Talk:Four-ball billiards

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This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cue sports, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of pool, carom billiards and other cue sports on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Cue sportsWikipedia:WikiProject Cue sportsTemplate:WikiProject Cue sportscue sports articles

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List of wanted articles...

Games: A bunch of high-priority game redlinks, e.g. American four-ball billiards (redirs to Four-ball billiards but not specifically covered there)
"Legends": Edwin Kelly, Charlie Peterson (pool player) (all BCA Hall of Famers); George Franklin Slosson, Maurice Daly (billiards player), Frank Ives, George Butler Sutton [not George H. Sutton, the one with no hands]
Male pool bios: Hsia Hui-kai
Female pool bios:
Male three-cushion bios: Dion Nelin & Jozef Bel Philipoom
Female carom bios: Aygen Berk Saygıner
Aristic pool bios: Nick Nikolaidis, Mark Dimick,Sebastian Giumelli, Eric Yow
Unranked in current pool but notable: Mike Eufemia, Shannon Daulton, Jimmy Reid (pool player) [speed pool champ], var. Mosconi Cup players
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Five-pins bios: Gustavo Zito
Organizations: Joss Tour
Events: WPA World Nine-ball Championships (pre-1997), BCA Open Nine-ball Championship, World 14.1 Continuous Championship, International Challenge of Champions (pool)
Media and misc.: Iwan Simonis (leading billiard cloth maker), Joss Cues (major cue mfr.), The Baron and the Kid [Johnny Cash film], Ultimate Pool Party [TV show]
And: everyone/thing listed at WP:CUEGAMES, WP:CUEEVENTS, WP:CUEORGS, WP:CUEBIOS, & WP:CUEMISC. Also a Cue sports world records article (many can be pulled from bio articles like Geet Sethi, Guinness Book will provide others, and so will BCA and other orgs., websites and books like Shamos 1999).
Meta: Outline of cue sports (OoK; cf. [1], etc.) – presently redirects to Cue sports, but this is not an OoK page.
Internal pages: Something like: [2][3]). Such pages are not fluff, but can be good places to find recruits for the project, possibly including subject-matter experts, especially if cross-referenced to the project. Also, Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Cue sports (cf. [4][5][6]).

Cleanup : Thomas Engert, Marlon Manalo
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Expand : Cue sports techniques#Carom shots (section needs to exist), Straight pool, Alfredo de Oro,Jeanette Lee (pool player)
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Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Four Ball

[This topic was originally posted to Talk:Cue sport and has been copied here because of its relevance.]

Four ball is a very popular carom game played in Korea. Even though I can't find an English webpage that explains how to play (an indication the game may not be popular among English speakers), I feel the game should be documented in wikipedia.

I can attest that the game is played in the US, as I know it's played in a pool hall in Boston that has carom tables.

I'd like to gather up all the information I have on Four Ball (hopefully by finding a set of rules from a book) and write up a new article. Any objections or thoughts from other people before I move forward?

Note that it's a *carom* game, not to be confused with "American Four-Ball Billiards". The following quote from the Billiard Congress of America website explains American Four-Ball Billiards:

The dominant American billiard game until the 1870’s was American Four-Ball Billiards, usually played on a large (11 or 12-foot), four-pocket table with four balls - two white and two red.

fyi: The game is played with two red balls and two white (cue) balls. One of the white balls is spotted or yellow to differentiate it from the other.

Thanks everyone.--PaulLopez 04:06, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hadn't noticed this post before, so this note is a bit retroactive: The vague mention of a variant in the four-ball article stub led me to fork it into four-ball and yotsudama after some investigation. Both articles need more material and especially some references. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 22:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have come across this game as well in an old rule book that went with our family's table. It's referenced, but anything else I have been able to find is that it essentially died out in American sport. If this section can be expanded or anyone has more information. I found it online: Pages 9, 10. http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/rules_1914tpr.pdf 3:43PM 5/1/20 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.189.157.15 (talk) 19:45, 1 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Variant

While stationed in Korea, I played Four Ball at the rec room on post. I know that the way I was taught by the local Koreans, your cue ball had to strike both red balls without hitting the opponent's cue. We played to a predetermined point level at which time, we had to "3 cushion" to win (cue ball has to touch 3 cushions before striking the final red ball). This may have been a local variant.

The above rule does not apply to Yotsudama played in Japan. So the description in the "the Asian Version" section of the article is also inaccurate, because the rules explained here are for the Korean Four-ball, and not for the Japanese Four-ball, or Yotsudama. The Japanese rules (as myself, a Tokyo resident, and my friends play) are pretty much described in the header of this article --"The game is played on a pocketless table with four balls, usually one light red, one dark red, and two whites (or just two reds and two whites). Each player is assigned one of the white balls as his own cue ball. A point is scored when a shooter caroms on any two other balls. Two points are scored when the player caroms on each o2f the three other balls." --Only the points are counted differently, two when a shooter caroms on a red ball and a white (opponent's cue) ball, three points when a shooter caroms on two red balls, and five points when the player caroms on each of the three balls. Shonuffyo (talk) 07:06, 27 August 2012 (UTC)Shonuffyo (talk) 07:14, 27 August 2012 (UTC) The aforementioned Japanese Four-ball or Yotsudama rules are described in a Japanese billiards handbook I own, titled Biliyaado Nyumon (Billiards Guidebook), published from Kinensha in 1986 (ISBN4-321-25422-1).Shonuffyo (talk) 07:26, 27 August 2012 (UTC) So practically there is nothing unique with the Japanese Four-ball or Yotsudama rules compared with Robert Froeschle's definition of the Four-ball except for its scoring system. Also the official scoring system has altered in the eighties so that all three types of caroms score only one point equally. But fans who still play this game in Japan tend to use the old 2-3-5 scoring system. In the website dadamaster has referred to within the "Merge Proposal" section (http://www.tufs.ac.jp/ts/personal/choes/etc/billiards/danggu.html), the author of the website points out that the Korean Four-ball rule is similar to a local rule of the Japanese Four-ball called "Aka-aka ge-emu" (red-red game) in which you can only score by caroming red balls. But I have never been aware of such rule until I read this article so maybe it was something that was known when Four-ball or Yotsudama still used be a favorite game among billiard players in Japan. It has given away its position quite some time ago to Pocket billiards and Three-cushion billiards.Shonuffyo (talk) 10:49, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Splitting the article

Resolved

– Split made, then later reversed.

It's very clear from the description of the balls that "Four-ball version 2" is yotsudama. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 14:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Marking topic resolved, as article was split. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 23:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge proposal

Resolved

– Re-merge performed.

I can find precisely zero evidence that four-ball and yotsudama are not the same game. Merging the latter into the former is thus called for (and not the other way around, per WP naming conventions - prefer English-language names over foreign terms.) Followup discussion should happen at Talk:Four ball not Talk:Yotsudama. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 08:58, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I support your merge proposal. There are only minor differences among the International, Korean and Japanese rules so they can be merged under one page.

I thought "yoSTudama" was a typo of "yoTSudama" as a first glance but now I feel "yoSTudama" may also be a legitimate spelling. In Japanese, it is definitely "yoTSudama". However, according to one Japanese Web site, Korean players use many loanwords from Japanese. So they may use the loanword for the game's name as well. I know there is no 'TSU' sound in the Korean language and "yoTSudama" may have become "yoSTudama" in Korea. And it is most likely it was Korean players who brought the game to the West because "yoTSudama" or ("yoSTudama") is very popular in Korea, and it is not now in Japan. We need a Korean native contributor on this matter.

After you merge the articles, I'll add the section for the Japanese rule, which is again slightly different from the rule described in this Yotsudama article. Tarafuku10 13:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Another opinion...

I wrote original text about for korean four-ball.

1. I've played the game in Korea and have spoken with Korean players. The game in Korea is called "danggu" (another English spelling is danggoo), which is a Korean word which translates to "four-ball". Whatever the decision to merge the articles, this subject should be under "yotsudama" alone, since that is the name only used in Japan. I can think of a few solutions... (1) at least mention that the game is called "danggu" in Korea, (2) forward a "danggu" article to "yotsudama", (3) fold "yotsudama" back into "four-ball" and be sure to note the Japanese, Korean (and other) translation-names of the game.

2. By ALL MEANS, the games (danggu/yotsudama versus four-ball) are different enough to warrant a separate note on wikipedia. Four-ball players always allow the shooter to contact the opponent's cue to score points, whereas to do so in danggu/yotsudama it is a penalty.

3. Check out [[7]] for "danggu" in use. Mrpaulus 21:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't entirely follow you. I'm not sure what you mean by "four-ball" in point #2 above, if not either danggu or yotsudama. Are you proposing that there are three games? NB: I'm well aware of the game "American four-ball billiards", but it has been effectively extinct since the late 1800s, when balkline and straight rail superseded it. Anyway, thanks for the article citation; will have to check that out. That may be virtually our only English-language source at this point! Anyone reading here know Japanese? There's a book (easily findable on Amazon with a search for "yotsudama") but it is in Japanese. Anyway, I would think for the present that (per WP naming conventions), the article should be called Four-ball [or Four-ball billiards, as proposed below] and have sections on both yotsudama and danggu (and some third "four-ball" game if it can be sourced to exist [note: it has been already]). Maybe some day there'll be enough sourceable material to warrant separate articles, but right now all of this is frankly a big AfD "magnet". — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 23:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC) [updated with notes, 01:52, 26 October 2014 (UTC)][reply]

There are TWO general types of four ball games played on a carambole table.

Eastern Europe

One just adds an extra ball to partie-libre, giving two points for a carambole off three balls. This type is quite popular in eastern Europe.

South-East Asia

The other one is mainly played in south-east Asia, mainly Japan and Korea, though China should also be documented here (I have a photo of former Chinese premier Deng Hsiao-Ping playing Asian four-ball in the fifties). In this game it is a fault to hit your opponent's cue ball with your cue ball (though not with ANY ball as youtsudama entry says). The asian game has a Korean and a Japanese variant (at least).

In the Korean variant the opening position is similar to the one in partie-libre, while in the Japanese the cue-ball is placed behind the second red ball (on the first diamond).

In the Japanese variant play ends when the set distance has been reached, in the Korean one one has to go out after that by doing a three cushion shot.

There is an article on the differences between the two on a japanese website, which when web-translated shows the variation between the two variants: http://www.tufs.ac.jp/ts/personal/choes/etc/billiards/danggu.html

Of course the exact rules of the variants, their history and popularity would need to be researched by native readers both in S.E. Asia and Eastern Europe.

dadamaster 20:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Korea and Japan are in Northeast Asia. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 01:50, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect page request

Done

– to the extent needed

Can someone create redirect pages from the following terms to this article? "Korean Pool", "Korean Billiard", "Korean Billiards", "Danggu"

And four-ball billiards, fourball billiards, 4-ball billiards, etc. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 08:26, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PS: "Pool" and "Billiards" should not be capitalized in the above. Korean Billiards with a capital-B should be tagged with {{r from alternative capitalization}} on the redirect. But it should also redirect from the name Korean billiards. Both should have {{r from subtopic}} and {{r to section}} and link to the section. "Korean pool" is actually wrong, as this is not a pool (pocket billiards) game at all, and should not redirect here, nor as "Korean Pool"; both of those should remain redlinks unless and until we have an article on something called "Korean pool". "Korean billiard" and "Korean Billiard" (the latter with {{r from alternative capitalization}}) are also technically wrong, because "billiard" is not used in the singular this way in English. However, given the difficulty many English-as-a-second-language learners have with plurals in English, they'd be okay as redirects marked with {{r from misspelling}}, as well as {{r from subtopic}} and {{r to section}}. Danggu should definitely redirect here, with both of the latter redirect categorization templates. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 01:48, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just completed all that. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 04:48, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested moves

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the pages, per the discussion below. Help requested on redirecting redirects. Dekimasuよ! 05:13, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

– There are (so far) six things to disambiguate, and none of them but the mathematical usage have consistent spellings in the real world, so the WP:DIFFPUNCT analysis fails - we cannot disambiguate simply by tweaking spacing, spelling, capitalization or other style. Thus Four-ball should be a disambiguation page, with Four-Ball, Fourball, Four ball, Four Ball, 4-ball, 4-Ball, 4 ball and 4 Ball being redirects to it. Various incoming links, redirects, and disambiguation hatnotes will need to be cleaned up, post-move. The odd "fourball" spelling of one of these pages is normalized to standard English "four-ball", well attested in sources.[8][9]. The other forms ("4 Ball golf", etc.) are not acceptable per MOS:NUM, MOS:HYPHEN, MOS:CAPS, as applicable. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 03:31, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support as above all 24.131.80.54 (talk) 00:48, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.