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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Qwerfjkl (bot) (talk | contribs) at 21:10, 12 February 2024 (Implementing WP:PIQA (Task 26)). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Edit conflict with Akbar the Great

@Akbar the Great: Addressing conflicting points one by one below:

  1. Area of operation filed is for area, infobox fields are not for detailed descriptions, they are what they are for, Mukti Bahini's area of operation was East Pakistan and that should be mentioned in that field and nothing else but to compromise i am ready to accept "during Bangladesh Liberation War" but if you must insist that we must mention "1971 Bangladesh genocide" then you must source it and the source must say that "Mukti Bahini was active during 1971 Bangladesh genocide" otherwise we should stick to the term "Bangladesh Liberation War", as for your claim that the term "Bangladesh" was widely used after 26 March 1971, i am sorry i am not ready to accept that in the infobox because Bangladesh officially became a nation on 16 December 1971 and that area was officially "East Pakistan" and only that should be used in infobox filed "Area of operation".
  2. As for alleged atrocities committed by Pakistan Army, they are already mentioned under Mukti Bahini#Bangladesh-India Allied Forces, i am not sure why you are repeating that in Mukti Bahini#Early resistence, keep only one of them although i need to check the source for the text added under Mukti Bahini#Early resistence.
  3. As for atrocities committed by "Allied forces (Mukti Bahini and Indian Army)", they are sourced and well-documented as well and you should not remove sourced information only because your POV version does not agree with it. If we can accept Saikia for atrocities committed by Al-Shams and Al-Badr, then we should not have a problem accepting Saikia for atrocities committed by Allied forces and that is at this point, my condition for removal of POV tag which i will add back shortly. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 14:07, 6 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Re: #3, I was in fact surprised when I saw this edit. It is not a commonly held or known view that the allied forces committed atrocities. I think multiple sources must be found to state this as if it were a fact. Otherwise, please use inline attribution of the author. - Kautilya3 (talk) 15:32, 6 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Many books here claim that Mukti Bahini themselves committed rape so that proves for at least for Mukti Bahini as for Indian Army, i have many editors who argued with me in the past that one reliable source is good enough. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 15:51, 6 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Re: #1.. Bangladesh Independence day is 26 march. The name Bangladesh embassy was used when the entitre Pakistan consulate in Kolkata defected. The government in exile was called the Government of Bangla desh. It was the name used by then Politicians, countries and media. The area of operations should be Bangladesh.Vinegarymass911 (talk) 02:11, 8 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure what's your source but let's accept that what you are telling is correct. It's still kind of a lame argument that since entire embassy in Kolkata defected and used the name Bangladesh thus we are entitled to use that name or the other reasons you are providing. It cannot take the precedence over what was the internationally recognized name of the area at that time. Please remember this is Wikipedia and it is under no obligation to use the name what one party used at that time. Please be reasonable, this is encyclopedia and we have to tell the facts to the reader without any bias. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 09:57, 8 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, from March to December, the area was both "East Pakistan" and "Bangladesh". So, it is clear that it should be written as "East Pakistan/Bangladesh". - Kautilya3 (talk) 09:04, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, the area became officially Bangladesh on 16 December 1971, before that it was East Pakistan. I can accept a little change along the lines of "places of birth" and write it like this, "East Pakistan, Pakistan (now Bangladesh)", if Bangladesh must be mentioned there. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 19:22, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can see, it was a limbo period when the Bangladeshis and Pakistanis would have opposite views of what the status was. We follow the middle road and accommodate both. If you disagree, then you can take it to WP:DRN but I doubt if the outcome there will be any different. - Kautilya3 (talk) 19:52, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We should go by what the region was called by reliable third-party sources at that time and not by what Pakistanis or Bangladeshis called it. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 22:55, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@SheriffIsInTown: these issues already enjoy consensus in Wikipedia. Don't discredit yourself by pushing baseless revisionism bordering on genocide denial. You can write an entire section on your views and place them in an article, but you cannot rewrite history. Bangladesh was recognized by several countries before 16 December 1971. I can't believe you bring this up in 2016. The area of operations should obviously refer to the 1971 Bangladesh genocide, because the Mukti Bahini was formed due to a genocide, especially the early atrocities which caused early resistance; and the entire war raged due to the genocide.

The violence by the Mukti Bahini against Urdu speaking civilians is already mentioned in the article, but anyone is welcome to make additions based on reliable sources.--Akbar the Great (talk) 08:42, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If you say something enjoys consensus, it doesn't become consensus. Is there an RFC or ARBCOM decision that 1971 genocide is an established fact and from now on, no one will challenge any edit which mentions genocide even though if that edit is unsourced. For me an established fact is that Mukti Bahini was operative during Bangladesh Liberation War now if you can support that with a source that Mukti Bahini was formed in result of that genocide then surely, go ahead and mention it.
I am happy that you accepted that Mukti Bahini committed atrocities against Urdu speaking community because you were reverting a sourced piece of text before which mentions the atrocities of Mukti Bahini. Number 3 item was about that. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 19:42, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The page was moved here, three years ago, and nobody has challenged it since. You need to think carefully whether this is the kind of battle you want to fight here on Wikipedia.

"Habib Jalib bewailed the savagery that had ravished East Pakistan. “For whom should I sing my songs of love,” he asked, when “the garden is a bloody mess,” when there were battered flower buds and blood drenched leaves everywhere despite an unstoppable rain of tears.[38] Jalib had sensed that nothing could wash away the sins of the cabal of generals who had presided over the most inglorious moment in the history of Pakistan."[1]

- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:19, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Kautilya3, I agree that Wikipedia is not a battleground but I am afraid that the battle is being waged from the other side, instead of talking to the point, we are doing aayen baayen shaayen. We are just discussing specific edits here and I am not challenging the whole concept of genocide. The sources you quoted above do not establish that Mukti was formed in result of the genocide so let's not go off topic, we put the whole concept of genocide for some other time when I am ready to check the sources on that article. ::: Note Just to be clear, when Akbar replies to me, he replies off-topic most of the time and then I have to reply in kind and the conversation derails. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 23:13, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

−

Ok, I will collapse it. @Akbar the Great: what is your response to the point #2? - Kautilya3 (talk) 23:19, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Why will you collapse it? He asked me to reference the term "Bangladesh genocide", to which that was my reply. It took you quite a while to understand the implications of Sheriff's edits, Kautilya.
I'm not sure how I can exactly respond to Point 2. Is Sheriff trying to say the early atrocities are irrelevant? These arguments have no intellectual basis whatsoever.
Laslty, forgive me for truly straying off topic here, but when have I ever been uncivil towards any of you? It is Sheriff who uses terms like "Gandu" in his edit summaries, whatever the meaning of that word is (I don't speak Hindi-Urdu tbh).--Akbar the Great (talk) 23:51, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@SheriffIsInTown: see RM June 2013 for the consensus. Whenever I tried discussing with you point wise, you would withdraw and argue that our interpretations are different. I am not the one hounding Bangladesh pages for any thing considered "anti-Pakistan" and "against the Pakistani leadership" and thus turning Wikipedia into a battlefield.--Akbar the Great (talk) 00:38, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how this answers any of the three points that Sheriff has raised. - Kautilya3 (talk) 13:35, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Akbar the Great: I am not going to answer anything which is off-topic here and an attack on my person. You should not mention anything which is not related to the edits being in question here. Your last comment only contains random allegations e.g "hounding Bangladesh pages" against me despite my good faith attempt to explain how i arrived at Bangladesh related pages here which i was under no obligation to do as Wikipedia is a medium freely available and as the current policies stand, everyone is welcomed to edit it. Basically, all this fiasco is making me even more curious to examine "Bangladesh topics" on Wikipedia and giving you a reason to contiinue with your allegations. As for number 2 item, i have changed my position regarding that since most of that content was not verifiable by the source which you added with that information. Consensus about genocide or whatever it was, when did i even question genocide here, what i am questioning is whether "Mukti Bahini" was formed in result of genocide and is verifiable by sources thus warranting it's being active during genocide or we should use a better term "Bangladesh Liberation War" for Mukti Bahini's activism! Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 00:44, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Proclamation of Bangladeshi Independence was issued on 17 April 1971 by the Provisional Government of Bangladesh, which was in essence the formal leadership of the Mukti Bahini, and one of its signatories included M A G Osmani, the Commander in Chief of Bangladesh Forces. It notes the the emergence of the resistance movement.

By April, the countryside was under the effective control of the Mukti Bahini.[2]

"Whereas instead of fulfilling its promise...Pakistan declared an unjust and treacherous war....Whereas in the conduct of a ruthless and savage war Pakistan committed and is still continuously committing numerous acts of genocide and unprecedented tortures, amongst others on the civilian and unarmed people of Bangladesh....Whereas the Pakistan Government by levying an unjust war and committing genocide and by other repressive measures made it impossible for the elected representatives of the people of Bangladesh to meet and frame a Constitution, and give to themselves a Government....Whereas the people of Bangladesh by their heroism, bravery and revolutionary fervour have established effective control over the territories of Bangladesh."

--Akbar the Great (talk) 01:32, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, Would you be kind enough to give me the page number so i can read the passage in its relative context? Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 02:46, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt you will, but the text of the proclamation can easily be googled and the reference points to Bengali control of the countryside mentioned in the first chapter of Gary Bass's book, The Blood Telegram.--Akbar the Great (talk) 07:16, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, simply searching the whole book for a text string "Pakistan declared an unjust and treacherous war" from that paragraph doesn’t find any results. Are you sure you are quoting that paragraph from the book you are referencing? Why wouldn't you provide the page number if the text is from that book?
Secondly, how does that text establish that Mukti Bahini's formation was in result of genocide? Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 17:35, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Get lost.--Akbar the Great (talk) 21:25, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That is disheartening, Akbar! Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 23:45, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not as disheartening as your stubbornness to simply accept a reference. Here's the text of the proclamation in full. And I am quoting the book on the Bangladesh Forces's control of the countryside as mentioned in the proclamation.--Akbar the Great (talk) 10:25, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What does the text of proclamation has to do with questions raised above? And may I ask why did you revert my edits and restored unsourced content and removed the sourced one? Stop the edit-warring and if you have problems with edits, raise them here! Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 05:57, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The proclamation was given to prove that the Mukti Bahini was formed due to a genocide, a fact you and User:Kautilya3 have questioned on this page.

Now look, you clearly are not a serious Wikipedia editor. Unfortunately, WP South Asia has been left to the dogs. I would love to retire but I can't unless you stop destroying 1971 articles.--Akbar the Great (talk) 06:42, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Jalal, Ayesha (2014), The Struggle for Pakistan: A Muslim Homeland and Global Politics, Harvard University Press, p. 175, ISBN 978-0-674-74499-8
  2. ^ https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=j9RongEACAAJ&dq=the+blood+telegram&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjznavG0qXKAhUGk5QKHYKoDN8Q6AEIITAA

Removal of material

Re [1]

SheriffsinTown, in the above edit you are removing large chunks of sourced text, apparently per WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. I can see how the cold war section could be trimmed, but it does provide important context and it is directly relevant. The broader context of the genocide is relevant. The fact that MB enjoyed international support is relevant. US and USSR policy is also relevant (although this is the part that could be trimmed).

Rather it seems like you're just trying to remove any mention of the genocide - which is sourced and is the mainstream scholarly view on the subject - simply because you don't like it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:43, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I changed the section title because calling it "Cold-war politics" seemed like OR. Cold war was when the superpowers used client states or forces for their own strategies. Here the situation was the reverse. India+Bangladesh and Pakistan used the cold-war antagonisms to keep both of them out. Anyway, unless there are reliable sources calling it cold-war politics, we shouldn't use the term. - Kautilya3 (talk) 19:54, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Changing the section title is fine, removing the whole section not.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:15, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Kautilya3: Your theory of keeping both of them "out" is pure WP:original research. A simple google book search shows the plethora of sources describing the Cold War dimension of the conflict: Bangladesh in 1971 and Cambodia in 1978, the emergence of Bangladesh was caught up in Cold War politics etc.--Akbar the Great (talk) 09:59, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Akbar the Great: We are not discussing the conflict itself, we are discussing one party to the conflict. There is no need to mention Cold War politics here. There are better pages for that such as Bangladesh Liberation War and 1971 Indo-Pak War. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 10:15, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) @Akbar the Great: I am sure I can produce enough reliable sources if I was writing content. But I am not. The point I want to make is that the content in the section as well as the sources you exhibit now do not support a section title called "Cold war politics." The conflict was essentially a South Asian one, it wasn't global. If it was indeed part of "Cold war politics," then a book on Cold war politics would discuss this conflict in detail. - Kautilya3 (talk) 10:26, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@SheriffIsInTown: I was replying to Kautilya's suggestion that the term "Cold War politics" in the context of the Bangladesh Liberation War is original research. You also need to understand that the section as a whole is relevant to the page of a key wartime player like the Mukti Bahini.
@Kautilya3: How many articles have you created so far on international affairs and military history? I know you've created a lot of redirects and pages like the Hindu Helpline. It being a South Asian conflict does not minus out the Cold War dimension. India was an ally of the Soviet Union, whose Security Council veto helped Bangladesh-India Allied Forces to win the war. Communist China replaced Taiwan on the Security Council that year and used its first ever veto in favor of Pakistan. And the Bangladeshis enjoyed a significant international humanitarian movement in their support, which became an issue in US domestic politics, with Kennedy's denunciations of Nixon in Congress. You asked if there was a book on the Cold War politics of the war, well there are actually several. The two most recent being this [http://www.amazon.com/1971-Global-History-Creation-Bangladesh/dp/0674728645 one] and [http://www.amazon.com/The-Blood-Telegram-Gary-Bass/dp/0307744620/ref=pd_sim_14_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=51%2BcUvOGl1L&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR104%2C160_&refRID=1PA0M811VXVY5BDXNMGG this].--Akbar the Great (talk) 11:22, 19 January 2016 (UTC).[reply]
@Kautilya3: I agree international reaction is better than cold war politics.@SheriffIsInTown: why are you removing citation on post war benefits to Mukti Bahini and Ted Kennedy picture. Also International reaction needs be reduced here but not completely removed.Vinegarymass911 (talk) 11:28, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's actually been reduced. It's fine in its current state, including the current title by Kautilya.--Akbar the Great (talk) 11:36, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Vinegarymass911 et al: Kennedy's picture on its own as a portrait is not relevant but if you have his picture with Indira Gandhi or with Mujib or with activists of Mukti Bahini (because they are the article subject), that would be more relevant. Its not necessary for every section to have a picture in it. Kennedy's picture like this, gives a wrong impression that he was a supporter of Mukti Bahini. As for benefits for freedom fighters, I don't think that's very much encyclopedic. We cannot just add every thing for which we find a source. Do we have a source for Yahya poster that its in fact a poster used during liberation and not something drawn by some body years after the liberation? If we have a source, still we don't want to have two pictures back to back in the same section. I think we should move it to July-November because that section does discuss something about Pakistan, others don't. Area of operation should only include areas of operation and nothing else, there is a field for timeline called "active" and lists from/to dates for organization's activity. That's a WP:OR to categorize their activity without supporting it with sources. @Volunteer Marek: et al: I have reviewed WP:WEASEL and WP:ALLEGED and I think they actually support my point of view on including the reference to Kennedy's India visit regarding his statement about genocide. Naval operation, there are four sources currently in there, Banglapedia is dedicated to Bangladesh and I don't think can carry an NPOV, The Daily Star, interview with WP:PRIMARY boasting and bragging about his achievements. Two other sources do not mention number of vessels drowned so I suggest we take out the number from that sentence. International relations, majority point of view not to remove it completely but trim it so supporting the trimming instead of complete removal although I consider the whole section irrelevant. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 13:40, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

International reactions

@Volunteer Marek: I don't see how the information in "International reactions" section is relevant to Mukti Bahini as there is no international reaction directly related to Mukti Bahini, yes, it might be related to overall Bangladesh Liberation War and there is a separate article for that and that information should be moved to that article if it's not already there, if its already there then it doesn't need to be mentioned in multiple places. As for the role of wife of one of the commanders in Operation Jackpot, it is directly mentioned in the source and the source gives a great credit to that woman that if it was not for her going with commanders so that Pakistani soldiers let them pass through the check posts only because of her being with them, the operation wouldn't have been a success. I think that fact needs to be mentioned and please clearly see what you reverted, it doesn't have "hiding behind a woman" wording as your summary implies. As for Ted Kennedy's genocide accusation, the source does not mention it as accusation, it clearly says that he thought a genocide was happening on last day of his visit to India. By removing the reference to his India visit and changing it to "he accused Pakistan of committing genocide", actually you are putting POV instead of me. We should state the facts as sources state them and not describe them otherwise. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 20:17, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said, it's possible to trim that section, but there's no reason to remove directly pertinent information, particularly the stuff about international support and the context of genocide in Bangladesh. The "women story" possibly - if confirmed by other sources - belongs in an article on the Operation itself, not here. And as far as the Kennedy thing here goes, see WP:WEASEL and WP:ALLEGED.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:35, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Volunteer Marek: So, since you think that "International reactions" section can be trimmed, how about you trim it instead of restoring the whole thing, especially I think last paragraph do not belong in this article, it doesn't even belong in Bangladesh Liberation War. It is more related to 1971 Indo-Pak War. The "women story", I agree in part with you that it should go to Operation Jackpot but I don't agree the part about multiple sources. If we can glorify on one source then why cannot we use one source for the material which puts a slightly negative light. I never read WP:WEASEL and WP:ALLEGED before and it really takes time to read these policies but I don't think why they will prohibit putting things in their proper perspective. It wouldn't be an NPOV article if we do not mention Kennedy's Indian visit as an aspect on his belief about genocide.
Let me touch upon the content that I didn't mention in my previous message. The first sentence under "Relations with India" reads that "genocide was the sole cause for 10 million refugees" but the source does not say that. It was a multi-faceted conflict, there was an Indo-Pak War and there were atrocities by Mukti as well, collectively, all of this was responsible for exodus.
Under Naval section, there is a content about drowning of 26 Pakistani vessels which is solely relying on a source from Banglapedia but I don't think Banglapedia is a reliable third-party source, it's like sourcing to another Wikipedia article. Since the claim is extraordinary, it should be removed until it can be proven by a third-party reliable source. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 21:30, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I removed that last paragraph of the section as it did go into too much detail about the general conflict and strayed off topic. I do think it's important that there is some discussion of the international context though, so keeping the rest.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:35, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As to the Naval section - it would probably be best if we could find further sources to corroborate the text, but you shouldn't assume that Banglapedia isn't automatically reliable. For now we have the "better sources needed" tag. I'll look for other sources, if the info is not found in other sources then I'll be fine with it being removed.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:38, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding Banglapedia, I don't think you understand it. Its not done by volunteers like Wikipedia but by paid academics and scholars. It had a budget of roughly one million dollars. It is viewed as reliable in WikiProject Bangladesh.Vinegarymass911 (talk) 21:41, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, I know that. But it *can* be perceived as a biased (though still reliable) source and it's also a tertiary source, so a second source to corroborate it would just settle the matter and end any kind of excuse making for removal. From what I can see, lots of sources discuss the attack on Pakistani ships by MB on 14 August, although I can't find a second source for the specific number of 26 ships.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:47, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Edit dispute (12 February 2016)

Anyone is welcomed to contest the following points regarding this edit dispute:

  1. Flag of Bangladesh in 1971, used during revolution: The whole statement needs to be sourced, first that the flag is same which was used during 1971 then it was used during revolution. The term revolution needs to be sourced in relation with event of 1971.
  2. Area of operation: That field is for mentioning the area of operation and not the timeline, "active" field is for the timeline and it mentions proper timeline in format of month and year. It has been my position since beginning of these disputes and i am maintaining that.
  3. Ted Kennedy was in India, he met Indira and then he gave the statement about genocide. That is the perspective of his statement and it needs to be mentioned.
  4. Number of vessels drowned are sourced with a WP:PRIMARY source. We should drop the number since it's doubtful.
  5. Yahya poster needs to be sourced, first that there was a poster displaying him as demon, then it's the same poster.
  6. The source does not say that reason for 10 million refugees was genocide, it was multi-faceted conflict and there were multitude of reasons.
  7. Finally, what does following statements have to do with Mukti Bahini, nothing whatsoever:

    The Nixon administration in the US enjoyed close ties with Pakistani military junta due to its policy of rapprochement with Communist China after the Sino-Soviet split. Pakistan's dictator Yahya Khan acted as a mediator between the US and China. However, Washington knew that the independence of East Pakistan was inevitable.

    and

    Separately, US efforts to woo China through Pakistan led to India signing friendship treaty with Moscow in August 1971. For India, the treaty was an important insurance policy against a possible Chinese intervention on the side of Pakistan. China had fought a brief war with India in 1962. Both the US and China, however, ultimately failed to mobilize adequate support for Pakistan.

    Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 19:04, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
[2].Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:23, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As i said that section does not address all the points mentioned here and how can you claim that there was consensus when only editor involved in addition to us both talks about Banglapedia as a source? Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 20:34, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Banglapedia is a source, in fact a reliable one. Which you'd know if you bothered to read that discussion. The points have been addressed enough. You can keep stonewalling (or pretending that you're not actually trying to remove the word "genocide" from the article) but I don't really feel like having my time wasted, so unless you've got something new, we stick with existing consensus.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:10, 13 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As i explained earlier, there was no existing consensus and moreover you cannot pretend that someone is just trying to remove the word "genocide" to remove the word "genocide". The word "genocide" is mentioned 8 times in the article. I am removing the one instance or couple maybe where it is being used out of context and sources do not support it in that context. You do not need to mention it in every paragraph. Read WP:CONSENSUS, you must address the objections being raised as part of the discussion and not just claim that something is against consensus. Wikipedia:Don't revert due solely to "no consensus" should be a good read for you. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 18:37, 16 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Majority opinion was against you and still remains against you.
  1. Flag of Bangladesh is sourced
  2. Agree on Ted kennedy.
  3. Okay with Dropping number
  4. Yahya poster is sourced
  5. Oppose you attempt to Remove Genocide
  6. India was worried about a second front with China because China-Pakistan relations. After the soviet treaty India increased support for Mukti Bahini . This sections gives us background information about Indian support to the Mukti Bahini.
  7. you are changing things that you have not raised in the talk page. Vinegarymass911 (talk) 23:17, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Majority opinion does not mean a "consensus" and even if there is a consensus, you cannot just include some unsourced text saying since we 10 people agree on this thus we are including it. WP:STATUSQUO cannot be clearly determied since this is a long standing dispute. Things were added by Akbar the Great, they were removed by me so the status quo would be before the edits of Akbar the Great. Flag and poster are not a conflict anymore. Just saying "oppose you attempt to remove genocide" does not mean anything as i am only trying to remove what is unsourced. I suggest you go through the source and quote the text which you think attributes the statement in the article. As stated, the following text does not provide any background to "Mukti Bahini" as a military entity:
Following is irrelevant and none of the sources say that these events are a background to the creation on "Mukti Bahini", almost exactly the same text is included at Bangladesh#East Pakistan, why is it necessary to include here as well while it is not proven by a source that these events are actually behind creation of Mukti Bahini:
  • The central government of Pakistan was blamed for the slow response and misuse of funds. It created resentment in the population of East Pakistan. The resentment allowed Awami League to win 160 of the 162 parliamentary seats allocated to East Pakistan which made Awami League the majority party in the 300 seat parliament of Pakistan.
  • Text about Kennedy's visit to India before issuing his statement about genocide is sourced then what is your reason for removal.
Statements not supported by a source
  1. The statement in the area column "during the 1971 Bangladesh genocide and War of Independence"
  2. The text "The genocide by Pakistani forces led to the emigration of 10 million Bengali refugees into neighbouring India" is not supported by this source (and there is not even a mention of genocide on page 28 of that book)[1] thus it should simply be changed to "There was an emigration of 10 million Bengali refugees into neighbouring India" until it can be supported by a source.

References

  1. ^ Datta, Antara (2012). Refugees and borders in South Asia : the great exodus of 1971. New York: Routledge. p. 28. ISBN 9780415524728.

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Recent edits/unexplained modification of sourced content

Vaza12, you say that a certain type of info may not be suitable for this article, whereas that may be agreeable after discussion, but then you are modifying way more than what you are claiming [3], [4], [5], [6]. Especially, edits like these are POV edits where you are modifying content not said by the source. Also, you have given no explanation for your subsequent edits whatsoever. So, instead of initiating an edit-war, discuss the issue and gain consensus for you edits as they are not WP:NPOV.—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡  ʞlɐʇ 19:54, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I see nothing factually wrong with any of the revisions you've shown. Doesn't amount to anything serious.--Vaza12 (talk) 20:02, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's (un)fortunate that WP is a community and is build by various members of this community, so what you 'alone' see does not really matter. So, once again, please discuss your edits - all of them, as this topic area is subject to discretionary sanctions and I see that you have been alerted about them already a few months back. Lastly, your attitude tells me that you are not in the mood of listening to others views, and this can be serious trouble. Your edits alone are revertable on the pretext of "unexplained modification of sourced content". So, discuss and/or gain consensus.—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡  ʞlɐʇ 20:16, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
With all due respect, I am not keen to make this a WP:BATTLEGROUND. What exactly are you finding fault here, please elaborate. Do you want to insert East Pakistan back in that sentence? Then go ahead and do it then. What else do you find problematic? Manekshaw's picture? I put that one there since the surrender image is all over Wikipedia, but the field marshal was the chief architect of the campaign and deserves to be highlighted here.--Vaza12 (talk) 20:30, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry, I have made myself clear as to what the issue is with your edits, twice. Once in the edit-summary and then by opening this discussion and explaining what the issue was. You are making the changes, which are being challenged, especially as this is a 'hot' topic area, you need to gain consensus for your edits BEFORE you actually go for them. Please, read WP:BRD for more info. Till you you that, the article goes back to its pre-modification state.—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡  ʞlɐʇ 20:36, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Only you are finding fault in the changes, but you are not giving any factual evidence as to why. I also can't see how any of it is controversial. Please don't start an edit war. Bangladeshis do not harm your country's articles. So when there is nothing controversial, please don't be disruptive.--Vaza12 (talk) 20:41, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is actually funny that you accuse me, who is asking you over and again to discuss your edits, of edit-warring and being disruptive. I see that you are well aware of WP policies. But still, read WP:CON and avoid casting WP:ASPERSION. Again, for the third time:-
  • Your edits are modifying sourced content which have a long-standing consensus of WP community without any discussion at the talk page.
  • Your edits does not contain any explanation/justification either.
  • You are also changing the content to a specific kind of wording which is not considered neutral.
  • Your edits are POV as the changes you made were not what the sources attached to it were saying.
  • Moreover, your edit history shows that you are only interested in editing a single topic area i.e. you are likely an WP:SPA.
So, before you modify an article which is under DS, you need to TALK. Do that, or else the next stop shall be at ANI. Thanks.—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡  ʞlɐʇ 21:06, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just to make this clear, removing large chunks of sourced text from an article using vague/misleading edit summaries is not an improvement of the article or constructive editing by any means. Especially on contentious topics like this one. Please use the talk page to discuss each issue. TripWire's concerns are entirely valid. Mar4d (talk) 05:33, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it seems the page is contentious to only a handful of people. To start with, the lede makes a wrong claim that everything started on 25 March 1971 (the Sheikh Mujibur Rahman speech on 7 March caused demonstrations; 25 March was when the army began operations leading to the arrest of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, that triggered the war). Then if you look at the background section, mentioning Perso-Arabic script and Rabindranath songs seems very irrelevant. There are other issues as well. I gave specific edit summaries and I am sure a consensus will normally be gained if article wasn't hijacked.--Vaza12 (talk) 10:27, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good start but you still are displaying WP:DISRUPTSIGNS. Your actual edits at the article and what you are discussing here are two different issues. Please focus Also, you have failed to provide any sources or evidence for your claims. Please see that per WP:BURDEN it is you who has to WP:VERIFY and convince others. The changes you have made are large and hence each of them needs to be discussed separately which, at the moment, you dont seem inclined to. Lastly, I will suggest that you go through WP:REHASH and WP:CRUSH before you resume editing the article.—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡  ʞlɐʇ 11:32, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Look at you. Trying to make sense with Wikipedia's policies. Hah. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to deal with an earthquake in Myanmar, while the handful of you can carry on finding 'contentious' and 'hot' topics over settled issues.--Vaza12 (talk) 12:08, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is the second time that you are personally attacking an editor. This leaves no doubt in my mind that you are not here to build WP but to push a specific WP:AGENDA. Whereas you claim to know more but your comments dont agree with that. Goodluck and godspeed with the rescue effort.—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡  ʞlɐʇ 12:20, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Disruptive editing

Vaza12, I hope you did well with your commitment in Myanmar, and it seems that you are back. However, you are right back to the same disruptive editing with edits like these [7] [8] where you are removing sourved content. You say that the source does not support the content but I wonder why couldnt you see that the second source precisely talks about the role of the Provisional government. As pointed out earlier, this clearly shows that you are here to push a specific WP:AGENDA, and you have not been inclined to discuss the content but the editors, I will leave this to the Admins to deal with. Pinging @RegentsPark:.—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡  ʞlɐʇ 12:19, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oh my god. All I'm saying is that you either use East Pakistan or Bangladesh. I placed East Pakistan, because it makes more sense in relation to the Mukti Bahini's resistance movement. My objection is to the use of "Provisional Bangladesh". What on earth does that mean? I cannot find a single source which supports the term "Provisional Bangladesh". That's all.--Vaza12 (talk) 12:44, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Provisional Bangladesh" is being used to describe the identity professed by the Provisional Government of Bangladesh. It is perfectly clear what it means. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:53, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, the dispute is about"Area of operations", which can only refer to Pakistan-occupied territories, or East Pakistan. The provisional government was based in Calcutta for heaven's sake.--Vaza12 (talk) 12:57, 1 September 2016 (UTC−
Sir, as mentioned earlier you need to support your objections with logic, which you aren't doing. Shouting out your objections won't matter at this community based project. And you may read the related article on Provisional Bangladesh if you dont understand the term. Lastly, the term is supported by the citations given inline. Independence was declared beforw the war and that's what some sources like to use when referring to East Pakistan in the context of post-war secenerio. But the main problem here is that on one hand you like ti replace East Pakistan with Bangladesh as you did here as it suited yout POV, but then you want to remove any reference to the same by outrightly denying the existence of Provisional Bangladesh even though the sources clearly support it.—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡  ʞlɐʇ 13:08, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully sir, we are speaking of territory, not governments. This is about Area of Operations. If you followed the standard of Wikipedia, you would have used "Pakistan-occupied Bangladesh". But since the topic is too contentious for India and Pakistan (and surprisingly not Bangladesh), we have to be sensitive to their concerns. Provisional Bangladesh sounds like downright OR.--Vaza12 (talk) 13:18, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think you all need to consider WP:COMMONNAME on this matter. If you look at Yugoslav Partisans, it says "Axis-occupied Yugoslavia". In Viet Cong, it uses the terms Indochina and South Vietnam. Provisional Bangladesh is not common name.--Vaza12 (talk) 13:44, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Though your reasoning that there has to be a common name or that that sources are incorrect does not carry weight, but I do agree with removing Provisional Bangladesh from the Area of Operation in the infobox. I think, Kautilya3 will agree too. However, we need to be careful regarding the generic use of this term elsewhere in the article.—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡  ʞlɐʇ 17:06, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think what we really needed is an "allegiance" field, which is absent for some reason. I don't know if "partof" is meant to be used this way, but I think it clarifies the fact that there was a civilian authority at the top. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:09, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Area of Operations in military terms, in my understanding would nean the theater of war where the combat was generally taking place or where a particular force, in this case the MB were operating. The 'part of', which I think you correctly moved up conveys the correct meaning that this force (MB) which was part of/had allegiance with Provisional Govt of Bangladesh was active in East Pakistan (the area of its operations).—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡  ʞlɐʇ 17:31, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect citations

Ref this fictitious citation and another Vaza, please stop adding fake sources. The one added for French says totally a different thing from what the content is and the second for Viet Cong is not mentioned in the given source. Advice: google search wont help here.—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡  ʞlɐʇ 17:54, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am trying by best to stay calm in the face of all of this WP:BULLYING and WP:OWN attitudes. I'll cite the pages on those books.--Vaza12 (talk) 18:02, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sir, I know how to search books. The book sources that you added DOES NOT contain anything to support the claim. I would urge you to present your sources here before readding them or this goes to ANI.—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡  ʞlɐʇ 18:13, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Kautilya3:, I'm quoting the text.

Yet it was the Viet Cong which organized themselves into a united and indomitable army. They, like us, were a people's army.

A resistance movement- like the maquis in France during the Second World War- lacks the political and demographic base necessary for mobilisation of manpower and resources to convert from clandestine to open warfare. Although the national motivation in Bangla Desh was almost total, the ranks of the Mukti Bahini were filled not so much from a people's base as by intellectuals, students and middle classes.

[9][10]
These statements qualify as legitimate comparisons.--Vaza12 (talk) 18:31, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Vaza, again, just by giving page numbers to the book sources you cannot fake the citations. Both the citations which you have given with page numbers are incorrect. The first source, The Lightning Campaign: The Indo-Pakistan War, 1971, that you gave says the following:

It must be realised that the insurgency in Bangla Desh was not a “revolutionary war’’ but a “resistance movement”. A revolutionary war has the character and potential to develop from low-key hit-and-run operations to large-scale guerilla offensives and eventually to conventional warfare, to defeat the enemy. A resistance movement—like the maquis in France during the Second World War—lacks the political and demographic base necessary for the mobilisation of manpower and resources to convert from clandestine to open warfare.

Now, how on earth can you cite the above to support "The Mukti Bahini has been compared with the French Resistance"??

And a query for "Viet Cong" in the second source, Bullets of '71: A Freedom Fighter's Story, results into ZERO results!! What are you upto? Please self-revert or I will have to request an Admin to intervene.—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡  ʞlɐʇ 18:37, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Better get a third party to come here. I don't have time for a battle with you. I'll reserve my comments on your apparent technical inability to read sources.--Vaza12 (talk) 18:42, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. But you should atleast read WP:FAKE which say the following about your WP:FICTREF citations:
  • 2-Off-web references that do exist, but the meaning of the source text differs significantly from the information claimed by an editor (editors can summarize what a source says, but the meaning cannot be changed)
  • 3-Off-web references that do exist, but the book or journal makes no reference to the topic referred to in the article
The essay further define these kind of citations as following:
The most dangerous types of fictitious references are types 2 and 3. With type 2, an editor with POV can change the intended meaning of the content that is purportedly sourced from the book or magazine. This corruption of the source's intended meaning may stay in Wikipedia until someone can check the original book or magazine. Whereas type number 2 is used for adding POV, type number 3 can be used to introduce hoaxes and other false material into the encyclopedia.
I dont know if it is due to your misunderstanding of the source or a deliberate act to push POV, I will leave this for other editors to see. @Kautilya3: for his input.—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡  ʞlɐʇ 19:49, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Both of you, please calm down a little, assume good faith, and focus on the content issues.

I am not an expert on military matters, but the comparison to the French resistance seems reasonable. See this reference, for example. The Indian Army people seem to make this comparison seriously because, from their point of view, Mukti Bahini was like the French resistance, weakening the Pakistani effectiveness.

The Nabi source is too weak. It is a WP:PRIMARY source and it is essentially self-published. This reference says that the comparison with Vietcong is no good. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:16, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Look a comparison doesn't have to be good. The comparison itself is notable. The Mukti Bahini certainly did not match the Viet Cong in effectiveness. But I'm sure the sentence in this article has been placed to convey the populist nature of the force, just like the Viet Cong. Both were guerrilla movements, unlike a conventional armed force.--Vaza12 (talk) 21:37, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The problem here is that the text inside the article gives a false meaning so as to 'praise' the MB which infact the sources being provided does not support. MB was indeed a guerrilla movement, but that does not mean it gets compared by every guerrilla movement around the world especially when WP:UNDUE weight is being attached to it in terms of their effectiveness. The source provided by Kautilya makes a mere comparison with the French resistance in the context that both movements "contributed towards the liberation of their countries". Hence, if the text is to stay in the article it has to be reworded accordingly/per the source so that no false/exaggerated meanings are presented to the reader. As regards the Viet Congs, none of the source supports it so I doubt it should have a place here. Same goes for the comparison with Yugoslav Partisans. This isnt rocket science, believe me.—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡  ʞlɐʇ 21:47, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Calling legitimate comparisons undue is unfair from an encyclopedic standpoint. Its limited effectiveness compared to the Viet Cong has been discussed in many sources, and there were reasons for that. It in itself claimed to be like the Viet Cong, so it definitely has some place here. The Viet Cong also has relevance because of similar terrain and tactics employed. In fact an entire section should be devoted to its comparison with other guerrilla movements. Anyways, I suggest a third party reword the sentence if necessary.--Vaza12 (talk) 22:03, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Read WP:OR, and then read it again. Thanks—TripWire ︢ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︢ ︡ ︡ ︢ ︡  ʞlɐʇ 22:11, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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