Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Speedy
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Speedy renaming or speedy merging of categories may be requested only if they meet a speedy criterion, for example WP:C2D (consistency with main article's name) or WP:C2C (consistency with established category tree names). Please see instructions below.
- Determine which speedy criterion applies
- Tag category page with
{{subst:cfr-speedy|New name}}
or{{subst:cfm-speedy|Merge target}}
- List request along with speedy criteria reason under "Current requests" below on this page
Please note that a speedy request must state which of the narrowly defined criteria strictly applies. Hence, any other non-speedy criteria, even "common sense" or "obvious", may be suitable points, but only at a full discussion at WP:Categories for discussion.
Request may take 48 hours to process after listing if there are no objections. This delay allows other users to review the request to ensure that it meets the speedy criteria for speedy renaming or merging, and to raise objections to the proposed change.
Categories that qualify for speedy deletion (per Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion, e.g., "patent nonsense", "recreation") can be tagged with the regular speedy tags, such as {{db|reason}}
with no required delay. Empty categories can be deleted if they remain empty 7 days after tagging with {{db-empty}}. Renaming under C2E may also be processed instantly (at the discretion of an administrator) as it is a variation on G7.
To oppose a speedy request you must record your objection within 48 hours of the nomination. Do this by inserting immediately under the nomination:
- Oppose, (the reasons for your objection). ~~~~
You will not be able to do this by editing the page WP:Categories for discussion. Instead, you should edit the section WP:Categories for discussion#Add requests for speedy renaming and merging here or the page WP:Categories for discussion/Speedy#Add requests for speedy renaming and merging here (WP:CFDS). Be aware that in the course of any discussion, the nomination and its discussion may get moved further down the page purely for organizational convenience – you may need to search WP:CFDS to find the new location. Participate in any ongoing discussion, but unless you withdraw your opposition, a knowledgeable person may eventually bring forward the nomination and discussion to become a regular CFD discussion. At that stage you may add further comments, but your initial opposition will still be considered. However, if after seven days there has been no support for the request, and no response from the nominator, the request may be dropped from further consideration as a speedy.
Contested speedy requests become stale, and can be untagged and delisted after 7 days of inactivity. Optionally, if the discussion may be useful for future reference, it may be copied to the category talk page, with a section heading and {{moved discussion from|[[WP:CFDS]]|2=~~~~}}
. If the nominator wants to revive the process, this may be requested at WP:Categories for discussion (CfD) in accordance with its instructions.
If you belatedly notice and want to oppose a speedy move that has already been processed, contact one of the admins who process the Speedy page. If your objection seems valid, they may reverse the move, or start a full CFD discussion.
Speedy criteria
The category-specific criteria for speedy renaming, or merging are strictly limited to:
C2A: Typographic and spelling fixes
- Correction of spelling errors and capitalization fixes. Differences between British and American spelling (e.g. Harbours → Harbors) are not considered errors; however if the convention of the relevant category tree is to use one form over the other then a rename may be appropriate under C2C. If both spellings exist as otherwise-identical category names, they should be merged.
- Appropriate conversion of hyphens into en dashes or vice versa (e.g. Category:Canada-Russia relations → Category:Canada–Russia relations).
- Correction of obvious grammatical errors, such as a missing conjunction (e.g. Individual frogs toads → Individual frogs and toads). This includes pluralizing a noun in the name of a set category, but not when disagreement might reasonably be anticipated as to whether the category is a topic or set category.
C2B: Consistency with established Wikipedia naming conventions and practices
- Expanding abbreviated country names (e.g. U.S. → United States).
- Disambiguation fixes from an unqualified name (e.g. Category:Washington → Category:Washington (state) or Category:Washington, D.C.).
C2C: Consistency with established category tree names
Bringing a category into line with established naming conventions for that category tree, or into line with the various "x by y", "x of y", or "x in y" categorization conventions specified at Wikipedia:Category names
- This should be used only where there is no room for doubt that the category in question is being used for the standard purpose instead of being a potential subcategory.
- This criterion should be applied only when there is no ambiguity or doubt over the existence of a category naming convention. Such a convention must be well defined and must be overwhelmingly used within the tree. If this is not the case then the category in question must be brought forward to a full Cfd nomination.
- This criterion will not apply in cases where the category tree observes distinctions in local usage (e.g. Category:Transportation in the United States and Category:Transport in the United Kingdom).
C2D: Consistency with main article's name
- Renaming a topic category to match its eponymous page (e.g. Category:The Beatles and The Beatles).
- This applies only if the related page's current name (and by extension, the proposed name for the category) is:
- unambiguous (so it generally does not apply to proposals to remove a disambiguator from the category name, even when the main article is the primary topic of its name, i.e. it does not contain a disambiguator); and
- uncontroversial, either because of longstanding stability at that particular name, or because the page was just moved (i) after a page move discussion resulted in explicit consensus to rename, or (ii) unilaterally to reflect an official renaming which is verified by one or more citations (provided in the nomination). C2D does not apply if the result would be contrary to guidelines at WP:CATNAME, or there is any ongoing discussion about the name of the page or category, or there has been a recent discussion concerning any of the pages that resulted in a no consensus result, or it is controversial in some other way.
- This criterion may also be used to rename a set category in the same circumstances, where the set is defined by a renamed topic; e.g. players for a sports team, or places in a district.
- Before nominating a category to be renamed per WP:C2D, consider whether it makes more sense to move the article instead of the category.
C2E: Author request
- This criterion applies only if the author of a category requests or agrees to renaming within six months of creating the category.
- The criterion does not apply if other editors have populated or changed the category since it was created. "Other editors" includes bots that populated the category, but excludes an editor working with the author on the renaming.
C2F: One eponymous page
- This criterion applies if the category contains only an eponymous article, list, template or media file, provided that the category has not otherwise been emptied shortly before the nomination. The default outcome is an upmerge to the parent categories, where applicable. Nominations should use
{{subst:cfm-speedy}}
(speedy merger) linking to a suitable parent category, or to another appropriate category (e.g. one that is currently on the article).
Admin instructions
When handling the listings:
- Make sure that the listing meets one of the above criteria.
- With the exception of C2E, make sure that it was both listed and tagged at least 48 hours previously.
- Make sure that there is no opposition to the listing; if there is a discussion, check if the opposing user(s) ended up withdrawing their opposition.
If the listing meets these criteria, simply have the category renamed or merged – follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Administrator instructions, in the section "If the decision is to Rename, Merge, or Delete"; to list it for the bots, use the Speedy moves section.
Applying speedy criteria in full discussions
- A nomination to merge or rename, brought forward as a full CfD, may be speedily closed if the closing administrator is satisfied that:
- The nomination clearly falls within the scope of one of the criteria listed here, and
- No objections have been made within 48 hours of the initial nomination.
- If both these conditions are satisfied, the closure will be regarded as having been a result of a speedy nomination. If any objections have been raised then the CfD nomination will remain in place for the usual 7-day discussion period, to be decided in accordance with expressed consensus.
Add requests for speedy renaming and merging here
If the category and desired change do not match one of the criteria mentioned in C2, do not list it here. Instead, list it in the main CFD section.
If you are in any doubt as to whether it qualifies, do not list it here.
Use the following format on a new line at the beginning of the list:
* [[:Category:old name]] to [[:Category:new name]] – Reason ~~~~
(The four ~ will sign and datestamp the entry automatically.)
If the current name should be redirected rather than deleted, use:
* REDIRECT [[:Category:old name]] to [[:Category:new name]] – Reason ~~~~
To note that human action is required, e.g. updating a template that populates the category, use:
* NO BOTS [[:Category:old name]] to [[:Category:new name]] – Reason ~~~~
Remember to tag the category page with: {{subst:cfr-speedy|New name}}
A request may be completed if it is more than 48 hours old; that is, if the time stamp shown is earlier than 07:26, 24 August 2024 (UTC). Currently, there are 580 open requests (. )
![]() | Administrators and page movers: Do not use the "Move" tab to move categories listed here!Categories are processed following the 48-hour waiting period and are moved by a bot. |
Current requests
Please add new requests at the top of the list, preferably with a link to the parent category (in case of C2C) or relevant article (in case of C2D).
- Category:Category:Films directed by Imai Tadashi to Category:Films directed by Tadashi Imai - C2D - The parent article has been stable at "Tadashi Imai" WhisperToMe (talk) 22:15, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Phi Beta Sigma Brothers to Category:Phi Beta Sigma members – C2C: Even the list this category links to is "List of Phi Beta Sigma members." Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 20:03, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:VJs (media personalities) by nationality to Category:Video jockeys by nationality - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:American VJs (media personalities) to Category:American video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Australian VJs (media personalities) to Category:Australian video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Belgian VJs (media personalities) to Category:Belgian video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Brazilian VJs (media personalities) to Category:Brazilian video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:British VJs (media personalities) to Category:British video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Canadian VJs (media personalities) to Category:Canadian video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Chinese VJs (media personalities) to Category:Chinese video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Dutch VJs (media personalities) to Category:Dutch video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:English VJs (media personalities) to Category:English video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Filipino VJs (media personalities) to Category:Filipino video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:German VJs (media personalities) to Category:German video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Indian VJs (media personalities) to Category:Indian video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Irish VJs (media personalities) to Category:Irish video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Indonesian VJs (media personalities) to Category:Indonesian video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Israeli VJs (media personalities) to Category:Israeli video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Italian VJs (media personalities) to Category:Italian video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Japanese VJs (media personalities) to Category:Japanese video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Pakistani VJs (media personalities) to Category:Pakistani video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Russian VJs (media personalities) to Category:Russian video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:South Korean VJs (media personalities) to Category:South Korean video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Spanish VJs (media personalities) to Category:Spanish video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Thai VJs (media personalities) to Category:Thai video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Turkish VJs (media personalities) to Category:Turkish video jockeys - C2C: Consistency with parent Category:Video jockeys (which was recently C2D moved). — MarkH21talk 19:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Rwandan women's football clubs to Category:Women's football clubs in Rwanda – C2C: Named against convention Crowsus (talk) 16:50, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Liberian women's football clubs to Category:Women's football clubs in Liberia – C2C: Named against convention Crowsus (talk) 16:50, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Statues in the United States by city to Category:Statues in the United States by populated place – C2C. Omnis Scientia (talk) 14:02, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Equestrian statues in the United States by city to Category:Equestrian statues in the United States by populated place – C2C. Omnis Scientia (talk) 14:02, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:People from Komsomolske, Donetsk Oblast to Category:People from Kalmiuske – C2D: main article Kalmiuske. Aldij (talk) 12:54, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:2022–23 Primera División RFEF to Category:2022–23 Primera Federación – C2A: League and related article were re-named in 2022 Crowsus (talk) 02:42, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:French Communist writers to Category:French communist writers – C2A. Mason (talk) 02:36, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Indian Communist writers to Category:Indian communist writers – C2A. Mason (talk) 02:36, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Pakistani Communist writers to Category:Pakistani communist writers – C2A. Mason (talk) 02:35, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:British Communist writers to Category:British communist writers – C2A. Mason (talk) 02:31, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Russian Communist writers to Category:Russian communist writers – C2A. Mason (talk) 02:28, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Russian Communist poets to Category:Russian communist poets – C2A. Mason (talk) 02:27, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Spanish Communist writers to Category:Spanish communist writers – C2A. Mason (talk) 02:27, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Spanish Communist poets to Category:Spanish communist poets – C2A. Mason (talk) 02:27, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:British Communist poets to Category:British communist poets – C2A. Mason (talk) 02:26, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Pakistani Communist poets to Category:Pakistani communist poets – C2A. Mason (talk) 02:26, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Indian Communist poets to Category:Indian communist poets – C2A. Mason (talk) 02:26, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:German Communist writers to Category:German communist writers – C2A. Mason (talk) 02:25, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:German Communist poets to Category:German communist poets – C2A. Mason (talk) 02:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:French Communist poets to Category:French communist poets – C2A. Mason (talk) 02:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Salvadoran Communist poets to Category:Salvadoran communist poets – C2A. Mason (talk) 02:23, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Salvadoran Communist writers to Category:Salvadoran communist writers – C2A. Mason (talk) 02:22, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Czech Communist poets to Category:Czech communist poets – C2A. Mason (talk) 02:22, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Czech Communist writers to Category:Czech communist writers – C2A. Mason (talk) 02:22, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Brazilian Communist writers to Category:Brazilian communist writers – C2A: parent is Brazilian communists Mason (talk) 02:22, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:2022–23 Segunda División RFEF to Category:2022–23 Segunda Federación – C2D: league and related article were re-named in 2022 Crowsus (talk) 01:29, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:2023–24 Segunda División RFEF to Category:2023–24 Segunda Federación – C2D: league and related article were re-named in 2022 Crowsus (talk) 01:28, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Chaipersons of the Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux Community to Category:Chairpersons of the Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux Community – C2A. Mason (talk) 22:51, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Battles by war and country to Category:Battles by war and country involved – C2C: Parent Category:Battles by country involved. NLeeuw (talk) 22:38, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Lists of wars by country to Category:Lists of wars by country involved – C2C: Parent Category:Wars by country involved. NLeeuw (talk) 21:29, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Lists of Bell aircraft operators to Category:Lists of Textron aircraft operators – C2F. Mason (talk) 05:04, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:19th-century architecture in Turkey to Category:19th-century architecture in the Ottoman Empire – C2C: norm is that this nation is called ottoman empire Mason (talk) 02:43, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Smasongarrison: unfortunately the entire 19th-century architecture by country tree is by 21st-century countries and so are the subcategories. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:34, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- gotcha! Move to full? Mason (talk) 12:32, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Smasongarrison: moving it to full will be a brave act. Be ready for opposition, other editors will argue that buildings are currently in Turkey. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Ugh, I don't have the bandwidth for that right now. I'm fine with this becoming stale. Mason (talk) 22:25, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Smasongarrison: moving it to full will be a brave act. Be ready for opposition, other editors will argue that buildings are currently in Turkey. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- gotcha! Move to full? Mason (talk) 12:32, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Smasongarrison: unfortunately the entire 19th-century architecture by country tree is by 21st-century countries and so are the subcategories. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:34, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:18th-century architecture in the Czech Republic to Category:18th-century architecture in Bohemia – C2C: norm is to call the Czech Republic during this century Bohemia Mason (talk) 02:37, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Similar comment as above. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:36, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Opposed requests
- Category:Yoruba Muslim leaders to Category:Yoruba Muslim clergy – C2C: parent is Muslim clergy Mason (talk) 00:59, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose, not all articles in the category are about clergy. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Move to full? Mason (talk) 12:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Smasongarrison: fair enough, but I would advocate "religious leaders" rather than "clergy" per the other parent category. Religious leaders is broader than clergy. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'd be fine with religious leaders. Mason (talk) 22:26, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Do not we have consensus here? Ymblanter (talk) 21:05, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'd be fine with religious leaders. Mason (talk) 22:26, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Smasongarrison: fair enough, but I would advocate "religious leaders" rather than "clergy" per the other parent category. Religious leaders is broader than clergy. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Move to full? Mason (talk) 12:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose, not all articles in the category are about clergy. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Azure Striker Gunvolt series to Category:Azure Striker Gunvolt – C2F: No need for a separate games category QuantumFoam66 (talk) 02:45, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
- I do not think this is eligible under C2F and probably needs to go though a full discussion. Ymblanter (talk) 05:32, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oops I think I meant the do it other way around. Eh, both categories deserve to get deleted anyway QuantumFoam66 (talk) 20:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- @QuantumFoam66: better nominate them at full CfD then. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:02, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oops I think I meant the do it other way around. Eh, both categories deserve to get deleted anyway QuantumFoam66 (talk) 20:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- I do not think this is eligible under C2F and probably needs to go though a full discussion. Ymblanter (talk) 05:32, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
On hold pending other discussion
- None currently
Moved to full discussion
- Category:United States politicians killed during the Civil War to Category:Politicians killed in the American Civil War - this new name is shorter and less ambiguous, as the category lists both Union and Confederate politicians who died in the ACW. AHI-3000 (talk) 03:10, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- Whereas the argument is compelling, I do not think this is a speedy case. Ymblanter (talk) 21:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Ymblanter: So why is this not suited for speedy renaming? AHI-3000 (talk) 03:26, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- It should satisfy to one of the above criteria, and I can not see which one. Ymblanter (talk) 05:22, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Ymblanter: So why is this not suited for speedy renaming? AHI-3000 (talk) 03:26, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- Moved to full discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Whereas the argument is compelling, I do not think this is a speedy case. Ymblanter (talk) 21:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Rebel princes to Category:Princely rebellions – C2D: Princely rebellion. NLeeuw (talk) 10:23, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose, this is a category of princes, not so much of rebellions. Perhaps split. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:31, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe. Move to full then I guess? NLeeuw (talk) 22:42, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose, this is a category of princes, not so much of rebellions. Perhaps split. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:31, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Neo-Latin writers to Category:Writers in Neo-Latin – C2C: Per all child cats and per parent Category:Writers in Latin by period. NLeeuw (talk) 01:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose This is not very natural language. It is inconsistent with the same level categories "Classical Latin-language writers", "Latin-language writers of late antiquity", "Medieval Latin-language writers", "Old Latin-language writers", and "Renaissance Latin-language writers".
- This is because "Neo-Latin" etc are actually styles, that are associated with a period. Jim Killock (talk) 05:42, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Latin-language writers of late antiquity to Category:Writers of late antiquity in Latin – C2C: Per all child cats and per parent Category:Writers in Latin by period. NLeeuw (talk) 00:57, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Very clumsy sounding Jim Killock (talk) 05:44, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Classical Latin-language writers to Category:Writers in Classical Latin – C2C: Parent Category:Writers in Latin by period. NLeeuw (talk) 00:54, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Very clumsy sounding Jim Killock (talk) 05:44, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Old Latin-language writers to Category:Writers in Old Latin – C2C: Per all child cats and per parent Category:Writers in Latin by period. NLeeuw (talk) 00:44, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Sounds clumsy. Same Jim Killock (talk) 05:43, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Renaissance Latin-language writers to Category:Renaissance writers in Latin – C2C: Per all child cats and per parent Category:Writers in Latin by period. NLeeuw (talk) 00:42, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Sounds weird per others Jim Killock (talk) 05:44, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Medieval Latin-language writers to Category:Medieval writers in Latin – C2C: Per all child cats and per parent Category:Writers in Latin by period. NLeeuw (talk) 00:39, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Same Jim Killock (talk) 05:42, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose Same. These sound weird. Jim Killock (talk) 05:43, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- @JimKillock The parent Category:Writers in Latin by period and grandparent Category:Writers in Latin and other related categories were all renamed by consensus last year: Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 7#Category:Latin-language writers. These are just logical follow-ups to that result. The reason we went for this formula is explained at length in that nom. NLeeuw (talk) 15:49, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- But these are not "by period"; they are "by style". This especially true for Neo-Latin. The periods and styles often coincide, but not precisely. Better would be to follow the styles defined in the articles, so:
- I've explained elsewhere that the periods and styles are not precise. For instance, a writer in the Renaissance may have employed Medieval Latin, or Renaissance Latin; and some may define their Renaissance Latin as Neo-Latin. These are stylistic boundaries which roughly match period, but it is the style, not the period, that determines their classifications. Jim Killock (talk) 19:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- @JimKillock I know. Category:14th-century Neo-Latin writers were a thing; it's good that you created that category. But I don't see how it would create a problem if we renamed it Category:14th-century writers in Neo-Latin. If anything, it is even clearer that "14th-century" refers to "writers" and not to "Neo-Latin", so that we shouldn't assume that the kind of Latin they wrote was Medieval Latin. This is all the more reason in favour of renaming, so that our readers understand the difference between style and period. NLeeuw (talk) 14:03, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- The issue is that the whole category structure is used to amalgamate and conflate these two ideas. I don't have an easy solution to it, that doesn't involve some work. It's reasonable to say that a C12th Medieval Latin writer used Medieval Latin, or a C20th writer uses Neo-Latin. Boundary centuries seem debateable. However, the structure makes an absolute assumption, that century and style are the same, except where I started to break it up. This has come up in two recent discussions, the other being when someone wanted to remove my boundary category. But it's clear that the intention was that Category:Classical Latin-language writers should contain Classical Latin writers, ie be a style category, not a time category. Likewise, Late Latin and Neo-Latin. There can be doubt about medieval Latin because of it seems to refer to a period rather than a style; however as it is a set of style categories we should assume it is about style, likewise for Renaissance Latin. The fact that the categories group information from centuries is a laziness, nothing more. In short it is a mess but it is only made worse by changing the names to appear to refer to time periods, some of which don't really exist (Classical Latin isn't a time, nor is Latin Latin, nor is Neo-Latin).
- Category:Writers in Classical Latin; Category:Writers in Neo-Latin - these all refer to a style; they are acceptable from that perspective, but they sounds strange / clumsy to my ear; the natural way to say is Category:Classical Latin writers, Category:Neo-Latin writers, or as close to that as WP allows.
- Taking one example to show why the suggested formulation can sound wrong. Category:Writers in Old Latin; Old Latin is recognised as a phase of Latin, rather than a "style" of Latin, so a bit different, but it functions the same. It is like Old English, not quite the same as Modern English. So, "writers in Old Latin" doesn't work because You [verb] in [language]; you don't [person] in [language]. It is either People writing in Old Latin or Old Latin writers. So Category:Old Latin writers sounds better, another option would be Category:Writers using Old Latin.
- Category:Renaissance writers in Latin; Category:Medieval writers in Latin - refer to a time period and remove the style names. These would need to be Category:Writers in Renaissance Latin; Category:Writers in Medieval Latin. This is not great English, most natural would be Category:Medieval Latin writers, Category: Renaissance Latin writers
- So there seems to be some inconsistency of approach in the current suggestion, as well as a somewhat clumsy use of "in" that isn't needed.
- It has taken me some time to pinpoint the issue with "in"; but I think it is because language can be either a noun or an adjective. When it is a style, describing how someone writes, "Classical Latin" etc, is an adjective. If "Classical Latin" is an adjective, then "in" shouldn't be used. If "Classical Latin" is a noun, as with "Classical Latin" the topic then "in" is possible, eg "Grammar in Classical Latin", or "They write in Classical Latin". As an adjective, it works as "Classical Latin writers". --Jim Killock (talk) 00:59, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
- I suppose this will have to be moved to full then... NLeeuw (talk) 13:42, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
- @JimKillock I know. Category:14th-century Neo-Latin writers were a thing; it's good that you created that category. But I don't see how it would create a problem if we renamed it Category:14th-century writers in Neo-Latin. If anything, it is even clearer that "14th-century" refers to "writers" and not to "Neo-Latin", so that we shouldn't assume that the kind of Latin they wrote was Medieval Latin. This is all the more reason in favour of renaming, so that our readers understand the difference between style and period. NLeeuw (talk) 14:03, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- @JimKillock The parent Category:Writers in Latin by period and grandparent Category:Writers in Latin and other related categories were all renamed by consensus last year: Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 7#Category:Latin-language writers. These are just logical follow-ups to that result. The reason we went for this formula is explained at length in that nom. NLeeuw (talk) 15:49, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Scholars of Mycenaean Greek to Category:Linguists of Mycenaean Greek – C2C: Uncles/aunts in Category:Linguists by language of study are all named
Linguists of Fooian
. NLeeuw (talk) 20:47, 3 April 2024 (UTC) - Category:Scholars of Medieval Greek to Category:Linguists of Medieval Greek – C2C: Uncles/aunts in Category:Linguists by language of study are all named
Linguists of Fooian
. NLeeuw (talk) 20:46, 3 April 2024 (UTC) - Category:Scholars of Koine Greek to Category:Linguists of Koine Greek – C2C: Uncles/aunts in Category:Linguists by language of study are all named
Linguists of Fooian
. NLeeuw (talk) 20:46, 3 April 2024 (UTC) - Category:Scholars of Ancient Greek to Category:Linguists of Ancient Greek – C2C: Uncles/aunts in Category:Linguists by language of study are all named
Linguists of Fooian
. NLeeuw (talk) 20:45, 3 April 2024 (UTC) - Category:Scholars of Greek language to Category:Linguists of Greek – C2C: Siblings in Category:Linguists by language of study are all named
Linguists of Fooian
. NLeeuw (talk) 20:44, 3 April 2024 (UTC)- Comment Nederlandse Leeuw, I don't think the categories for Scholars of Greek are suitable for speedy renaming as the categories contain a mixture of scholars of Greek language and literature. Also Latin is the other classical language and there is no Category:Linguists of Latin. TSventon (talk) 22:21, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
- @TSventon I discussed thus with @Fayenatic london in another thread (about Category:Grammarians of Persian), he thought it was a good idea. It's virtually impossible to study the literature of a language without also studying the language itself. (I've been studying Old East Slavic as an amateur lately, because I want to write about Rus' chronicles on Wikipedia). Also, Category:Latinists exists; it currently serves the same function as a Category:Linguists of Latin would. NLeeuw (talk) 02:50, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- Nederlandse Leeuw, I have looked at the content of the categories and am suggesting that these categories are not suitable for speedy renaming. I am happy for the CfD admins to accept or reject my argument. Studying the literature of a language generally involves studying the language itself, but some academics focus more on literature and others on liguistic topics and this is reflected in our categories. Category:Latinists exists and has a Greek counterpart, Category:Hellenists. TSventon (talk) 14:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- Okay. I'm not convinced this makes them unsuitable for speedy renaming, but we'll see. Otherwise I'm happy to move to full, although I think it's unnecessary. NLeeuw (talk) 14:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think this kind of discussion is better held at a full CfD than here. Ymblanter (talk) 19:43, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- Okay. I'm not convinced this makes them unsuitable for speedy renaming, but we'll see. Otherwise I'm happy to move to full, although I think it's unnecessary. NLeeuw (talk) 14:24, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- Nederlandse Leeuw, I have looked at the content of the categories and am suggesting that these categories are not suitable for speedy renaming. I am happy for the CfD admins to accept or reject my argument. Studying the literature of a language generally involves studying the language itself, but some academics focus more on literature and others on liguistic topics and this is reflected in our categories. Category:Latinists exists and has a Greek counterpart, Category:Hellenists. TSventon (talk) 14:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- @TSventon I discussed thus with @Fayenatic london in another thread (about Category:Grammarians of Persian), he thought it was a good idea. It's virtually impossible to study the literature of a language without also studying the language itself. (I've been studying Old East Slavic as an amateur lately, because I want to write about Rus' chronicles on Wikipedia). Also, Category:Latinists exists; it currently serves the same function as a Category:Linguists of Latin would. NLeeuw (talk) 02:50, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
- Comment Nederlandse Leeuw, I don't think the categories for Scholars of Greek are suitable for speedy renaming as the categories contain a mixture of scholars of Greek language and literature. Also Latin is the other classical language and there is no Category:Linguists of Latin. TSventon (talk) 22:21, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
PLEASE NOTE: I have moved all of the following Categories here pending adequate confirmation of their eligibility under C2C. I made a serious effort to look for that, but was unable to find such confirmation. There is a massive jumbled welter of Categories in this realm, with no prevailing pattern that I can discern. Anomalous+0 (talk) 07:16, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Anomalous+0, I have linked Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 December 10#Container categories by descent down below; is that not enough? 1234qwer1234qwer4 21:02, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Canadian people by century and ethnic or national origin to Category:Canadian people by century and descent – C2C: Special:Diff/1196829100 1234qwer1234qwer4 22:51, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Canadian musicians by ethnic or national origin to Category:Canadian musicians by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:10, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Canadian people by ethnic or national origin and century to Category:Canadian people by descent and century – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Romanian people by ethnic or national origin and occupation to Category:Romanian people by descent and occupation – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Northern Mariana Islands people by ethnic or national origin to Category:Northern Mariana Islands people by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Malaysian politicians by ethnic or national origin to Category:Malaysian politicians by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:French politicians by ethnic or national origin to Category:French politicians by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Dutch politicians by ethnic or national origin to Category:Dutch politicians by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Transnistrian people by ethnic or national origin to Category:Transnistrian people by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:East German people by ethnic or national origin to Category:East German people by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Filipino politicians by ethnic or national origin to Category:Filipino politicians by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:06, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Middle Eastern people by ethnic or national origin to Category:Middle Eastern people by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:06, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Moldovan politicians by ethnic or national origin to Category:Moldovan politicians by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:06, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Cebuano people by ethnic or national origin to Category:Cebuano people by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:06, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Indonesian politicians by ethnic or national origin to Category:Indonesian politicians by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:05, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Romanian politicians by ethnic or national origin to Category:Romanian politicians by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:03, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Canadian writers by ethnic or national origin to Category:Canadian writers by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:01, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:Canadian families by ethnic or national origin to Category:Canadian families by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Category:British writers by ethnic or national origin to Category:British writers by descent – C2C. 1234qwer1234qwer4 17:55, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose for now to all by ethnic or national origin nominations. 46.229.243.187 (talk) 08:35, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Your opposition needs to have a reason. Mason (talk) 13:55, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- The existing wording sounds more natural and is easier to understand. 46.229.243.187 (talk) 14:34, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Moved to full discussion:
- Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_March_30#Category:English_people_by_ethnic_or_national_origin
- Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_April_9#Category:Swedish_politicians_by_ethnic_or_national_origin
- Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_April_27#British_people_by_descent
- Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_May_6#Actors_by_ethnicity
- Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_May_7#People_from_British_Overseas_Territories_and_Crown_Dependencies_by_ethnic_or_national_origin
- Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_May_8#People_from_Overseas_France_by_ethnic_or_national_origin
- Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_May_9#Caribbean_people_by_descent
- Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_May_17#Category:Romanian_people_by_ethnic_or_national_origin_and_occupation
- Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_May_17#Category:Northern_Mariana_Islands_people_by_ethnic_or_national_origin
- Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_May_17#Category:East_German_people_by_ethnic_or_national_origin
- Marcocapelle (talk) 06:53, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- The English one was closed as Rename. – Fayenatic London 12:11, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- Except in the United States, the "by descent" format seems to be standard everywhere. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose for now to all by ethnic or national origin nominations. 46.229.243.187 (talk) 08:35, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
Ready for deletion
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