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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 101.78.67.231 (talk) at 18:28, 26 September 2023 (→‎Deleted sourced content without adequate explanation: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by reviewer, closed by Vaticidalprophet talk 19:29, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Created by CJ-Moki (talk). Self-nominated at 01:40, 25 September 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Yaroslav Hunka; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

  • The article is detailed and referenced properly with no plagiarism issues. However, someone shared a link to the subject's blogpost (source) stating that "Hunka did not compare the men in his division to modern Jews. It was a biblical reference to the Israelites being cast away and separated unable to return to their homeland." I would like you to clarify this issue and if possible update the DYK on the basis of this info considering the ongoing controversy of the subject. Toadboy123 (talk) 06:23, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Toadboy123: Thank you for the reply. Would this work as an alternative:
  • ALT1: ... that Waffen-SS veteran Yaroslav Hunka compared men in his division to Jews, with allegedly similar histories of being diasporas unable to return home?
CJ-Moki (talk) 06:51, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
ALT1 Approved Toadboy123 (talk) 08:04, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The article cited as a secondary source states he compared his people to Jews, however, I believe this is an inaccurate synthesis on behalf of the article writers as Hunka himself used the phrase "tribe of Israel" (according to Google Translate, anyways) which can be interpreted to mean a different set of people than modern day Jews. So, a more accurate DYK nomination would simply be "Israelites" based off the primary source, even if this is slightly contradicted by the Forward article. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 19:39, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@HadesTTW: I believe that deviating from the Forward article in this fashion would constitute WP:OR. CJ-Moki (talk) 22:41, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In that case we might just have to remove the factoid altogether if we are not allowed to use a primary source and the article is inaccurate as per Wikipedia:Inaccuracy. I do wish we could just cite the blog directly but Wikipedia policy does discourage that. HadesTTW (he/him • talk)
This should be put on hold until the deletion discussion has concluded. cagliost (talk) 15:55, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - according to the image source (his personal blog), that crop is inaccurate; he's the guy standing in the center, not kneeling. — Knightoftheswords 02:01, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Broken English. The usage of "diasporas" is wrong, as men in Hunka's division are not a diaspora, and Jews are not a diaspora either. Namely, men in Hunka's divison can be members of a diaspora, such as the Ukrainian diaspora, but they don't constitute a diaspora as a set (diaspora attaches to the whole ethnicity / ethnoreligious group, so they can only be a subset of the relevant diaspora, not a diaspora in and of itself). Jews are a people and Jews in diaspora are the Jewish diaspora, and Jewish diaspora does not comprise all Jews, so "Jews" can't stand for "Jewish diaspora". As worded, it could also make it look as if the men in Hunka's division are "diaporas", but members of a group of individuals can not be "diaporas". (Diasporas are multiple instance of a diaspora, not multiple instances of members of a diaspora.) In terms of language usage, this hook is terrible. @Toadboy123: Hello, how should this be fixed now that you have approved the hook?—Alalch E. 16:14, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Alalch E. I tried my best to modify the hook. ALT2: ... that Waffen-SS veteran Yaroslav Hunka drew a comparison between the men in his division and Jews, suggesting that both peoples shared the common history of being dispersed and unable to return to their homelands? Would this be fine? Also pinging @CJ-Moki: - Toadboy123 (talk) 23:01, 03 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Toadboy123: I approve of this alt, it is neutral, interesting, and supported by the Forward source. My suggestions would be that the term "Waffen-SS" should be italicized and linked, and that the word "Jews" should be linked. CJ-Moki (talk) 00:50, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Toadboy123: Thanks a lot, that's fine.—Alalch E. 21:58, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Alalch E. and CJ-Moki: ALT2 should not run. It seems to make a claim unsupported by the source, which says merely that he compares the veterans of his unit, who were scattered across the world, to Jews—nothing about being ... unable to return. And regardless of whether that's supported by a primary source, it seems wrong to put this person's writing comparing Nazis to Jews on the main page. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 00:10, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So I'll suggest a straight hook even if it seems more suited for ITN:
Also aligns more duly with the possible move. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 00:17, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hameltion: That Rota resigned after inviting a former Nazi soldier was already widely reported upon and, in my view, is less likely to attract a reader's interest than the other hooks. I understand the concern that the hook might be offensive, but it doesn't say or insinuate in its own voice that Nazis are similar to Jews (something that, to be clear, would be indefensible to put in wikivoice). I propose this:
It is supported by the Jewish-run Forward source, and is interesting in my opinion. CJ-Moki (talk) 00:55, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@CJ-Moki: Suggest avoiding this line of hook altogether. (As a point of procedure, noting that the article currently says In 2011, he compared the Ukrainian diaspora to the Israelites, which as discussed above is not true to the RS.) Surely there are further interesting details to highlight. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 01:21, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hameltion: If it means anything, I just edited the article to reflect the reliable source. CJ-Moki (talk) 01:27, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
new reviewer needed to make sense of the above. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 00:56, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@CJ-Moki: Because this article has become a redirect since its original nomination, as well the various issues with deciding on a hook above, I believe the best course of action is to end the nomination. I'm sorry, and I wish you better luck with other DYK noms in the future. Johnson524 06:54, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Johnson524: Thank you for your condolence. CJ-Moki (talk) 06:56, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Based on the above, I had closed the nomination as rejected. Vaticidalprophet argued that it's still a valid nomination, though. We shall thus leave it open. Schwede66 21:51, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I said "the rejection that was made wasn't valid", not "it shouldn't have been rejected". I clarified that in the original message and I wish you'd asked before reopening -- I was making that note to inform you and the reviewer next time of the tricky middle ground that is "rejecting based on an article being restructured". Having said that, if you think there's a new hook to be made, feel free to keep it open for that. Vaticidalprophet 21:54, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Vaticidalprophet: Umm... is there any way for this nom to be re-closed? There doesn't seem to be much interest in continuing the DYK by those involved since the original article became a redirect. I wouldn't care, but this is one of the older nominations, and I would like to see it finally conclude. Cheers! Johnson524 16:10, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Deleted sourced content without adequate explanation

User:Daikido, with your recent 2 edits, you have deleted facts directly related to the bio of this person. This was not a cleansing. Please restore them, thanks. Jingiby (talk) 11:48, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The reason for these removals is unclear. Mhorg (talk) 12:46, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thirding this, I am asking Daikido to please self-revert. CJ-Moki (talk) 14:28, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You have been trying to wipe out all the mentions of the holocaust and nazi ties for a while now. 91.242.152.178 (talk) 15:23, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oh I'm sorry folks, I was basing my edits on Jongibys own edits trying just like you guys to remove kremlinist agenda driven editing. If thats top much to your eyes feel free to revert me, I would have reverted myself but I'm on mobile rn without access to a pc so it's hard Daikido (talk) 16:04, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is clear misinformation around this. In his bio it states that 1941-1943 were the happiest years of his live as if to imply it was because of joining the division. That's not true. According to his own bio it was because the Soviet Union had control over his village and had sent his aunt, uncle, and cousins away to Siberia. When the Germans arrived the Soviets retreated so for the first time at 16 he was free. He didn't enlist until 1943. Fyrefawx (talk) 19:29, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. I have removed this sentence again. It's not clear what this statement would have to do with the "biography" even if it weren't misrepresenting his statements. glman (talk) 20:37, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is not misrepresenting his statements. He said those were the happiest years of his life as the Germans had arrived, and he celebrated their arrival.
It is important as it shows the extent to which he had Nazi sympathies. 101.78.67.231 (talk) 18:28, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the third sentence of the article, "He emigrated to Canada after the conclusion of World War II," there is a link to the entry "Ratlines." There are no sources that claim Yaroslav Hunka used a ratline to come to Canada or that Canada was even a destination for a ratline. Philipophish (talk) 16:43, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Photos from the tribute in the Parliament

Are there public domain images of the tribute in Parliament?  I think that these would be of high interest. The website of the House of Commons is currently unavailable. TheAmerikaner (talk) 20:42, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Einsatzgrouppe affiliation

Any details of how this young Ukrainian patriot was inspired to join the Waffen SS just coinciding to the Babi Yar massacre ? All the formation of more than 2000 Ukrainian enthusiasts became executioners of the Jewish population because the German SD didn't had enough manpower for ethnic cleansing, and enlisted the local pro-nazzi and right extremists. 50.158.162.51 (talk) 21:09, 25 September 2023 And continued north of Lviev, when volunteered to help the local SVK, and German police in the documented polish massacre at Palikrowy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palikrowy_massacre

First line

Shouldn't he be labelled as a Ukrainian-Canadian instead of just Ukrainian? Emkut7 (talk) 21:17, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image identification

The text on the source page does not match the cropped part of the file: https://komb-a-ingwar.blogspot.com/2010/10/

Гайделяґер. Хлопці з мого села Урмань, Бережанського району. Я стою посередині. Клячать, зліва: Кіналь Михайло, поляк, що зжився з українськими хлопцями; після боїв під Бродами вступив до УПА й загинув у 1946 р. біля Бережан; Кулик Іван, загинув під Бродами; Каліщук Михайло, після Бродів загинув в УПА. Стоять, зліва: Фурдиґа Василь, після Бродів повернувся додому, згодом поїхав до Москви, де жив його брат, зголосився до Червоної армії, дослужився ранґи лейтенанта, воював проти японців; Ткачук Дмитро, служив у чоті польової жандармерії у Дивізії. Інші два з присілка й я їх добре не знав.

--Polarlys (talk) 21:35, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, really. Hunka claims to be standing in the middle (i.e. on the upper row), while the soldier sitting in the middle has been cropped from the photo. This is not Hunka. Jingiby (talk) 04:59, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 September 2023

Request to add a sentence in the first paragraph of the "House of Commons of Canada visit" section clarifying that Trudeau denied that he had a private meeting with Hunka. There appears to be some misinformation about that topic, and the current text does not address that.[1] Snuppy12345 (talk) 01:44, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Trudeau calls praise for Nazi-linked veteran 'deeply embarrassing'". BBC News. British Broadcasting Corporation. 25 September 2023. Retrieved 26 September 2023.

Protected edit request: Galician vs. Galizien and article parity

Throughout the article, the term Galizien is used in italics and without quotes to talk about Hunka's unit.

But the English name of the unit, as used in its own wikipedia article, is "14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician)" and whenever the term Galizien is used, it's always in quotes because it's the German name. Why is the German name being used, and if it must be used, shouldn't it be in quotes? SombraCollar (talk) 04:03, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This man was with the SS

Correct this entry. He fought with the Nazis. He was with the SS. 2601:600:8F00:9D60:1F22:122B:4826:3AB3 (talk) 05:58, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You guys got the wrong guy in the pic

CTV report with Hunka highlighted as the dude in the middle of the back row (1:17)

https://youtube.com/watch?si=CJ5ujJMViiYk9eGa&v=Wvf1ZtEmw9M&feature=youtu.be

The dude pictured on this page looks nothing like the man in parliament.ᗞᗴᖇᑭᗅᒪᗴᖇᎢ (talk) 07:09, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is already discussion about this problem above. Regards. Jingiby (talk) 10:22, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 September 2023 (2)

Members of the "Galicia Division" were interned after the end of the Second World War near Rimini, Italy. There were screened by the British, Americans, Canadians, and even the Soviets, with no evidence of wartime criminality uncovered. Later relocated to the UK they were kept working for several more years before being "civilianized," following which a number emigrated to other countries. Concerns expressed when veterans of this Division were finally granted permission to come to Canada, in 1950, were investigated by the High Commissioner of Canada to the United Kingdom. He dismissed these accusations as nothing more than "Communist propaganda."

Starting in the late 1970s the KGB successfully orchestrated a disinformation campaign, Operation Payback, deliberately stoking tensions between the Jewish and Ukrainian diasporas over the alleged presence of "thousands" of "Nazi war criminals" in Canada and the USA. These charges were thoroughly examined in 1984-1987 by the Commission of Inquiry on War Criminals headed by Mr Justice Jules Deschênes. He concluded that reports about "thousands of Nazi war criminals in Canada" were "grossly exaggerated" and noted how there was no evidence of wartime wrongdoing on the part of the veterans of the "Galicia Division." Want more information? Read the official report at https://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2014/bcp-pco/CP32-52-1986-1-eng.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1970:4000:80:5DAF:A774:DA6E:B0E3 (talk) 13:24, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Stop Feigning Ignorance

First paragraph. It was not later revealed. It was always known. It was also more than just affiliated. 108.179.18.26 (talk) 14:59, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why give Putin the PR win? We will have to lie through our teeth on this one. 177.41.205.136 (talk) 17:03, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Language in lead

The current prose in the lead is poor in form and ambiguous in content. I would suggest the following:

Yaroslav Hunka (Ukrainian: Ярослав Гунька; born c. 1925) is a Ukrainian-Canadian World War II veteran of the Waffen-SS. Born in Urman, then part of Poland, Hunka volunteered for service in the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division at the age of eighteen and fought on the Eastern Front. Hunka was one of thousands of Waffen-SS members who emigrated to Canada after the conclusion of the war.

In 2023, he was invited to the House of Commons of Canada by Speaker Anthony Rota. While attending, Hunka received a standing ovation from Members of Parliament and public recognition from both Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy for his wartime service and on-going support of Ukrainian independence. Subsequently, Hunka's service in the Waffen-SS become public knowledge, generating significant media coverage and criticism. Canadian government officials, including Rota, apologized for the incident, with Trudeau calling it "deeply embarrassing".

In addition to copy editing, this cleans up ambiguous weasel words, is more literal and inclusive of facts, and is easier to understand for general readership. Readers who wish to untangle the nature and political affiliations of Waffen-SS formations like the 14th can do so by following the links to relevant articles, where such material can be covered at length. Dates of service and the such are best covered in the infobox. 70.166.220.82 (talk) 17:14, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think generally this is good, but removing any mention of Waffen-SS' Nazi affiliation seems questionable. glman (talk) 18:20, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 September 2023 (3)

Change "Ukrainian World War II veteran of the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS" to "Ukrainian-Canadian World War II veteran who served in the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS" as he is a Canadian citizen.

Here's one source labeling him as such: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/yaroslav-hunka-poland-minister-extradite-1.6978266 Emkut7 (talk) 18:23, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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