that they're written in a very distant point of view that can't really be distinguished between third and omniscient because it doesn't relay any character's thoughts/feelings, only what they did and said (a bit like a film without a narrator). Hopping on Gutenberg to skim them seems to confirm that.

What I'm really trying to figure out is the earliest emergence of what eventually developed into the modern style of switching between multiple close third-person POVs from one chapter/scene to another. -- Avocado (talk) 16:14, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Akin to the style George R. R. Martin uses in A Song of Ice and Fire then? --Jayron32 16:50, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Er, I haven't read that. But the style I'm thinking of is basically the same for the vast majority of modern novels written in 3rd person with multiple POVs. Omniscient is pretty rare nowadays afaict. -- Avocado (talk) 18:49, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Update: just downloaded a copy from the library (isn't modern technology grand?) Yes, that'll do as an example of the style I'm thinking of! -- Avocado (talk) 18:58, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Charles Dickens's Chair

One of the books I am reading at the moment is Clarke, Tom (1939). My Lloyd George Diary. London: Methuen & Co Ltd.. It is Tom Clarke's memoir of his time editing The Daily News and the News Chronicle. On page 19 we read "Tom Curtis, the general manager... told me the actual chair that Dickens had used as editor of the Daily News in 1846 was lying in the storerooms... I suggested it should be carefully overhauled by an expert and that a simple brass plate should be put on it so that posterity might identify this historic bit of journalistic furniture. These things were eventually done and Dickens's chair had a place of honour in my room". Do we know what happened to the chair? Are there any pictures of it? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 22:54, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Here's[6] one donated to the Charles Dickens Museum by retiring managing director, Mr G. B. Crossfield, can't find a date for Crossfield. Here's[7] a claim of one from the collection of an A.H. Whittaker. fiveby(zero) 23:37, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I think George Bertram Crosfield (only one "s") was there to the very end of the News Chronicle. The Crosfields were Quaker soap manufacturers and intermarried with the Cadburys. DuncanHill (talk) 08:46, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Memorial donation

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Please note I'm only voicing my opinion, not using the reference desk as a crystal ball, nor am I asking for any type of advice. But since the tragedy of the Titan submersible implosion, I feel OceanGate should definitely make a $1,250,000 donation to the Titanic Historical Society. Why all that money? It's simple. I calculated the cost of the tickets at $250,000 five times. (There were five passengers aboard Titan (submersible) at the time of the tragedy.) $1,250,000 turned out to be the total. What's your opinion about that amount of money? (The THS still believes the wreckage is sacred ground that should be left in peace.)2603:7000:8641:810E:80FB:579C:558A:6873 (talk) 23:51, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

July 24

Pl. help confirm author of the quote and source, if different

Following is quote from the Guardian's this article by Afnan Khan. From previous paragraph it seems a quote of Pakistani professor Mubarak Ali; or at least so is also assumed by Pakistani journalist and diplomat Maleeha Lodhi in her this the Dawn article. There upon the opinion seems to have been cited in various WP articles.

The Pakistani establishment taught their children right from the beginning that this state was built on the basis of religion – that's why they don't have tolerance for other religions and want to wipe-out all of them. The logical conclusion of this line of thinking is a very narrow definition of who a real Pakistani and real Muslim is. Once minorities are out of the picture, they turn on other sects.

Following questions arise

1) Whose (above) opinion is? Professor Mubarak Ali's ? or Afnan Khan's own?

2) As such Professor Mubarak Ali's intro suggests he is quite likely to hold such opinions that's the likely reason another Pakistani journalist attributed the same to Mubarak Ali. If Afnan Khan is quoting from any of Urdu writings of Mubarak Ali identifying will be more difficult is understandable; but If it is Mubarak Ali's and from any of his English articles or books then please help identify the same.

Pl. help identify author of the above quote and source if that is different than Guardian

-- Bookku (talk) 07:10, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

HI Bookku, found on page 440 of The Vedic Core of Human History: And Truth Will Be the Savior, By M. K. Agarwal, where it is presented as a quote from either Gen Zia-ul-Haq or an editorial in the Dawn, not quite clear which as can't see page before...70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:16, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Apologies, just noticed how old the Guardian article is. Seems likely this book borrowed from the Guardian rather than the other way around. Will come back if find another answer. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Incivility and personal attack issues among academic authors ?

How do Universities and private publishers handle incivility and personal attack issues of otherwise high profile and experienced academic authors and speakers. (Just for clarity, here I am not discussing student behavior but faculty / professor behavior)

Any examples of any high profile cases and / or research papers? -- Bookku (talk) 14:20, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Can you clarify what you mean by incivility? What examples from universities or private publishers do you have in mind? In general, universities have established codes of ethics and/or codes of conduct for professionals, and have means of sanctioning such professionals if they fall astray of those codes. Here is an example of one that I found. You'll likely find similar policies at other institutions. If a professor at a University publicly berates, insults, or harasses another professor, I would expect there to be consequences, and the involvement of the human resources department. --Jayron32 16:47, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

What the usual "trump is hell" type of people think of JFK?

What the usual "trump is hell on earth" type of people think of JFK?

Do they usually like JFK or not?~~ 168.227.189.254 (talk) 19:21, 24 July 2023 (UTC)