Talk:2023–2024 Manipur violence

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 September 2023

Either in top section or in casualties and victim section add this.

This is about homes destroyed.

1,988 Meitei homes, 1,425 Kuki homes, 325 temples and 221 churches destroyed- https://www.indiatodayne.in/manipur/story/manipur-files-1988-meitei-homes-1425-kuki-homes-325-temples-and-221-churches-destroyed-569676-2023-06-02

The church and temple is already mentioned but details of homes destroyed is not mentioned. John Edgerlosy (talk) 05:04, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: This is official data (WP:PRIMARY). We need more corroboration. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:18, 16 September 2023 (UTC) Kautilya3 (talk) 10:18, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Latest Govt data on lives and property losses

In the first para, the data on lives and properties lost can be perhaps updated as Manipur Police held a press conference on Sep 15.

On September 15, 2003, Manipur Police held a press conference in which IK Muivah, IGP Operations announced that 175 people have lost their lives; 1,118 people have been injured and 32 people were reported missing since the violence broke out. He also stated that 5,132 cases of arson took place, in which 4,786 houses have been burnt and 386 religius structures - 254 churches and 132 templates -  have been vandalized.

https://indianexpress.com/article/north-east-india/manipur/manipur-violence-deaths-houses-burnt-police-8941007/

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/175-killed-4786-homes-set-ablaze-manipur-police-data-sheds-light-on-scale-of-conflict-article-103683991

https://thewire.in/government/manipur-death-toll-violence-missing-arms Lairencha (talk) 11:06, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Violence FIRST erupted in the Kuki dominated area, Churachandpur

During the violence on 3 May, residence and churches of the mostly Kuki Tribal population were attacked in the non-tribal areas. According to the police, many houses of the tribal population in Imphal were attacked and 500 occupants were displaced and had to take shelter in Lamphelpat. Around 1000 Meiteis affected by the violence also had to flee from the region and take shelter in Bishnupur.

This paragraph says that violence was first started by the Meiteis in Imphal which is absolutely false. It all started in Churachandpur after which the Meiteis had to flee for their lives leaving behind their burning houses and properties. After news of the violence in Churachandpur spread, Violence erupted in Imphal.

Violence was observed in Churachandpur, Kakching, Canchipur, Soibam Leikai, Tengnoupal, Langol, Kangpokpi and Moreh while mostly being concentrated in the Imphal Valley during which several houses, places of worship and other properties were burnt and ... Violence was observed in Churachandpur, Kakching, Canchipur, Soibam Leikai, Tengnoupal, Langol,

It was first and foremost observed in CHURACHANDPUR and it was started right after the rally. Please state this first to be more transparent.

This prompted protests, mostly by Kuki student groups, which were met with violence and by early May, it had escalated into all-out violence. In the state capital, Imphal, Meitei mobs began targeting Kuki homes and attacked Kuki people who tried to flee the city for the hills, where they control much of the land. Kuki villages were also burned to the ground by Meitei militias numbering in their hundreds, sometimes thousands. (The Guardian)

It all started on May 3 when a tribal solidarity march organised by tribal civil society bodies in Churachandpur turned violent. The purported cause for the clashes appears to be the dominant and politically stronger Meitei community’s demand for ST status. (Outlook)

-- Gy9$y (talk) 05:04, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

How the violence started is mired in confusion because there were very few news reporters in the area. Nothing can be stated with confidence without analysing all the available sources. We cannot make definitive statements based on wordings here and there. Please note that Sangai Express, an Imphal-based newspaper, which had reporters/correspondents in all the districts published this under the Moirang section:

It is reported that the properties were torched for launching a counter agitation against the Solidarity March of ATSUM.... Later, a large number of people from Churachandpur side stormed towards Bangla and Torbung along Tiddim Road and destroyed several shops.

The Indian Express reported later that two people were killed in Kangvai between 2 and 3 pm. These are the first killings as far as we know.

Please provide WP:full citations for all sources you cite, and place quoted text in "talkquote" blocks just like I have done above. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:21, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

It is reported that the properties were torched for launching a counter agitation against the Solidarity March of ATSUM.... Later, a large number of people from Churachandpur side stormed towards Bangla and Torbung along Tiddim Road and destroyed several shops.

First line... counter allegations were launched by Meiteis. Please read carefully. So who torced the properties first?

2nd line ...a large number of people from Churachandpur..these are the kukis who came from churachandpur and destroyed shops in Torbung bangla.

Two dead bodies.. not mentioned specifically from which community.

Kindly refer the news articles I mentioned in the previous reply.

There are many versions of the violence. Please read them carefully and not stick to just your preferred news articles. Gy9$y (talk) 12:22, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a debating shop or social media. You need to be clear and specific about what claims you are making and what changes you are requesting.

The claim you made in the title of this section is contradicted by the ground report from Sangai Express. The Imphal Free Press, which also filed a ground report from the area, agreed: There were no reports of any untoward incident till 1 pm. It was later learnt that some forest beat offices were set fire to in Churachandpur. They were not incidents of communal violence. The communal violence occurred at the villages of Kangvai, Torbung and later Bangla, which are about 7-10 km north of Churachandpur. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:18, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Please refer this article.. latest from Sangai Express and kindly make the changes.

https://www.thesangaiexpress.com/Encyc/2023/9/24/By-Our-Staff-ReporterIMPHAL-Sep-23-Churachandpur-district-the-epicentre-of-the-violent-conflict-between-M.html

This is a report after months of research. Gy9$y (talk) 05:52, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

WP:NEWSORG are not considered reliable sources for "research", but only for "news", i.e., for reporting informatioin that they see, hear and observe. I will read it, but I don't expect it to give much WP:WEIGHT. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:24, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

I have now rewritten the initial riots section, which took me also "months of research". Most of the national and international media outlets just got their 3-May information from PTI and ANI newsfeeds from Imphal. This report published in The Hindu is typical. The lead image and the embedded ANI video (published at 3:17 pm on Twitter) represent the Kangvai village (visible within the video), but they were mislabelled as "Churachandpur". As per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, pretty much all the reports filed from Imphal in that time period should be discounted for inaccuracy (could be misinformation or disinformation, which is rampant in this conflict). -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:52, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

I ran into this interesting tidbit:

The police told PTI that during the march in the Torbung area of Churachandpur district, an armed mob allegedly attacked those belonging to the Meitei community. This led to retaliatory attacks and the situation turned volatile across the state.

So, misinformation wasn't accidental or erroneous. It was actively generated by the state police itself! The PTI faithfully issued this misinformation for the whole country.

It is clear that it is misinformation because there was no march in Torbung at all. It was entirely within the Churachandpur town, as described by three separate local newspapers: Imphal Free Press, Sangai Express and EastMojo.

Secondly, ANI published a video at 3:17 pm (linked from The Hindu story), showing the violence starting at Kangvai. (India Today published testimony claiming that this happened around 2:30 pm, corroborated by EastMojo journalist[1]) The video also shows the mob accompanied by police who apparently arrived in two separate vans, and we can also see a police officer arrive on a motor cycle. The mob was completely non-plussed, and continued their vandalism unhindered and undisturbed.

It was only after the distress calls from Kangvai went out that the Kuki groups came down from Churachandpur, as per India Today testimony. The police must have known all this, since they later revealed that two dead bodies were "discovered" at Kangvai. But they chose to paint a wrong picture calling it the "march". This also explains why almost all journalists even today believe that the violence started "during" the march/rally. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 02:56, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Initial riots section

@Kautilya3

"a counter-agitation in the surrounding valley areas (Moirang subdivision), where houses were torched by Meitei groups...

"These events caused a large number of Kuki-Zo people from Churachandpur side to rush to the clash site and participate in the clashes, including the burning of the Bangla village in Churachandpur district."

-The source cited makes no mention of these. In fact, it mentions the opposite: "Several houses, shops and vehicles have been torched at Torbung, Bangla, Kangvai and Phougakchao Ikhai situated along the adjoining areas of Churachandpur and Bishnupur districts. It is reported that the properties were torched for launching a counter agitation against the Solidarity March of ATSUM."

Also, your other arguments for your synthesis (there's no other way of putting it) are extremely weak.

-The ANI video timestamp shows 7:47pm. Where is your source that says it happened at 3.17pm?

-We can't use testimonies here.

-We can't use Chongloi's and K.K.Suan's articles, the same way we can't use Pramot Singh's articles, if any. Tms369 (talk) 16:42, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

It looks like I got the time of the video wrong. But the other two sources have 2:30 pm recorded.

I will address the "Meitei groups" issue later.

The source cited has this line:

Later, a large number of people from Churachandpur side stormed towards Bangla and Torbung along Tiddim Road and destroyed several shops.

Can you explain what you mean by "it mentions the opposite"? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:56, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

I am referring to the arsonists.

Several houses, shops and vehicles have been torched at Torbung, Bangla, Kangvai and Phougakchao Ikhai situated along the adjoining areas of Churachandpur and Bishnupur districts. It is reported that the properties were torched for launching a counter agitation against the Solidarity March of ATSUM.'

The only group explicitly mentioned in the article to have torched houses were those supporting ATSUM, i.e. groups from the Kuki-zo community. Yet it has been attributed to the Meitei group. This is a glaring mistake.

Tms369 (talk) 05:26, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

The agitators overpowered the locals and began attacking the Forest office at Phougakchao Ikhai before they were dispersed by the police who fired rounds of tear gas shells and resorted to blank firing. Reportedly, agitators coming from Churachandpur side also shot some rounds in retaliation and set on fire at least six houses and vehicles including a van, Maruti Alto, Honda Activa and two heavy vehicles (JCB) at Phougakchao Ikhai.

The meitei groups seem to have been credited for organising the counter-blockade. They also participated in the stand-off which resulted in stone-pelting between the two groups. But the arsonists are pointed out as "Churachandpur side" or supporters of ATSUM.

I therefore suggest improvement of the lines:

"Reports were received of a counter-blockade at Torbung near the Bishnupur–Churachandpur district border, and a counter-agitation in the surrounding valley areas (Moirang subdivision), where houses were torched by Meitei groups. Two dead bodies were discovered in the Kangvai village and tyres were burnt at the base of the Anglo-Kuki War Memorial gate at Leisang as an apparent provocation.

After the reportedly peaceful rally in the Churachandpur town in which 100,000 people participated, as the rallyists from the Torbung–Kangvai area were returning to their homes, they faced the "counter-blockade" by the Meitei groups. This resulted in stone-throwing and arson of vehicles and properties. The Kangvai village in the Bishnupur district was burnt down. These events caused a large number of Kuki-Zo people from Churachandpur side to rush to the clash site and participate in the clashes, including the burning of the Bangla village in Churachandpur district."''

I suggest the removal of the first paragraph since the mention of counter-agitation is made redundant by the second paragraph. My suggestion would be something along the line of:

"After the reportedly peaceful rally in the Churachandpur town in which 100,000 people participated, as the rallyists from the adjoining areas were returning to their homes, they faced a "counter-blockade" which had been organised by the Meitei groups in support of their ST demand. This resulted in stone-throwing which later escalated to vehicles and properties being targeted. Tyres had also burnt at the base of the Anglo-Kuki War Memorial gate at Leisang by unknown miscreants. These events caused a large number of Kuki-Zo people from Churachandpur side to rush to the clash site and participate in the clashes, which resulted in several houses, shops and vehicles being torched at Torbung, Bangla, Kangvai and Phougakchao Ikhai situated along the adjoining areas of Churachandpur and Bishnupur districts." "'' Tms369 (talk) 06:25, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

As I said I will address the "Meitei groups" issue later. For now, we are looking at The Sangai Express newsreport, Moirang section. It says properties were torched for "counter agitation". You claim this means "the opposite" of Meitei groups? What exactly does that mean? Who is the opposite? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:24, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

"properties were torched for launching a counter agitation" . It clearly means the opposite side of the Meitei groups, i.e. the Kuki zo groups.

You are free to put the "meitei groups" when you address the issue. Right now, there is nothing to back it up. It should be removed. Tms369 (talk) 09:19, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Please explain your logic. How does counter agitation against the Solidarity March of ATSUM mean the "opposite side of the Meitei groups"? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:01, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

It is reported that the properties were torched for launching a counter agitation against the Solidarity March of ATSUM.

The properties were torched in retaliation of the counter agitation. It was hence kuki-zo groups burning the properties, not the meitei groups. So, the opposite of what is presented in this article is true. What is your logic and justification for this? Tms369 (talk) 12:46, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

My understanding of the properties were torched for launching a counter agitation against the Solidarity March of ATSUM is that they were torched for the sake of launching a counter agitation. If they wanted to convey your meaning, they would have said "in retaliation to" or "in response to", " in opposition to" or some such thing. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:03, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

What kind of a blockade "launches" with the burning of houses?

Reports about a clash between people who had imposed a counter-blockade at Torbung and those returning from the rally started doing the rounds at Torbung.The stand-off that initially started with pelting stones soon escalated with vehicles and properties being targeted. Violence and arson rapidly engulfed the neighbouring Kangvai area as people were seen leaving their homes and running into an open field. With people rushing towards the clash site, it soon turned to arson.

There was an intense confrontation between the supporters of ST demand for Meetei/Meitei and the rallyists and they pelted stones, used slingshots against each other in the evening. Later, a large number of people from Churachandpur side stormed towards Bangla and Torbung along Tiddim Road and destroyed several shops. The agitators overpowered the locals and began attacking the Forest office at Phougakchao Ikhai before they were dispersed by the police who fired rounds of tear gas shells and resorted to blank firing. Reportedly, agitators coming from Churachandpur side also shot some rounds in retaliation and set on fire at least six houses and vehicles including a van, Maruti Alto, Honda Activa and two heavy vehicles (JCB) at Phougakchao Ikhai.

It explicitly states that there was initially a counter-blockade, followed by a stone-pelting standoff. Arson came later, after the stone peltings, when a "large number of people from Churachandpur side" rushed towards the clash site and overpowered the locals. What part of the article makes you think burning of houses came first? Tms369 (talk) 06:35, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Seriously, this is from a Churachandpur correspondent:

Reports about a clash between people who had imposed a counter-blockade at Torbung and those returning from the rally started doing the rounds at Torbung.The stand-off that initially started with pelting stones soon escalated with vehicles and properties being targeted.

It clearly states that Torbung, a meitei village, first saw the escalation of the stone peltings to vehicles and properties being targeted. The Moirang reporter goes into more details. So again, I ask you, what is your justification for saying meiteis started the house burnings? Tms369 (talk) 08:06, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Kangvai is a Kuki village. The burning of houses (preceded by vandalism and looting) was carried out by counter agitation activists (not by "counter blockade" activists, who are known to be Meitei Leepun). According to The Wire, the counter agitators were "held up" at Kwakta till the 2pm timeframe (no explanation available) and then allowed to move forward to Kangvai and Torbung. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:17, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Please address my perceeding question first along with the statement from the Churachandpur correspondent. It states that the targeting of properties first took place at Torbung, a meitei village. We can discuss Kuki-authored The Wire commentaries later. Tms369 (talk) 08:52, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

The Churachandpur correspondent wrote what they knew and the Moirang correspondent wrote what they knew. Neither of them is necessarily sacrosanct. The Churachandpur version tells us about the standoff near Torbung, where the district border is, and then Kangvai getting engulfed in violence and arson. Kangvai is about 1 km to the north. Nobody said that it was the site of the "standoff". The burning of Kangvai is an independent event, unrelated to the standoff. Two people were apparently already killed in Kangvai. People had left their homes and gathered in a field, as per the Churachandpur correspondent.

I am afraid you are trying to apply your own WP:OR with half-baked knowledge. You have been imagining Kangvai to be a "Meitei village" that was burnt by Kukis! You need to take time off and go read the sources more thoroughly. And you also need to read the so-called "Kuki-authored" soures. Wikipedia' is not going to WP:CENSOR them. If you want to contest the reliability of any source, take it to WP:RSN. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:09, 27 September 2023 (UTC) Kautilya3 (talk) 10:09, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

The targeting of Kangvai houses is mentioned later, only after Torbung was first targeted - the stand-off (at Torbung) that initially started with pelting stones soon escalated with vehicles and properties being targeted.. The site of the initial violence and arson is pointed out to be Torbung by both Churachandpur and Moirang correspondents. This is the source you have used in your edit. There is no need for me to go to WP:RSN.

I have also not claimed that Kangvai is a meitei village. I have also not claimed that Kuki houses weren't targeted in retaliation. Please refrain from resorting to personal attacks and justify your edit objectively. Tms369 (talk) 11:23, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't notice that you had switched the discussion to Torbung. But why? It was Kangvai, "where houses were torched by Meitei groups" according to the present text, which you are contesting. And Kangvai is a Kuki village. You said the reality was "the opposite" of the present text, which doesn't make sense because Kukis can't be expected to set fire to their own village.

The sequence in the Moirang section of The Sangai Express article is

1. Properties were torched for counter agitation. (Doesn't specify the locations, but Kangvai was listed already)
2. Clash happened between the two sides. (No location specified, but we can imagine the district border)
3. "Later", a large number of people from Churachandpur side stormed towards Bangla (Churachandpur district) and Torbung (Bishnupur district).
4. These "agitators" overpowered the locals and reached Phugakchao (which is beyond Kangvai) and attacked the forest office.

The Churachandpur section gives a different sequence:

1. Fire at the Ango-Kuki memorial gate.
2. Clash between the two sides. (Again we presume the district border)
3. Arson "rapidly engulfed" Kangvai. (This could be seen from a distance, as far as Bangla, at least)
4. [Churachandpur] people rushed to the clash site and turned to arson.

In both the cases, Kangvai arson/torching precedes the Churachandpur people rushing to the site. The other differences are basically due to what knowledge was available on their side of the border.

The EastMojo reporter reports arson "towards Bishnupur" (e.g., Kangvai) at 2:30pm,[2] even before the fire at Anglo-Kuki memorial gate became known in Churachandpur. He only came to know of large-scale arson (certainly Bangla and possibly Torbung) around 6 pm.

I am compiling other sources mentioning Kangvai. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:38, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Several houses, shops and vehicles have been torched at Torbung, Bangla, Kangvai and Phougakchao Ikhai situated along the adjoining areas of Churachandpur and Bishnupur districts. It is reported that the properties were torched for launching a counter agitation against the Solidarity March of ATSUM.

The above is the lead paragraph of the moirang correspondent. I, kindly, suggest you re-read the article with the concept of news articles having lead paragraphs in mind. Your whole justification seems to be based around this misinterpretation.

There was an intense confrontation between the supporters of ST demand for Meetei/Meitei and the rallyists and they pelted stones, used slingshots against each other in the evening. Later, a large number of people from Churachandpur side stormed towards Bangla and Torbung along Tiddim Road and destroyed several shops.

This and the paragraphs the follow describes what actually transpired.

This reporting is corroborated by the churachandpur reporter:

Reports about a clash between people who had imposed a counter-blockade at Torbung and those returning from the rally started doing the rounds at Torbung. The stand-off that initially started with pelting stones soon escalated with vehicles and properties being targeted.

Both reports makes it obvious:

Clash at Torbung with stone-peltings by both groups, followed by, Properties being targetted at the clash site after a "large group of people from Churachandpur side" arrived.

The Churachandpur correspondent also reported that the there was a fire at the foot of 'Anglo-Kuki War' gate at Leisang village by miscreants before the clash. But they are as yet unidentified. Tms369 (talk) 04:36, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

The EastMojo reporter does not name Kangvai. He says there was violence which erupted at the border area at around 2.30pm. With "forest beat office being burnt down", "gunshots" and "tear gas shells". The moirang correspondent credits "a large number of people from Churachandpur side" for these events:

Later, a large number of people from Churachandpur side stormed towards Bangla and Torbung along Tiddim Road and destroyed several shops. The agitators overpowered the locals and began attacking the Forest office at Phougakchao Ikhai before they were dispersed by the police who fired rounds of tear gas shells and resorted to blank firing. Reportedly, agitators coming from Churachandpur side also shot some rounds in retaliation and set on fire at least six houses and vehicles

Like I said, I am not denying Kangvai was targetted later. But it does not precede all of these events. Tms369 (talk) 04:49, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand why you are reproducing text from Sangai Express again. I have read it thoroughly and summarised its contents in the 8 numbered bullet points above.If you disagree with those points, you need to state what your disagreement is.

I know very well that the coverage is quite unsatisfactory. But it is the only local newspaper that covered the situation at the border. So, we have to make the best of it. I am posting below various testimonials, which clearly corroborate the Moirang reporter's 4 points.

The East Mojo was absolutely clear that the phone calls at 2:30 (the time is the important bit here) were on the Bishnupur side. So, not in the Churachandpur district. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 01:06, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

References

Testimonials for Kangvai

• K. K. Suan, The Indian Express, 5 May (op. ed.)

The immediate spark for the violence was provided by the retaliatory destruction of the Anglo-Kuki War Memorial Gate in Leisang and razing of Vaiphei houses in Kangvai village by Meitei mobs following the beating up of a Meitei driver...

• India Today, 8 May, testimonial

"They only moved back only after Kukis from neighbouring villages and towns came to confront them. The initial violence was in Kangvai village. Police and commandos remained mute spectators and sided with them as they went about ransacking and destroying houses. Over 30 people have been injured," says Kelvin. According to the Kuki outfit member, the Meitei mobs returned again at 8pm and burnt houses in Kangvai, a village bordering the valley.

See the ANI video embedded in [The Hindu, 4 May]

• Leon Chongloi, The Wire, 27 May ("analysis")

On May 3, while a peaceful protest was underway at the Kuki-majority Churachandpur town, news had reached the hill areas that the Anglo-Kuki Centenary Gate at Leisang-Monglenphai was set on fire by unidentified Meitei miscreants. According to eyewitness accounts, many Meitei volunteers who were held up at Kakwa [Kwakta] areas started moving towards Torbung and Kangvai areas and began torching Kuki houses. The first victim of that mob attack was Haopu Kipgen from Torbung Village; he was bludgeoned to death. The first casualty with torching of houses, therefore, was a Kuki.

• The Telegraph, 29 May

“The violence we have seen since May 3 is primarily because of a conspiracy. Meitei volunteers led the first assault as they began torching Kuki villages in Kangvai,” a senior Kuki official in the Union finance ministry said.

• K. K. Suan interview in The Diplomat, 12 June

These protest rallies were peaceful. Yet they were met with counter-blockades by various Meitei civil society organizations in various parts of the valley. Meitei miscreants burned down the Anglo-Kuki War (1917-19) Centenary Memorial Gate at Leisang village and beat up Kuki boys returning from a protest rally. Such incidents escalated into mob fighting. As the Meitei mobs burned down some Vaiphei-speaking houses in Kangvai village later, the ethnopolitical conflict spread like wildfire and transformed large parts of the state into killing fields.

• India Today NE, 26 June

A Moirang resident who appeared to be a member of the Arambaitenggol posted a post thanking the group soon after the arson of Churachandpur's Kangvai and Torbung village near Moirang on May 3rd, 2023. (Most reporters are confused about the district affiliations of these villages.)

• The Indian Express, 26 July

Things began to turn ugly around 2.15 pm that day after a tyre was seen burning along the plaque of the Kuki War memorial gate near Torbung, kilometers ahead of Churachandpur. Around the same time, police found two bodies in Kangvai village, a kilometre away from Torbung. Following this, massive crowds began building up on the Torbung-Kangwai stretch of the Imphal-Churachandpur highway.

(The clashes were happening at the south of Torbung, where the border is. They didn't extend to Kangvai)

• The Indian Express, 26 July

Between 3 pm and 3.30 pm, police reported burning of houses in Torbung and Kangvai belonging to both communities. Around 3.30 pm, some churches in the largely Meitei district of Bishnupur were reported to have been burnt down. Around 5.30 pm, a clash between Meitei and Kuki people was reported in the areas between Bishnupur and Churachandpur.

• The Caravan, 31 July

When they [the Kuki protesters] heard about attempted arson at a nearby memorial commemorating the Anglo-Kuki War of 1917–19, many attendees gathered at the spot. Others clashed with Meitei counter-protesters, who had been mobilised by Meetei Leepun, another militia that has cultivated close ties with the government, in the villages of Kangvai and Torbung. What initially began as stone-pelting soon escalated to the burning of houses, cars and businesses.

Interestingly, a Frontline article came up with a testimonial, which puts the Kuki arson later than the Kangvai arson:

Rajen Huirem (37) recollected that around 3.30 pm on May 3, 10-20 houses of Meiteis in Torbung village in Bishnupur district were burnt down by a mob.

Finally, you can listen to this very intelligent Meitei lady, who carefully noted down all the times involved.

I remember seeing the messages being circulated.

The messages were shared in Kuki language.

The message read, "Meiteis are burning our houses, and firing as well. Are you waiting for us to die? Come out immediately!"

It was around 3 at noon but before 4pm.

All this is a truly overwhelming corroboration for the Moirang correspondent's narrative. The violence was initiated by Meitei as an organised effort. TheANI video shows exactly how it started, along with police cooperation. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 01:35, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

This is awesome! Great work. Chaipau (talk) 02:00, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

The ANI video shows Kangvai homes being stoned, but the video is published at 7.47pm. So basically, out of 11 sources you yourself listed, only 3 seem to be supporting that "Meitei groups targetting Kuki-Zo homes in Kangvai" started the conflict:- the article from K.K. Suan, and the two testimonials from a Kuki resident in India Today and a "senior Kuki official in the Union Finance Ministry" in The Telegraph. And all 3 of them state the opposite of what both the Churachandpur and Moirang correspondents reported.

Here are the other sources supporting their reports:

A. Hussain, India Today

Violence erupted during the rally in the Torbung area of Churachandpur.

D.A. Sadokpam, The Wire

Though the rallies were held in all hill districts of Manipur, trouble started in the Torbung area near Churachandpur. The armed mob burnt down Meitei homes, who were in minority in that area, during the May 3 tribal solidarity march.

E-PAO, Chronicle News Service

Sources in Churachandpur district said that the rally ended peacefully at the peace ground. As the participants started to return home, some of the protestors found three unidentified miscreants in a white coloured Bolero torching the Anglo-Kuki War Memorial gate. People nearby gathered and put off the fire. In the meantime, unconfirmed reports of three youths of Churachandpur being beaten elsewhere came and it triggered the mob. Large number of protestors gathered again and marched towards Kangvai. They vandalised and torched several houses in Torbung and Kangvai area and also assaulted the residents... An other source said that large number of protestors came from Churachandpur town towards Torbung and Kangvai in the afternoon while vandalising and burning houses along the way.

B. Nepram, B. W. Schuchert, USIP

The violence began that same day, when reports surfaced that the Anglo-Kuki War Memorial Gate had been burnt down. This led Kukis to burn several villages inhabited by Meitei communities in Churachanpur, which in turn prompted retaliation by the Meitei

So what led Kuki groups to target meitei properties was the report of the Anglo-Kuki war memorial Gate being burnt down. This is pretty much written-in-stone after considering the fact-finding team's report given below.

Report by fact-finding team, The Wire:

Probing the two communities’ views on why the violence began, the report says that according to the Kukis, there was a “conscious attempt” to trigger violence by Meitei chauvinist groups, who they said torched the Anglo-Kuki War memorial at Churachandpur.

Unsurprisingly, torching of Kuki-zo Kangvai homes by Meitei groups features nowhere when reporting the cause.

All you have in support of that synthesised theory is the K.K.Suan article and the two testimonials. You are free to put this theory in your edit but credit these sources, not the presently used The Sangai Express article. At present it only highlights an inability to interpret a lead paragraph. Tms369 (talk) 09:06, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Dear sir, there are literally thousands of sources that have reproduced the Imphal narrative of how the violence started. Most of them even think that the violence started during the protest rally in Churachandpur, not after. They think so because the police headquarters in Imphal told them so. Even the ANI video was published, not to tell us the truth but to promote the narrative that the violence started in Churachandpur Town. We are saved from this propaganda only because there were three local newspapers that told us precisely where the protest rally was. So there is no need to rehash this propaganda all over again. We are talking about a country that ranks among the bottom 10% of the world for press freedom. (Knowledgeable journalists have told me that the newspapers require at least three sources to publish narratives of violent incidents, with one of them being the police. So no facts get published unless the police corroborate it.)

The Kukis do not have a newspaper of their own. So, good news sources have consulted responsible Kuki sources and experts to get behind the propaganda. India Today did this as early as 4 May. Both the Kuki and Meitei narratives are covered there. We can see that Meitei narrative was already propagandistic, e.g. "Kuki insurgents holding guns took part in the solidarity march", which is not corroborated by any of the reporters that covered the rally. The Meitei narrative was not based on knowledge, but social media misinformation.

Dhiren Sadokpam's article in The Wire is labelled as "Opinion". So it is not subject to editorial review. I think the author is a responsible writer. He isImphal-based and doesn't seem to understand the complexity of Kangvai, which is an almost entirely Kuki village, geographically in the Bishnupur district, surrounded by Meitei communities on all sides except the foothills. My text is attributing the attack on Kangvai to Meitei (around 2pm), and that on Torbung Bangla to Kukis (around 6pm).If Kangvai is a Kuki island in the midst of Meitei communities, Torbung Bangla is a Meitei island in the midst of Kuki communities. Sadokpam doesn't seem to know the difference. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:23, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

So you have no source backing up your claim other than K.K. Suan's article, and yet have dismissed all of the credible reporting, including the findings of the fact-finding team, as propaganda?

Kuki insurgents holding guns took part in the solidarity march

If you think this quote is propaganda, how do you explain this video? May be they are militants under SoO, may be they aren't, it isn't confirmed in the article. Either way they are kuki-zo militants armed with automatic weapons participating in a procession.

They also used these weapon against the police, as reported in The Sangai Express' article: Reportedly, agitators coming from Churachandpur side also shot some rounds in retaliation and set on fire at least six houses and vehicles.

Your edit it seems is nothing more than OR based on a couple of testimonials. You have absolutely nothing to justify this edit. Unless you present to the community an actual source, your edit is not NPOV and above all, not verifiable. Tms369 (talk) 13:12, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

K. K. Suan is an established scholar and the head of department of political science at a national-level university. Our policies allow us to treat him as a WP:RS even for self-published material (WP:RSSELF: Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications.). Here I am citing his interview in The Diplomat, a reputed international news magazine.

"This video" that you mention was just reproduced from social media. It doesn't state a time and place. Neither does the newpaper claim it knows the time and place. It is not clearly not the "Solidarity march", which had 100,000 people protesting. (Authentic videos available with EastMojo). Most importantly, you can see in this video huge clouds of smoke rising at a distance. So these "Kuki militants", as they have been branded, were going to address the arson that was taking place at Torbung-Kangvai. A Meitei association document mentions the location as the "S. Bualjang" village (the original name of Torbung Bangla) and gives the time as 3:32pm. Some Kuki people that I have talked to explained the shouts of the local people as meaning "our police has arrived". It alludes to the inaction of the state police at Torbung-Kangvai, who remained as "mute spectators", and the local people summoning their own "police". It indicates the breakdown of the state authority. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:48, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

If you feel so strongly that K.K. Suan's article is a reliable source, by all means, go ahead and credit the edit to that source. Why have you not done so? You are misinterpreting The Sangai Express reporting which makes it completely unverifiable.

The meitei organisation document states that the village seen in the clip is S. Bualjang village at 3.32pm. S. Bualjang is in Churachandpur, 15km from Torbung Bangla. Where are you getting your info that this village is Torbung Bangla? And even if that was the case, why would a meitei organisation use a kuki name instead of the meitei name?

Why have you resorted to "chasing smoke" seen in a clip? Especially when churachandpur had been witnessing arsony since the morning of that day?- The document states offices being burnt at 11:26am.

I do agree that there was a breakdown of the state authority- people are literally going around burning offices and carrying automatic rifles in broad daylight.

You mentioned in another talk page that you were going offline soon. Please, credit your edit to K.K. Suan's article instead of The Sangai Express article which will make it at least verifiable WP:V. Tms369 (talk) 14:55, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

We can't discuss unspecified social media posts to death here. Since you asked "how do you explain?", I explained it. That is the end of that discussion. It is clear that it was not the video of the "Solidarity march".

The Sangai Express article mentions Kangvai, which is corroborated by other sources. It also mentions other locations, which are not corroborated in the same way. All the sources are cited. And, more can be cited if necessary. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:37, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

These are the citations 79 and 80 in the current version.

I think I am now done with this issue. If you want to contest this further, I suggest an RfC. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:04, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree to an RfC. This is going nowhere. Tms369 (talk) 16:14, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Timeline of events since 28th April, 2023 on e-pao.net. Its a very trusted and the very first online news website since a long time.

http://e-pao.net/epPageExtractor.asp?src=related_news.Violence_in_Manipur_2023_News_Timeline.html.. Gy9$y (talk) 10:32, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Villages

1.5km
1mile

  

Villages at the Churachandpur-Bishnupur district border

Villages in Manipur generally have separate settlements for Meitei/Kuki/Naga communities. They regard them as separate "villages" with different names (evn if by suffixing "Meitei", "Kuki" and "Naga" at the end). Their administrative structures would be different and the land revenue laws for them are different too. There may be a few stray people that live in the opposite side's village but not many.

• Kangvai is a Kuki village in the Bishnupur district.
• Adjacent to it on the north is Phugakchao Ikhai, which is a Meitei village. (You need to enlarge the map to see it.)
• Torbung is mixed, i.e., it has separate settlements within it for Meitei and Kuki communities.
• Bangla (or "Torbung Bangla") is a Meitei village in the Churachandpur district (going by Google Maps district boundaries). There is a small Kuki settlement in the middle of it, called "S. Boljang".
• Leisang further south in the Churachandpur district is the location of the Anglo-Kuki War Memorial Gate. I believe this village is entirely Kuki,

-- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:23, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

This map is awesome. But it could be improved by marking the start and end points of the Kuki march and then the points of confrontation and violence as given in the testimonials above. I had done some initial searches on Google Maps based on the initial May 4 reports from the Imphal papers, but I have not used {{Google Maps}} template before, so would be slow to create those annotations. Any help would be welcome. Chaipau (talk) 02:00, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

The march was in the Churachandpur town, some 10 km south of here. But, yeah, I get what you mean. That will be another map though. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 02:08, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

There is a bit of trickiness with the Kangvai village. Even though geographically it appears to be in the Bishnupur district, it may be administratively in the Churachandpur district. In the 2011 census, there is a Kangvai village listed in the Churachandpur district in the census, but none in the Bishnupur district. This could have caused a "no man's land" problem for law and order. The Bishnupur police could claim it was not in their jurisdiction while the Churachandpur police couldn't access it anyway due to the blockade. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:10, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

The border region of Bishnupur and Churachandpur districts have an amorphous character, administratively. Neither Meitei nor Kuki (land rights, etc.). I have come across this and shall look for the reference again. Chaipau (talk) 17:13, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

{{Edit request}} Add about - "2 Meitei students killed"

Add this

• 2 Meitei students missing from Imphal presumed killed after photos surface - (https://indianexpress.com/article/india/manipur-two-meitei-students-missing-imphal-killed-8956292/)
• 'We Saw the Photos': Father of One of the 2 Missing Students Killed in Manipur - (https://www.thequint.com/news/india/manipur-violence-photos-of-dead-bodies-meitei-students-surface)
• Photos of bodies of two Meitei students who went missing in July surface on social media - (https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/photos-of-bodies-of-two-meitei-students-who-went-missing-in-july-surface-on-social-media/article67346320.ece)
• Manipur news: Thousands of students protest in Imphal over deaths of two missing Meitei youths - (https://www.livemint.com/news/india/manipur-news-thousands-of-students-protest-in-imphal-over-deaths-of-two-missing-meitei-youths-11695719921752.html)
• In Manipur Horror, Pics Show 2 Students Killed, 2 Armed Men Behind Them - (https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/in-manipur-horror-pics-show-2-students-killed-2-armed-men-behind-them-4423464)
• Manipur Bans Mobile Internet Again Amid Protests Over Dead Students' Photos - (https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/manipur-reimposes-mobile-internet-ban-till-october-1-4426141)

103.251.217.210 (talk) 15:21, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: There were about 200 people killed in the violence. Individual details about some of them may be added in due course, but we can't just highlight one case. It would be WP:UNDUE. Kautilya3 (talk) 20:27, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

I think this deserves a mention in the Recurrent violence section as protests by thousands of students in school uniforms happened for the first time. This incident caused mass media coverage across India and globally after a relative calm. The Internet ban was reimposed. For the first time, a CBI team led by Special Director, Ajay Bhatnagar, arrived in Manipur.

[3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BFbBSzsdrI

Lairencha (talk) 11:28, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the current blow-up in Imphal does need to be covered. Please feel free to suggest text to add, along with citations. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:20, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

On 25 September 25, photographs of two Meitei students, Phijam Hemjit (20 years old) and Hijam Linthoingambi (17 years old), surfaced on social media. They were residents of Tera Tongbram Leikai in Imphal and had gone missing on June 6.[4] One of the photographs showed the two students siting in a forest area with two armed men at the background.[5] Another photograph showed the lifeless bodies of the two students lying on the ground. In the following days, students in Imphal protested against the killing of these two students. Manipur Police and Rapid Action Force were accused of resorting to use of excessive force, tear gas, and pellet guns. [6] Hundreds of students were injured in the protests. Among the injured were a student who had more than 40 pellet bullets on his skull, another student whose shoulder was shattered by pellets allegedly fired from a closed range, and a third student who got blinded in one eye. [7] [8][9][10] [11] On 28 September, the Manipur government constituted a committee to verify the complaints of alleged excessive use of force on protestors by security forces.[12]  The protests also led to the govenment banning mobile internet again till October 6. [13] The internet ban was earlier lifted after five months on September 23.[14]

On September 30, the National Investigation Agency (NIA) arrested a man from Churachandpur for being part of a "transnational conspiracy by terror outfits based in Myanmar and Bangladesh to “wage war” against the Government of India by exploiting the current ethnic unrest in Manipur. [15] [16] [14] On October 1, the Central Bureau of Investogations (CBI) arrested four people from Churachandpur for the killing of the two Meitei students. [17][18][19] The arrests led to Indigenous Tribal Leaders Forum (ITLF) in Churachandpur calling for a shut down of the district.[20] The NIA and CBI have refuted accusations of being high handed and said no partiality have been shown against any community and the rule book of the Indian Penal Code jas been abided by. [21] Lairencha (talk) 14:18, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Manipur Violence 2023 is not a religious conflict

Reference: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/manipur-violence-is-a-tribal-conflict-not-a-religious-one-bjp-quotes-christian-priest/articleshow/102214962.cms?from=mdr

Request: Please remove "Anti-Christian sentiment" from "Caused by" section Cherry.pick.wiki (talk) 17:51, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes 👍 117.211.220.140 (talk) 17:53, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support 103.251.217.210 (talk)