Talk:LGBT

LGBTQIA+ is the updated term, LGBT is an obsolete term

• LGBT is an obsolete term from the 1980s, it has been long time ago substituted by the most accurate and inclusive term LGBTQIA+ See the definitions in the following universities:

LGBTQIA+ in Princeton: https://www.gsrc.princeton.edu/lgbtqia-101

LGBTQIA+ in South Dakota university: https://www.sdstate.edu/office-multicultural-affairs-accessibility/lgbtqia-basic-terms-and-definitions

LGBTQIA+ in the university of San Francisco: https://lgbt.ucsf.edu/education-training

https://lgbt.ucsf.edu/lgbtqia

Why this article has not been redirected to LGBTQIA+? and even worse why keep patching it with the additions keeping the article as it was in the 2010 and keeping the article as it the term is a mental illness?

Why the terms Queer, Asexuality, Intersexual have been kept out of the definition all this time?--Leglish (talk) 01:55, 21 April 2023 (UTC).

Could we vote to replace the LGBT article for the LGBTQIA+ article?

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=LGBTQIA%2B&oldid=1150969494

--Leglish (talk) 03:25, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

As this may span much more than just this article (since there are many derived sub-articles), it might be a discussion topic that should be raised on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies or maybe even a Wikipedia wide Request for Comments. Raladic (talk) 03:32, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

The simplest way would be to change the title of this and other LGBT+ pages, replacing LGBT by LGBT+. (The "+" sign in LGBT+ includes, among others, the Q, I, and A.) Oski (talk) 13:18, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Well, when the queer community established an acronym… it simply was a bad idea. With so many ‘new’ genders appearing randomly, maybe they could have chosen a simple word.

Anyway, we should just keep the original acronym, because people just know it well. Maybe we could just add a ‘+’ sign to ‘include’ other genders.

Because, if we start adding more and more letters, where will the acronym end? Josan07 ya (talk) 12:54, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

LGBTQIA2S+ is the mnemonic of the countless affirmative ways in which people choose to self-identify. WP continued use of LGBT is discriminatory and not inclusive.

LGBTQIA+ in Portland Art Museum: https://portlandartmuseum.org/learn/programs-tours/object-stories/powerful-self-lgbtqia2s-lives-today/

Timeline: Starbucks history of LGBTQIA2+ inclusion: https://stories.starbucks.com/stories/2022/starbucks-pride-a-long-legacy-of-lgbtq-inclusion/ dmode (talk) 06:12, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

At very least, LGBTQIA+ should appear bolded in the lead with an explanation, and the explanation of LGBTQ can be compressed into it. This article is basically several years out-of-date.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  10:47, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. There's plenty of references in this thread and the RM debate below, so it should be relatively straightforward to do, if someone has capacity at the moment? — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 12:18, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

'LGBTQIA+' is already bolded in section § Variants, and it is not the only one that is. Not everything can appear in the lead, and this particular topic probably has more alternate synonyms than any other topic I can think of. As for "out-of-date", a move request was just entertained a few weeks ago (that is to say, *after* the date of the OP in this very section) and another one is premature at this point. Mathglot (talk) 10:20, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 5 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. I'd like to preface this close by saying that this is not a vote. There is a clear numerical majority in support, however quite a few !votes in support have been deducted for various reasons.

Extended content

Supporters argued Google Trends usage, however opposers contested that Trends does not show usage in reliable sources (WP:COMMONNAME), just usage in general. An opposer argued that LGBT was actually more common on Trends, however that was shot down by the fact that Trends is language agnostic. It was also argued that Ngrams & Scholar showed support for LGBTQ, however that was rebutted by the fact that it was a small one and we should wait a bit more per WP:CRYSTAL.

Finally, I'd like to say 2 things: (a) nothing is set in stone, this can always be revisited, and (b) I have carefully looked over this RM and am unlikely to be persuaded. As such, I forfeit the requirement to discuss my close with me before listing at move review. Thank you, (closed by non-admin page mover) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 04:29, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

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LGBT → LGBTQ – This Google Trend comparison indicates a higher appearance of "LGBTQ" compared to "LGBT". I would say this shall be moved, no? Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 02:44, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Survey

• Support move to LGBTQ or I'd suggest the move to LGBTQ+ so it's explicitly inclusive of other identities of the wider LGBTQIA2S+ community. Per the latest ngrams raw 2019 LGBTQ has overtaken LGBT as of the latest data point(2019) with the trend showing an increase for LGBTQ and decrease of LGBT since especially 2016 onwards. - Raladic (talk) 05:41, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

• Previous requests suggesting this title can be found at /Archive 2#Requested move 14 February 2018 ("consensus not to move") and /Archive 3#Requested move 28 May 2022 ("not moved for now"). I closed one of the previous discussions but have no particular opinion about this request. Dekimasuよ! 06:26, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

I have to do my own research on this, but as an early comment: we should not be relying on Google Trends at all. It's a measure of what internet users are searching for, but it's not a measure of usage in sources (let alone reliable ones). The best evidence here will be collections of usage in the best available sources, and the most expedient evidence will be from Google Ngrams, hits in Google News, and other aggregated source numbers. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:24, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Google Trends also doesn't seem able to distinguish between "LGBTQ" and "LGBTQ+" (unless I am doing something wrong!) – but both versions of the acronym have their own adherents. My personal impression is that both variations are more widely used now than they were a few years ago, but I couldn't say whether either is now more common than LGBT either in general discourse or in reliable sources. (I also increasingly see LGBTQIA and LGBTQIA+ but suspect both are less common still). Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:31, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Gender studies, WikiProject LGBT studies, WikiProject Sexology and sexuality, and WikiProject Sociology have been notified of this discussion. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:28, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Is it possible to get counts based on Google News and Google Scholar? If so, I feel that those might be a better guide. --DanielRigal (talk) 18:22, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Support: Terms for sexual and gender minorities have evolved very rapidly in the last 60 years, so it's a little more awkward to rely on citations, as age will affect them more rapidly than events in current affairs for example. It was only when I was at university in the 1990s that the LGB Society became the LGBT Society. While ordinarily I would agree that Google News and Google Scholar would be simple to use as gauges, it is also worth ensuring those counts are split by year of publication.

I would suggest we are several years past the point that WP:COMMONNAME would justify changing LGBT to LGBTQ+, but any change here should simultaneously be applied to other articles such as the LGBT rights in (territory name) series. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 20:30, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

• Comment If this is moved will every single category be moved to match it? What about other articles on the topic at hand?★Trekker (talk) 21:36, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

  I would say yes; consistency is important (and part of the guideline at WP:AT). But, as I mentioned below just a moment so, that's something that bots can do for us relatively easily. OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 07:20, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Comment. As of March 2023, the AP Stylebook tends toward LGBTQ+: (twitter).

LGBTQ+ (adj.)

Acceptable in all references for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer and or questioning, plus other sexual and gender minorities. Fewer or additional letters can be used to be more inclusive or in quotations and names of organizations and events, such as LGBT or LGBTQIA. Use of LGBTQ+ is best used as a collective adjective: "Walters joined the LGBTQ+ business association." Avoid using LGBTQ+ to describe individuals, and don't default to LGBTQ+ if discussing a more specific population: "a bisexual advocacy group", "a transgender health program".

–RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 21:54, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Comment- There is a strong claim that this is the WP:COMMONNAME, but I think that issue of changing all articles with LGBT in the title might be a pretty big change to Wikipedia. Another reason why it might not be a good idea is that it adds complication that is not necessary: LGBT and LGBTQ+ really mean the same thing — one term is not really more inclusive than the other, it just lists out more identities under the LGBT umbrellas. However, I do think the common name argument is compelling enough on its own, but the consequence of changing all pages with that title, and presumably the content of them, is a pretty big reason not to undertake the task.

aaronneallucas (talk) 00:08, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

I think all the downstream changes of article and category names is not such a big deal — that's precisely the kind of task that bots and software are good at.

Unless there's a technical reason that it would be prohibitively disruptive to do, I'm not sure we should focus on the concomitant downstream changes but rather what's the right thing to do. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 07:18, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

On the technicalities of such a move, we recently moved sex reassignment surgery to gender-affirming surgery, which had a knock on effect on some related sub-articles and I think categories. It wasn't an issue then, and WP:C2D should allow us to do a speedy move of any categories that would be impacted by this move. I'm pretty sure there's a bot already set up that would do all of the hard work. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:56, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support LGBTQ+ per above, perhaps most accurate name.--Ortizesp (talk) 06:10, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
• Comment But LGBT is more common worldwide according to Google Trends. -Martin Tauchman (talk) 15:28, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not too familiar with how to customise Google Trends searches; is it possible to restrict the comparison to English-language searches and if that makes a difference? — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 16:51, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

  Google Trends is language agnostic. All that matters is what you type in as the terms. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:20, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

  That's my point. We don't want language agnostic in this case; we want to know about English-language usage. Looking at the maps showed Latin America being strongly in favour of LGBT rather than LGBTQ — I have heard before that queer doesn't work well as a term in many languages —  OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 19:30, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

  I see. It didn't occur to me that "LGBT" would be a non-English search term, but I'm sure it's possible. Either way, as I said above, Google Trends evidence is uncompelling. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:43, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

• This move request is going nowhere, at least wrt to any votes based on Google Trends, as all those votes must be entirely excluded from consideration. Google Trends is by definition an unreliable source since it represents search terms from any user (anonymous, to boot!) who wishes to use Google to search. Furthermore, even a very lopsided result in Google Trends *still* means nothing (other than the fact that people are searching for that term). If you want to make a change request, fine, but please read WP:MOVE and WP:AT and base your arguments on policy, such as how article titles are chosen, and not on irrelevant nonsense like Google Trends which counts for nothing. Mathglot (talk) 03:56, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

  To be fair, a reasonable amount of the discussion above has also been about policy and WP:AT — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 09:20, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Support LGBTQ: there are more Google Scholar results for LGBTQ than LGBT, and only a handful for LGBTQ+. And given that LGBTQ is a newer term than LGBT it stands to reason that the gap will continue to widen. I know this isn't a perfect solution either but it's at least a better representation of RS than Google Trends. WPscatter ^t/_c 06:32, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose According to both Ngrams and (Worldwide, not simply United States, as nom used) Google Trends, the "Q" variant is less commonly used. Wikipedia goes by WP:COMMONNAME guidelines. And, as pointed out in the previous discussion, if COMMONNAME was totally ignored in favor of inclusivity, there's the discussion of why it isn't LGBTQ+ or LGBT2Q+. It will just lead to more and more being tacked on and making things more confusing. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 16:09, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

  LGBTQ has overtaken LGBT on ngrams as of the latest data (which is 2019) if you look at the raw data (smoothing 0 -ngrams Raladic (talk) 17:55, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

  A tiny bit of time in which one has overtaken the other, is not sufficient in my opinion to make a real argument it should be moved. There's a distinct possibility that years down the line, it will be the quite obvious common name, but it's too soon to make such judgements. The only proof nom has offered is a Google Trends chart that was skewed only towards United States usage and ignored worldwide usage, and by that metric, it is too soon to move. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 18:28, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

  The trend line in the ngrams very clearly shows a stark increase for LGBTQ and decrease for LGBT past 2016, with no reason to expect a reversal, but also we work off the actual data, which it has overtaken it, even if it's a small difference, regardless of if we tried looking into the WP:CRYSTALBALL.

  Another case that LGBT is no longer the common name is that the United Nations, which represent most humans on the planet use LGBTQI+ to refer to the community - un.org Raladic (talk) 18:37, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support the inclusion of the Q and/or the plus (+) in the acronym. Not just because are more trendy/popular in the searches, but because of the subjects in the article. It's not just about four identities, it mentions many others. MikutoH (talk) 16:27, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
• Weak support for adding Q, with or without a plus. No need to methodically rename all the other articles and categories. That could be handled on a case by case basis. --DanielRigal (talk) 16:42, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. Wikipedia is a trailing indicator; we're not the first to adopt change at the bleeding edge, we are the last, and follow the reliable sources. The data does show a shift towards LGTBTQ, as the ngrams data link above indicates, but it's almost a dead heat. The claim that Scholar data shows a clear lead for LGBTQ doesn't hold up, although we seem to be in a transitional period heading in that direction. I expect there will be more clarity on this point in a couple of years, and a move request then will likely succeed (just a guess). See § Let's look at the data in the Discussion section. Mathglot (talk) 02:09, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

Let's look at the data

Will those making claims based on searches please show your work. (For starters, all claims based on Google Trends are invalid, so please don't show your work on those, they are irrelevant and no amount of detail will change that.) The claim based on ngrams is very narrowly accurate, and so is the trend line, but "past history is no guarantee of future performance" and the two values are extremely close, so it's doubtful that any conclusion can be drawn based on ngrams at this moment. It looks likely that if the trend continues, LGBTQ will demonstrate a clear lead over LGBT in a few years, but we don't have data to support that yet; time will tell. With respect to Google scholar, claims are made that there are "more.. results for LGBTQ than LGBT", but no data is shown and I cannot repeat those results; rather, I see a more nuanced shift towards LGBTQ in recent years (just as ngrams does) with no clear and overwhelming winner (yet). If we restrict Scholar results to the past five years (since 2017 to be exact) and to results which use only one term and not both of them, we have: 68,700 for LGBT and 58,400 for LGBTQ. Checking since 2019, the margin switches significantly in favor of LGBTQ, with 39,000 to 32,000 for LGBT. But if we limit to since 2022, the margin narrows again, to 17,400 for LGBTQ and 16,300 for LGBT. Additional tests should be done in books to see if they show the same pattern. My guess is that if we repeat these tests in two years, the gap should widen enough to say that LGBTQ is more common, but it seems like at this moment we're still in the transitional period and the data doesn't tell an incontrovertible story that one is significantly more common than the other. Mathglot (talk) 02:09, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wiki Education assignment: Research Process and Methodology - SU23 - Sect 200 - Thu

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 May 2023 and 10 August 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jc12016 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Jc12016 (talk) 17:09, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Holding place for data on acronyms

I don't want to reopen the recent RM debate — personally, despite preferring the move recommendation, I would prefer we don't reopen the discussion for at least 6 months.

But it feels sensible to have a spot on the Talk: page here to collate stats about use of the different acronyms, so that we can easily find references next time the topic does come up. Please feel free to add recent data here:

• Today (28 July 2023), YouGov published results of a survey of 969 “LGBT+ Britons” between 30 May and 17 June 2023. The largest group (29%) using LGBTQ+, 21% using LGBT , 13% using LGBTQ without the plus. [Refs: Tweet (with graph), summary page, detail PDF] — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 12:37, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Alternative terms - According to whom? Isn't it being non-neutral? WP:POV

Queer - According to whom do Many people have looked for a generic term to replace the numerous existing initialisms?

According to whom do Queer has many negative connotations to older people who remember the word as a taunt and insult, and such (negative) usage of the term continues?

According to whom do Many younger people also understand queer to be more politically charged than LGBT?

If they are referenced from an article, they should've been written in such a way that provides view of articles. The present form looks like the POV of author.

Also many other sections in alternative terms seem this way.

The variants section seems to be appearing with the views of the editor and don't appear to be neutral

Please note that this a polite submission and comments are invited on how editors can make this neutral and convey if the tag is a mistake Thewikizoomer (talk) 09:00, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't see a POV problem here. None of those statements are particularly controversial. Maybe the last sentence merits attribution but even that is a stretch. All of it is neutral and validly referenced. --DanielRigal (talk) 18:31, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Know

The discussion exemplifies the problems arising from a group of people inventing terminology that intersects with existing terminology but with different meanings intended. This sort of on-the-fly redefinition of language and resulting disagreements and confusion is bound to last for a very long time. The result will be loss of clarity. It's interesting that the particular model used by Wikipedia promotes inherent confusion, which would not be the approach taken by an actual encyclopaedia. 86.135.86.250 (talk) 22:51, 30 August 2023 (UTC)