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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by NEDOCHAN (talk | contribs) at 10:00, 31 December 2023 (→‎Survey: vote). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Lucy Letby Introduction - Suggested edit

First line is currently:

"Lucy Letby (born 4 January 1990) is a British serial killer and former neonatal nurse who murdered seven infants and attempted to murder six others at the Countess of Chester Hospital between June 2015 and June 2016. “

It should say:

"Lucy Letby (born 4 January 1990) is an alleged British serial killer and former NHS neonatal nurse. She allegedly murdered seven infants and attempted to murder six others at the Countess of Chester Hospital between June 2015 and June 2016. She has lodged an appeal against her conviction.”

Justification: 1.The Court were unable to conclusively prove Lucy had murdered the infants - hence word "allegedly" and Peter Hitchins article in UK Newspapapers "What if Lucy is Not Guilty?"

2.The current wording shows unfair bias in light of the defence's appeal lodged against the conviction Flamingjune1900 (talk) 14:19, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Although willing to consider a change of wording, I don't think this is quite right. She has been convicted of the murders, and "alleged" is terminology usually applied prior to conviction. I am certainly willing to consider that convictions are not always safe and satisfactory, but any wording must still capture the state of play as it is. How about:
Lucy Letby (born 4 January 1990) is a former NHS neonatal nurse convicted of the serial murder of seven infants and attempted murder of six others at the Countess of Chester Hospital between June 2015 and June 2016. She has lodged an appeal against her conviction. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 14:30, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Sirfurboy for your guidance I hope your suggested edit can be implemented Flamingjune1900 (talk) 19:06, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have now made that change. Other editors may wish to adjust it though, which is fine. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:44, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your help Flamingjune1900 (talk) 21:03, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WARNING editors - that IP above is a clear sockpuppet of Richard Gill, the editor who was blocked indefinitely for advocacy in trying to portray convicted nurses as innocent. That almost EXACT suggested wording for how to word the intro is exactly what Richard Gill was demanding the article should be changed to on Twitter the other day - see here: [1]. Please can we not allow this article to be dictated by users banned from here for advocacy? Can neutral uninvolved editors who were aware of Gill’s block such as @DeCausa: @El C: @331dot: @Theroadislong: please have a look at this, and not allow these backdoor edits to be made by the banned Richard Gill (Gill110951). 93.96.18.54 (talk) 21:23, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, talking of sockpuppets, you sound a lot like someone, no? Thanks for bringing the tweet to our attention, but it seems to me it is less likely Gill than one of his twitter followers. In any case, the edit as per Gill has not been made. I made an edit based on my own view that "convicted of the serial murder" is the better rendering. As I have indicated, editors in good standing may disagree and adjust that, and that is fine. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 21:41, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
dear Sirfurboy I am not sure what this means but I didn't mean to cause problems I wanted to balance the introduction passage particular as Letby's defence is trying to appeal but if this is unacceptable change I understand. This is my only account as someone asked I will not make any more suggestions but I do think the page seems out of balance many thanks Flamingjune1900 (talk) 22:10, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Quetstar, you have reverted the change with edsum "disagree". Could you unpack that a little please. Is it the whole change, or a part of it? What is the disagreement with text that says she is convicted of murder over text that says she is a murderer? Thanks. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 23:17, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted the change because i felt it was downplaying the fact that she is a killer. Your change emphasized her former job as a neonatal nurse over her status as a murderer, which she is more commonly known for. Quetstar (talk) 23:45, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Surely she is known for being a nurse who has been convicted of murder of the babies in her care. a former NHS neonatal nurse convicted of the serial murder of seven infants doesn't downplay anything. This is your first edit to the article. Why this? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 23:56, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
First, I have been watching this article for a while now. Second, the text you proposed also emphasized the fact that she has filed an appeal, which no other article does. So in the end, I think that the original text is well balanced, neutral and consistent with other articles about convicted killers. Quetstar (talk) 00:53, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Right, so we can leave the appeal part out and keep it in a later paragraph (where it was, but needs updating). Whereas I do not think you have expressed any reason why the article should not use "convicted of". I will amend. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:20, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have restored the status quo in the opening sentence. Letby has been convicted of her crimes and is notable for her crimes. She wouldn't have an article on account of her nursing career. NEDOCHAN (talk) 12:27, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But now you have restored a version of the lead that doesn't say that. You have removed mention that she was convicted of her crimes. Why? This is how we report the facts of the matter. See, for instance Michael Stone (criminal), although it is never a great idea just to look at other Wikipedia articles, so let's see what others say. The Guardian has, e.g.,

Letby, who was a neonatal nurse at the hospital, was convicted in August of murdering seven babies and attempting to kill six more. [2]

People.com has:

Nurse Lucy Letby, one of the U.K.'s most prolific child killers, was convicted of murdering seven infants and attempting to murder six others in August 2023.[3]

I could go on. Those were just the first two I found with a "who is Lucy Letby" Google search. I expect there are counter examples too, but this is bog standard reporting and it is utter nonsense to say that there is any denial of her notability by saying "convicted of". Worse, this is POV editing. A neutral point of view would only stress the facts. The facts are that Letby is notable because she has been accused, tried and convicted of the murder of 7 babies and attempted murder of others. The fact she is a nurse, who had babies in her care is also key to the notability of this case. But, if we just call her a serial killer we are actually going beyond the facts and editorialising. It is editorialising because she has not admitted the crimes and is appealing them. It is a fact that she has been convicted of the crimes. It is likely a fact that she murdered the babies. But, we don't need to take sides on what is likely. This is an encyclopaedia, not a newspaper. So what you just restored has a neutrality issue.
It is not just there, of course. The whole article broadly follows the Panorama documentary and is put together with newspaper reports and so that is what it reads like. These are all primary sources. The whole article is not an encyclopaedic treatment. The problem is that we don't have secondary sources to work with. I have been looking, but not found any good independent reliable secondary sources yet. We should recognise that this article has serious issues, and not seek to bolster those by fighting to retain POV wording in the lead.
Also you have reverted lodged an appeal of the verdict to announced her intention to appeal. This is not a proper summary. Per the page, she has now lodged the appeal. Why did you revert that? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:16, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I restored it to the way it was. Of course she's been convicted. Otherwise you couldn't describe her as a serial killer. It is completely NPOV to describe her as such, as that's what she was found to be in a court of law. You can't write an article which takes into account the extent to which the conviction is correct or otherwise. That would be editorialisation. The appeal is mentioned in the article but that, as of now, is not lede worthy, as it's a small part of the overall story. Of course if the appeal were successful, it would certainly become lede worthy. But this is NOTNEWS, and the main point is that she is a serial killer. NEDOCHAN (talk) 15:52, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Of course she's been convicted. Otherwise you couldn't describe her as a serial killer. - Yes, but you have not understood the POV issue here. If we describe her as a serial killer then, you say, that of course this must mean she is convicted (and apparently don't need to say that - although, in fact, one can be a serial killer without being convicted of it). In any case the reverse is not actually true. If we say she is convicted of the murders, we state that a court has decided, beyond all reasonable doubt, that she is a serial killer, but actually she might, in an unlikely scenario, not be a serial killer. We know that in a small number of cases, convictions are overturned on appeal - or sometimes even after more than one appeal. By saying she is a serial killer we imply she is convicted, but we also imply that we have prejudged the issue of appeals and determined that there is no world in which this conviction would be overturned. It may seem we are obviously right in that, but we don't need to make the prejudgement. We have a neutral form of words that is factually correct and widely used in the sources. But you would rather we have a form of words that makes a prejudgement. This is not neutral point of view. I find myself at a loss as to why people are reverting to a non neutral version rather than seeking to refine and improve the wording I proposed.
As to the appeal, the appeal is mentioned in the lead. You simply reverted to the old version of that text that is now an incorrect summary of the main (the lead summarising the main per MOS:LEAD), because the appeal has been lodged. I think this was inadvertent on your part, but it is also a bad edit. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 16:43, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be interested to hear what others think. NEDOCHAN (talk) 21:25, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I totally agree with @NEDOCHAN on this. Quetstar (talk) 21:30, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've mulled over whether to respond here for a few days, and after reading everything above and many articles about the case, I've decided I will, and here is my two penn'orth...
Sure, it is expected and accepted that the news media will label those who have been convicted of multiple murders as "serial killers" and to say they have "murdered <n> people", and I am sure we can find plenty of reliable sources to support the use of that language here. We also have WP:BLPCRIME saying A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law, implying they are presumed guilty if convicted by a court. So it seems we are policy-compliant if we present it that way in the article.
However, we also know that Letby consistently and vehemently denied the charges, and that she has made an application for permission to appeal against all the convictions. We also know that the case lasted about 10 months, was heavily reliant on circumstantial evidence, and that the jury took more than 100 hours over 4 weeks deliberating to reach its verdicts. We also know that there are lawyers and scientists out there who are not sure that there hasn't been a misscarriage of justice. That all suggests that it wasn't a clear-cut case, and that there were serious doubts about the veracity of the prosecution's hypotheses.
So, bearing all this in mind, and given the advice given in the WP:WIKIVOICE section of WP:NPOV to Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts, I support Sirfurboy's argument and believe that the wording should clearly state the outcome of the trial, but should stick to just the incontrovertible facts, and omit the editorialising and interpretations that assert guilt in Wiki's voice. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:58, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
NEDOCHAN, in the light of this discussion, I had already modified my original edit to:

Lucy Letby (born 4 January 1990) is a British former neonatal nurse convicted of the serial murder of seven infants and attempted murder of six others at the Countess of Chester Hospital between June 2015 and June 2016.

You also reverted this reformulation, and your substantive argument above is only that "otherwise you can't describe her as a serial killer". I thus propose:

Lucy Letby (born 4 January 1990) is a British former neonatal nurse convicted of the serial murder of seven infants and attempted murder of six others at the Countess of Chester Hospital between June 2015 and June 2016.

I believe this answers your objections and this fairly represents a consensus view. I'll leave it a while for you to answer before asserting that edit. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:27, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not an assertion, it's a conviction. I have made my point and there's no need to repeat it. The lede is absolutely fine and correct and it's not the job of Wikipedia editors to account for the effectiveness of a court of law. The appeal is mentioned but is, as yet, of very little relevance. NEDOCHAN (talk) 13:57, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am aware you are the one who removed "convicted" in the first place so you may feel wedded to that, but the question is not whether you think the current wording is fine, but whether you believe there is any problem with the proposed change. If so, please express the concern. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:53, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I do not support the proposed change as she is notable for being a serial killer. She is not a famous nurse. NEDOCHAN (talk) 10:56, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But of course she is famous for being a nurse who was convicted of killing babies in her care. Sources already given in this thread. What is your argument for withholding this information, considering sources above show that this is how she is, in fact, described? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 17:52, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's because she would have failed the notability test for crime perpetrators as described in WP:CRIME (and thus wouldn't get her own article) had not been for the nature of her crimes. She was virtually unknown until her arrest and conviction. Therefore, she is notable as a serial killer and the lead, as a summary of the article, should reflect as such. Quetstar (talk) 18:56, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Look this is just a nonsense. MOS:LEAD does not say you can only mention in the lead the thing that makes the subject notable. It says: the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents. That Lucy Letby was a nurse is important content. Again, why wouldn't we say that? what is wrong with that revised formulation above? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:11, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps a slight reordering of words could satisfy both camps - how about:

Lucy Letby (born 4 January 1990) is a British woman who was convicted of the serial murder of seven infants and attempted murder of six others at the Countess of Chester Hospital whilst she was a neonatal nurse there between June 2015 and June 2016.

-- DeFacto (talk). 19:13, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy with that one. I might note that she is not notable for being a woman, but that might seem churlish, so I won't ;) Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:15, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

:::::::::::Um, Sirfurboy, current contemporaneous, reliable sources explicitly introduce Letby as a serial killer: [4], [5], [6]. That is, as NEDOCHAN says, how she is defined and what she is notable for. Are you suggesting that we shouldn't describe Fred West as a serial killer in the first line? Letby is now defined by being a serial killer. What is your argument for withholding this information, considering said sources show that this is how she is, in fact described? Presumably your argument will be that this describing of Letby comes from 'primary sources' reporting on the trial - it does not, they are secondary news sources reporting on different matters months after the conviction introducing her unambiguously as a serial killer nurse, and obviously the term "serial killer" is not taken primary-source-style from the trial as she was not - and could not - be described as such in sources until she was found guilty. So you can't use the argument that this is some sort of ineligible 'primary source' definition. Is your argument then DeFacto's, that this is some sort of immoral sensationalist term that "the media" use? Because we should not be deviating from what "the media" say because we don't like it, we have to follow the sources, not decide for ourselves whether we agree with them or not and instead spin it our own way. I am fully in agreement with NEDOCHAN, Quetstar and IP 93.96.18.54 here. 109.144.211.65 (talk) 21:36, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, I noticed that our see also has (emphasis mine):

  • Beverley Allitt – British nurse convicted of murdering, attempting to murder and causing grievous bodily harm of infants and children in 1993
  • Benjamin Geen – British nurse convicted in 2006 of murdering two patients
  • Genene Jones – American nurse responsible for the deaths of up to 60 infants and children in her care during the 1970s and 1980s
  • Colin Norris – British nurse convicted of murdering four patients with insulin in 2008
  • Barbara Salisbury – British nurse convicted in 2004 of attempting to murder patients to "free up beds" - Note, I removed this one as a red link which makes no sense in a see also. Removal of it is without prejudice to someone creating a page from the red link, so happy to have the red link here.
  • Harold Shipman – British general practitioner convicted in 2000 of 15 murders but suspected of as many as 250

Genene Jones is listed as "convicted" of one count in her article, as that is all she was convicted of. The "up to 60" is speculative. There is clearly no problem with the use of the word "convicted" in crime articles. It is good summary information. They all also specify nures/GP up front, before the word "convicted". Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:57, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Quetstar, this revert [7] is stonewalling. Note that it is again a new formulation, and one where you where you have failed to identify any issue with the wording, whether in the discussion or in your edsum. You are instead repeatedly reverting to your formulation, also without any consensus. In what way is that wording deficient? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted the change due to the fact that it did not secure enough consensus for it to be made. At this stage, you should follow the steps in the dispute resolution process, which you are clearly seeking to circumvent. Quetstar (talk) 08:58, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You reverted a change that did not have any objections except from a sockpuppet who asked you to make the change on your talk page. The sockpuppet is disruptive. An RfC to change one word is the next step, but will take a month and a lot of my time to put together. I would rather avoid that by building a consensus here. I would ask you to ignore the sockpuppet and consider the discussion here where it is very clear that the word "convicted" is the usual and expected way of describing these things. Any dispute resolution will attempt to drill down to what is actually wrong with the attempted reworking above. What exactly is wrong with that wording? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:23, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I objected to it. Sirfurboy I'd remind you that you're not the arbiter as to what constitutes a solid argument. The examples you give all describe their subjects as serial killers/murderers. They wouldn't be able to do so had the subjects not been convicted. In my opinion there is no need to change the wording. NEDOCHAN (talk) 14:39, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You did not object to it. Please see above, version by DeFacto, 19:13, 3 December 2023. You have no stated objection to that revised wording (note that I also included a wikilink to serial killer in the edit). What is your objection to that version please? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 14:49, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's worse than what's there. For reasons I've stated. I also think you're veering into BLUDGEON territory. Keep the STATUSQUO and wait for the input of others. We have time. I think you've had your say. NEDOCHAN (talk) 14:55, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please read WP:SQS and particularly WP:SQSAVOID. What are the policy reasons against the edit please? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 14:58, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have to satisfy you. Why do you insist on making me repeat myself? The edit above does not describe her as a serial killer, which is what she is notable for. All similar articles, including the ones you have linked above, do. I also think you're BLUDGEONing this discussion. NEDOCHAN (talk) 15:04, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It does. It describes her as a serial murderer, wikilinked to serial killer. See here: [8]. It very specifically takes account of that objection. Again, this was a refined edit taking account of objections you have raised. So what is the policy objection to this edit please? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 15:09, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't describe her as a serial killer. That is what she is NOTABLE for. Re policy, this is about as blatant an example of BLUDGEON that I can think of. Again, you have given your views. Wait to see whether you get CONSENSUS. NEDOCHAN (talk) 15:24, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Quetstar, and remember too that 'consensus' doesn't mean majority of votes, it, per WP:DETCON, is ascertained by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy.
So quality of argument with respect to Wiki policies is the measure (not majority based on a count of personal opinions). What we need from your side is the policy-based rationale for keeping the version you reverted too to help resolve this. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:58, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think that an RfC is the way forward at this stage. Also, the edit was implemented before others had the time to comment on it. Quetstar (talk) 15:50, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I waited a day, but yes, the edit was bold (being a new and different edit and not a simple reversion). Your reversion should describe what is wrong with the edit in the edsum or here. Thus far you have not explained why that formulation was not policy compliant. Please also have a read of WP:SQS. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 16:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So I made another edit 9 days ago which has not been reverted, saying:

Lucy Letby (born 4 January 1990) is a British serial killer and former neonatal nurse convicted of the murder of seven infants and attempted murder of six others between June 2015 and June 2016.

I thus take it that the point at issue was a contention that "is a British serial killer" should be preferred over "convicted of the serial murder" (linked to serial killer). I just want to check this before taking this to an RfC, because if the word "convicted" is also being contested, the RfC options will need to reflect that. Currently I propose the above wording as one option, and

Lucy Letby (born 4 January 1990) is a British former neonatal nurse, convicted of the serial murder of seven infants and attempted murder of six others between June 2015 and June 2016.

as the other. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:51, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What is a "baby collapse"?

I understand what it means when a building or a house of cards collapses, or an old person who has trouble standing up, but what does it mean when a baby who can't even walk yet collapses? What were they doing to the babies that made it even possible for them to collapse? A5 (talk) 00:10, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The answer to your question is that it is a medical term applied when a neonate (term or near term) is discovered in a state of "cardiorespiratory extremis such that resuscitation with intermittent positive pressure ventilation is required."[9] The fact that you needed to ask the question does suggest we should edit the article to appropriately describe the term. I am not sure that should be in the lead, but then we would need to avoid the term "collapse" in the lead. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:41, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 December 2023

Add the following text to whatever section would be relevant: "On 12 December 2023, the Nursing and Midwifery Council struck Letby off the nursing register after finding her unfit to practise; Letby denied her guilt but did not contest the Council's decision.[1][2] Truecrimefan22 (talk) 20:14, 12 December 2023 (UTC) Truecrimefan22 (talk) 20:14, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Keane, Daniel (23 December 2023). "Baby killer Lucy Letby stripped of nursing credentials after panel orders she be struck off from register". Evening Standard.
  2. ^ Gawne, Ewan (12 December 2023). "Killer nurse Lucy Letby found unfit to practise and struck off register". BBC News.
 Done with a shorter version by user S C Cheese. Thanks. TwoTwoHello (talk) 22:05, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RFC on Lead sentence

Which of the following lede sentences should open the article on Lucy Letby?

A. Lucy Letby (born 4 January 1990) is a British serial killer and former neonatal nurse convicted of the murder of seven infants and attempted murder of six others between June 2015 and June 2016.

B. Lucy Letby (born 4 January 1990) is a British former neonatal nurse convicted of the serial murder of seven infants and attempted murder of six others between June 2015 and June 2016.

Please answer A or B, with a brief statement in the Survey. Do not reply to other editors in the Survey. That's what the Discussion section is for. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:10, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

B - WP:NPOV is core to the mission of Wikipedia. Letby has been convicted of the murder and the conviction may well be sound. If she killed the babies she is a murderer, but she has still not admitted doing so, and the legal process is not exhausted. History shows a case with many comparable particulars where it was shown years later that the nurse involed could not have carried out the murders, and that there were no murders (Lucia de Berk), and there are statisticians and academics who have raised some concerns about this conviction. Wikipedia must never take sides on these subjects, and option 2 accurately reports facts, hides nothing, gives prominence to all salient details without making a judgement in wikivoice. A court of law has found Letby guilty and she has been convicted of the murders. We don't need to say she is a murderer. That may be true. We may think it is very likely that is true, but the existence of a small doubt makes the neutral wording favourable, as nothing is lost by doing so. This is also the wording that is generally followed in reliable secondary sources (see discussion below). and also follows what editors have placed on the page itself when referring to other cases (see discussion below). Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:10, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A - per MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE the main reason this person is notable is for being a serial killer. Reliable sources have described Letby as a "child serial killer."[10][11][12] This isn't in dispute and I'm not sure why this RFC is even necessary. We should avoid WP:OTHERSTUFF that is cited in the discussion below, but there's other stuff that supports A as well. I would actually be reword the lead to say Lucy Letby (born 4 January 1990) is a British serial killer convicted of the murder of seven infants and attempted murder of six others while being a nurse between June 2015 and June 2016. This person wasn't notable for being a nurse. She's notable for killing children. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 16:57, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

B - (Brought here from WP:RFC/A) I do think that identifying her as a neonatal nurse before disclosing she is a serial killer gives weight to the details surrounding the murders. Therefore I do think it's prevalent to address her as a nurse first that was convicted. Leading into her being a "British serial killer" doesn't seem to follow the purest form of natural flow. MaximusEditor (talk) 21:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A - I agree with Nemov, her notability is derived from her being a serial killer, otherwise there wouldn't even be an article on her. It is a significant viewpoint and should be the lead descriptor in the first sentence. Isaidnoway (talk) 10:48, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Isaidnoway, do you see a difference between "serial killer" and "convicted of serial murder" in that respect? -- DeFacto (talk). 11:14, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. If one is convicted of serial murder, by default, that makes them a serial killer. It's the same with any serial killer, like Jeffrey Dahmer, Edward Edwards (serial killer), William Sapp (serial killer), Edward Walton (serial killer), Martha Wise etc. Just like Lucy Letby, we wouldn't have an article about them either, because their notability stems from them being a serial killer. And Letby meets the generally accepted criminological definition of a serial killer – that is, someone who commits three or more murders on separate occasions which are not for revenge or material gain. I'm not seeing any compelling reason to not describe her that way first and foremost in the lead sentence. Isaidnoway (talk) 11:42, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Isaidnoway, so as you see no difference, you would presumably accept "convicted of serial murder" in place of "serial killer" as a compromise here to help us reach a consensus? -- DeFacto (talk). 11:51, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, I prefer serial killer. There is no reason not to describe her that way first and foremost in the lead sentence. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:56, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

B - I think we need to consider WP:PARTIAL here, particularly this sentence: The tone of Wikipedia articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view. Yes, it is an incontrovertible fact she was convicted of a number of murders, but it is also an incontrovertible fact that that doesn't necessarily mean that she had actually murdered anyone and that an appeal is possible. And until we can incontrovertibly say that she had actually murdered those babies, I don't think we can assert in Wiki's voice that she is a murderer.

So, with respect to MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE, as she cannot be notable as a serial murderer as we do not know whether she actually is one, we need to fall-back to what we do know, which is that she is notable for having been convicted of serial murder. How some of the news media might choose to spin that is irrelevant as, unlike Wikipedia, even the most reliable news media has no duty to be neutral, and that where we encounter bias in sources we, per WP:YESPOV (under the "Prefer nonjudgmental language" bullet point), which says A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject (or what reliable sources say about the subject), although this must sometimes be balanced against clarity. Present opinions and conflicting findings in a disinterested tone. Do not editorialize. When editorial bias towards one particular point of view can be detected the article needs to be fixed. The only bias that should be evident is the bias attributed to the source, need to summarise it in an impartial tone. -- DeFacto (talk). 11:56, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Having been convicted of serial murder makes her a serial murderer. We cannot say in wikivoice that someone is a serial murderer unless they have been convicted of serial murder. Reliable sources make it abundantly clear she is notable for being a serial killer, and that is neither spin or irrelevant. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:16, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
agree with Isaidbiway. Frankly, this whole discussion is worthless, as we've been through this extensively recently. It might not be sirfurboy's preference, but it's still fine. NEDOCHAN (talk) 01:18, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

B - largely for stylistic reasons, though I don't wholly disregard the NPOV considerations. I slightly take issue with those who say she is only notable for her multiple murders, actually she is notable for being a natal nurse, who (seemingly) murdered her charges. A massive amount of the coverage is about the apparent contradiction between what she was being paid, and trusted, to do and what she actually has been convicted of doing. Therefore the flow of ideas works better with B IMO. She isn't a murderess who just happened to make a living by nursing. Pincrete (talk) 09:11, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A - Letby is convicted and multiple reliable sources identify her as a serial killer. There is nothing of substance to the argument that "she's convicted but that doesn't mean she really murdered anyone." By that rationale, we couldn't ever refer to someone as a murderer or killer, because of the potential a court got it wrong. That is not a reasonable standard, and is outside the scope of Wikipedia: we go by what RS say, which is that she is a convicted murderer & serial killer. If a future court overturned her convictions, the article could be reverted, but per WP:CRYSTAL we are not here to speculate on that potentially happening. Identifying her as a serial killer is impartial, as that's what reliable sources have done. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 13:29, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A - She's a serial killer. We know that she killed these children (because a jury said so after seeing the evidence); and we know how she killed them (with lethal doses of insulin, and by injecting air into their bloodstreams); and we have the highest quality sources saying these things. To deny that she's a serial killer is to deny what the sources say. She's got a Wikipedia article because, and only because, she's Britain's most prolific serial killer of children in modern history. It's important that we keep that information in the lede.

WP:CANVASS disclosure: My attention was attracted to this discussion because an IP editor posted on my talk page about it.—S Marshall T/C 14:22, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A - For better or worse that is what she is notable for. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 15:20, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A - Agree with the other comments above. She's known for her serial killings, which is why she has an article here in the first place. Some1 (talk) 15:45, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A - Completely agree with S Marshall comments, also stating that someone who has been convicted of multiple murders a serial killer is in no way a NPOV issue. Waiting for the entire legal process to be exhausted in not required, only multiple independent reliable sources and that mark has been easily met. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:04, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A - Superficially there's not a vast difference between them. However I dislike B because the way it's phrased might give the impression that the convictions could be unsound. Best to be clear, which A is. Nigej (talk) 16:51, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

B - Pared right down, Letby's significance to me – and I dare to think, more generally – is as a nurse who killed her charges, or at least is convicted of that. I therefore prefer B's order. I don't care what her ranking is as to number killed and we'd still have an article on her even if someone else had killed more. Whether we describe her as a murderer (or killer), convicted murderer or convicted of murder is not as significant; each is damning.

I didn't follow the case closely but I'm aware that it was extraordinarily long and in the absence of "smoking guns", demanded a lot of work from the prosecution and the jury. The jury will have been instructed to convict only on the basis of the evidence presented and only if they found it beyond reasonable doubt that she murdered or attempted murder as charged (they mostly did). WP:RSs usually treat convictions as determing the facts of the case, the UK's libel courts treat the fact of a conviction as completely adequate justification for calling someone a murderer, and we usually treat such reporting as definitive even though we know and document that convictions are sometimes overturned (although we may sometimes accept the consensus of historians that there was a miscarriage of justice even if no appeal was successful). Thus while "convicted of murder" clearly satisfies WP:V, "convicted murderer" and "murderer" also satisfy WP:V as it is normally applied. I wish there had been an option C on the lines of

Lucy Letby (born 4 January 1990) is a British former neonatal nurse who murdered seven infants and attempted the murder of six others between June 2015 and June 2016. NebY (talk) 17:30, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning A. There is not much in it. The two sentences are pretty much equivalent. B flows slightly better but, after reading some of the comments here, I have to lean towards A because some people see B as allowing room for doubt in her guilt. Personally I do not read it that way but the mere fact that anybody sees ambiguity in B, and advocates for it on that basis, makes me feel that it might be necessary to stick with A, even if it is very slightly clunky. --DanielRigal (talk) 19:18, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

B She has been convicted, which is factual whether or not she truly committed the murders we cannot be 100% certain. Lightoil (talk) 10:23, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A – She fits the definition of serial killer, and this should come first. Wjfox2005 (talk) 20:07, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

B Serial killer is using strong language and falls under WP:PUFF In a Wikipedia article, there should not be praise-filled (nor criticism-filled) adjectives appended to the subject's name. Dobblesteintalk 21:54, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Serial killer is neither a criticism or praise. It's a non-contentious definition for someone who commits several murders. "Serial killer" is in no way, shape, or form WP:PUFF. Nemov (talk) 22:28, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A with a note that this entire thing was pointless, as we've dealt with it recently already. Collosal waste of time.

Discussion

Comment/discussion of sources - Talk page history demonstrates the term "convicted of" was accepted but an editor has objected that Letby is known, first and foremost, as a serial killer. Thus this should come first and foremost in the lead. As well as creating the neutrality issue, I don't think Letby is known first and foremost as a serial killer. Looking at sources (and this page needs to move beyond sensationalist newspaper primary sources) I searched Google scholar for WP:RS secondary sources. These are the wordings used by the first four hits on Lucy Letby and are indicative of the larger set:

  1. The dreadful reality of the Lucy Letby case is still sinking in. That a neonatal nurse was murdering babies under her care and attempting to harm more is hard to comprehend.[13]
  2. the case of Lucy Letby, the neonatal nurse convicted of murdering...[14]
  3. Lucy Letby, a neonatal nurse, was sentenced to life in prison for the murder of seven babies[15]
  4. The case of Lucy Letby, a neonatal nurse who has just been given a full life sentence for the murder of seven babies[16]

These are all from the BMJ, an impeccable source. In every case they start off with her being a neonatal nurse. Letby is known for being a nurse convicted of murdering babies in her care. The first has "was murdering", but the others are all more carefully worded. Convicted of or sentenced for the murders (and no mention of serial murder, although clearly multiple murders do meet the definition). So the treatment in reliable sources does strongly favour both a neutral wording (e.g. "convicted of") and for beginning with "neonatal nurse". I anticipate an objection that the BMJ may be predisposed to stressing the medical setting, but googling "who is Lucy Letby" shows news sources also nearly all begin with her being a nurse. E.g. first three hits:

  1. Nurse Lucy Letby has been convicted...[17]
  2. Nurse Lucy Letby has been found guilty of murdering babies...[18]
  3. The neonatal nurse...[19] - Second paragraph. This one is weak evidence though. The headline begins "serial killer" and the headline appears meant to be read with the text, and is not just an article hook. You could argue this one is "serial killer" first. Even so, the fact she was a nurse is clearly highly pertinent and mentioned up front.

So there is no reason not to say "neonatal nurse" up front, just as there is no reason not to say convicted of - (the latter point having now been accepted). Indeed we strongly prefer occupation first neutral wording on the page itself in the see also section (where the whole reason for selection is that these are comparable cases - implicitly demonstrating that the fact she was a nurse was a key factor here):

  • Beverley Allitt – British nurse convicted of murdering, attempting to murder and causing grievous bodily harm of infants and children in 1993
  • Benjamin Geen – British nurse convicted in 2006 of murdering two patients
  • Genene Jones – American nurse responsible for the deaths of up to 60 infants and children in her care during the 1970s and 1980s
  • Colin Norris – British nurse convicted of murdering four patients with insulin in 2008
  • Harold Shipman – British general practitioner convicted in 2000 of 15 murders but suspected of as many as 250

Genene Jones is listed as "convicted" of one count in her article, as that is all she was convicted of. The "up to 60" is speculative. There is clearly no problem with the use of the word "convicted" in crime articles, nor of occupation first, when the occupation is clearly key to the story interest. It is good summary information. They all specify nurse/GP up front, before the word "convicted". So tl;dr: Option B is the most neutral and most representative wording found in reliable sources. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:12, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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